Is it true that pedophiles cannot be rehabilitated?

[leftyladyfrommo]

Is that always true?

Boy, if that's true then that predilection must really be hardwired into that person's personality. And if that's the case they should all be living together on an island some where way out in the ocean.

Can they ever learn not to act on their compulsions?

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. That's what they say

Of course castration would work.

[Ship of Fools]

2. Castration as punishment, not as deterrent (of course).

It's pretty well known now that rape is a power play, not about sex -- whether it's the
rape of a woman or of a child. Disgusting by any definition, of course.

[leftyladyfrommo]

4. Or that 70 year old man that was just out for his morning walk.

He was mugged and raped by a gang of boys.

So much anger out there.

[OneGrassRoot]

11. Was the man a known pedophile or soomething?

I'm sorry, I don't know of the incident you're referring to; trying to connect the dots. Thanks. :)

[former9thward]

41. Man was not a pedophile.

He was out for a walk and four men in their 20s grabbed him and took him into van. They asked for money and he said he had none. The four raped him. The police have classified it a hate crime because the men were black and they shouted racial epitaphs at him while they raped him. http://www.ktsm.com/local/70-year-old-man-raped-nearly-to-death

[OneGrassRoot]

46. Dear God, I can't even read. Thanks for the info though. :( n/t

[Odin2005]

16. Actually, the rate of violent crime has been declining for 20 years.

[Schema Thing]

22. It isn't well known. It's part reality, but largely mythology.

Pedophiles really are *sexually* attracted to pre-pubescent children. They don't get a sexual response from simply thinking about coercing a child to go out and dig a ditch for the pedophile.

If you could somehow turn off that sexual stimulation, they would not rape children.

[Ship of Fools]

75. I get your point. I guess I may be using the word "rape" too broadly --

although, to me, any inappropriate physical contact (not just penetration) should be described as "rape."
I've always felt he words "sexual assault" water down the action, imo. Maybe I should probably rethink this one ...
But I do understand pedophiles are actually attracted to children. Thanks for clarifying! :)

[pipi_k]

36. It's not always about rape, though...

My child molesting BIL used his mouth and hands.

:(

[leftyladyfrommo]

3. I kind of wonder about guys likeCain or Thomas?

They don't see anything wrong with sexual harrassment.

How people can just ignore that side of their personality is beyond me. "Sexual predaotrs of any kind are really dangerous people.

[TheDebbieDee]

20. I disagree. They know that sexual harrassment is wrong

because they go to great lengths to deny or hide the behavior - they are cognizant that they will be punished for the behavior if they admit to it.

[arcane1]

5. It might work on some of the men, but not the women n/t

[Schema Thing]

23. why wouldn't chemical castration

work on some of the women, just as it would on some of the men?

[Cirque du So-What]

17. Castration is not the answer

as sick impulses remain that can be satisfied in ways I care not to enumerate.

[Seedersandleechers]

28. I was working at the Johnson County Jail (nurse)

when this man Herbert Fox was castrationed. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4179/is_20020310/ai_n11778476/ After his castration he was free to leave. I don't really know what became of him afterwards.

[TorchTheWitch]

71. No, it doesn't

A working penis isn't necessary to sexually violate someone.

[alphafemale]

6. I've convinced this shark to be a vegetarian.

Would you get in the tank and feed him his carrots?

Thanks.

[bemildred]

7. Seems unlikely, doesn't it?

I don't even know what rehabilitted would mean for pedos. I suppose it would just mean that they "never do that again".

But anyway, it would seem that the way to bet is that if you took all the people who have been labelled pedo legally, you would find that some "do it again" and some don't. It would be interesting to see some real studies, but you probably not get good data, since pedos would be afraid to be candid.

[valerief]

8. Sorry but big pharma only gives us Viagra not Unviagra. nt

[X_Digger]

77. Saltpeter would be the equivalent, I think..

And I know there are other chemical concoctions that inhibit arousal.

[Lint Head]

9. They used to give soldiers saltpeter or saltpetre to keep them from having sexuals desires.

Wonder if it's used on pedophiles.

[Major Nikon]

25. That's a myth and it wouldn't work anyway

[Lint Head]

78. Thanks. I had heard that when I was drafted. Apparently it was made as a prank

on new recruits.

[saras]

10. No, not at all - it's current dogma, and enforced by our current system...

...which has none of the stuff in place that would be required for successful rehabilitation, which would likely take a decade or more, since you're talking about serious restructuring of actual neurons and dendrites, not just thoughts and feelings.

There's no profit in it, and there's no drugs that do anything about it, so it's irrelevant in the current political climate. The fact that they're pretty much our only agreed-on pariah class doesn't help things any either.

By the way, if we're so good with psychological pharmaceuticals, how come so few of them do what we want, and the prescription procedure is "we'll just keep trying them until we find one that works."? What would you do if you went to the hospital with liver disease, and instead of getting a bunch of tests on your liver, etc., they just said "we'll try out all our newest liver drugs on you until we find one that works."

[Odin2005]

13. Uh, your brain is a LOT more complicated than your liver.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

50. The general consensus among the psychology community is they are not.

I love that you think you know more than the experts. Pedophilia is like brain damage that does not repair itself. A switch is flipped that can't be unflipped.

[TheWraith]

12. Broadly speaking, no it's not true, although it depends on what you're looking at.

Despite the mythology of "stranger danger" and periodic high profile examples like Sandusky, most children who are molested are done to by a family member or someone similar. The problem here is that many cases are either never fully reported, or not followed up on, however many are. So contrary to the popular public image, "career" child molesters like Sandusky are in fact, the exception rather than the rule. Even if you stipulate that someone like him cannot or will not be rehabilitated, he still represents a small fraction of child molesters.

From a statistical point of view, a study done starting in 1994 showed that out of 4,300 child molesters released from prison that year in 15 states, an estimated 3.3 percent were rearrested for another sex crime against a child within three years. Even if you assume that that figure quintuples when counting later or unreported crimes, it still only goes up to around 16.5 percent.

That being the case though, what constitutes "full" rehabilitation? Of that, nobody is entirely sure, so it's kind of a craps shoot. Evidence and common sense both show that there are plenty of child molesters who never reoffend, but whether that constitutes "rehabilitation" is in the eye of the beholder.

[XemaSab]

54. I'm also curious about how they defined "molester" in that study

Maybe if they broke down "molesters" into different categories then they could focus on rehabilitating or locking up the different categories.

[wizstars]

72. I know how we can cure 'em, but it ain't rehabilitation....

...which is pointless for what they do to a child.

It's the one thing I would consider the death penalty for.

[Odin2005]

14. For the most part, yes.

They rationalize their sick desires, they think there is nothing wrong with their behavior. trying to "fix" a pedophile is like trying to argue with a Birther or a 9/11 Twoofer.

[Politicalboi]

45. Putting sick pedophiles with 9/11 truthers

There is no comparison. One is a sick mother fucker, and the other just questions the actions or lack of actions of our government.

[Odin2005]

55. I am comparing how both rationalize their nonsense.

[mike_c]

15. the actual recidivism rate for sex offenders is quite low, despite the myth...

...that the cannot prevent themselves from offending again and again. Apparently it's just that-- a myth.

[elocs]

18. Here's a thought: why not spend a half hour or so online and research it a little?

You might actually learn something about your question other than just the opinions of DUers.
Your point is to actually learn some facts and answers other than just opinions isn't it?

[bemildred]

24. Opinions of DUers are as good as anybodies.

And statistics are never "facts", though the data they are based on might be.

[Douglas Carpenter]

19. treatment reduces the likelihood of re-offending.

If a person is genuinely a pedophile - someone who simply is exclusively or almost exclusively attracted to children or young adolescents - this is probably not a matter of their conscious choice - so their ability to simply cease having such feelings is probably minimal. But this does not mean that there is no hope of them learning to control their impulses:



http://www.vnews.com/sexcrimes/recidivism.htm

[Major Nikon]

29. That is for sex offenders, which is a bigger pool than child molesters

The long term recidivism rates for child molesters is very high, and that's just the ones who are reconvicted. Since the reporting rate for child molestation is extremely low, the actual recidivism rate is undoubtedly much higher than reports typically show.

[TheWraith]

32. Can you link to a study which proves those statements? nt

[Major Nikon]

34. This is your best bet

http://www.google.com/search?q=recidivism+rates+child+molesters

There are many different types of child molesters and the recidivism rate varies by the type. There are a lot of different studies out there and all of them I know about say the same thing which is compared to other types of crimes, the recidivism rate is extremely high. This paper does a good job of explaining those things.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/163390.pdf

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. very interesting article - but even this study reports a recidivism rate less than what many believe

and that therapy reduces recidivism even further:

A recent meta-analysis of 12 sex offender treatment studies (N = 1,313)found that the overall recidivism rate for untreated sex offenders was 27 percent, while for treated offenders it was 19 percent—an apparent treatment effect of 8 percent.These statistics suggest that treatment can reduce child molester recidivism.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/163390.pdf

[Major Nikon]

51. There's a couple of problems with this hypothesis

One is that they are comparing sex offender treatment programs to child molestation, and I just don't think that's a valid comparison. Rapists and child molesters are two different types of criminals with different motivations. It's hard to imagine that treatments which may or may not be effective for one group will be effective for another. Another problem is the long term benefits of treatment. What makes many child molesters unique is that it's not at all unusual for them to repeat 20-25 years later which is not so typical of other types of offenders. If you look at the chart on exhibit 6, it shows a 52% charge rate for offenders over a 25 year period. When you consider the reporting rate for child molestation is extremely low, it's pretty safe to assume that the actual failure rate for untreated offenders is much higher. Now consider the practicality of life-long treatment for child molesters. As the paper says, there's no easy answers or shortcuts.

[Schema Thing]

21. I strongly suspect it's not true in many, maybe even most, cases

But I also think that in some cases it really is so hard-wired (though I wouldn't use the term "personality" for where it is hardwired) that the person is unsafe to have among children - ever.



I read, several years ago in the Dallas Morning News, a story about a psychological treatment program that worked with underage offenders and had good, *very good* as compared to untreated, success at stopping these offenders from re-offending.

[TheKentuckian]

26. That position is probably not accurate but it is easier and more emotionally satisfying

to pretend it is so we can practice our best torture and state sponsored murder techniques on the most easily hated folk around.

[SoCalDem]

27. Since the preference for children instead of peers, is probably innate to those people

"Learning" to not act on compulsions is entirely different from the fact that recidivism occurs secretly, and only when they are caught again, do we know for sure that they have done it again.

You can "train" a predator to not eat meat, as long as you control their food intake, but the minute they escape, they will go back to predation..

There is just a segment of society, for whatever reason, that will prey on children.

The "solution" is to teach ALL children, early-on that they are never wrong to "tell"..and then to separate those offenders from society for as long as possible.

Parents need to realize too, that predators know where to "find" their prey

They are not always (are they ever?) the creepy guy in a raincoat who randomly approaches children.

They are OFTEN:

the coach
the teacher
the scout leader
the camp counselor
the uncle
the step-dad
the dad

Single Moms need to recognize too, that a man who relishes the idea of a ready-made family and who pays an inordinate amount of attention to her adolescent children may not be all the interested in HER, but is looking to "hunt" her children.

Blended families are common now, and MOST men will not abuse their step children, but this is the easiest way for a predator to operate. Too many Moms are eager to have their new guy "bond" with the kids, and too often those kids are afraid to ruin Mom's new happiness:(

[NNN0LHI]

30. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain that in such a thoughtful way

That is one of the most informative posts I have ever read here. I will be sending this info to my daughter with my two grand kids to read.

Thank you again. You really helped.

Don

[SoCalDem]

31. You are very welcome

I suffered at the hands of one of these creeps from age 6 to age 13, so I feel compelled to help when I can.

I taught my boys from as soon as they could talk to NEVER let anyone touch them anywhere that underwear covered.. that was basic. (obvious exclusions for baths & doctor visits etc)
(not talking here about the natural curiosity that little kids have about each other's bodies)

Parents need to be in the exam room with kids until they are old enough to ask Mom to step outside (young teen boys do not want Mom there:evilgrin: )..but Dad could start taking them them.

We also talked about "gut feelings" and "icky feelings"..and anytime they were told that it was a secret..

Little kids like secrets and they are easily flattered when told they are a "big boy/big girl"/special friend, etc..

Parents also need to not go ballistic when they catch children of the same age "playing doctor".. If they get the impression that it's shameful, they may close down and not tell if someone other than their little playmate gets "curious".

[NNN0LHI]

33. I had no idea how prevalent this was

Sometimes I felt that having a very strict mother was a curse. Now I don't think so. She watched my brother and I like a hawk. She knew pretty much where we were at every minute of the day. When I think back she didn't trust anyone alone with us. She never learned to drive until she was nearly 40. And only then because she wasn't about to let us boys get into a car with someone she didn't know to bring us to little league or anywhere else. She was going to take us. She didn't want to have to learn to drive at her age either but she did. Her mother never did learn to drive. We were never allowed any sleepovers at friends houses either. She said they can come here but you sleep in your own bed. That is what she said. I didn't get it back then. I thought she was just being mean. Now I understand where she was coming from.

Very sorry to hear about you having to suffer at the hands of one of these creeps too. I feel so sorry for any child who goes through this. :(

Take care and see you later.

Don

[SoCalDem]

42. You can't be too careful, I guess

I'd rather be thought of as a "mean parent" than a careless parent.

It is a fine line though, because as kids age, they have to have some freedom, but if they know the boundaries and are confident enough , they usually manage well..

Our boys always had us there at practices/games/events, so they never had to attach themselves to others for praise & attention.

Predators look for the unattached child/the lonely one who might welcome attention.

[kath]

69. your mom sounds a bit over-the-top in her protectiveness - enough to make me wonder if she herself

was a victim of sexual abuse...

Kids DO need to be able to develop some independence as they grow older.

[ScreamingMeemie]

37. You have underlined exactly why I will remain a widowed mom

until my son is grown. One, he is more important than anything anyone else could offer. Two, I could never really trust one's intentions for the reasons you listed above... and I guess I'll throw in three, which is no one could compare to MrG anyway.

[SoCalDem]

40. Many of my friends did not even introduce a "new man" until they had dated exclusively

for MONTHS.. and even then, the kids were never alone with the "new guy".

[kath]

68. you forgot "the youth minister" - a lot of child molestation occurs in fundie churches.

Oh, and of course "the priest" in the case of Catholics.

[laundry_queen]

73. Good post.

Single Moms need to recognize too, that a man who relishes the idea of a ready-made family and who pays an inordinate amount of attention to her adolescent children may not be all the interested in HER, but is looking to "hunt" her children.

This is the main reason that I have decided to not date until my children are grown. I have too many friends that were molested by stepdads and one of the biggest problems they have in addition to the whole molestation is the fact that their mothers didn't protect them, and they felt their mothers put the stepdad ahead of them. It really messed them up. I simply don't trust myself to be *that* good of a judge of character (after all I picked a narcissist/sociopath for my first husband) and I want to make sure my kids don't have to deal with that. Of course if Mr. Right came along I wouldn't say no, but I'm not searching and definitely not actively dating, plus I've really educated myself on warning signs/red flags for those who might be narcissists/sociopaths/compulsive liars/predators. I agree, it's something single moms really have to watch out for. So many (myself included) have been burned and have low self esteem that we are very likely to be vulnerable to a predator that knows how to flatter and say or do the right things to get us to be completely taken. I can't say I wouldn't be vulnerable so it's better to put off dating, for now.

[MzShellG]

35. Question is......

What you leave your child alone with supposedly rehabilitated proven pedophile?

[TreasonousBastard]

38. For actual pedophiles, as opposed to other sex offenders, probably true...

The norm is for us to be sexually attracted to adults, or at least postpubescent members, of the opposite sex. But, that's just the norm, and not necessarily where all of us fit. Not is it absolute for most of us-- just a few bell curves where we all fit in somewhere.

We have known for years that homosexual attractions are hardwired in many, and although that may not be the "norm" and doesn't fit in too easily with all that survival of the species stuff, it is perfectly natural for many and nothing wrong with it. That's one side of that bell curve that we're finally accepting.

While we don't see anything wrong with homosexuality, however, being sexually attracted to children is a far different thing, but likely the result of another bell curve that has similar causes, but is, fortunately, far more skewed. It is a sociopathic hardwiring that is likely as difficult to change as any other, but deserves far more study.

One wonders, though, if we find out how to "cure" pedophiles, what other things will we be able to "cure"?

[Warren Stupidity]

39. No it is not true.

This is mythology. Recidivism rates are below average. Treatment actually does help.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

52. Seriously?

Where do you get your information?
Consensus is once a pedophile, always a pedophile. The only way to keep them from it is to keep them away from children. Your comment is pure mythology.

[TheWraith]

53. Mythology based on recidivism rates? As opposed to "consensus"?

Seriously, do some research. You're arguing science is myth and belief is science.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

60. The point of my post was saying you are wrong.

Consensus in the PSYCHOLOGICAL Community is that there is NO CURE for the condition.
I was using big words, but what I meant was you are not correct.

[AngkorWot]

64. Psst. Hey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_offender#Recidivism_rates

[Major Nikon]

67. The question is considerably more complex

The link you listed quotes a study that only looked at 3 years past conviction, which isn't very helpful when it comes to recidivism rates for pedophiles who commonly reoffend many years past their initial conviction. Pedophiles also fall into many categories with wide variances of recidivism rates based on type. Cases of incest have a much lower rate of recidivism than someone like Sandusky who molested young boys outside his family. Recidivism rates for certain types of pedophiles are as high as 50%, which is certainly conservative given the extremely low reporting and conviction rate for such offenses.

http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/82/4/457.full#sec-17

[YellowRubberDuckie]

76. LOL

:rofl: wikipedia is as much of a reference for this as the bible is that God exists. But thanks for the laugh.
Here's a resource from the mayo clinic.
http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/82/4/457.full
Since there is such a stigma attached, there is no such thing as accurate statistics on recidivism because this is one of the most under reported crimes in existence.

[H2O Man]

43. 99.99999% true.

[TheCowsCameHome]

44. Call 1-800-282-2882 Monday and ask for Rush.

He'll give you first hand information.

[ZombieHorde]

48. I sometimes wonder if pedophilia is an orientation, like straight and gay,

but I am not a psychiatrist.

[FloridaJudy]

56. If you confuse homosexuality with pedophilia

You're not even living on the same planet as I am.

[ZombieHorde]

66. I have not confused the two, but I still would not rule out your alternative planet theory. nt

[chrisa]

59. I don't think so, no.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FloridaJudy]

57. It's a sickness, NOT an orientation

Being attracted to another adult member of your own sex is normal. Forcing your attentions on someone too young to resist is a perversion. If anyone thinks that child rape - or any kind of rape - is just another normal variation like homosexuality, then you're obviously not someone I'd care to associate with.

[chrisa]

58. It's not their "Orientation." It's a mental illness.

Sometimes from being raped themselves, or sometimes not. That's why I believe they can be helped, given they receive extremely intensive therapy before they are set free in the real world.

Does a serial rapist, for example, have "rapist" as an orientation? Of course not. I don't think pedophilia is hard-wired.

[chrisa]

61. I think they can be.

I personally think that classifying them as some kind of inhuman monster only hurts our ability to fight against them and/or rehabilitate them. I think some of this is distancing on humanity's part, because it's such an evil act. People want to believe that they're some sort of inhuman entity that is pure evil, and that trustworthy people around us would never be pedophiles.

I'm not saying we should actually treat them with baby gloves - that's the worst thing you should do - they should be punished for what they have done. On the other hand, calling them monsters and saying that they can never be rehabilitated is also extremely bad because, with this attitude, they'll just be thrown back on the street to do the same thing again.

I don't know the answers. There are people who are paid six figure salaries that can't even figure the answers out.

[RZM]

62. I think sexual preferences very difficult not to act on

I do believe that most sexual preferences are biological and the propensity to act upon them depends upon the individual. Some people have a lot of difficulty controlling their urges, others do not. Most people probably fall somewhere in between.

If I were transported to another reality where my own preferences were proscribed and hated the way those of pedophiles are, I can't say for sure how I would behave. Probably I would try to conform, but I couldn't guarantee that I would be able to control myself at all times for my entire life. I consider myself lucky that my own preferences are considered normal in our society.

The problem with pedophilia (and rape) is that both are coercive in nature and thus must be proscribed. We simply can't have people running around taking advantage of others sexually, just as we can't have them running around murdering and assaulting people. Of course, in a non-1984 situation, these things will always happen, but when the offenders are caught, they need to be isolated from the rest of the population.

And herein lies a huge problem. Sex offenders (and many others) are routinely subjected to inhumane treatment when they are locked up. They are beaten, extorted, raped, and sometimes killed by other inmates simply because they are sex offenders. In some situations, the only option for a pedophile to avoid death in prison is to enter protective custody or sometimes even solitary confinement. I believe this constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. And that often goes for other inmates as well, including gay inmates, physically weaker inmates, and those who are inexperienced with prison or not affiliated with criminal or gang culture. Often there are racial components to all of this as well.

I don't know what the solution is here. I believe that sex offenders must be removed from society, but I am deeply troubled by the dynamics of the places they are removed to. I think we need major prison reform that implements steps to prevent the most predatory inmates from preying so viciously on the weaker ones, especially sex offenders.

[kenny blankenship]

63. They're maybe not as incorrigible as bankers and oil barons

[laylah]

65. I did a term paper on just that subject

13 years ago. I researched a lot of information about prison rehabilitation programs for pedophiles/sex offenders. Firstly, I was appalled to find there were little, to NO, programs for said offenders.

Secondly, the one thing that has stuck with me all of these years was the statement of a therapist in an Oregon (IF I remember correctly) prison: "The only thing that will work to heal these people is the Magnum therapy. You put a gun to their heads and pull the trigger."

Sad, just plain sad, all the way around. :cry:

[BlueIris]

74. Wow, someone who actually researched this. Would you care to post your paper?

Or at least its bibliography? I would like to read it. If not, please consider PM-ing me.

[wizstars]

70. If one ever touched a kid of mine, rehab would be the farthest thing from his mind.

Mere survival would be all he could hope for......


Jus' sayin'............