Some perspective on Paterno

[melissaf]

I feel like I'm throwing more fodder to the outrage addicts, but I think other perspectives ought to be circulated so we don't become an echo chamber in here...

"You can say that he knew enough to stop this, and I’d say you were right. I have tried so hard to make it clear that I am not defending Joe Paterno’s actions or inactions, but I know that won’t be enough. You may be writing an email right now telling me how terrible child molestation is, how awful a person Joe Paterno is, how awful a person I am for wanting to wait and see. I understand. This case hits emotions that are unstoppable.

But I will say this: Paterno has paid a price here. His job is gone. His life’s work has been soiled. His reputation is in tatters. Maybe that should be the price. Maybe there should be more of a price. You don’t have to type: “Well, his price is nothing like the price of those victims…” I already know that.

But I think the way Joe Paterno has lived his life has earned him something more than instant fury, more than immediate assumptions of the worst, more than the happy cheers of critics who have always believed that there was something phony about the man and his ideals. He deserves what I would hope we all deserve — for the truth to come out, or, anyway, the closest thing to truth we can find.

I don’t think Joe Paterno has gotten that. And I think that’s sad."

The End of Paterno
http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/11/10/the-end-of-paterno/

[Suich]

1. Thanks, melissaf!

I agree with you 100%.

Thanks for posting this...

K&R!

[Ohio Joe]

2. What further truth do you think might come out?

"His job is gone."

So what? He is very rich and will not pay a dime in any law suit that comes of it.

"His life’s work has been soiled. His reputation is in tatters."

Odd, he is still in the college football hall of fame and will probably stay there.

"Maybe that should be the price."

Maybe? Thats it? For letting an active pedophile continue abusing children for years when he was fully aware of it? By his own admission he was aware of it all that time and did nothing but tell his boss... He gets to retire? And you think that is just punishment?

He admits what he did, there is nothing more to come out... No mitigating circumstances are going to come out, he has told his story. These excuses for this piece of shit are really disgusting.

[melissaf]

3. With all due respect,

did you read the article, or just the excerpt? Because the article says some things that I haven't heard anyone say before now. I don't know that I ultimately agree with all of it, but it's very well thought out and doesn't make excuses for Paterno in any way, shape, or form.

[Ohio Joe]

6. awwww, poor joe has suffered enough

When that is the point, that is an excuse. He is getting off with zero punishment for what he did, that is the fact. Anyone that thinks that is good enough, really need to re-evaluate some things. They are putting joe's remorse over not being allowed to "finish the season with dignity" on par with victims of a pedophile.

He let a pedophile continue abusing children for YEARS and did NOTHING because he did not want to HURT THE SCHOOL... Let that sink in.... He get off completely clean for what he did... Let that sink in... Now go read that article again... It's a fucking excuse for a fucking pedophile enabler. The douchebag should be going to prison and in most states he would be.

[melissaf]

9. No, that's not the point of the article.

The point of the article is, wait and see what comes out of all this. At this point, I think, at best, Joe is a stupid, stupid, stupid old man. He should have retired long, long ago. But he didn't get to finish the season. He may not get off completely clean for what he did. And NO ONE is putting Joe's suffering on par with the victims of a pedophile.

It's not an excuse to present a different perspective on someone's life.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

10. "But he didn't get to finish the season."

Oh, dear.

[melissaf]

12. I'm not going to shut up about this

if that's what you're trying to do here. If you're not going to bother thinking about what I'm saying, please go read one of the 50 or so threads on how Joe Paterno is a raping pedophile enabling pedophile from Pedo State.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

15. Please continue to post.

"But he didn't get to finish the season."

[melissaf]

17. But he didn't get to finish the season

and he may still face charges. Did you, by any chance, happen to read the article?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

19. You are truly without a clue to have posted that.

[melissaf]

You've obviously made up your mind.

See ya.

[sabrina 1]

34. Thank you for trying to inject a little humanity into this horrible

situation. I am amazed at how perfect everyone becomes when these tragic stories hit the news.

I'm also amazed that the same outrage is not displayed at our current slaughter of children in Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan and who knows where else, on almost a daily basis. Children blown to bits, their parents unable to identify the body parts for burial. I wish we could generate the same amount of outrage for those victims of our Government. But our team is doing it now, sort of like Paterno's team, so we are not so loud as we used to be when the other team was doing it.

I have read very little about this case, it is tragic and disgusting but in a society that yawns when you try to get some outrage going over dead, innocent children killed by our tax paid for bombs, why should anyone expect anything different than what happened here? Anyhow, I for one, appreciate your efforts :-)

[trotsky]

42. I think the primary difference...

is that people don't generally start threads on DU to defend what our nation is doing to children in the countries you list.

[sabrina 1]

55. No, but when people try to talk about it, there are always those

who defend it. Like the direct targeting of a 16 year-old, also killing his teen-aged friends, eg. And when outrage is expressed over the drone killings of women and children, excuses are made. Frankly I see no excuse for any of these things. Or the trial of a child soldier, once a cause for the left, suddenly not so much after the election.

And the suppression of the evidence of the torture, sodomizing and rape of women and children at Abu Ghraib, so cruel, that grown men like Seymour Hersch, could barely speak about it. The silence from the 'left' has been deafening over the past few years, except to offer excuses whenever the subject is raised. And we must 'look forward' from all that now.

So we are a country that condones these horrors, the abuse of children and women. Any culture that condones these things should not be so surprised to find out that right here, depending on the 'team' and the 'importance' of the perps, it gets shoved under rugs also.

[trotsky]

56. Interesting.

"Any culture that condones these things should not be so surprised to find out that right here, depending on the 'team' and the 'importance' of the perps, it gets shoved under rugs also."

It sounds like you're starting to make excuses now. What it sounds like you are saying is that the Penn State officials really can't be blamed here, since our culture does not react with sufficient outrage to other crimes and actions.

[sabrina 1]

73. No, it doesn't sound like that at all. It sounds like what it says,

pretty clearly actually. To me, you sound like you are excusing rapes and murders our government has been engaged in for over ten years now with the approval of the American people apparently, and would prefer we not examine why we live in a culture that accepts these things and whether that attitude of acceptance of these horrors have anything to do with why we can have crimes like those at Penn State, or in Congress, remember Foley whose crimes were known in DC for over a decade also, covered up and not regarded as serious until someone finally blows the whistle?

I'm wondering what the difference is between an Iraqi child being sodomized in front of his mother or his mother being raped, and a child in this country. And why it was never considered in this society to be a crime worth investigating. Is it because they are 'brown people'? 'Muslims'? Lesser human beings? I don't understand it, but I do know the facts, not many people in this country care about those children.

I could be wrong about your post of course, just as you are about mine. But so long as any conversation about the broader cultural acceptance of crimes against children and the selective nature of the outrage, remains confrontational, it only proves my point.

I really WOULD like to understand why there is no outrage of those horrendous crimes. I would like to know what happened to those women and children. Sorry if that appears to you to mean 'excusing' those very crimes whether they are here or there. And I would like to know whether the acceptance of them THERE, explains the apparent acceptance of them here.

[trotsky]

86. As much as you'd like to tie these incidents together,

I do not believe you are justified in doing so - and in the process, trying to play the ultimate "outrage" trump card. I can be upset with both, and I can understand why there are different reactions to people defending them (or not) on DU.

[sabrina 1]

91. Why are you making this about me? It is not personal, to you or

me. It is a fact that this is a pretty violent, abusive society for Americans, see our prison system, eg, and for those whose countries we invade. But mostly against the weak and helpless.

Throughout history, when a society turns a blind eye to the brutality of their government, it is no surprise to find that among the upper levels of that society, abuse against vulnerable people is often the norm and acceptable.

The fact is, this abuser was allowed to go about his filthy business even though it was known to many 'respected' members of this society. The same was true of Foley, who despite the despicable nature of HIS crimes, known again by many of our elected officials for over a decade, he too was allowed to continue his abuses so long as he served the purposes of those in power. He paid very little price for his crimes, and recently even considered a run for office again. The ONLY reason his crimes were exposed was because they became valuable for political purposes. It's not as if they were just discovered at that time.

The people are equally responsible when they KNOW about these abuses, as we do, yet remain silent when OUR team is responsible, either side. So now one is blameless once a society reaches this stage unless they continually speak out about all abuse.

[trotsky]

94. I am not interested in excusing people for their actions...

by saying that we are all guilty for not being outraged enough. Sorry.

[sabrina 1]

110. Well, we agree. I am not interested in that either.

[Ohio Joe]

16. You are not saying anything

You are ignoring facts and throwing out some strange hope that maybe something will come out later to change what he has admitted. What could possibly come out to change what has been admitted?

[melissaf]

21. Well, from my perspective

you are saying the same things over and over and over again. Has it ever occurred to you that EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY, barring the frothing Penn State fans, thinks this whole thing is fucked up? EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY thinks more should have been done? EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY is horrified by the grand jury report and haunted by the little boy getting raped in the shower?

Why do you insist on bringing up images of child rape over and over and over again? Do we have to imagine these horrible events every second of every day of our live?

I can't fucking sleep at night. Does that make you happy?

Did you ever think that maybe Joe explaining WHY he didn't do the right thing might shed a little more light on the subject? Or is it easier to just flush him down the toilet without another word?

[DiverDave]

32. . I get enraged by this,

I cant sleep either, I cannot stop thinking about the boys that were assaulted.
I have been dealing with the anger and shame of being molested when I was young.
I really REALLY hope they can get this behind them, I havnt. I have been away from my computer and havent seen all the comments about this.

I just cant get over that idiot that saw it and how he didnt tell anyone, because of his JOB??

He better hope he doesnt come near me because I would gladly go to jail for kicking his ass.
Those poor kids, they dont deserve to go through the hell I still go through.

[melissaf]

36. That's awful

You don't deserve to go through this. Neither did they. I still can't fathom how this could have happened. I don't even have the words. I pray for justice, that's about all I can do.

Take care, and try to get some sleep.

[October]

92. i am sorry that happened to you.

I keep hearing that McQueary wants a chance to speak, but cannot fathom what he could possibly say.

I can only wish you peace. And sympathy.

[EFerrari]

90. "Don't be so judgmental, that's my prerogative, you outrage addicts."

[Ohio Joe]

13. He has publicly admitted he did nothing, what else can come out?

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/11/09/penn-states-joe-paterno-apologizes-for-not-acting-during-sandusky-scandal/

All he did was tell his boss back in 2002, then nothing... Not one fucking word. Not when he knew the guy was working around kids. Not when he knew the guy was still doing overnights with kids. Not when he was sending the guy to recruit kids. Nothing, zero, zilch. He ADMITS this... He does, Paterno, Joe, JoePa, that guy. Nothing is going to mitigate his silence for all those years and trying to pretend that something will is making an excuse for him. Fucked up.

[melissaf]

14. One line from a press release

isn't really equivalent to telling one's story.

[Ohio Joe]

20. WTF?

He admits he did no more then tell his boss back in 2002... Carry on with that hope he might pull something out of his ass that makes being silent for all those years OK.

This excuse making is simply too fucked up for me, I'm done, the stupid is simply burning a bit much.

[beac]

59. I read the article and it made me sick.

The author claims that "JoePa" has led and decent and honorable life. Guess what? Until a week or so ago, he proabably would have written the same thing about Jerry Sandusky. The facts that have come to light so far are MORE than enough to say Paterno, for whatever good things he may have done, had an ENORMOUS hole in his moral code right where "not enabling a child molester" should have been.

If brave Victim #1 hadn't come forward, Patterno would still be sitting silently by while Sandusky continued to rape children and ruin their lives.

[Suich]

5. I didn't know Paterno said "he was aware of it all the time."

I don't think he has any say about who is in the Hall of Fame.

This story is less than a week old...I think a lot more will come out.

As far as I know, Paterno has not admitted "what he did," or "told his story."

I'm willing to wait until the whole story comes out...

[Ohio Joe]

8. He knew since 2002

Read a news story on it, this is common knowlegde. He has already appologized for not doing more then telling his boss.

[Octafish]

75. 1998

Sandusky was investigated by the university for showering with underage boys.

The next year, Sandusky was told he wouldn't succeed Paterno as Penn State's head coach.

SOURCE: http://m.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2011-11/penn-state-scandal/story/penn-state-timeline-jerry-sandusky-joe-paterno-mike-mcqueary

[TorchTheWitch]

115. couldn't have said it better

Even here the hero worship of this guy abounds.

[JohnnyLib2]

4. Posnanski (from Sports Illustrated) is writing a book on Paterno.

Helluva job he's got. I'm glad to hear more from him.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

7. "the outrage addicts"

That'll open a lot of ears & hearts.

[melissaf]

11. Yeah, well

the outrage addicts haven't been opening a lot of ears and hearts on my end of things. In fact, I put that in there because I seriously doubt the outrage addicts will change their minds. I want other people to read the article, and maybe get a little peace out of the idea that there are more ways to look at this story than "inhuman monsters rape children and get off scot free."

[A-Schwarzenegger]

18. Yes, you're doing a great job.

Probably not the job you want to do or think you're doing.

[melissaf]

22. Well, it seems you've already made up your mind

Bye.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

26. Seriously, if changing minds is what you are trying to do with this thread

your communication skills are failing you.
You cannot verbally punch people in the stomach with
"outrage addicts" & expect them to be receptive to your
message. If somebody did happen to have an ounce of pity
for Paterno, you nullify it by making them think of how
truly gross & stupid it is for you to call them "outrage addicts"
because of their horror at the rape of children.

[melissaf]

31. You know something?

I thought of taking out that "outrage addicts" thing, but then I thought, no. I'm sick and tired of seeing countless fantasies about what people would have done if they'd caught Sandusky raping a kid. I'm sick and tired of having to explain myself that EVERYONE AGREES. EVERYONE IS HORRIFIED. INCLUDING ME. Instead, all everyone wants to talk about is how child rape is awful, how child rape is horrible. Rape rape rape rape rape. I thought maybe putting a DIFFERENT OPINION out there, one that is NOT MY OWN, might make some little tiny shred of difference in the discourse, might be useful. If you'd rather talk for the umpteenth time about how horrible rape is, and how horrible I am, and how you clearly would have been the savior of us all, START YOUR OWN THREAD.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

35. "I thought of taking out that 'outrage addicts' thing..."

You should have, IF you had wanted to communicate
instead of insult & shame. I hear a lot of pain in your
post but it's hiding behind your own rage and vitriol.

[sabrina 1]

37. I disagree, I think she said what she felt, and to be honest,

I don't understand as she said, why people have to repeat all the graphic details of what happens when someone is raped over and over again. We know what happens, Something cringe-worthy to me about the need to constantly repeat the graphic details.

Maybe a little reflection, reading the article posted, which it appears no one has done in this thread btw, and think what might be best for the victims, and mostly this country which has no problem with the rape of children in Iraq, or the slaughter going on daily of children in Pakistan and Yemen, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

How do we stop all this brutality viewed as heroic by our government?

We live in a culture of violence to which few even react anymore. And once this story is out of the news, the outrage will go away, as it always does, and if I or anyone else remind people of the rapes and murder and torture of children by our Government, no one will care. I know, I've tried. Raping children is not a crime in this country, is it? If it was, Cheney and Rumsfeld, and Yoo and Bush would all be in jail right now.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

39. Her OP & the article were about Paterno, who you fail to mention.

Her OP & the article were calls for humane feeling for him.
I feel a measure of pity for him, but as I said,
when she writes "outrage addicts" she defeats her
own message. She would have done better to simply
present the article without the insult. Your post
addresses important issues, but the OP and the article
are about Paterno.

[alcibiades_mystery]

47. There's clearly an outrage addiction going on

One thing to the next, they skip through stories, feeding it, feeding it.

I've heard someone call it the Nancy Gracification Of America, which sounds about right.

I also don't see much of a problem with calling it what it is. You surely won't win anybody to your perspective, but when a mob is all moving in one direction, it's often all you can do to simply throw another position into the mix to cut the uniformity. That's about where we've been on this, and yes, the piece you posted here has been around for several days, unposted.

[JohnnyLib2]

49. "throw another position into the mix to cut the uniformity"

Good way to describe it, and kudos to the OP for doing so.

[myrna minx]

23. Is that the new Luntz term for those of us who are horrified by child rape?: "Outrage Addicts"

Wow. :puke:

[melissaf]

24. yeah, that's right

Assume I'm a republican because I'm saying something you disagree with. That'll really change my mind.

[myrna minx]

No one should *need* to "change your mind" about this. You've made yourself

clear where you stand regarding who you support in this child rape case. Your words speak for themselves. Bye.

[myrna minx]

27. Duplicate post. n/t

[melissaf]

25. By the way,

I started out this whole thing as an outrage addict. Now I just want to understand what the hell happened. Don't assume things about total strangers.

[myrna minx]

28. Read this:

http://www.freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C4181508116.PDF

[melissaf]

29. Read the article in the OP first.

[myrna minx]

30. I'll stick with sworn grand jury testimony, thanks. Signed the

"outraged addicts" who have been forever horribly changed and threw up in their mouths due to reading the grand jury testimony.

[melissaf]

33. Ah, I see.

You'd rather rant about something you know nothing about than gather up the courage to read the frakking post. So you've made up your mind. See ya.

[Fumesucker]

38. Personally as a molestation victim myself I hope Paterno is sued for every nickel he has..

And ends up on the streets like so many people that never had the fame and adulation this moral midget got to bask in for decades.

[SixthSense]

40. I dare say that it is impossible

to do enough good coaching football

to offset the evil of turning a blind eye to a child rapist year after year after year

if you think differently you are missing an essential part of your humanity

[SoDesuKa]

41. Highbrow and Lowbrow

People are taking a very highbrow view of Joe Paterno, but football is lowbrow, and so is Joe Paterno. He's a football coach, not a professor. When he heard there was "funny stuff" going on, he confronted the guy and then he fired him. It's a very direct way of handling the situation, and in a lowbrow way, directness is all that matters.

The trustees of Penn State University couldn't very well fire the president and let Paterno wait till the season is over. That's probably the main reason they fired him, knowing that his supporters would be very upset. But the Trial of the Century is upon us, as highbrow clashes with lowbrow. The Sandusky trial will be Grand Bathos like the Casey Anthony trial. Although an acquittal is inconceivable, let's remember that Casey Anthony wasn't expected to be acquitted either.



Her trial ended in an acquittal.

[Fumesucker]

43. There were quite a few here on DU that thought an acquittal in the CA case was possible..

For one thing the prosecution botched the case as badly as the OJ prosecutors did.

[muriel_volestrangler]

53. When did Paterno 'fire the guy'?

Sandusky retired, with a pension, in 1999 (aged 55). McQueary witnessed Sandusky raped the boy in 2002. If you're saying that the reason Sandusky retired in 1999 was because Paterno had heard there was 'funny stuff going on', but that he still didn't go the the police when, 3 years later, he knew that Sandusky was using the facilities (which Paterno's organisation had allowed him to keep access to) to rape children, then that's even worse.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

70. He didn't fire the guy, and as far as we know never confronted him either. His son, Scott Paterno,

who is an attorney and has acted as kind of a half-assed PR guy for Joe recently, went on the record and said Joe has never spoken with Sandusky about the child rape and molestation allegations:

http://articles.philly.com/2011-11-09/news/30378141_1_joe-paterno-tim-curley-jerry-sandusky

"According to Scott Paterno, his father never spoke about the allegations to Sandusky, an assistant for 32 years."

This is either unbelievable, considering Sandusky was Paterno's top subordinate in the football program for decades, or Joe was running away as a coward from the situation and not asking on purpose to avoid getting embroiled in the situation legally.

[Atman]

44. "The way he lived his life?" WTF?

He regularly let his players off the hook for crimes from DUI to stabbings. He put his football team above all morality. He went to bed at night knowing a colleague was raping young boys. That is how he lived his life. What next, "Think of the wonderful lives of all the boys he didn't rape?" Seriously? Joe compensated for his internal demons by doing some good stuff which would make people think he wasn't really scum.

[tularetom]

45. Thanks for posting this

And for your insistence that we at least have a trial before we start lookin for a rope to string Paterno up with.

You done good.

[Ikonoklast]

46. Paterno grew the fiber, fabricated the rope, fashioned a noose, and willingly put it around his neck

where it has hung since 1998.

No one else needed to do anything.

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. Correction

No one else needed to do anything. But cheer.

[jakefrep]

57. Bullshit.

Paterno wasn't the one fooling around with little kids. The outrage addicts are too ignorant to understand that.

[October]

98. Seriously?

Outrage addicts? You think that's clever?

Paterno not only knew about Sandusky's behavior, he was his friend... and allowed him to bring kids around the PSU campus and facilities for YEARS after he learned of his behavior.

For me, it's not even about the fact he could have done more -- I can't believe what he did do!

He ALLOWED this man to remain on the premises and considered him a friend. AFTER he knew!!!

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ikonoklast]

111. Did he call the police after being notified one of his subordinates

was witnessed raping a little boy?

One phone call might have stopped a dozen or more kids from being raped.

Ignorant, indeed.

I wear your condescension and dismissal with pride, and it's good to know who the apologists for pedophilia enablers are in the world.

[seabeyond]

50. maybe allow people a little time to absorb what paterno has done and how the students react

allow a person their anger at what is seen as an autracity with our children in a world of callousness to our children and people, alike. and then, they will let it go with an "he has paid enough"

but it does not help to start with " the outrage addicts". kinda dismissing people that are actually bothered an adult allowed children to be raped over friendship and money and reputation.

[RagAss]

51. Bullshit ...If he could cover up a decade of this horror....he could have covered up anything !

[Mendocino]

52. Outrage addicts

I file that with other pejoratives like tree hugger, do-gooder, nanny stater and the professional left.

[alcibiades_mystery]

54. Interesting

I file your post here with similar attempts to quash any dissent to a majority position by placing effective characterizations of it out of play.

Luckily, however, we all get to have our say, and our own way of characterizing what we see happening in discourse.

I wish we could all slow down and listen to each other's positions respectfully, but we're clearly in the recriminations stage, so this is what we get instead: pedophile enabler! child rape supporter! outrage addict! frenzied member of the lynch mob! and etc. It's unfortunate, but perhaps more civil deliberation will emerge in its wake.

Cheers. :hi:

[Mendocino]

58. Perhaps I'm missing your point

or maybe you missed mine. Generalizing someone who disagrees with a persons position as an outrage addict does both parties a disservice. Just as calling an environmentalist a tree hugger or a non-smoker a nanny stater does not make for effective debate.

[alcibiades_mystery]

61. I understand your point

I just don't agree with it.

One can perfectly well generalize a style of engagement, as seems to be happening here. That it doesn't lead to fruitful debate is obvious: calling all those who want to slow down the condemnation and collect all the information (or at least more than we have) about the PSU incident "pedophile enablers" is just as silly, I suppose, as calling others "outrage addicts." If you want to amend your post to be more even-sided on that point, fine, but when you get angry about one generalization and not the other, your point gets diminished, at the very least. What it looks like to me is an attempt to rhetorically disarm anyone who would disagree with the course of the discussion.

In any case, I think there can actually be such a style of engagement (and being) as outrage addiction - that we get a distinct pleasure from being outraged by particular incidents, and that perhaps the media is even organized today such that it fulfills and intensifies that pleasure. I don't at all agree that it is a pejorative like "tree hugger." I think it is a substantive description of a common mode of being, and it should be discussed as such.

[sabrina 1]

80. Good post, thank you.

The media feeds these reactions, the 'don't let's wait for all the facts, let's hang'm and be done with it' mob hysteria and has been doing it ever since they found out it pays. Trial by media has become par for the course, and to go against the tide, to simply ask for some reflection, to wait until all the facts are in, results in, just as you point out, being called a 'rapist supporter' or 'pedophile lover'. And in the event that a person actually does turn out to be innocent, which has happened, (see the Duke debacle, or the Oklahoma City bombing, or the DSK case) it won't matter. Those people will never retrieve their reputations.

I am for with-holding all names, on all sides, in these cases until after a conviction. The world would not end if we did not know who the victims or the accused were until the judicial process has had a chance to work. But what would the Nancy Graces of the world do then?

[October]

99. I am not one to be outraged by everything -- hence not an addict --but THIS story does outrage me.

Speak for yourself!

[Mendocino]

119. Be consistent.

I disagreed with the OP referring to dissent on their position when the pejorative "outrage addicts" was used. Please point out anywhere in this thread where I called for extreme measures against anyone involved in this case. However you call me angry and offer nothing more than your personal opinion on what a pejorative is and isn't. Look closely and you will see I'm asking for these judgments to be left out, not to be included.

[beac]

63. Nice sentiment, but rings a little hollow coming from you who

called out an "outrage addiction" "mob" upthread. :eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

64. Like I said

I think the usage is fine so long as others are still calling anybody who disagrees with them "pedophile enablers" and "child rape supporters" (both of which, by the way, are rather more insulting and disabling of conversation than "outrage addict"). There's no need for unilateral disarmament on this issue.

If we all move together toward more respectful discussion, I'm happy to join in.

:hi:

[beac]

67. I've been following this issue pretty closely on DU and

I don't think I've seen any DUers described as "child rape supporters" or "pedophile enablers". Maybe I missed those posts-- can you provide some links?

[alcibiades_mystery]

69. Well...

"Is it the nature of the crime that makes it okay in the minds of some for Paterno to have done nothing to help bring Sandusky to justice?"

In all but name...

You know what you're doing, so perhaps less coyness on that point would lead to more fruitful discussion as well.

Cheers, bud.

[beac]

71. So, you can't support your argument with even ONE actual example?

You specifically and repeatedly used quotes around the names you claimed DUers were being called.

My question as to why people think there is lower standard of reportage required for pedophilia than murder in no way implies that I think those people are "child rape enablers." I think Joe Paterno is sure as hell a "child rape enabler" but I don't think his supporters are and haven't come close to saying that, much as you'd like to twist my words.

Cheers, yourself.

[alcibiades_mystery]

78. Let me ask you a question

First, I'll say that your question is a compound question: it assumes that people who are questioning the consensus actually think there is a lower standard for pedophilia than for murder. And because it makes that assumption, it is tantamount to saying that people who disagree with you feel less intensely or are more permissive of child rape than you are. That's the assumption you are coming in with by your own words, so it's not twisting at all.

But on to the question that will settle whether that's "twisting."

Do you think that people can feel as intensely about child rape as you do and still have questions about what happened here, who knew what and when, etc.?

That's my major issue here. I suspect we'll find out a lot more once we see documents like the Grand Jury transcripts, the 1998 police report, and similar things.

In any case, I'm happy enough to have a less contentious discussion with you, but I do think there is an undertone here of trying to silence opposition by suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree - yet, anyway - on the worst possible version of events in terms of who knew what and when either cares less about pedophilia or is not as serious about it. Do you think that? Do you think that people who don't agree with you on this care less about pedophilia or are not as serious about it?

[beac]

87. Let's go back to my first question to you. I asked you to provide links

showing where, as you claimed, DUers were being literally called "child rape supporters" and "pedophile enablers."

I hadn't seen those terms anywhere, but since I had seen people saying McQueary should have savagely beaten or killed Sandusky in that shower, I supposed it was possible b/c there was a lot of chest-beating going on. I am relieved to know that, despite tensions running high, no one has actually sunk to that level of name-calling of fellow DUers.


Moving on...


For me, there doesn't need to be any further who/what/etc exposed for me to know that Joe Paterno was part of a cover-up of Jerry Sandusky's pedophilia. I can not think of a SINGLE piece of further information that could come out that would change my mind about that. Even if the 2002 incident was the ONLY thing he knew about, that's enough.

I think a cause of some misunderstanding in our debate is that there are three different groups of defenders of Paterno. One, which appears to include you, is arguing "wait and see" and I don't have any reason to think that you/they take pedophilia any less seriously than I. Another is the "but he's done so much good!" group. I think they also see pedophilia as a terrible thing, but want some special forgiveness for Paterno's role in the cover-up based on his past good deeds (the article linked to the OP falls into that category.)

I do find it hard to stomach the arguments of the third group--- that b/c Paterno reported the rape to PSU officials, he did "all he was required to do." I don't know how anyone can think that, especially since Sandusky wasn't a PSU employee at the time. I definitely WANT to believe that some kind of traumatized unwillingness to see that an American football idol has feet of clay is driving that group's defense of Paterno. It was to THAT third group that my pedophilia vs. murder question was addressed. Perhaps it would have been better expressed as "If Paterno knew Sandusky was a murderer, would it still have been okay for him to remain silent?"

[alcibiades_mystery]

116. First off, I want to thank you for a classy and civil post

I desperately want this to go in a civil way, but I will myself admit to getting hostile when I feel piled up upon, and I wish I was a better person that way.

In terms of your classification, I think you're correct on the three types. However, I think type three is exceedingly rare, but supposed as universal. Probably, most people are type one being mistaken for type three. I wouldn't even classify it as "wait and see," though that's probably substantively correct. I would classify it, rather, as "hey, wait a minute here...what are we actually looking at." And the more I look at the Grand Jury presentment, the less clear it seems to be precisely on Victim #2.

The good thing is that this stuff will be cleared up. There is a grand jury transcript which will become public. There are documents at PSU that will become public. And if it turns out that McQueary walked into Paterno's house and said, "Coach, I saw Jerry raping this kid, no doubt," I will be right there with you. But I don't see that at this point. There are odd aporias in the presentment that just don't add up for me. If I was a betting man, I'd say this: as more information comes out, the cases against Paterno, Curley, and Schultz will look much less damning. If the opposite happens, I'll be the first one here admitting I was wrong. At this point, I think there's something desperately off in that Victim #2 write up that has colored the whole controversy. It's just not there yet for me.

Let me say these additional things: First, I believe there is a rape culture. I believe rape is horrendously under-reported in precisely the way people are claiming has happened in this case. Indeed, as far as I'm concerned, this is beyond dispute. Second, I do believe that there is an "outrage culture" fed by the media. As you very generously suggest that not everybody who disagrees with you cares less about child rape, I'll also agree that not everybody outraged about this is partaking in an outrage culture. But I think some are.

Last point of this very long-winded post: I attended Penn State for graduate school. I lived in State College. I know the institution and the students. I've even been to Second Mile events. There is a 99% at Penn State, too: they're the students and faculty and staff and administrators who are trying, in a small way, to make the world better through their research and teaching and learning and even their ordinary work. If some of us who know the place and know the people get angry from time to time during this, I hope you'll understand that we're trying, we're really trying, but we're going to defend the 99% of PSU. We have to.

[beac]

118. And thank you for your civil reply.

I know some people have been heaping contempt on all things PSU. Please know that I am not one of them.

Was I impressed with the rioting, "We Don't Care"-chanting students? No. Do I think that minority of young people (most of whom will likely live to be ashamed of their participation) represents PSU as a whole? Absolutely not.

I attended a school many years ago that had a scandal of a different sort with a school leader. It was awful the way some people and the media went after the institution as a whole (and the students, teachers and staff had NOTHING to do with the scandal AT ALL), so I do understand the pain of seeing an institution you love torn to shreds in the streets.

It seems we are on the same side with regard to the over-arching issues in this case and the culture at large. I have appreciated the chance to dial down the emotions and get to that truth.

Thank you and peace.




edited for typo

[sabrina 1]

96. See the last post in this thread.

Implication that if people want the judicial process to play out, it is 'apologia for rape'. I've seen plenty of comments like that, not just regarding this crime.

[Whisp]

60. he was an accomplice to child rape.

if not for his zip.com lips, some boys would have been saved from the Sandusky animal.

fuck joe and the hoity toity footballness he rode in on.

[jakefrep]

62. No, he wasn't

Jerry Sandusky is the criminal here, not Joe Paterno.

[beac]

65. No Paterno didn't commit a crime. He just helped cover it up.

I wonder if Sandusky had committed a murder and, presented with proof of it, Paterno did nothing more than tell PSU officials, if he would still have so many defenders.

Is it the nature of the crime that makes it okay in the minds of some for Paterno to have done nothing to help bring Sandusky to justice?

[Ohio Joe]

68. Really?

Are you aware he knew in 2002 what Sandusky was doing?

Are you aware he sat on the board of The Second mile and let Sandusky continue to have kids over night?

Are you aware that he sent Sandusky out as a scout to recruit high school kids?

Are you aware he never once called the police?

Which part of that is not out right helping a child molester get to his prey?

He knew... He admits this. Not only did he do nothing, he put Sandusky in a position to be with children and commit his crimes.

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[October]

101. Open your own eyes. /nt

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ohio Joe]

105. So you are ok that he did nothing?

It's good that he put an active pedophile alone with kids? What a fucked up thing to approve of.

[jakefrep]

107. I didn't approve of anything.

Joe Paterno wasn't raping anybody.

[Ohio Joe]

109. ahhh... So enabling child rape is not a crime?

One has to actualy commit the rape... Amazingly fucked up.

[uppityperson]

66. Unrec for the first line insult. If you are going to share info, best not to start out that way. eom

[apocalypsehow]

72. UnRec for all the glaringly obvious reasons. Absolutely unreal this defense of the indefensible. n/t

[markpkessinger]

121. You are an emotional bully and a self-righteous prig...

... and it is past time someone called you, and everybody else who has engaged in this tactic in the context of the Penn State thread, out on it. I have not seen anyone, anywhere on this list, least of all Melissaf, remotely try to defend what happened at Penn State. All the OP did was to present a slightly different perspective for consideration, while very clearly conveying that she was not offering it by way of an excuse for anything the folks at PSU did or failed to do. In your response, you engage in the same tactic many on the far right are so famous for: refusing to recognize any views but your own has having any legitimacy whatsoever, and drawing a moralistic line where anybody who tries to present an alternative viewpoint is immediately castigated as proferring or promotion a position that the other person has in NO WISE proffered or promoted, and which is every bit as abhorrent to that person as it is to you or anybody else. It is EXACTLY the same thing as Tea Partiers calling anybody who supports government spending on any kind of social welfare program a "socialist", or those conservatives who, during the Bush Administration, accused anyone who dared criticize any aspect of the administration's bullshit war on terror as a terrorist sympathizer. There is not a SHRED of difference between that and what you are doing here. It's reductionist, binary, black & white, self-righteous moralism hiding behind a purported concern for the abused children in this case. But moralism is primarily about self-satisfied, superior smugness, and not one bit about genuine morality. Get off your damned high horse!

[apocalypsehow]

122. Ohhhh, Mark! You wound me, sir. Does this mean we can't be friends?

:shrug:

[fishwax]

74. we still don't know much of anything about what Paterno knew and when

Hopefully the investigation will bring more details to light. If the police report on the 1998 investigation were made public, we would probably know a lot more.

As it stands, we do know that he heard from an eyewitness whom he had reason to trust that Sandusky had been "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy" and that he didn't do enough to ensure that the victim was okay or to prevent Sandusky from doing the same thing in the future. And we know that Sandusky continued to have access to Penn State football facilities. That justifies disgust, no matter what Paterno's reputation beforehand.

Further investigation may in fact reveal that he knew about the 1998 incident. That would be all the more horrific. I do understand why people have speculated along those lines, but we don't really know yet. There have been plenty of people (I'm not speaking exclusively of DU here, as I've also seen it elsewhere) who not only judge Paterno based on the assumption that he knew and covered up all along but also judge those who are waiting for such facts to actually emerge. That's unfortunate, but I suppose not particularly unusual or unique to this particular issue.

[Ohio Joe]

76. What we do know for fact

He knew in 2002 and told his boss then. He never told the police. He knew his boss never told police. He sat on the board of The Second Mile, while he knew, and continued to let Sandusky be around children, including over nights. He sent Sandusky out to recruit kids up until a few weeks ago or so. These are established facts and I can not even blue sky any excuse that would mitigate in the least Paterno's silence.

[fishwax]

77. most of those are established facts

The statement about recruiting is not, but whether or not that's true doesn't change the shame of the others.

[Ohio Joe]

79. It is being reported he attended a football camp for Polynesian players in Utah

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/sandusky-attended-a-football-camp-last-summer-selling-the-idea-of-penn-state-to-recruits/2011/11/11/gIQAzsqDDN_story_1.html

I have seen nothing to contradict or cast any doubt on this report but you are correct, even without it, it changes nothing.

[fishwax]

81. I've heard that the camp denies Sandusky was there

Although there's far from overwhelming evidence either way. http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/HaireoftheDog/archives/2011/11/12/all-poly-camp-says-sandusky-did-not-attend-football-camp.

The recruiting story has been odd--it originally broke when a South Carolina high school player said that Sandusky had been to observe him at practice in the spring. Then the high school's coach and athletic director both said that they had not ever been aware of Sandusky coming to practice. Then the new report was that the meeting took place at the camp in Utah.

McQueary was, in addition to being the WR coach, the recruiting coordinator for Penn State, so if Sandusky actually was dispatched by PSU as a recruiting tool, that would look even worse for him. But I'm not sure whether the camp visit ever happened or what role Paterno/Penn State had in it if in fact it did happen.

[Ohio Joe]

85. I accept that as casting doubt/possibly refuting it - nt

[divineorder]

112. Could Sandusky have been piggybacking on this?

Think of all the "agents" tangentially connected to a company or program who pass out business cards to prospects. Sometimes to fleece, sometimes to seduce. Given the rest of the story, he could have posed as someone with influence to get a kid into the football program, even if he had no formal title anymore. Because there were no sanctions, and the world didn't know he was fired instead of retired, he would have had little problem getting access to players and promising them he could get them on the team.

He could have also lied to school officials as well and told them he was a recruiter of sorts, someone who could at least recommend their playing kid to Penn State. A former coach, he would have been very convincing in his role.

[October]

103. I can barely stand what we do know as FACT where Paterno et al are concerned.

I cannot defend what he has already admitted to!

[WinkyDink]

82. It's actually backwards. It should read: "Paterno had a great run, about a decade longer than he

should've."

See how that works? 1998. THINK ABOUT THAT.

I'm a Nittany Lion, and all that comes with Lion Pride. But even I know JoePa was one arrogant S.O.B., never mind that he walked home after every home game. He was testy, and that was before he was even eighty (!).

[pangaia]

83. Less than 3 months...

until pitchers and catchers report... can't wait !!! :>)))

[alcibiades_mystery]

84. Heh heh heh

:thumbsup:

[lame54]

88. the ultimate irony - he may destroy the very institution he was trying to protect...

if he dropped the dime on the guy right away there would be no scandal - just one scumbag arrested

[October]

102. +1 So true! /nt

[handmade34]

89. some perspective...

Enough about Joe Paterno; he will be dealt with...

I posted a few days ago an article about the United States having the highest rate of child abuse and child deaths of any industrialized country.

Nobody cared.

This artificial outrage over Joe Paterno when:

A child is abused or neglected every 6 minutes in the United States and each day 5 children die from abuse of neglect in the United States...

This is so much bigger than Joe Paterno and until the outrage is there for every child molested and/or abused it feels like just outrage addicts using up time...

[msanthrope]

93. I get tired of rape apologia on DU. nt

[jakefrep]

97. How is it "rape apologia"?

[msanthrope]

100. Really, you can't figure this one out? nt

[jakefrep]

106. You appear to be the one who can't figure it out.

Joe Paterno didn't rape anybody. How is defending him apologizing for rape.

[msanthrope]

120. Joe Paterno aided and abetted a rapist. He sat on the Board of his foundation.

He allowed him to recruit for Penn State, as late as last year.

He's like a Catholic bishop, who merely moved the problem from parish to parish.

[SkyDaddy7]

113. We know he did not do what was right...

So, an excellent career as football coach does NOTHING to earn him any sympathy, period! Sorry, I was a huge fan of his but football is MEANINGLESS when it comes to this!

Joe deserves exactly the harsh treatment he is getting and more! They should tear down all the shrines Penn State has built him on campus & elsewhere & he should be forever shamed! If Penn State does not do that then they will always be "Pedo State" to me!

EDIT: Just wanted to add I am a huge football fan but I am so sick & tired of how we treat football players & coaches like they are GODS...Sorry but football is just a sport nothing more!

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

114. Some more perspective on Paterno

If there is any presumption it is the other way, against the holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority, still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it.
(John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton)

Don't think the OP has a clue about the 1998 investigation and the "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature" in 2002 Paterno has testified to.

According to Paterno's own grand jury testimony, then graduate assistant Mike McQueary told the coach he had witnessed Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature" to a young boy.

Paterno never needed hindsight
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/11/11/paterno-never-needed-hindsight/

[Tuesday Afternoon]

117. what a load of crap.