Obama: Cities must make own decisions on protests & how much force to use

[Karmadillo]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/11/15/obama_cities_must_make_own_decisions_on_protests/

Obama: Cities must make own decisions on protests
By Ben Feller
AP White House Correspondent / November 15, 2011

ABOARD AIR FORCE ONE—President Barack Obama's spokesman is suggesting the president believes it's up to New York and other municipalities to decide how much force to use in dealing with Occupy Wall Street demonstrations.

Spokesman Jay Carney also says Obama hopes the right balance can be reached between protecting freedom of assembly and speech with the need to uphold order and safeguard public health and safety.

Carney spoke to reporters Tuesday as Obama flew to Australia. He was asked whether Obama had been following the early-morning police raid on Zuccotti Park in New York, where Occupy Wall Street protesters have camped out for weeks.

Carney said the president was "aware of it."

more...

[eleny]

1. The cities appear to be coordinatnig their responses

Btw, that's being discussed on Olbermann's program as I type.

[Leopolds Ghost]

79. "AND HOW MUCH FORCE TO USE" in dealing with them -- Obama's FBI and DHS are coordinating this.

OWS people reported over a week ago that the FBI had this in the works.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Newsjock]

3. Consistently on message!

ABOARD AIR FORCE ONE—President Barack Obama's spokesman is suggesting the president believes it's up to San Francisco and other municipalities to decide how much force to use in dealing with medical marijuana dispensaries.

Oh wait, no. Silly me.

[Fumesucker]

4. ...

[SidDithers]

13. Getting a lot of mileage out of that picture, eh?...nt

Sid

[villager]

5. Ah, Obama -- brave as he's ever been!

n/t

[slay]

39. +1

yep

[Newest Reality]

6. I read that as ...

a subtle support for force only because he used the term "how much". Well, it is a spokesman and we did not get it from the horse's mouth. Does that suggest some distancing, as well?

So more hope? There appears to me to be an extreme imbalance, in an "in your face" kind of way, between the right to peaceful assembly and speech vs. overuse of riot police and overblown concerns for public health and safety.

Excessive force used on peaceful protesters would be worthy of admonishment. A hope and a wish there would have been some nice dust in the political wind.

No, I am not expecting, nor would I want, support for the movement from the President. That might prove to be conflicting, rather than helpful.

[Tesha]

7. Isn't that special? Does it say that in the Constitution, Mr. Constitutional Scholar?

Mr. Peace Prize winner?

Tesha

[treestar]

8. Er, yes

How about checking out the case law regarding federalism?

Jesus on a Trailer Hitch! FCOL!

[Tesha]

16. Funny how it doesn't apply when we're talking about, say, medical marijuana.

Obama doesn't seem nearly as keen on States' Rights/
Local Jurisdictional rights in that case, does he?

Tesha

[sabrina 1]

40. Amazing, isn't it? It's 'up to the states' when it comes to

beating up peaceful protesters, but up to the Federal Government when it involves legal marijuana. I am interested to see the explanation for the difference. But won't hold my breath.

Good point, btw. They can't have it both ways, much as they would like to.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[Tesha]

85. I wasn't aware that use of "The Bully Pulpit" was regulated by federal/state laws, ...

...pre-emption, or Supremacy Clause.

And Obama could certainly call-off the raids on the
dispensaries if he wished; the degree to which those
raids are being conducted seems to be discretionary.

Tesha

[frylock]

24. isn't it time to shelve that talking point, what with dispensaries being raided?

jesus on a trailer hitch, indeed.

[MisterP]

31. it's like that "Ben is Glory?" conversation from Buffy, isn't it?

[treestar]

64. See above

Good grief. If one is going to advocate passionately on a legal cause, get at least the very basics, or become aware they exist.

Otherwise, you may be being manipulated by someone higher on the food chain.

[Luminous Animal]

26. That didn't stop Robert Kennedy from making that phone call on MLK's behalf.

[treestar]

65. Huh?

No, just making phone calls to powerful people is not all it takes. That would be the rule of men, not laws.

Real life does not work the way it does on soap operas. Yes, JR just had to call his friends in high places. In the real world, you'd call that corruption.

[MFrohike]

76. There's an idea

Of course, if you actually read the cases, two things become very apparent. First, the courts are invested in the idea of federalism, while ignoring the reality that it hasn't existed as a viable theory since June 20, 1863. If that date isn't familiar, it's the day West Virginia became a state. WV was formed from part of VA without the actual consent of VA. This was in direct violation of the constitutional prohibition forbidding the dismemberment of a state against its will. Federalism and states' rights died the day the federal government had the power to carve up a state to its liking. Second, federalism is often trotted out as a means of punting tough questions from the federal government to the states. This becomes more and more apparent the more cases you read. That's not to say a case like Erie RR is a case of punting, but others definitely are.

[mazzarro]

9. IMO - Obama is not a friend to OWS

Keith Olbermann was told by Michael Moore that the administration is providing assistance to cities regarding their efforts at containing the protests and possibly shutting them down. The administration is trying to straddle the fence on this issue and does not want to back it in any overt form.

[kath]

50. He's not a friend to the people, period

only the top fraction of a percent.
Fookin' Republican.

[Poll_Blind]

10. He's a man of the people. Just not them people. nt

PB

[Zorra]

11. He's flying to Australia on some Wall St/globalist economic mission.

Why would any upstanding modern politician care about some unwashed, unruly American peasants getting beaten and arrested by police in some park somewhere while their 1st Amendment rights are thrown in the toilet? Let the upstanding republican city/state officials deal with them. They'll fix 'em, but good.

Because i-i-it's globalism, baby! Unions, national borders, and national sovereignty are for losers. Corporations rule! (Sings) "Money, it's a hit, don't give me that do goody goody bullshit, I'm in a high fidelity first class traveling set and I think I'll buy me a Lear Jet"...

Meanwhile, in other news

In a news briefing in Hawaii before Mr. Obama left for Canberra, White House Deputy Press Secretary Josh Earnest said the visit is intended to stress America's strong economic and security relationship with Australia.

"There are important economic implications in terms of the relationship that we have and the commerce that is facilitated between our two countries,"saiad Earnest. "But he will also talk about the important strategic relationship in terms of the security cooperation that we have between the United States and Australia."

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/usa/Obamas-Australia-Visit-Focuses-on-Regional-Security-133905998.html

[bigtree]

32. America’s exports to Australia

. . . amount to about $22 billion or 1.7% of overall US exports.

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_us_exports.html

He just left a summit with APEC countries who, together, account for some 61% of U.S. exports.

WH: U.S. goods exports to the broader Asia-Pacific totaled $775 billion in 2010, a 25.5 percent increase over 2009 and equal to 61 percent of total U.S. goods exports to the world. U.S. exports of agricultural products to the region totaled $83 billion in 2010 and accounted for 72 percent of total U.S. agricultural exports to the world. U.S. private services exports totaled $177 billion in 2009 (latest data available), 37 percent of total U.S. private services exports to the world. America’s small- and medium-sized enterprises alone exported $171 billion to the Asia-Pacific in 2009 (latest data available).
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/11/12/fact-sheet-united-states-trans-pacific-partnership

[Zorra]

45. Meh. "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" Mark Twain

Global free trade is by nature a profit system designed to make the 1% wealthier. We could manufacture/produce/trade within our own country, as well as export/import a few things, and do much better for the 99%. More jobs, better wages, less waste of resources.

Wall Street(s) are the big winner in the game of laissez-faire global capitalism. The 99% are the big losers. The polarization of wealth and power continues to snowball exponentially in favor of the 1% under the laissez-faire global capitalist system.

Unemployment: Sept, 1961: 6.70%

Unemployment: Sept, 2011: 9.1%

(Figures calculated using different criteria for calculation, respectively)

Top 10 US Imports from China

China’s exports to America amounted to
$337.8 billion or 16.1% of overall US imports

Top 10 US Exports to China

America’s exports to China amounted to
$69.7 billion or 5.4% of overall US exports.

Score: China: 337.8---US: 69.7

Top 10 US Imports from Australia

Australia’s exports to America amounted to
$10.6 billion or 0.5% of overall US imports.

Top 10 US Exports to Australia

America’s exports to Australia amounted to
$22.2 billion or 1.7% of overall US exports.

Score: US: 22.2---Australia: 10.6

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_us_imports.html

"Lies. Damned lies, and statistics"

[golddigger]

12. Wow! Decide how much force to use in dealing

with OWS demonstrators. So is he saying head busting, rubber bullets and gas canisters to the head against peaceful protesters is okay with him?
I guess he should have kept his mouth shut after all.

[JoePhilly]

14. What an incredibly powerful article.

OMG ... "Spokesman Jay Carney also says Obama hopes the right balance can be reached between protecting freedom of assembly and speech with the need to uphold order and safeguard public health and safety."

What a PRICK!!!!!

Where is my fainting couch!!!

[frylock]

25. what public safety and health issues require the deployment of teargas?

[JoePhilly]

74. In which part of the article does Obama or his spokesperson

recommend teargas?

There is a balance to any situation like this ... and that balance will not be uniform in all locations.

All protests, by their very nature, are contentious situations. The protesters aren't happy. The people who live and work in the area around a protest aren't happy about the protest. And the police who end up having to work longer hours aren't happy.

Grass roots protests like this one are almost destined to become very contentious. I would contrast this with the fake tea party protests. Those never became very contentious because the entire thing was manufactured. Get a permit, set up the stage, bus in some old white folks, fed them free food, have a few country singers come perform, and then bus everyone home and break down the stage.

A real grass roots movement is going to go through a phase like this one. That's just a fact. And there is nothing Obama can do or say to prevent it. And so, you are going to hear his spokesperson call for "balance" ... call for "rationality on all sides" ... call for "non-violence". But he can not more dictate what the various cities do, anymore than he can tell the protesters to go home and expect them to actually do that.

And I'll add ... its a situation like this one which gives credence to the right wing meme that liberals thought Obama was some sort of Messiah.

[frylock]

77. silence is tacit approval..

all he has to say is "i do not agree with the methods being employed to break up these peaceful demonstrations." it's that simple. it doesn't take a god to utter that statement.

[JoePhilly]

78. He has not been silent.

Let's take the statement you think he should make .... to which cities does that statement apply? And to which methods?

Or does it apply to every city and all methods ... ??

Do you think the media will let such a statement stand, or do you think they will use it to increase the tensions across the board?

Obama is going to have to stay very measured on this because to do otherwise will more likely be used to escalate the entire situation.

I'll also point out that the GOP would love for him to engage more deeply. They're primary desire in killing OWS is to make Obama the focal point of it. Its clear they hate it, but so long as it stays a movement of the people, the right wing is stuck.

My suspicion is that the right wing is trying to incite violence at these events as a way to get people to back away from the entire thing. If they can tie Obama more tightly to OWS, they know that there are numerous crazies who will go to OWS on their own and cause havoc.

In my work, I often speak about how to create real change you need both a bottom-up approach, and a top-down approach. from a distance, it might not be obvious how these will connect. But that is not the point ... the point is that what you do tactically in a bottom-up effort is very, very different in what you do on the top-down effort.

The path those two approaches take are usually not the same. But they slowly move towards each other to reach the goal.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[mmonk]

17. Trying to split that imaginary middle again. WWFDRD?

[SidDithers]

21. WWFDRD? Put the protesters in internment camps?...

Oh, no. That was just for Japanese-Americans.

Sid

[mmonk]

41. Or side with the protesters definitively with the following:

Employment, with a living wage,
Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies,
Housing,
Medical care,
Education, and,
Social security

from his economic 2nd Bill of Rights.

[jberryhill]

42. You mean like when FDR broke up Klan rallies?

Oh, wait, he appointed a klansman to the Court.

[mmonk]

57. What does that have to do with an economic protest or my statement?

Oh right, it doesn't.

[WillyT]

18. :Facepalm:

:puke:

[madfloridian]

19. But cities, states, and districts MUST be subject to Arne's national decisions.

Teachers are victims of national policy. And that seems okay.

Local rights only seem to count when OWS is involved.

[bigtree]

20. you really want the feds overtly involved in directing local law enforcement?

slippery slope, in my view

[Luminous Animal]

29. To protect people's civil rights, yes. I do believe another President was faced

with that problem.

[bigtree]

34. I'd expect the Justice Dept. to intervene

. . . if they find something the State hasn't addressed or find something which falls within their jurisdiction. That's how a President addresses issues of local law enforcement. If these incidents can't be resolved within the jurisdiction of the localities or states, I'd expect the Justice Dept. to either be petitioned or to intervene themselves. I just don't know if those avenues have been exhausted, or if there's some obstacle in the states to redress of the police actions that would invite federal intervention.

[ellisonz]

54. +50

[jberryhill]

43. Name him

Because if you are talking about enforcement of federal court orders on school desegregation, then you are going to have to show me which court order you want Obama to enforce.

[Luminous Animal]

49. Kennedy. Who made deals to protect the Freedom Riders against mob violence.

These days, the police are the mob who are committing violence.

[Modern_Matthew]

30. 18 mayors, coordinating with federal help. We're already sliding down the mountain of bullshit. nt

[bigtree]

35. that one report from the rw rag in my state - sourced from one unnamed official?

. . . likely nothing more than inquiries on the limits of the law inflated by the writer to look like something sinister.

[Union Scribe]

61. When there are major civil rights violations? Yes.

Absolutely yes.

Don't you guys ever get tired of having to spin for Obama? It seems exhausting trying to pretend everything he says and does is 100% right.

[piratefish08]

69. be nice to have them directly involved in preserving the First Amendment....

[elocs]

22. I wonder if he would have agreed with a president saying the same about a civil rights demonstration

because that entire notion is so sadly and pathetically wrong but spoken like a politician who is concerned about being on the wrong side.

[bigtree]

23. it's really not at that point yet

are federal laws being violated? Is there some obstacle to resolving these incidents of police abuse through local and state courts and agencies? That would be the point at which I would expect the President (Justice Dept.) to intervene.

[frylock]

27. nobody said anything about intervention..

but i suppose it's too much to ask that a democratic president not tacitly approve of the use of teargas on peaceful protestors.

[bigtree]

33. you'd think so

I'm just not sure if there isn't some line that would be crossed in directly commenting on specific incidents. I'd expect the President to get involved through his Justice Dept. when there appears to be some breakdown in the ability or will of the state to regulate these issues. I believe there are issues of separation of authority that need to be respected, although I understand the sentiment.

If the injured parties feel they can't get redress or justice from their local or state institutions, they can appeal to Justice to intervene. That said, I wouldn't be so certain that this former community organizer hasn't picked up the phone to Justice, himself, to see where he is legally or functionally able to influence the police conduct. Still, a bit slippery, in my view.

[county worker]

75. President Kennedy and President Johnson took personal action.

They spoke directly with the state governors.

[county worker]

73. In the civil rights movement, the federal government acted because the states n the South would not

In Little Rock , Montgomery at the bus boycott, in Mississippi when the freedom riders were killed,

[Modern_Matthew]

28. There is no substance at all to Obama or any of the bought suits surrounding him...

A do-nothing Congress combined with a little-to-nothing President...

It's getting old, quick. OWS is the only light we have left.

[femrap]

36. Obama is

a minion of TPTB.

He makes me :puke:

Just a figure head....and if I had a figure head, he/she'd be much cuter.

[XemaSab]

37. Thanks for standing up for the constitution

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[ellisonz]

56. That's your right.

It's also my right to wish you fun with Mitt Romney! You'll have a swell time!

:evilfrown:

[piratefish08]

72. oooooohh boooga booooga booooga.......

2 months ago it was President Bachmann....

next week it'll be President Gingrich........

you need to get more creative......

because people realize now - there are NOT 2 sides to that fucking coin anymore......

[ellisonz]

84. Blast From the Past

Final certified results
Federal official vote for the state of Florida (25 electoral votes) Presidential candidate Vote total % Party
George W. Bush (W) 2,912,790 48.847 Republican
Al Gore 2,912,253 48.838 Democratic
Ralph Nader 97,488 1.635 Green
Patrick J. Buchanan 17,484 0.293 Reform
Harry Browne 16,415 0.275 Libertarian
John Hagelin 2,281 0.038 Natural Law/Reform
Howard Phillips 1,371 0.023 Constitution
Other 3,028 0.051 —
Total 5,963,110

[Leopolds Ghost]

82. None of us would have a fun time with Romney as president. In fact we'd be as bad off

As we are now, or even worse. How saying so helps is beyond me.

[Marr]

94. Who cares. He'll be powerless without massive majorities in both houses of Congress. Right?

Or is that not right? Only when we're talking about Obama? Gotcha.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Leopolds Ghost]

81. The sad thing is, according to the sticky thread, DU is now the largest liberal website.

That means it's never been more popular among rank and file Dems, who as some posters like to remind us, support Obama's current policies 80% of the time.

Which means 80% of the people come to this site to read posts by us disaffected OWS supporters and laugh at us.

Or there is some hidden 99% that is as angry as we are but no longer self-identify as liberal Democrats (if we believe the statistics).

[woo me with science]

44. He is not on our side.

Our government has been bought and paid for, and it is now siding against its own citizens.

Anyone who does not see this by now is either not paying attention or complicit.

[Cali_Democrat]

46. Cities can't just make their own decisions. They have to follow the Constitution

A Constitutional scholar should know this.

[Pryderi]

52. + 1.34 billion.

[TBF]

68. What is this "constitution" you speak of? I think that was outlawed with the passage

of the Patriot act.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No Joe]

48. Cities' Rights?

Disappointing.

[Fire Walk With Me]

51. What?! What?!

"Are you kidding me? You've got to be kidding me." -DEVO

[Karmadillo]

53. Kick

nt

[Ichingcarpenter]

55. Cities must decide how to use their own 'iron fist' which we provided

through homeland security.

[harun]

93. Funny how quickly people forget about Tahrir square. Think Obama would have said

something like that about Mubarak? Saying Mubarak "must decide the right amount of force to use." Hell NO he wouldn't have.

[woo me with science]

58. SHAME SHAME SHAME ..... They are coordinating the crackdown.

They shut down media, and they attacked their own citizens.

The mask has fallen.

[Le Taz Hot]

59. What's that old saying?

"Ain't nothin' in the middle of the road but yellow lines and dead armadillos." Way to make a stand, there, President Change!

[JustAnotherGen]

60. Well played Mr. President

Mayor Bloomberg sure is going to look really craptastic if that's the Republican's 11th hour Presidential candidate - eh?


ETA: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2320393


Living just outside of NYC in NJ? And in Central NJ where it's highly CONservative? The few CONS I know are chomping at the bit for a Bloomberg or Christie late entry. Right now - President Obama has one hell of a series of campaign ads to make. Video, snips from WAPO articles, etc. etc.

[Freddie Stubbs]

62. Bloomberg make Romney look like Pat Buchanan

There is no way that the GOP would nominate him.

[BOG PERSON]

89. are you serious?

[piratefish08]

66. how MUCH force to use against protesters?? how about ZERO mr president.

[backtoblue]

70. Bingo!

Stand up for the people Mr. President!!! We stood up for you, after all.

[Ignis]

87. +1

[OKDem08]

90. Can't wait for Obama to get mic ck'd on the campaign trail n/t

[county worker]

71. Why the hell do you have to use force to prevent people exercising their first amendment rights?

No I do not accept this. Obama support the working class for a change or lose next year!

[Leopolds Ghost]

80. Because Obama's campaign advisers say he can't afford electoral fallout from WS shutdown on 17th

[fascisthunter]

83. Well, Everyone Knows he works for the 1%

that IS what he and his new dems mean when they say "centrist" or "pragmatist".

[GeorgeGist]

86. Cop Out.

[elleng]

88. President Obama said

“The most important thing we can do right now is those of us in leadership letting people know that we understand their struggles and we are on their side, and that we want to set up a system in which hard work, responsibility, doing what you’re supposed to do, is rewarded,” Obama said. “And that people who are irresponsible, who are reckless, who don’t feel a sense of obligation to their communities and their companies and their workers that those folks aren’t rewarded.”

[Amonester]

91. He also said

"We have embraced the chance to show that America values the dignity of the street vendor in Tunisia more than the raw power of the dictator" ...

If it was good for the citizens of Tunisia, why shouldn't it be good for the citizens of the U.S. in the streets of his own nation who are victims of police brutality?

[Marr]

92. He's a joke. /nt