Child Pornography in America

[Ripley]

I posted this in another thread I started (with a hopeful title) but thought it should be seen on it's own.



The map above is an actual law enforcement map, introduced as evidence before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee in April, 2008. It shows the approximate locations of about 300,000 unique computers identified by law enforcement trafficking in the most brutal and violent child pornography movies and images. Research shows that 1 in 3 of these suspects is also a hands-on offender, with local child victims.

http://www.protect.org/component/content/article/808

No damned excuses for covering this shit up. By ANYONE.

[BlueIris]

1. Jesus Christ. That is horrifying. nt

[Spazito]

2. I am glad you made this a stand alone OP....

it certainly warrants it. "No damned excuses for covering this shit up. By ANYONE."

Exactly.

Recommended.

[seabeyond]

3. i am so embarassed. i did not read your Op well enough in the other thread. horrible

it all feeds.... and the normalization and mainstreaming only feeds it more.

[Ripley]

5. You got that right.

The big picture seems to be so difficult for some people eh? Or maybe they don't want to see.

"Soft" pedophilia has been in vogue for awhile but the limits keep being pushed.

It's epidemic.

[seabeyond]

7. god no, they dont want to see. might have to take a little personal responsibility

just like that coach taking a tad bet of responsibility. as a FUCKIN human being. he was so much more important than children.

[Odin2005]

15. I am horrifed when I see 10yo girls dressed up like hookers.

[mzteris]

34. or younger.........

why would you let your little girl dress up like a tramp?

Little girls should be LITTLE GIRLS - not mini prostitutes. Not women in miniature. LITTLE GIRLS. To be nurtured and cared for. Not used and abused.

[LetTimmySmoke]

67. I'm a 6th and 8th grade teacher..

...and in my experience the students don't dress like that nearly as often as people think.

[Initech]

69. You mean like the "Toddlers & Tiaras" show? Oh man that is disturbing...

:scared:

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mzmolly]

88. Not to mention toys that encourage that sort of

dress. :(

[seabeyond]

89. yes. nt

[mzteris]

33. it's why i refuse to buy Calvin Klein

or clothes from that other place whose name escapes me at the moment but I know it when I see it at the mall. They have all those "soft porn" pics... won't let my kids wear those clothes. Not that they would anyway.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

4. It's extremely worrying. What sort of society is this?

[Cerridwen]

6. I would argue it is a society (world?) that preys on the "weakest".

Or those it deems weakest. It also hates that on which it preys.

If your question was rhetorical I apologize for answering in this manner.

This kind of stuff is horrifying to me and I've known of much of it for a long while. That it's getting this kind of coverage, finally, is a weird mix of relief and horror.

[a simple pattern]

8. I can't believe it's that many.

If they put them all in jail, they could let all the pot smokers go!

[tnlefty]

9. K & R

This is more than disturbing.

[CoffeeCat]

10. Child molesters and rapists...

...have always been out there.

However, it seems as though the Internet has really facilitated a new
era in child sex abuse.

For one thing--the Internet links these like-minded sociopaths. What is
really insidious about pedophiles is their very complex and distorted
thinking. They actually believe that children want sexual contact
with them. They believe that children are sexual and give off signs
that they want to be sexual with adults. There are so many ridiculous
delusions that their twisted minds believe. Adults who sexually violate
children have always had this uncanny ability to deny how much they
are traumatizing and hurting children--but when these types are constantly
reinforcing their distorted beliefs with each other--the truth about themselves
and the reality of the damage they are causing--is kept out of their
consciousness.

It used to be that they kept their delusions to themselves. Now, the
Internet provides a way for them to interact, feed off of each others'
bizarre thought processes--and they feed into each others' denial
and rationalizations.

It's really sick and it only emboldens people who have sexual contact
with children. I think the sexual abuse of children is worsening because
of the Internet.

Also, the crimes and level of crime seems to be worsening. They exchange
videos with each other and this only encourages them to prey on children
and videotape the sex crimes. In their sick community--they are most
likely reinforced for making extremely graphic films and taking very
explicit photos.

It's very sad and I wish law enforcement would dedicate more resources to
eradicating these awful crimes against innocent children--and make the
penalties even greater.

[seabeyond]

11. you keep using the word feed. i do, too. that is exactly what it is. like a drug. like alcohol.

you have a country like japan, that has really escalated the desire for children. you hear it in u.s. i have actually heard a handful of men on du say, when a girl hits puberty she is free game. a few men agree. TEN yrs old i say. and no one say, well, that is too young. i mean 13. no one.

we are saying with all the porn on internet.... anything sexually goes. we have a board of people on du, that say CONSENTING adults, no line. none. lets all talk about shitting on people chest. or shitting in a cup, eating it and vomitting in each others mouth (2 girls and a cup)....

this is our enterainment today.

and people PRETEND, pretend this is not going to create issues in our lives.

[Ripley]

17. You're absolutely right

about the internet opening up the doors of Hell.

It's very disturbing that we keep getting reports from the government that "violent crime" is down yet these kinds of crimes have escalated. Where in the fuck are the cops? The FBI?

Oh wait. We now have Homeland Security and their bullshit racist marching orders to investigate foreigners, pot smokers, etc.

But NOT child abusers.

Follow the money.

[seabeyond]

18. others would argue if crime is down

U.S. News and World Report (April 24, 2000) said, ''facing political heat to cut crime in the city, investigators in the New York PPD's Sex Crime Unit sat on (thousands of) reports of rapes and other sexual assaults." One officer snarled; ''The way crime was solved was with an eraser.''

*

Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, U.S. Army (Ret.) a renowned expert in human aggression and the roots of violence and violent crime, and a West Point psychology professor says: ''The downturn in violent crime in the U.S. in the 1990s is very deceptive. Violent crime … is still about 5 times greater today, per capita, than it was in 1957.'' ''Plus, a five-fold increase in per capita incarceration is holding down violent crime – we'd have to let 1.5 million convicted offenders go to get down to a 1970's-level incarceration rate.''

*

Yet, he says, the biggest factor for lower crime rates is that ''we are lying about the data.'' ''The ''Crimestat'' program made cops accountable for bringing down crime ... When the NYPD police union went over the data the crime rates doubled in New York City if the proper classifications were applied.'' Other than murder (held down by medical technology), the pressure on the cop on the beat means ''police artificially 'bring crime down' and the root causes of the crime get off scott free, because we cook the books.''

*

''LAPD reported a 28 percent drop in violent crime in 2005, the same year the department reclassified domestic assaults in which the victim suffered minor injuries or had no injuries.'' Since the FBI NIBRS counts only offense reports, not city charges, serious domestic violence – often tied to pornography use?is magically reduced by a city charge

[Ripley]

21. Don't forget Domestic Violence decriminalization

in Topeka recently.

It's okay to beat your spouse!

But hey, there's no violent crime in America. Oh, they must mean man on man.

Who cares about man on woman and man on children?

[seabeyond]

40. yes. nt

[Ripley]

12. This needs to be seen

Penn State was not an aberration.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Odin2005]

14. Jesus Christ, there are over a dozen of these sickos just in the Fargo area where I am!

:puke:

[seabeyond]

16. looking at the map more and more, even with the open space in the west, still

way disproportionate in the east

wonder why

[Fumesucker]

19. We're just a bunch of perverts in the East?

:shrug:

[seabeyond]

20. or as i am thinking i read u.s. has become #1 in demand for child sex slave. the corridor is canada

canada is one of the central places in trafficking thru toronto. maybe that has something to do with it.

or we can joke at the expense of kids.

[Fumesucker]

22. I just said what you seemed to be implying..

Or maybe it's just that pederasts in the west are smarter and don't get caught as often.

[seabeyond]

23. gotcha. no, i am not into statements like that. there might really be a reason and someone

might really know what that reason is.

was actually looking for information to be more informed.

[nenagh]

46. Horrifying.. reminds me of the poppies in Flanders Fields..

Total surprise to me re the Toronto, Canada corridor..And I live close to Toronto... & my kids all work there now.

So I Googled child sex trafficking, Toronto, maybe Canada... and to my horror up popped a website of a Toronto lawyer... who gave info on child porn defense essentially... what was legal and what was not vis a vis computers...

I'm stunned & surprised... but it indicates that people are looking for that information. :(

[seabeyond]

48. i was surprised as shit when i read it about canada, too. nt

[Spazito]

50. If we were able to expand the data in the above map to show the global...

numbers, it would show no country is immune from this horror. Focus on child pornography and changes in the law to address it are relatively recent due, at least in part, to the explosion of internet child pornography. Here is an article talking about just one province in Canada which give one some sense of it:

Prosecutor: Alberta child porn crime stats 'surprising'

EDMONTON - The statistics are enough to shock even a veteran prosecutor.

snip

An additional 70-80 are before the courts at any given time for possessing or manufacturing child porn, he adds.

"Even though I do this full time, I'm still surprised that in terms of the cosmopolitan world, Alberta has that many," Krieger told QMI Agency, suggesting it's only the tip of an ugly iceberg.

"Of course, those are just the ones that are caught."

more

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/03/28/13386761.html

[seabeyond]

54. you know, the last handful of years i have been making myself read and address this stuff

learn about it to have a better perspective and understanding what is going on. raising two sons, their health is proiority. and our sexuality is so important in our world, i really dont want it fucked up, unlike what i was raised with. we were allowed to walk our sexual journey (far from perfect) but not participating in the adult sex world.

even i was surprised when i saw this map last night. and really started thinking about it and putting numbers to it.

thanks for your information

[Spazito]

63. I, too, have begun to delve more deeply into this violent crime....

only recently, relatively speaking, and have learned how little is actually done and how lightly the law treats this crime relative to other violent crimes. It has been a heart-breaking education and I have vowed to do what I can to at least ensure it is not swept under the carpet, marginalized and silenced. REAL discussion and action needs to happen.

[keroro gunsou]

86. my guess

population density, and computer access. it's greater out east than most of the west.

[PufPuf23]

24. I condemn child molesters but this looks like a population density

map and the incidence of child pornagraphy and worse is likely nor oriented to urban or rural, wealthy or poor; but are victims of pathogical charismic individuals or or other cults.

IMO pedophelia is and has been long under reported and under procecuted.

[seabeyond]

25. population density

that would explain the east

[Initech]

26. That's what I've been trying to point out.

[Cerridwen]

27. "300,000 unique computers...1 in 3 of these suspects is also a hands-on offender"

300,000 unique computers identified by law enforcement trafficking in the most brutal and violent child pornography movies and images. Research shows that 1 in 3 of these suspects is also a hands-on offender, with local child victims.

That's the part that is getting lost while looking at the map.

The map turned into a distraction. The point is...

300,000 unique computers identified by law enforcement trafficking in the most brutal and violent child pornography movies and images. Research shows that 1 in 3 of these suspects is also a hands-on offender, with local child victims.

[-..__...]

28. Probaly all 4Chan users

[Cerridwen]

29. Kick. This is important information. n/t

[JoePhilly]

30. Do you have a map like this of population density?

Lacking that, this map doesn't tell us much.

[seabeyond]

31. 300,000 unique computers ...most brutal and violent child pornography movies and images

300,000 unique computers identified by law enforcement trafficking in the most brutal and violent child pornography movies and images

the map tells you this.

[JoePhilly]

41. So no map of population density ...

[seabeyond]

42. 300k x's the number of kids they have + the unknowns

i really dont get what your point is, or what you are getting at. i do know, looking at this and actually thinking of the number of kids being abused in only this manner, is horrible.

[JoePhilly]

44. If the statistic is the only thing you you want to discuss, you don't need the map.

That's the point.

Using the map should convey something beyond the statistic, or you don't need the map. And maps like this can be used to exaggerate, or to minimize, some piece of data.

For instance, if you simply change the size of the markers, you can make the entire map disappear, which would make the problem seem even worse. Or, you could shrink the markers down in size, and certain areas would no longer appear to have any instances at all, making the problem seem less severe, or less wide spread.

I'm not suggesting that the creators of this map has tried to do either of those things, but without some other reference points for comparison, you can't tell.

My suspicion is that the incidence of this activity is evenly distributed and highly correlated with population density.

But let's assume that I am wrong about that, and that it is not evenly distributed ... that it occurs in some pattern that does not align with population density ... that would be very interesting ... and you'd be able to get a sense of that by comparing this map with one of population density.

[seabeyond]

45. the map is a visual that may allow a person to say, wow. wtf? really. and then read

what is the problem people have with a map? this is odd, to me. i see absolutely no conflict in this at all. yet all the time discussing a map and nothing about the god awful number of children being forced into porn.

[Cerridwen]

32. See post #48, please. It tells us there are "300,000 unique computers..."

"1 in 3 of these suspects is also a hands-on offender, with local child victims."

It goes beyond just looking at a map.

[seabeyond]

36. the more i think about it the more amazing. 300k time the number of children with each of these

places. tht is a hell of a lot of kids....

then, the kids that are molested, raped, assaulted

you look at the prostitutes, porn actress and it is said 70-94% of them are these kids that have been molested, raped, assaulted, when they become adults.

[Cerridwen]

37. That we know of. That have hit the radar of law enforcement.

You should pardon my language but our country (the world?) is fucked up when it comes to fucking. It is toxic. I'm not sure how much of it contributes to the overall planet-wide problems we have, but it's got to be in there somewhere.

Using "sex" as torture and punishment and a form of violence doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[seabeyond]

38. yes. and then there is that. 300k x's the number of kids they have + the unknowns

that is a lotta lotta kids.

wow

[Number23]

35. This link/map is almost three years old

God only knows what the numbers are now

[Kablooie]

39. Looks like the best place to raise your kids is in the middle of Nevada.

Oh wait. That's Area 51 and the nuclear proving ground ...

Never mind.

[saras]

43. Does anyone have any objective research, not done by an advocacy agency?

Child porn as an issue doesn't magically change the fact that advocacy organizations lie and exaggerate to get results, especially ones that primarily ride on the emotional offensiveness of whatever they are opposing.

[Spazito]

47. Search the FBI, government, UN sites....

I am sure you will find more than enough to satisfy your concern about lies and exaggerations.

[seabeyond]

49. at a certain point, with certain issues, it seems to me that a person cannot find a "pure"

enough research that will allow people to take an issue seriously.

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. +1 n/t

[polly7]

51. It's amazing and really depressing to see how prevalent this is

all around the world. Are we becoming a sicker society?, or was it just always here but better hidden in the days before computers? I never even heard of the word pedophile growing up. We knew sicko's were out there ... for sure, but not against children. It makes my skin crawl thinking about it.

[seabeyond]

55. i really think the ability to connect with others helps to feed it. with our mind

there is a process in making choice. i think this allows the steps in this process to be done so much easier.

accessibility alone makes it so much simpler

[polly7]

58. That makes sense.

I guess with the internet too there's a kind of feeling of invincibility. The danger of getting caught probably doesn't seem all that real when one is sitting safely isolated in their own home hunting down this crap.

God help the children.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. Am I really the first person to ask this question?

How do they know what's on the computer located at each of those dots?

[Spazito]

56. These are only the ones they have caught....

Here is a link to a site that contains good information on the various programs, data, etc, about child pornography:

Introduction:
Child pornography is a very large and in many cases touchy subject. This is one of the reasons that it is hard to catch the people perpetrating it. Many people do not want to talk about it because it is such a horrible thing. This silence is one of the things child pornographers count on to keep their business going. In recent months the issue of child pornography has become visible in the media. Talk show hosts like Oprah Winfrey have produced shows exposing some of the information they have found about child pornography and the people who help to make it such a large and profitable industry. Recently, Oprah had a young man on her show who had been doing sex shows at home and on the Internet for money and who is now working with government officials to help bring down the people who prey on children through this medium.

Another thing that keeps these web sites going is the amount of money that can, and is being made with this business. Some reports show that child pornography over the internet is more than a 50 billion dollar a year business. With technology growing faster and faster everyday and the Internet being such an instant source gratification in so many ways it has become easier for people who run child pornography sites to make a lot of money in a short amount of time. Another thing that keeps child pornography sites going is the laws. The United States has laws against child pornography and prostitution, but many other countries do not have the same laws. In some countries prostitution is legal. This link to other places makes it very appealing to people who wish to view and/or promote this type of material. There are, however, people and organizations in some of these countries that are trying to help expose these child pornographers. There are several organizations that have international ties and work with countries outside of the United States to help stop the spread of child pornography on the Internet. There are organizations that work with local and federal agencies in the United States, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), to help locate and round up the people running these child pornography rings and put a stop to the people using them. In the past year there have been two major child pornography rings busted. In both cases the people running the rings were spread across more than one country. Both cases included people from the United States and Canada.

more

http://www.ed.uiuc.edu/wp/netfiles.uiuc.edu/kleckaus/www/childpornography.html

This is from the University of Illinois and contains additional links with more info.

[seabeyond]

57. "could be easily located and prosecuted...lack of resources...fewer than 2% are even being investi"

That means that in addition to being a picture of the child exploitation market in America, it is also a rescue map. Each of these suspects could be easily located and prosecuted. However, due to sheer lack of resources, fewer than 2% are even being investigated, leaving untold thousands of children waiting for protection.

The leading law enforcement investigation in the U.S., Operation Fairplay of the Wyoming Attorney General's office, reports that it finds 15,000-20,000 suspects each day engaged in trafficking movies and images of very young children being tortured, raped and assaulted.

These leads are ready now. The Obama Stimulus plan could fund the greatest child sexual abuse prevention and protection program in history.

[Initech]

59. I tried to say the same thing last night.

That map is MEANINGLESS. You can literally use it to prove anything. They didn't specify what criteria they used or anything like that. If you did an ACTUAL map of child abuse/rape cases it'd probably look a lot more sparse than that.

[Spazito]

61. The map is showing locations of unique computers found to be involved in....

child pornography. It is not a map showing locations of child abuse/rape cases, the two are related but NOT the same thing. You want more info? Here you go:

Computers linked to child pornography

More than 570,000 computers nationwide, identified by their serial numbers, have traded pornographic images of children since October 2005.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-07-child-porn-computers_n.htm

The link has the numbers broken out by state, because it is a list and not paragraphs easily broken out to ensure copyrights are respected, I have given the link and only the opening sentence. The source for the data is the Wyoming Attorney General, Operation Fair Play.

It seems the map would be even less sparse than the one used in the OP not more.

[Initech]

64. That's a much better representation.

[Ripley]

60. Wow, look at people trying to minimize this.

Wonder why.

Here's the freaking report given before the UNITED STATES SENATE including this "meaningless" map.

Warning: Very graphic material. Notice how Pennsylvania tops the list.

http://judiciary.senate.gov/pdf/08-04-16WatersTestimony.pdf

[seabeyond]

62. thank you ripley. it is all about keeping the ugly world out, for the comfort of

ignorance.

[Initech]

65. That map is meaningless.

I could say that map is... the highest concentrated areas of automobile traffic in the US and it would look exactly the same. Or the highest number of tenured teachers in America. It'd still look the same. The stats reported in post 61 are a much better representation. I'm certainly not advocating this shit, and I absolutely would never think it's funny that's for sure.

[Spazito]

66. Because, numerically, one can find just about anything that would mirror....

the density of unique computers involved in child pornography does NOT negate the map showing the density in the OP. To dismiss the map because it is a map instead of the numerical specificity I provided in my link to you is wrong-headed, imo. Were it not for that very map in the OP, along with the explanation of what it depicts, we would not now be discussing the issue nor finding text data to help those whose learning leans that way as opposed to those who respond to visual cues such as the map.

[Initech]

68. Here's the thing though...

While I'm certainly glad that the horrifying Penn State fiasco is what prompted this discussion , there are 340 MILLION Americans. There are 570,000 cases of child rape and abuse. That's less than .1% of the population, but the map in the OP makes it look like it happens everywhere. That is certainly not the case. It's something that has to stop I agree, but I think the statistics were very skewed in this argument.m

[Spazito]

70. You do know, I hope, that the map and the text stats provided....

are only of those caught and not the totality of those committing the crime. The crime of child abuse/rape and child pornography is a severely under-reported crime. For every red flag on the map and every number compiled in the text stats in this thread, there are more as yet to be caught.

Edited to correct grammatical error.

[Initech]

71. True true.

My mom is a teacher and has had to report cases of child abuse in the past. When a report like that happens it's literally a damned if you do damned if you don't situation. The situations will cause trials, and convictions and that sort of thing - and even then if a teacher is reporting abuse and they're called to testify, they themselves could testify and if they don't know the circumstances could be prosecuted for perjury. I know it happens more often than not but there are circumstances in which people would be reluctant to report it.

[Spazito]

73. All too often, in child abuse/rape/child pornography cases....

those who do report pay a heavy price for doing so. Fingers are pointed at them, the victims are accused of being at fault, and on and on. Because the crimes we are talking about involve children, our most vulnerable of society, and many of those crimes so violent, we, as a society have a very difficult time getting our heads around it but we must if we are ever to actually address these crimes with the seriousness they deserve, imo. It is the very reluctance to report that, somehow, we must overcome, all of us.

BTW, I have the utmost respect for teachers who are often of the front lines in detecting possible child abuse.

[Initech]

75. It's definitely a shitty situation for all involved - even the innocent ones.

[nenagh]

77. This is wholly a guess....

I would relate the greater density of red on the map being in the east.. due to a more extensive internet connectivity between large cities in the east & middle of the country.

In the Sandusky case...I think that the situation you outline played out at the school.
And the mother that broke the whole story, deserves so much credit, because I thought I read that someone in the school did say to her.. that she should think about reporting the case, because it could be hard on her child. She then went to the correct Children's Agency.

That is if I remember correctly..

[Initech]

78. That's how it plays out a lot of times.

In the Penn State case it wasn't really Paterno's fault - he caught it and was aware that the situation was happening and reported it to his superiors. It was the superiors who royally fucked up by not reporting it to the police and keeping it hidden for so long while the abuse continued. And I think the superiors set Paterno up to take the fall - and it does happen a lot. Like I said - when cases of abuse happen - it's a shitty situation for EVERYONE involved - even those that report it to the cops.

But a lot of the times people are so reluctant to report it because of the perjury factor. If that wasn't the case at all you bet it'd get reported a lot more often.

[seabeyond]

74. clarification. per the FBI 30%-70% of rapes are not reported. they are so clueless, that

they even have to have a number like 30-70%.

[Initech]

79. Yeah true - the FBI hasn't been a good agency for many years.

[seabeyond]

80. i hear people quote FBI numbers all the time as cold hard truths. until it is something they don't

want to hear.

[Initech]

84. Exactly. I dont believe anything the government tells me without facts to back it up first.

I hate to sound like the teabaggers but it is true that a lot of misinformation comes out of our government.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

82. Thanks for this. Deserves its own Thread.

[apocalypsehow]

72. Wow...just wow. That is as eye-opening as it is completely and totally sickening.

Let us hear no more "but he was just a kid!" or "Paterno reported it to his boss and fulfilled his duty!" from anyone anywhere again. This stuff is pure evil, and until I looked at the map in your OP wasn't aware of just widespread the problem is. Enough to make you sick to your stomach just looking at that map, knowing what it represents.

Rec for raising awareness.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

81. Thank you for this.

Tried to make a point about this earlier and failed miserably.

[Raksha]

83. K & R - "Shovel ready," huh?

Rebuild our moral infrastructure? Now that's a plan! If 100,000+ child sexual predators aren't a safety hazard, I don't know what is.

[ManiacJoe]

85. For this map to be even remotely useful,

the phrase "computers identified by law enforcement trafficking" needs to be defined.

[Warren DeMontague]

87. It'd be nice to get a map of all the Catholic Churches in the US

and do a side by side comparison.

[Spazito]

90. Gosh, why not go whole hog and get a map that shows....

all the boy scout organization's locations, a map of all the university and college organizations that have coaches/counselors affiliated to the sports programs...football, hockey, baseball, etc., and the result of doing so is?

Oh, and the subject matter of the OP is child pornography and the map is of internet child pornography not the sum total of where child abuse and rape have occurred.

No comparison is needed, the map in the OP speaks for itself, imo.

I look forward to your OP detailing the locations of child abuse/rape, including child pornography and, even better, seeing them located on a map such as the one in the OP. You have a lot of work ahead of you!

[Warren DeMontague]

92. oh, did I say something that upset you?

I think the existence of a well-financed international organization with a proven history of conspiracy to help known child abusers escape justice would be relevant to the topic. Silly me.

[Spazito]

96. No, I am not upset at all....

I thought you were vocalizing(virtually speaking) your intent to pursue such a compilation and my suggestion was to broaden it to all aspects of child abuse/rape/child pornography and, in doing so, suggested you take into consideration the other organizations known to have been involved beyond the one iterated by you in your post. I am sorry if that was not your intent, it's unfortunate it is not.

I hope you don't believe the Catholic Church is the only organization involved in child abuse/rape and that if the Catholic church were to disappear, the crime of child abuse/rape/child pornography would no longer exist, you don't believe that, do you?

[Warren DeMontague]

97. No. But I think they should have to play by the same rules as everyone else.

Which means I can't see any reason for the current pope to NOT be dragged in front of an international criminal court on conspiracy charges.

[Spazito]

101. I have no argument with you on the culpability of the Catholic church....

the pope and the Vatican as a whole. They have not been called to account for their actions and have acted in the same way the Penn State administration dealt with their serial predator, swept it under the carpet.

The only way accountability, true accountability is going to happen is the awareness of the violent crime of child abuse/rape/child pornography is raised to the level of seriousness that action, REAL action to deal with it.

My point, obviously being made poorly, is that singling out only one organization while ignoring all the others reduces, not increases, the awareness and allows for the crime to continue to be ignored/buried/protected.

Edited to add: The more voices raised in concert on this crime, the more difficult it is to be left unaddressed with the seriousness it deserves so it is my hope in posting as I have been that more voices will join and focus on like a laser beam on it.

[Warren DeMontague]

103. I agree. Lest I be accused of changing the subject

I'd like to see our DOJ focus on people who are harming or exploiting kids, absolutely, rather than, say, going after chemo sick grannies who are smoking pot.

[Spazito]

105. Oh, couldn't agree with you more re the screwed up priorities....

of the Justice Department, not only in the U.S. but in many countries. Children are abused/raped, some of which is taped and shared via internet child pornography. I cannot think of a greater cause for all of us, including our governments to focus on and combat in a real way.

Edited to add: If the government AND the public were to put the same energy/resources put into addressing child abuse/rape/child pornography as was done on the issue of smoking, it would go a ways to reduce it as smoking has been reduced. It wouldn't eradicate it but it would be a big start, imo.

[mzmolly]

91. K and

R.

Hello Ripley. Long time no "see". Thanks for sharing this important information.

[dbt]

93. Go on with your bad self, Rip!

Put the Truth on 'em and let 'em squirm.

K & R from the Land of Cash and Green.

:evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

94. or talk about the catholic church to shift discussion. or the map

anything, but, please, no.... not the reality of a lot of our kids in teh u.s.

[Warren DeMontague]

98. how the fuck is that a shift in discussion? The Church has REPEATEDLY covered up abuse.

It's a terrible reality, and ANYONE who hurts kids should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Too often, unfortunately, Father McFondlefingers has gotten special dispensation in this regard, just like your creepy College Football assistant wundercoach.

It's fucking horrible, and unlike some people, I think that trying to wink-wink-nudge-nudge conflate it with what grown-ups like to do amongst themselves ALSO diminishes the seriousness of the offense.

[seabeyond]

100. right.... nt

[Warren DeMontague]

102. yeah, I am.

Now, you want to talk about how terrible this is? It's terrible. And it's appalling that we have billions of dollars to drag pot smoking cancer grannies off to prison while these people are still out there.

Oh, wait, was that a shift in discussion, because I brought something else up?

[Drew Richards]

95. I have a very hard time believing ANY gov made map that forgets

To add an entire state or states...like ummm hello...West Virginia is their own state now a days, you know like

Since the Civil War broke away from the Confederacy and added to the Union in 1863...

OR Maine perhaps which is not on the map either...

New Jersey...

Mass
NH
ct
vt
RI


You can play too...what is missing from this "complete" picture...

The facts are horrible true, I just loath geographic incompetence masking as valid data collection.

OH heck wait...is this a pre-civil war map? No can't be they don't list any of the new england states...

Weird map they are using...invalidates the data as far as I am concerned.

[seabeyond]

99. Weird map they are using...invalidates the data as far as I am concerned.

:silly:

[Initech]

104. Exactly what I was trying to say.

It's a population density map which you can really use to make any claim you want. If you were to look up an actual map like this - or actual cases of abuse you'd see far fewer dots. It's still not something to joke about or take lightly under any circumstances - but having better facts will help validate your argument. This doesn't.

[seabeyond]

106. i don't agree. i see a lot of people spending time dissing the map and not really

considering the issue.

as i said earlier. i just don't have a problem with the map. i do have issue with all the children being put into porn and us not even able to make a dent in the known cases because of resources ect.... and the effects it has in our society. what is causing and allowing this to grow, ect...

the map is the least of issues.

[Warren DeMontague]

107. then why don't you tell us what you want people to say, then

I mean, beyond 'this is fucked up and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law'. I said I think it's appalling that right now we spend $40 Billion a year to go after pot smoking... that guy who had Elizabeth Smart or whoever living in his back yard for 10 years-- shit, if she had only been a pot plant they would have had helicopters and SWAT teams there in 5 minutes..

but clearly, you have some very definite ideas about where you think this topic should go, and you're not getting the satisfaction you desire from the responses so far..

okay, so you like ventriloquism, right? Tell people what it is they're supposed to be saying, here.

[Initech]

108. I'm certainly not refuting the issue.

I'm trying to refute the data presented and I got attacked because the OP thought I was refuting the issue and playing it off, that certainly wasn't the case. I would not use that data to provoke a discussion without having additional facts to back it up - that's not the way you win debates as I was taught.