One huge problem with our public school system,

[MadHound]

I was listening to local news this morning, and the college town near where I live is having three school board spots coming open. There is a list of six candidates that they reported on, and again it struck me, not one of these candidate has any sort of education experience. One is a Christian conservative housewife, one is getting her doctoral degree in a health related field, and one has a career of doing odd jobs and is currently unemployed. The three incumbents are no better, since one is a lawyer, and the other two are businessmen.

This pattern has been repeated throughout the country, with our school boards dominated by people who have no experience in education. Worse yet, we've seen our public schools pillaged over the past thirty years by ideologically driven candidates of the rabid Christian right. Even at upper levels of our education system, positions are filled by, policies are presented by and acted upon by people who are driven either by other agendas, or simply don't have any sort of education experience.

This is true even at the Federal level, one but has to take a look at our current Sec of Ed. Arne Duncan, a man whose career isn't in education, per se, but rather devoted to turning public schools into private schools. We see this same effect on a wider school as "well meaning critics" such as Gates and Rhee, who again, have no experience in education, but are still trying to change it.

Would we entrust the administration of a hospital waiting room to a mechanic? Would we entrust the flying of our plane to Lance Armstrong? Would we entrust the command of our military to Pat Robertson? Of course not, yet it is common, to the point of absurdity, to entrust the welfare of our children's education to people who have no experience in education, and even better, are driven by agenda's that are antithetical to education.

Why? Why do we pursue this sort of mad policy designed to harm education?

It is time that we stopped using education as some sort of political football, or as a platform for somebody's personal agenda. If you want real change in education, let's start by putting the power of policy decisions into the hands of actual educators. The Secretary of Education should actually be a former teacher, as should school board members and state education board members. Otherwise, education in this country will be just as improved as your car is after a baker rebuilds the engine.

[SheilaT]

1. You get what you pay for.

In most places I'm not sure the local school board members get any pay. I did a quick google search for the school board in my city, which is likewise electing three members this year, but couldn't find anything.

It seems as if in many places the main perceived requirement is to have children in the public school system.

[MadHound]

2. I know that my local school board members are paid a salary,

As are most members of most school boards, even if it is just a stipend(which is common in rural school districts).

But even in areas that are unpaid, like volunteer fire departments, the top spots are filled by people who have actual experience fighting fires.

But with schools, no experience in education is required, and I've seen many politically driven school board members who have never had a child, much less one in school.

[WinkyDink]

39. I would like a link. AFAIK, most SB members are volunteers, no pay,

[Obamanaut]

63. Board members in my county also get a salary. nt

[Drale]

3. exactly it is a ton of work for little or in most cases no pay

[BonnieJW]

4. Michelle Rhee certainly has education experience.

A Christian housewife is closer to the situation than a businessman. I think any parent, no matter what their vocation, would be good on a school board. I don't have to be an educator to know that my kids' schools is screwed up.

[MadHound]

9. OK, but do you know how to fix it?

Do you know the various learning styles of students? Do you know you know how to effectively teach students? Do you know the value of various extracurricular activities, or why art is so important to students? I could continue on and on with these questions, but my point is, not to belittle you being a parent, but you simply don't have the theoretical or practical background as a parent to make these kinds of decisions.

As far as Michelle Rhee goes, her degrees are in government, not education, and her teaching experience is limited to three years as a Teach for America recruit, a member of an organization that is dedicated to putting unqualified teachers in the classroom.

Teaching isn't simply about getting kids to pay attention and then lecturing to them all day. It is much more involved and nuanced than that. That is why teachers attend college, and take a course of study that is more involved, with a heavier work load, than almost any other college curricula. To learn things like ed psych, to learn the basic underpinnings of teaching. Parents bring little but the experience that they've had in school, and the experience that their kids have had in school. This is a very limited perspective and damaging for many school districts.

Again, would you put an interior designer on the board of your fire department?

[MineralMan]

5. Good luck with changing the way school boards operate.

Since the schools are paid for through local tax dollars in most jurisdictions, school boards are populated by elections. It's called representation and the taxpayers are not going to give up that control. If educators want to be on school boards, then they need to run for those positions. Normally, the school board is advised by the head administrator of the district. School boards don't always listen to that person, however, and communications are often poor between administrators and boards. Often, the discussion is adversarial, rather than cooperative.

I think you'll find that the taxpayers of any school district are going to be solidly opposed to control of the education budget by those who benefit from that budget. The voters want to keep a tight rein on their tax dollars. If you want better representation on the school board, then educators need to run for seats on it. It's that simple.

Of course, there's the problem of conflict of interest when people sitting on a board are deciding on matters involving the pay for themselves. What that means is that it's best for retired educators to run for these positions. The voters are very aware of conflict of interest issues.

When your goal is to remove the funders and consumers of education from control, you're going to be in for a very, very tough battle. Odds are you will lose that battle.

[MadHound]

11. Except that in many places, teachers who are active can't run for the school board,

And there are many places that teachers who have retired from the district are prohibited from being on the school board.

As far as funding issues go, that is a whole other can of worms that needs to be addressed. Tying school budgets to the whim of a supermajority of voters is asinine and insane, and again, something that only happens with schools. Do we require a supermajority of voters to raise the budget of police departments? No, but that is standard practice in school districts across the country.

[MineralMan]

13. That's true. There's a reason for it, too. School boards are about

money, for the most part, in most jurisdictions. Sometimes they meddle in other areas, but it's the money. The reason for the rules against current or retired teachers from that district are conflict of interest rules. There is, in actual fact, a real conflict of interest when employees are setting their own payment.

So, that's why educators are usually not on school boards. If they run, they're often defeated by non-educators. It's a matter of taxpayer representation, which is at the foundation of our system of government.

Does this create problems? Yes. Of course it does. Do educators, themselves, sometimes create problems in our schools. Yes, of course they do. No system is ideal.

School boards control the checkbook. That's their main function. Schools are paid for in the main by people who live, work, and own or rent property in the district. They will continue to insist on having control of the checkbook. Nothing will convince anyone to change that, I guarantee. You'll have to find some other solution.

You know, though, that there is one type of school that does not have this problem. Private schools. They're not funded by tax dollars, so they may do as they please. That's about the only solution to the school board problem.

[MadHound]

14. Do we put the money decisions regarding police and fire departments in hands of the inexperienced?

No, we don't. So why do we do so with education?

Allowing those who have no experience in education making vital decisions regarding the budget of a school district is a recipe for disaster. Let's just cut art and music, completely oblivious as to how those subjects positively effect students in other areas of study. This is what happens time and again when you let the inexperience make such vital decisions.

Yes, this is the way it is now, but it is certainly not the best way to run things. In fact it is one of the worst ways, and despite whatever nod to democratic principle we want to give in our country, to do so at the expense of our students is utterly foolish.

[MineralMan]

36. Actually, we do. Fire and police budgets are set by the

city council, usually. It's very rare that anyone connected with fire or police sits on a city council. Typically city council members are business people, often with real estate or legal experience. They know nothing about fire protection or police work. They rely on their police chief or fire chief to inform them of the departments' needs. That's very similar to the District School Administrator advising the school board.

I agree with you that things are not run best by this system. However, if you think that system can be changed, you're very mistaken. To change it would require a vote of the very people who vote for the school board. They will not willingly give up the purse strings for their tax dollars. We fought a revolution that founded this country on the principle of taxation WITH representation.

Believing that the very system itself can be changed is sure to lead to disappointment. It cannot, frankly.

[MadHound]

41. Oh, well then, damn it all, we should by all means stick with what we've got then,

After all, the Founding Fathers couldn't change a thing either in regards to England. Neither could the unions, liberals and leftists in this country. We should just give up, lay back and accept it:eyes:

[MineralMan]

54. The thing is that you're saying things that aren't actually

correct. Like your statement that police and fire department budgets are not set by people who don't have experience in those fields. That's patently incorrect. If you don't have the basics right, how are you going to change anything, after all? Are there not professional administrators for most school districts, just as there are professional police and fire chiefs in their jurisdictions?

You say that the wrong people are being elected to school boards. In many cases, you're correct. So, what is the answer to that problem? Is it not to convince people who have the experience you're looking for run for the school board? Why do they not? Why do not the educators seek out and find people to run, then support them and get them elected?

If you don't like the people on the school board, the answer is to find the right people to run for those positions, and work to get them elected. Simply complaining about what the ones who do get elected do is not an answer - it's just a complaint.

You want to do something, but you don't suggest something to do. You don't like the current situation, but you don't suggest a way it can actually be changed. Where do you suppose that change is going to come from? How do you plan to change it? What are your ideas? Currently, elected school boards are mandated by law in most states. How do you propose to change that?

Like you, I can point out many ways our schools fail to educate the children of this country. My explanations for the reasons may be different from yours in some respects. I do not have a degree in education, but I've been educating people most of my life, both in the classroom and in my writing. I do know how it works, and I'm good at it, too.

You're a teacher, I assume. Are your students succeeding? Are you teaching them effectively? If so, then mentoring teachers who are not doing such a good job would be a better use of your time than complaining about a system without having any plan for how to change it. There are students in classroooms today. They need to be educated. If that is not happening, then it's up to today's educators to find ways to educate them, despite whatever hardships teachers encounter.

Is your school out of session today?

[cali]

57. of course we put the money decisions re police and fire departments

in the hands of the "inexperienced". At least we do here.

[FBaggins]

59. Virtually every county does it that way.

The OP suffers from a common logical falacy. Assume that what you say is correct... and then further assume that any fact which would demonstrate the correctness of your position must be true.

You wish to clam that "B" is true so you posit "if A then B" and just assume that everyone knows that A is true. (You "know" it because you "know" that B is true).

This, of course, only serves to undermine your position when most of your audience knows that "not A" is true.

It's also known as being "hoist by one's own petard". :)

[MineralMan]

60. A failure of critical thinking, I believe...

It's no wonder we're having such a problem in our colleges.

[FBaggins]

61. I'm sure that MH is an exceptional teacher.

First of all... while I disagree with him on this issue (and almost certainly others), it's clear that he has a passion for these kids. That's not a universal trait among teachers and (IMO) it makes a big difference.

Just as excelling at the teaching profession does not necessarily give one great insight into overall education policy, a blind spot in this area does not mean that his students won't succeed in college. In my experience, passion for the students' success "overcomes a multitude of sins".

Unless he teaches a logic course I suppose. :)

I don't know whether I would vote for him for school board... but I think that I'd be happy with him teaching my kids. As someone who finds the subject to be of such importance that he teaches his own kids... that should mean something.

[MineralMan]

62. That's entirely possible. I have no information on the subject,

though.

[surrealAmerican]

6. It's up to you, as a voter, not to vote for ...

... people who aren't qualified.

There is some value in having school boards elected by the voters, but it does require that voters make their decisions in a manner that takes the candidates' qualifications into account.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. In my small town 40 years ago, my mother became the second woman to ever

serve on the Board of Education, the first to be president. She was appointed because she was one of the few residents who had a masters degree in education.

She found it more challenging to work with her compatriots than to say, negotiate new teachers' contracts. There was the trustee whose credo was "the one who shouts louder, wins the argument". There were other trustees who didn't want to subsidize a remedial reading program, but rather allocate the same funds to laundering the used football jerseys of the high school team so their mothers didn't have to do it. She was challenged by the superintendent, the various school administrators, the teachers, etc. for more than a dozen years. Many times she'd come home from Board meetings at 4 a.m. And she never paused to speak her mind, no matter how it was received.

Yes, it IS hard to "find good help" for public education.

[TreasonousBastard]

8. This is America, where patients know more than doctors...

parents know more than teachers, and everyone knows more than lawyers.

(Until you get sick, try to help with the homework, or find your ass in court.)

I don't know when it started, but school board elections are the weird stepchild of elections-- rarely held on Election Day and the results called by someone other than the state or local election authorities. Turnout is therefore ridiculously low and I've seen too many districts where the results depend largely on how many friends and family you can get to vote for you.

What I've never seen, in places where I've lived, is a debate over curricula-- that's far too complicated to discuss even in areas not controlled by state law. The discussions, such as they are, are centered around the budget or some personality issues.

(In spite of all that, public schools still usually manage to do the job.)

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. I'm sorry but you are incorrect. Michelle Rhee does have experience in education

She was a teacher in Baltimore.

[MadHound]

12. Yes, a Teach for America recruit for three years,

With absolutely no college work in education. Her college degrees aren't in education, but rather in government.

So not only is she an inexperienced education pundit, but she was an ill prepared teacher who did a great disservice to her students.

There is a reason why most places require that teachers graduate from a four year accredited college, to learn the basic underpinnings of teaching.

[Freddie Stubbs]

16. So, learning about teaching in college is more relevent that actually teaching in the classroom?

[MadHound]

20. No, but hey, thanks for trying to stuff words in my mouth.

Learning about the basics of teaching in college is immensely important, you learn things that you can, and do, apply to teaching.

And again, Teach for America is a joke, taking unqualified people and putting them in teaching positions is, and has been, a sure recipe for disaster. If you don't know those basics that you were supposed to pick up in college, like Bloom's taxonomy, Gardener's MI, etc. etc., then how are you going to even have a clue about how to effectively apply them in a classroom?

[FBaggins]

18. TFA's goals appear to run parallel to your own.

Their stated mission is to get teachers into the public arena.

You just approach the subject in different directions... and both have weaknesses.

Their process is to get the people with the kinds of resumes that can win elections... and place them in the classroom. So that when they attain positions of influence, they'll have that classroom experience that decision-makers too-often lack.

Your process (presumably) is to get more teachers elected to positions of influence. The problem there is that most don't have the resume to get elected... and, of course, most of the best want to be in the classroom, not the boardroom.

[MadHound]

21. Wow, you are grossly misrepresenting the purpose of TFA,

Both their stated purpose, and their actual purpose. TFA recruits are the front line troops for breaking down teacher's unions and dumbing down our students. Putting an unqualified TFA recruit in a classroom, somebody who doesn't know Bandura from a BandAid, is doing a huge disservice to our students.

But it does lower the wage scale of a district, and encourages the notion that anybody, just anybody, can be a teacher.

[FBaggins]

26. Compare your post to mine.

And no, I have no interest in defending TFA.

You just claimed that their stated purpose is to break down the teacher's unions and dumb down our students.

Please provide that statement.

It may very well be the effect they have, but what I posted was far closer to correct.

[MadHound]

28. Look at the results,

Look at how TFA is used, what it is being used for.

The stated purpose of the US Army is "This We'll Defend", but they've been engaged in wars for empire for over fifty years now. Reality vs a stated purpose, two entirely different things, and if you refuse to deal in reality, well, your view of the world is grossly, perhaps fatally distorted.

So yes, technically you're correct. But practically, dealing in reality, you're grossly wrong.

[FBaggins]

15. This isn't limited to education.

Your examples (pilots/hospital administrators/etc) aren't parallels to the situation you post about. The people who write the laws that regulate business are more likely to be lawyers than people who have managed a business. The ones who own hospitals (or write the laws that govern them) aren't usually doctors. The people who write energy policy are not always climate scientists or utility workers. Corporations answer to boards of directors that are made up of shareholder representatives... often from very different fields than the companies that they oversee.

It is time that we stopped using education as some sort of political football,

There's no possible way to avoid that. At the local/county level, education is (almost always by FAR) the largest budgetary item. In many cases, that spending actually exceeds the total tax revenue for the county. There's no way that we can remove political considerations from that function which is the single largest portion of what the local government exists to provide.

Of course, that's even before we talk about the importance of education itself... and of the topics we elect to teach (and how we present them). This will always be a battleground.

[MadHound]

17. No, but it is especially prevalent in education

Most police and fire department boards have more than one representative of that profession on their boards. Most hospital boards have more than one doctor. But educators are forbidden by law in most cases from serving on school boards.

No, we can't remove all political considerations entirely, but we certainly can minimize them. Two good ways to start, first by putting actual educators on the school board. Second, stripping the requirement that a school bond must get a supermajority in order to pass.

[cali]

19. sorry, I believe in citizen school boards

and I don't think it's necessary that every member of a school board be an educators- oh and in my town the school board functions quite well.

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. +1 n/t

[MadHound]

23. So we can pack your school board with fundie RWer's?

Would you even consider having the head of your local fire department be somebody other than a firefighter?

Would you consider putting golf pro's in the tower of the airport that you take off and land at?

Then why in the hell do you think it is a good idea to put inexperienced and untrained people in the position of making vital decisions about our schools and students? Are our kids just as important as fire protection? Then why not start treating them, and the schools, in that manner rather than as a political football to be kicked around in the name of local democracy.

[FBaggins]

27. Are you saying that RWers are the only true "citizens"?

Would you even consider having the head of your local fire department be somebody other than a firefighter?

Non-sequitur. The board which sets policies/budgets/etc for your local fire department is not made up of firefighters. In most cases, they don't include a single one.

Would you consider putting golf pro's in the tower of the airport that you take off and land at?

The people who set the budget for the airport and the regulations that govern it are almost never air traffic controllers.

[MadHound]

31. No, but they are the ones who have taken over a lot of school boards,

And while I don't know where you're from, where I'm from, the police and fire boards are filled with either police or firefighters.

But hey, let's continue to put inexperienced, unqualified people on school boards, so they can continue to wreak havoc on our school systems. After all, this is a practice that started thirty, forty years ago, and it has worked sooooo well now, hasn't it.:eyes:

Let me ask you this. If a budget required you, as a school board member, to make a decision about whether to cut art classes or small engine classes, could you make an informed decision? Would you even know where to go in order to make such an informed decision?

Sure, for this hypothetical exercise, you will probably answer yes, but the trouble is most school board's answer is no, they have no clue as to the importance of art or music, not just as stand alone subjects, but also their effect on other subjects.

So again, would you put a plumber in as head of your fire dept board? That's what we're doing now with school boards, and it isn't working.

[FBaggins]

37. Police and fire boards are not all that common... and where they exist,

they aren't the equivalent of a school board.

The county board of supervisors (or the equivalent) is the body with comparable authority… and while they make budget and policy decisions for police/fire/rescue… they rarely include people with front-line experience in any of those areas.

Take one of the largest (Chicago). It's not an elected body, but an appointed one. Their primary roles "include deciding disciplinary matters involving police officers and nominating candidates for Superintendent of Police to the Mayor."

Yippee. They don't set budgets or policy. Just internal rules and procedures.

Oh... and I don't know that any of them are firefighters. One is a lawyer... one a pastor... one an attorney for an insurance company... a few are president/partner of some company.

But hey, let's continue to put inexperienced, unqualified people on school boards

You keep making that mistake. Lots of line employees think that they know how to run the company, but that doesn't make it so. You could be the best 7th grade English teacher in the world, but that doesn't make you qualified to set the K-12 History curriculum for a county. Knowing how to transfer knowledge doesn't give you much special insight into what knowledge (at a curriculum level) should be included (including subject areas that you've never acquired, let along taught). It certainly doesn't give you any skills are working a budget or financing by far the largest expense in local government.

Being a teacher in an incredibly important thing... and a very noble calling. It does not make you qualified to run a county school system. The skill sets barely overlap.

Let me ask you this. If a budget required you, as a school board member, to make a decision about whether to cut art classes or small engine classes, could you make an informed decision?

Every bit as well as the retired Spanish teacher could.

So again, would you put a plumber in as head of your fire dept board?

Nope... but neither would your average electorate. But they very well might pick someone who knew how to write a budget over someone who knew how to put out a fire.

It's really much simpler than you've tried to make it. Take a look at any well-written job description and you can identify the skill sets that are essential for a given position. The skill set to be an effective CEO doesn't usually overlap the skill set of the office manager or the mechanic... even if they run a company that employs both.

The things that a school board does from week to week really don't overlap much with the things that a 5th grade teacher does from day to day. The teacher can easily spot decisions that he doesn't like (and will often be correct), but that doesn't mean that he's the better man for the job.

IOW... you probably DO need a lawyer with a degree in government in there somewhere... you just need to pick a better one than the one making the decisions that "wreak havoc" today.

[MadHound]

38. Wow, thank you.

In the space of one, long post, you have demonstrated the entire range of problems associated with having "layfolks" in charge of our education system.

You compare teachers to factory workers, you assume that they haven't learned, either through ongoing, continuing education or hard experience, what is best for a school district, you show your complete ignorance of how education on a local, state and national level works, and continue to wrap this up in a wrapping of democracy, while pointing out that many other "mission critical" services come nowhere close to approaching democracy.

It is pointless to continue this discussion with you, because you simply don't have the referent points with which to make an unbiased judgment.

My suggestion, go do some research on education. The requirements that a student has to take in order to become a teacher, do some research on education psychology, child development, curriculum development, etc. etc.

And finally, ask yourself, what other professional, doctor, lawyer, mechanic, whose opinion you would question as though you, the layman, actually knew better.

Then perhaps we can talk.

Bye:hi:

[FBaggins]

44. And what made you think that I was a "lay folk"?

You compare teachers to factory workers

Nope. I compared the people who DO the work with the people who manage and/or govern that work. The industry is almost irrelevant.

you assume that they haven't learned, either through ongoing, continuing education or hard experience, what is best for a school district,

It's not an "assumption", it's a fact.

Rather than debate it to death, I'll ask a simple question. Should the school board be made up of principals instead? Why or why not?

while pointing out that many other "mission critical" services come nowhere close to approaching democracy.

Where have a pointed that out? What I did do was correct your misperception that other governing bodies of essential county services were filled with people who had careers in that field. You were wrong. The elected officials who set budgets, decide building and financing priorities, etc... are not drawn from the fire/police/rescue workers.

My suggestion, go do some research on education.

I dare say that I have a great deal more experience in the area than you do.

Your argument really boils down to the same thing the RWers use for higher levels of government. No doubt you agree that the President is the wrong man to set public policy regarding businesses... since he has no experience running (or even working for) a private business? Yes... it's a ridiculous argument... but it's your argument.

[MadHound]

47. Because you talk, think and make proposals like one.

Tell me then, what is your great experience in education. Do you have any degrees in education? Do you have any experience in actually teaching in a classroom. C'mon, I've got two education degrees and time in the classroom, what do you have?

[FBaggins]

51. Multiple degrees and many years in the classroom

followed by many years of curriculum design.

Were you dodging my question or did you think that I wouldn't notice?

Should school boards be made up of principals... yes or no (and why)?

On edit... the degrees are not in education. I didn't notice that about your question.

[FBaggins]

53. Second question

while you're dodging the first :)

Assuming that you got your masters degree in education... did your school also offer postgraduate degrees in Educational Policy Studies and/or Educational Leadership and Policy Analysis? History, Philosophy & Comparative Education or similar?

Ever wonder why they're there if it's really all the same thing?

Oh I know... you just pick this stuff up around the water cooler. Spend enough time around students and others in the same environment... and of course you'll naturally pick up how to read population trends to determine where and when to build the next elementary school in your county... and how to pay for it. It's really the same thing as managing a classroom full of different learning styles.

I tell you what. If you want to fix school boards... find someone with the actual job skills who is supported by the local union and vote for her. Don't assume that the teller knows how to run the bank... or the plumber knows how to run the plumbing company... or the lawyer knows how to manage a large law partnership... or the engineer knows how to run the engineering firm (or, for that matter, that a police/fire professional knows how to manage a county's emergency response teams).

[MineralMan]

58. I believe you missed some points in the post to which you're

replying. Perhaps you should reread it, then use your critical thinking skills to help you understand it better. As you've learned, the person you're addressing is not a lay person. You've demanded someone's credentials without providing your own, as well. I'm finding a good deal of logical fuzziness in your approach to this situation. Perhaps that's the place to start...

[cali]

34. my local fire department, like most in the state, is all volunteer

And yes citizens can and should be involved in local governance. I just want you and people like you to stay the hell out of Vermont.

[MadHound]

40. And thank you for demonstrating what one of the major problems is with "democratically" run schools

Again, let me ask, would you put a golf pro in charge of your volunteer fire department?

People like you assume that the people know best when it comes to schools. Never mind that you don't apply this same criteria when it comes to police, fire, city managers, city bureaucracies, you just want to be able to get your hands on the school system and do what you will with it. That's fine, if the people are benign and looking out for the best interest of students. But the problem is a lot of people aren't benign, and they want to advance their political or social agenda through the schools. Look at Kansas. But despite this, despite the failure of this, you still want to continue the same ol' same ol, in hopes of getting a different result.

By some definitions, that's insanity.

[cali]

55. sure, I'd put a golf pro in charge of my volunteer fire dept, as long

as he had the most expertise of any of the other volunteers.

And yes, I do apply the same criteria to all other of my local bureaucracies. And sorry, but my little town does quite well supporting its schools- as does my state by and large. And this is a state where local governance is big- town meetings decide a lot of funding and issues.

you want the so-called experts to run everything- by that criteria, only banksters should make regulations about banking.

sick. And you demonstrate why people like you don't belong in Vermont. do stay out. you don't deserve a Bernie representing you.-

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. The head of the local fire department is the mayor.

He's not a firefighter.

In my little town, the firefighters got pissed at the city council for running their department like every other public service. They campaigned "vote for us if you want an ambulance to show up when you call", won, and promptly screwed the pooch.

They all quit after one term, but the damage was done.

Citizen governance is better.

[Taitertots]

24. So, you think Democracy is the problem?

Why don't you just blame the teachers for refusing to step up and run for your school board seats?


"Would we entrust the administration of a hospital waiting room to a mechanic? Would we entrust the flying of our plane to Lance Armstrong? Would we entrust the command of our military to Pat Robertson?"
But you want to trust the administration of the schools to people who have no experience in administration. Seems to me that an administrator trying to be a teacher makes about as much sense as a teacher trying to be an administrator.

[MadHound]

25. Because, in most school districts, including my own, and probably yours as well,

Teachers and school administrators, both active and in many cases retired, are barred by law from running for the school board, conflict of interest.

But hey, it's OK for some fundy bumpkin to run, win and impose their twisted idea of "education" upon the school district.

Oh, and do you think that it is democratic to require that school bonds, and only school bonds, to get a supermajority in order to pass? You want to know why school districts are underfunded, that's a big part of the problem, that supermajority requirement.

[Taitertots]

29. I have no problem with communities deciding what levels to fund education

Even when I believe those communities are not funding it enough.

When the majority of the community is fundy bumpkins than it is OK.

[MadHound]

32. Way to write off the future generations

I hope that you are in no way ever responsible for education, students, or sit on a school board. Your vicious disregard for kids, for students, all to make a political point, is part of the problem we're having today.

Thank you for so amply demonstrating my point. Congratulations, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[Taitertots]

35. I believe in Democracy and not Authoritarianism

Seems like you are quite the problem if you think you get to dominate their political process. It is their rights to determine this, whether or not you think it benefits the children.

My disregard for students pales in comparison to your disregard for democracy, self determination, and community organization.

[MadHound]

43. First of all, if you think that we have or do live in anything approaching a true democracy,

You are simply exhibiting the shortcomings of your own education. I suggest that you rectify that, go read the Anti-Federalist papers, go read the actual notes of the Constitutional Convention, the writings of John Adams, Hamilton, and others in regards to the "mobacracy" as democracy was referred to. If you want to take a short cut and not deal with primary sources, then I suggest Howard Zinn's People's History of the US.

But that aside, if you are so hot on democracy, then why not insist on voting in fire boards, police boards, the Board of Regents at publicly funded universities? Why not vote on city managers, fire chiefs, the head of Water and Light? Why this insistence on the mythical pure democracy when it comes to schools, but ignore that same mythical pure democracy when it comes to other local positions in city and state bureaucracy?

[cali]

56. why yes, the state of Vermont is very much a functioning democracy

just keep your authoritarian dog shit out of it.

[Taitertots]

64. Arguing the semantics

I don't care what the Founding Fathers opinions about it were. They were a bunch of asshole bigots. "Mobocracy" to them was poor people, non-christians, minorities, and women being able to determine the course of the nation. I've read Zinn's people's history, he seems to agree with my opinions of the Founding Fathers without directly stating that they were assholes.


The people should have more direct involvement in all those civic duties. It is the highest form of tyranny to have decisions made by people who are not responsible to the people that are effected by those decisions.

"Why this insistence on the mythical pure democracy when it comes to schools, but ignore that same mythical pure democracy when it comes to other local positions in city and state bureaucracy?"
Why this insistence on straw man arguments? My position on electing school boards is no more pure democracy than the system that you advocate.

[FBaggins]

33. Can you give an example where retired teachers are barred?

Restricting an active teacher from so serving makes sense... it is a clear conflict of interest. But I'm not aware of any restriction on electing someone with a teaching background. More than one representative on our local board is a retired teacher.

Oh, and do you think that it is democratic to require that school bonds, and only school bonds, to get a supermajority in order to pass?

If such a restriction was passed under a democratic process, yes. There's a difference between decisions that are "democratic" and those that are correct. Democracies make mistakes all the time.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

30. I fully agree, MadHound. Under our current system, local control is THE problem

Note that college towns invariably have good schools. Why? Because the parents are themselves educators, they see the products of public schools, and they WANT their children to be well-informed, critical thinkers.

But your average American community is full of anti-intellectual types who think that education is nothing more than job training or indoctrination. You get a professional athlete on your school board (as happened when I was in high school), and you will have state-of-the-art gym equipment and a half-assed curriculum. You get a fundie on the school board, and the science teachers will be afraid of presenting evolution or sex education. You get some local employer of low-skilled workers on the school board, and he will maintain that "our kids don't need to know advanced math or foreign languages." Get a racist and/or economic elitist on the school board, and he will make sure that the schools attended by children of color fail. Get a Libertarian on the school board, and he will try to get charter school contracts for his buddies.

It is such a crapshoot.

A few years ago, the New York Times carried a somewhat snide article about a small town in Japan that had very few children and still had a fully-equipped elementary school that taught the national curriculum. Imagine, those silly Japanese thought that children in some rural podunk should have the same educational opportunities as children in the more affluent suburbs of Tokyo!

National curricula can be too rigid. It shows up in Japan on the secondary level, where the exam system funnels kids who really can't hack it academically into low-ranking high schools where they go through the motions of taking English and advanced math. But if a Japanese teen is floundering academically, it's NOT because he or she had poor schooling on the elementary level.

[MicaelS]

42. Will never, ever, EVER happen...

As long as school districts are funded by local property taxes. The idea that citizens should pay taxes and NOT be allowed a voice in how their taxes are spent is anathema to everything America stands for. The idea of taxes without representation was the impetus behind why we fought the American revolution.

While you think you have the best intentions, in your case the old adage about the road to hell being paved with the best intentions applies to your idea. Yours is simply an Authoritarian position. From the Left, but still Authoritarian. You think you know whats best for everyone else out there, and most Americans simply will not stand for that. If you want to know WHY the Left is in decline in many places, it is attitudes like yours that help that decline because it alienates Americans.

And frankly, the reason that many voters don't vote more money for education is because they believe all it is doing is going into the pockets of the Teacher's Unions. And many people really hate Teacher's Unions. As one acquaintance stated to me about teachers..."You know, teachers all keep saying they put the interest of their students first, well I think that is a pack of lies. What they really put first is their own self-interest, and their own pocketbook. Otherwise they wouldn't fight so hard for their Union, their tenure, and against any change."

Now, having said all that, I'm in favor of professionals running education, as long as the burden of funding schools is completely removed from property taxes, and is funded strictly by the Federal Government through income taxes. Any teacher has to have an actual degree in what the subject they are teaching, and not simply an Education degree. And there will be checks and balances on Teachers, and their Unions. I'm not willing to write anyone a blank check, no matter how well intentioned they might be.

[MadHound]

46. Oh yes, that all powerful Teacher's Union,

Which is, in most cases powerless from putting up a major fight because, by law, they are barred from striking. That all powerful Teacher's Union, whose insistence on tenure doesn't mean a job for life, but rather simply insists on a teacher getting a fair hearing before they are fired. That all, all powerful Teacher's Union.

Sorry, but people have fallen for the union demonization hook line and sinker. Yes, teacher's unions do put teachers first, d'uh, they are a union, that is what unions do, put the interest of their members first. But you would be hard pressed to find a teacher who doesn't put their students first. One has but to look at the teachers who stay after school, take work home, pay for supplies and other student necessities out of their own pocket in order to see that most teachers put their kids first.

As far as paying taxes and not getting democratic representation, well, we see that all the time at all levels of local and state government. The City Manager isn't elected, but he generally has more power than the Mayor. Likewise the boards for several public, tax funded entities are appointed, not elected, yet nobody complains.

But schools, schools are the one thing that people like to play political football with, and it is the one service that shouldn't be used as such a football.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

50. And like opponents of gay marriage, they never document the MECHANISM by which

the teachers' unions are supposed to be solely responsible for problems with American education.

Teachers don't suddenly turn bad for no reason. If they're truly hopeless. the time to take care of that is BEFORE they have tenure. If a tenured teacher starts losing it, it may be because of health problems or outside stresses. They need SUPPORT, not condemnation.

I had a couple of rough years, and it was because I was suffering from undiagnosed depression. With therapy and meds, I started getting good ratings again.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. Schools exist for the citizens of the district.

They are there for the benefit of the citizens of the district. They pay the bills, they should have a governance role in the district's operation.

[hobbit709]

49. Mark Twain's statement about school boards holds true.

[yawnmaster]

52. I think it's fine for communities to govern their local school system. eom

[4_TN_TITANS]

65. I personally would have tapped the prez of the NEA for Ed. Sec.

Arne who?