I think it was the SUV craze that finished me off

[arcane1]

Just as gas prices were getting higher, and every reputable geologist was warning us that we were nearing our peak, suddenly the automobile industry managed to convince us that we all need huge behemoth vehicles to take us everywhere. We suddenly need them for groceries, or sudden safety, or to haul theoretical cargo, or to commute to work for whatever reason. I've lost count of the people who said they needed to drive a 4-wheel drive truck every day just in case they may someday have to traverse a snowy mountain. At the time when we really needed to take conservation seriously, they gave us obscene over-consumption instead. They convinced us that 9 miles per gallon was better than 40.

That's some seriously sick and evil shit.

[KittyWampus]

1. But let's think in Darwinian terms. YOU aren't really finished off yet. Hopefully.

The reptiles either evolve or thin themselves way out.

May take some of the smarter ones with them.

But the smarter ones know what our singular selves are part of a larger picture.

[abelenkpe]

2. Totally agree

I even had friends tell me they needed their big suv for their dog.

Funny that. I had a dog and she was cool with the MG I drove for 15 years. :p

[MedleyMisty]

3. Yep

On their part, and on the part of the people who swallowed it.

Do note - my mother has a Honda CRV. She also lives on a dirt road that can get nasty in the winter. One winter in middle school, before she had a four wheel drive, we had to park the car at the front of the road and walk in and out every day because it was impassable.

So before the concern trolls jump all up on me, I'm not saying that no one can have a SUV ever. I'm just saying that, like, say, the people who drive Hummers in a city where it hardly ever snows and where if it does the roads are immediately salted and plowed - well, I would say that they are seriously sick and evil.

[Luminous Animal]

4. One of my proudest days as a mother was when my daughter was caught spitting on a hummer

by its owner. And she told me. She was 14.

[MADem]

6. .....

:rofl:

One of my young relations used to write "I HAVE A VERY SMALL PENIS" in the filth on the back of those things--she never got caught, though.

I haven't seen any of those in eons, but for a short time there, they were all the piggy rage.

[Luminous Animal]

7. Nice!

And to think, those kids grew up to be the youth who are driving the Occupy movement!

[arcane1]

10. In a world where truck nuts exist, your young relations are epic heroes

:rofl::toast:

[MADem]

55. The first time I saw those things, I just couldn't believe 'em.

I thought those iconic mudflaps with the angry-boobed woman in silhouette were the epitome of poor taste, but truck nuts?

This is a very different world nowadays!

[MADem]

5. I had an economy station wagon with front wheel drive when I worked in DC.

It got great gas mileage, was dependable, rarely needed maintenance.

When there was a huge snowstorm in the mid-90s, the city ground to a halt.

I had to go to work anyway because I had one of those sucky jobs.

As I trundled along in my crappy little fuel sipping car, I passed SUV after SUV, spun out on the side of the road, smashed against guard rails, bumped up against telephone poles, etc., etc. The drivers, wet hens, many of 'em, seemed amazed to see me pass them by in stately fashion. See, I understood that it's a good idea to drive ahead of yourself, slow down, and expect a little drama when roads are poorly plowed, and be prepared for it.

All of that four wheel drive shit doesn't do one a lick of good if they don't know how to drive in snow and ice! And the speed limit? That's for dry, clear roads!

Lousy gas mileage, and ya can't go as fast as ya want after a huge snowstorm? Darn, what good are those big old gas guzzlers!!!

Now, people who are farmers, who haul stuff for a living, who have a boat that they need to move in and out of a marina, and people who live in the "back country?" They may actually need their SUV. People who live in the burbs and commute twenty, forty, sixty miles to the city? What a waste.

[FarCenter]

9. Big tires with large contact patches slide better than narrow tires in many conditions

And 4WD doesn't stop any better than a 2WD.

[a la izquierda]

22. In 2009, Oklahoma got hammered by a blizzard.

I was trying to make my way back to OKC for Christmas, and I ended up having to stop on Christmas Eve about 140 miles from home. Well, on Christmas Day I figured I'd give it a go in my Hyundai Accent. I grew up in NJ and know how to drive in bad weather. I took it slow, used my hazards when needed, and gained the respect of truckers who stayed behind me, and only passed when they could see the road ahead looked clear. Lemme tell you, though, I almost got run off the road by maniacs in SUVs. I took pleasure in seeing them on the side of the road- car intact, so little chance of injuries.
It took me 7 hours, but I made it home in one piece.

[MADem]

47. +1. nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

59. I remember the record snowfall. I was up there.

[a la izquierda]

64. Talk about a nightmare.

And my neighbors thought my husband was weird for shoveling our walk :)

[kentauros]

24. "they don't know how to drive"

This is the most telling part. Most American drivers only know how to operate their vehicles. They have no driving skills and why they get into so many accidents in any given road condition.

I agree about driving these massive vehicles being a waste. They are also a traffic hazard to those of us in smaller cars because we can't see around them. Try backing out of a parking space when you've got those mountains of steel on either side and not get honked at because you can't see traffic coming.

[raccoon]

28. This deserves to be repeated,

"They are also a traffic hazard to those of us in smaller cars because we can't see around them."

[kentauros]

33. Thanks :)

I've been forced to learn some tricks for dealing with that when on the road. Such as looking for shadows cast by the sun when it isn't directly overhead. You can then see whether they are tailgating the person in front of them and how much braking distance you'll need when things slow down. You can do a similar thing in rainy weather by looking for reflections on the road under them of the taillights on the next vehicle.

[AngryAmish]

29. Amen

But during the giant storms last winter it was nice to have awd, traction control and abs on my wagon. I got one of those phony crossover wagons but I love it.

[MADem]

49. You plainly know how to drive. That stuff does no good if you don't know what you are doing. nt

[AngryAmish]

51. I don't think I'm a very good driver

That said, I know enough not to drive real fast in snow. The traction control when getting in and out of a parallel parking space is real good. no tire spin.

[MADem]

52. That's the Number One Rule of winter driving--you're better than you think! nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

8. I live at 7000 feet

ON that snowy mountain.

I'm not sick, and I'm not evil. What I am is a godsend to some of the citiots (flatlanders) who come up here to ski and snowboard in their Hyundais, Nissans, Toyotas, and Kias thinking front wheel drive means they don't need chains and 40 mpg is just the ticket for mountain driving. It's not.

No, I'm not going to apologize for what I drive during the winter. Right now, my Tahoe has two nylon tow-straps in it and it's not going to be long before I'm once again pulling those citiots out of snowbanks, out of ditches, and the driveways of their rented cabins when they can't get out because their 2200 lb car can't get enough traction to move up a gentle slope.

Know what separates ME from AAA? I do it for free.

I love my SUV. Most of the citiots I come in contact with do too.

[arcane1]

11. You are not who I'm talking about. My family is a better example

All four of them live in the suburbs and drive 4WD SUV's to work, and their weather conditions are minimal. It's just them and all that weight and space, guzzling gas.

I'm not saying these vehicles are not useful, I'm rather complaining about the way they were marketed to those who don't really need them, at a time when we really needed to focus on fuel economy. My gripe is with industry, not consumers :)

[MADem]

13. You are the person for whom that SUV was built. Same deal with the

people in the rural regions of Maine and the like.

It's wasteful in the context of hopping into the SUV in the suburbs, and driving, stop and go, into a city during rush hour, only to reverse course at the end of the work day. It's a slothful vehicle for the average 'flatlander' commuter--yet they are everywhere on the road in the morning drive time.

If you need the power to get up a mountain, or down a snowy unplowed lane, or to attach your plow blade and push the snow off your half mile long driveway, or lug someone out of a ditch, why, more power to you.

[RadiationTherapy]

18. I also live at 7000 feet on a snowy mountain. I drive a Honda

Civic. I have never had a problem, but I know how to winter drive.

[pipi_k]

37. And I live at about 1300 feet

on a dirt road in the middle of the woods.

It's not about knowing how to winter drive. It's about
being able to get up to the top of the hill (of my dead
end road) when the highway department hasn't plowed the
road in 24 to 72 hours.

It's about being able to avoid driving into a ditch on
the side of the road when you're going down and another
vehicle is coming up and only one can pass at a time.

Washouts and craters.

And even when the road is plowed, there are spots, like
at the top of the hill, where the wind blows snow over
the road and it's possible to get one's wheels caught in
a frozen tire rut and get pulled into a snowbank without
even realizing it till it's done. This is what happened
in March of 2005 with our Tracker. Stuck at the top, no
houses nearby, having to call the highway department and
wait an hour for them to come to pull us out.

So now we have a Dodge Ram pickup (for plowing 200 feet
of driveway) and a Hummer. And, we do occasionally drive
down into The Big City, where many idiots stupidly assume
we live in said Big City and are just driving a Hummer to
be assholes.

OK. Whatever.

Here's a photo of my road from a spring storm a few years
ago. Come on out here with a Honda Civic and see what
happens. The last time we drove out here with a regular
car was in 1996, with a Chevy Corsica. Put a huge hole
in the oil pan. Never again.

[RadiationTherapy]

41. I guess. I don't think anyone is talking about people who live out in the woods.

so I didn't finish your post.

[Abin Sur]

30. 7400 feet on a mountain here. I have a Jeep Cherokee *and* a Civic hybrid.

Best of both worlds. I'll be driving the Civic today, but should we get a couple feet of snow, I'm ready!

[JuniperLea]

39. There are reasons for owning SUVs

I had one when my kids were young... three kids and cargo room. Great for camping and hauling guitars and amps around (I was and have always been the anti-soccer mom), and science projects too. Once all my kids could drive, I got a little car, and my current car is little too. I don't feel guilty for using a SUV for its intended purpose, and neither should you.

Ninety eight pound, 4 foot eleven people should not be driving SUVs... I see it all the time and it's freaking dangerous! Commuters in Los Angeles (citiots is apropos) should not be driving SUVs... most of them do and it's a huge waste of resources to get one person 30 or 40 miles round trip or more. They should be ashamed of themselves.

Funny... I have a brother and a sister who live in the local mountains, and they call me flatlander too. They would never call me a citiot though:)

[krispos42]

12. Meh.

:shrug:

SUV's didn't have much worse fuel economy than family cars or minivans at the time.

Yeah, there was a "coolness" factor and a "manliness" factor involved, but SUVs gave a lot more versatility for not much penalty in fuel cost.

1991 Ford Explorer, 4WD, 14/19 mpg, 16 combined
1991 Ford Taurus, FWD, 18/26 mpg, 21 combined
1991 Ford Taurus Wagon, FWD, 18/26 mpg, 21 combined
1991 Dodge Caravan, AWD, 15/20 mpg, 17 combined
1991 Ford Crown Victoria, RWD, 18/22 mpg, 18 combined
1991 Chevrolet Caprice, RWD, 15/24 mpg, 18 combined
1991 Chevrolet Lumina APV (minivan), FWD, 16/21 mpg, 18 combined
1991 Chevrolet Lumina (sedan), FWD, 17/20 mpg, 20 combined
1991 Honda Accord, FWD, 19/26 mpg, 22 combined
1991 Honda Accord Wagon, 18/24 mpg, 20 combined
1991 Toyota Previa, 15/20 mpg, 17 combined
1991 Toyota Camry, 21/29 mpg, 24 combined
1991 Toyota Camry Wagon, 21/28 mpg, 24 combined


As you can see, the mid-size sedans did a good bit better than the Explorer, but the minivans and full-size sedans did only marginally better.

So a lot of people said "the extra towing, ground clearance, and 4WD is worth the 1 or 2 mpg loss in fuel economy". Especially when gas only cost $1.20 a gallon.

It would take 937.5 gallons to drive the Explorer 15,000 miles in a year. It would take 882.4 gallons for the Caravan, a difference of $66 a year in fuel costs.



Since then, fuel economy has gotten somewhat better while engine power and vehicle safety has made dramatic improvements.

[uncle ray]

15. nonsense.

you only list one suv, and a small one at that. you conveniently left the Suburban off the list, as well as the fullsize trucks people bought and still buy. the real world difference is much more than one or two mpg. inefficiencies such as a out of tune motor or underinflated tires matter more when you are moving a much larger vehicle. of course there's much more to it than simply fuel cost, maintenance and repair adds up in a hurry.

[snooper2]

26. Do you have any ideas how long Suburban's have been made?

How about a 78' Wagoneer?

[uncle ray]

53. yes, i do. but i don't know what that factoid has to do with their growing popularity in the 90s.

what's your point?

[krispos42]

56. "nonsense"? I listed the most popular SUV, the archtype, if you will.

I believe Ford was selling in excess of 400,000 a year of those for a decade or more.

Yeah, there are others, the Bronco and Blazer and Suburban and Cherokee and Grand Cherokee, just as there were more sedans and wagons out there.

Feel free to include them; I got the info from fueleconomy.gov.

[Historic NY]

14. You must have bought that Ford behemoth.

[southmost]

16. SUVs handle the wear and tear of unkept roads and highways

better than cars do,

I hate SUVs but that's one of the reasons people still buy them

[blueamy66]

17. So, that explains why a co-worker of mine, here

in AZ, who is 50 years old + and has no children, drives an Oldsmobile SUV. Cause all the snow and salt on the roads here in AZ really make it necessary for her to do so.

NOT

[MadHound]

20. Unkept roads, in urban and suburban areas? Puhleeze

I grant you, urban and suburban areas have their potholes and rough spots, I know, from having lived in and visited many a fine city. But if you want seriously "unkept" roads, roads where you truly do need a heavy duty vehicle to handle the wear and tear, then you would have to go to rural America. I live in rural America, and the roads are far worse than any urban or suburban road. Not just potholes, but entire divots taken out of the road. Not just gravel roads, but paved roads quickly turning to gravel and/or hardpack roads. This is where you need a rugged vehicle. Not in a city, not in a suburb, not in the environment that most SUV owners live. That's just a bullshit excuse to get a big, macho vehicle that makes you feel like the big man.

[lonestarnot]

19. Never fucking convinced me! Not ever!

[Bowwowwow09]

21. So blame the automakers? That makes no sense

They made SUVs because thats what people wanted. The minivan craze of the 80s shifted into the SUV craze of the 90s and 2000s because they offered just as much room as a minivan with more versatility. At the time, gas prices were around $1, so nobody cared about the gas mileage. When prices went up, you started seeing more small SUVs (first from the Japanese automakers then American).

That's like choosing to eat at McDonalds everyday and then complaining that they made you fat. Americans made the decision because gas was cheap in the 90s. If it weren't for the SUV American automakers would have been hurting big time in the 90s...the SUV saved us from the "Japanese invasion" of cars.

[KittyWampus]

45. You've got it backwards. Auto manufacturers created the demand for SUV's. It's called Advertising

or Brainwashing. The actual psychologists who helped create the ads have spoken about it. It's really quiet interesting.

[CJCRANE]

48. IIRC didn't Bush introduce a tax break/credit for SUVs

back in the early 00s...?

I think that also contributed to it.

[uncle ray]

54. yes. crash and safety regulations were another reason they pushed the big vehicles early on.

safety standards and equipment requirements were less stringent on truck based vehicles, making them cheaper to manufacture. also there is much less engineering involved in making a large truck survive an impact.

[knitter4democracy]

23. I own a crossover (small SUV, big station wagon), and I live in MI.

Our roads are crap, and they're usually not cleared in the winter all that much, especially not on weekends when the city or county would have to pay overtime. I have two children, and I often end up giving rides to their friends. When my boyfriend and his two kids come over, all we need is my car, not two cars for the four kids and two adults, and when we went to CA two weeks ago, we only needed my car to get my parents, my two kids, my boyfriend, and me to the airport (so only one car's gas and parking fee instead of two). When the kids and I go camping with the dog, we can get the tent, gear, and everything in there comfortably.

My Ford Freestyle has all wheel drive, can seat six comfortably and all their gear/groceries/whatever, and I get 20-22 mpg most of the time (winter's a bit lower as it gets older). I won't get anything bigger next time if I can find another car like my Freestyle (Ford stopped making them :shakes fist of fury:), but don't think that those of us with these cars don't use them.

[Whiskeytide]

25. We have an Expedition and a Tahoe

We live in Alabama. We pull a trailer or a boat 200 miles maybe 20 weekends a year, and have to have at least one vehicle capable of doing that. We use to have the Tahoe and a Honda Accord Hybrid. When it came time to trade a few months ago, I really struggled with this issue. The Honda got about 28 mpg combined, and the Tahoe gets about 18 combined. But our long trips were almost always in the Tahoe (by necessity), so we really didn't get the advantage of the Hybrid on the highway, and the Tahoe isn't too bad on the highway anyway - even with the trailer. I did the math and it costs us about $1,000 more annually to drive the SUV over the Hybrid, all other considerations being equal.

These are the things that finally convinced me to trade the Honda and keep the two SUVs:

I like the better visibility and handling of the SUV. I'm sorry, but it is better - especially when everything around me is a truck or SUV.

Our kids are in the car a lot. The SUV is safer under identical crash conditions. That's just a fact. Again, especially when what runs into us is also likely to be a truck or SUV.

We don't always need the cargo space and seating capacity, but when we do, it is nice. I can also get a 4 bike carrier on the SUV (when we're not pulling the trailer), so that's a benefit as well since we ride a lot as a family.

I'm 6'1", my wife is 5'11". Our kids are young, but both are already tall and will be taller than both of us. The Honda was a pain in the ass to climb in and out of. I'm not as young and bendy as I once was. When you're 50, you'll understand.

The Honda had 90,000 miles on it, and the eventual battery replacement is a $6,000 fix. That would wipe out all the savings we had on it since we got it.

The High miles on the Tahoe (150,000) made it worth very little as a trade - but I know they're highway miles and it still has a lot of miles left in it. It is worth more than they would ever give me for it.

I still wonder if it was the right thing to do. I still bitch when I fill either of them up. But I ride my bike more out of guilt (and that's good for my health). At the end of the day, I think we made the right choice financially and for our situation. If our demands change, we'll go greener, but for now its what we felt was best.

[trof]

36. Hi, neighbor. Welcome to DU.

I'm in Foley.
:hi:

[Whiskeytide]

42. Another Alabama Democrat...?

... I think I'll need to see a voter registration card!

I'm in Mobile. Foley is a great town.

[trof]

58. And in RED Baldwin County, no less

There are a few of us.
The South Baldwin Democrats hold a Jefferson-Jackson Dinner every year.
Yeah, saw your location from your profile.

[Whiskeytide]

62. That's great. Much more fun than the...

SB Republican dinner I'm sure - even if less attendees. By the way. You guys don't have any more like Julio Jones down there, do you? We sure could have used him this year.

[trof]

63. I heard we (at last) have a good kicker on the way.

We sure need one.

[NoGOPZone]

40. The SUV has better handling? nt

[Whiskeytide]

44. I probably mis-characterized that...

... It has a better and sturdier ride. The roads here can be pretty bad - and I'm occasionally on dirt. The SUV handles that much better than the Honda.

[Major Nikon]

74. You also mischaracterized the safety of SUVs

SUVs aren't safer, and suggesting they are as "fact" is just wrong. Not only are they no safer to the occupants, they are more dangerous to others.

http://eetd.lbl.gov/ea/teepa/pdf/TRB_Safety_1-03.pdf

[Whiskeytide]

75. Ummm....

... so you link a study that concludes:

" •Average compact and subcompact car
—higher average risk to driver than average SUV "

and then tell me I'm wrong? What am I missing?

It does conclude that:

" •Average midsize and large car
—same average risk to driver as average SUV "

I'll give you that, and that the SUV is slightly more dangerous to others than a midsize or large car - I'm conscious of that and try to take it into account when I drive. But the midsize or large car wont handle the dirt roads as well or pull a boat or trailer without strain. And the midsize or large car doesn't provide nearly the improved mpg, which is kind of the point of this thread. So what would you have me do?

[Major Nikon]

77. I'm not saying there aren't reasons to have an SUV

I'm just saying safety is not one of them. As far as mpg goes, many mid sized cars get excellent gas mileage. Some of the safest cars were the accord, maxima, jetta, 626, camry, avalon, and those cars get in the 24/34 neighborhood for mpg.

[Whiskeytide]

78. That's fair enough...

... and I agree that some mid size cars do great on mpg. My Accord was one of them. The problem is that my Accord could not pull the boat or trailer.

Maybe the safety thing is, to some extent, a perception. But if my Tahoe gets broadsided by an F-150 pick-up that runs a stop sign at 45mph, I simply have to believe my daughter is better off than she would be in the Accord given the same F-150 running the same stop sign at the same speed. A rear end or front impact would also include the disparity in the bumper heights, further making more damage in the Accord a likelihood.

I think they makes Accords and other small/mid size cars very safe in most instances by way of crush points, crumple zones, reinforced passenger compartments, etc..., but all other things being equal, they simply can't fully off-set the undeniable safety advantages inherent in weight, size and height.

[Major Nikon]

79. The hazzard to a vehicle with a high center of gravity is rollover

So the best you can say about the safety of an SUV is it's a trade off.

[deaniac21]

27. Nobody gave me one.

[LeftinOH]

31. Specifically, the Hummers, Cadillac pick-up trucks, and Ford Excursions in areas where there

are NO mountains or hills, and nobody goes off-roading. Conspicuous consumption at its worst.

[Abin Sur]

32. (shrug) People can buy whatever they want.

If someone buys a Hummer to drive to the grocery store in LA, that's their choice. Free market and all that...

[sibelian]

65. Indeed they can.

But some decisions regarding expenditure are better than others.

[Abin Sur]

73. It's their money to spend as they wish; while you may consider their decision

a poor one, there's very little you can do...other than gripe about it on a message board, of course. :)

[FiveGoodMen]

68. And we can criticized them for being selfish, wasteful pigs

Free speech and all that...

[Abin Sur]

71. I agree completely, you certainly can.

[taught_me_patience]

34. People can buy whatever they want

But if they make the choice to drive the most gas hogging vehicle they can, then they shouldn't complain about high gas prices. Eventually high gas prices will phase out the SUV completely. We are still a long ways off, though... Ford F150 is still the number one selling vehicle in America, even with gas at $4/G

[JuniperLea]

35. Don't forget that killer tax break on Humvees!

Yeah, I remember Republicans praising W for that one. Without one thought to how that was going to create even more debt. Idiots.

[trof]

38. Friends just got a new Suburban.

They're in their late 60s/early 70s.
Both retired.
Just the two of them, no kids or pets.
No trailers to pull.
I'm guessing that 'car' gets about 12 mpg.

I don't get it.
Why?
:eyes:

[Festivito]

43. YOU pick on the wrong side, PEOPLE bought more Broncos, fewer sedans.

Auto companies kept up with demand.

Had WE increased the price of gas to reflect its real cost instead of supplementing its production through our income taxes, the SUV trend might had not started.

You expect auto companies to conspire in order to be moral keepers of your personal morality in a world of chaotic moralities.

Life does not work that way. It's much harder to get your own way.

BTW, I agree that SUVs are ridiculous. I just think you're barking up the wrong tree.

[Throd]

46. Waaaaah! People make choices I wouldn't make.

As I recall, vehicles like my dad's 1967 Chrysler Town & Country station wagon were common before SUVs.

This development is hardly new.

[G_j]

50. right on

:applause:

[belcffub]

57. my cherokee get around 20mpg

had it 13 years now... I drive less then 6k miles per year and frankly could care less how many mpg I get... I only fill it ever 2 to 3 weeks... have a 3.5 mile commute to work... I hate getting lectures from holier-than-thou people who drive great gas mileage cars 30 miles each way... living in buffalo and having a cabin half mile off on a seasonal road in our snow belt (we got 27 feet of snow two years ago... last year was light at around 18 feet) cars really don't cut it...

when the jeep dies planning on getting a 80's era pickup that someone else already restored... maybe a diesel... again mpg is not that important... being able to get back to my cabin, tow logs out on our trailer and winter driving are much more important...

And everyone who does on and on about how great their cars go in the snow... how skilled of drivers they are... talk to me when the snow is up to the windshield... find me a car that can go through 2 feet of snow... I lock the diffs and go... if I get to a something I can't get through the winch works great... or the chains go on... never ended up in a ditch or stuck yet...

[stuntcat]

60. I'm with you

I am ashamed that per-citizen my country eats up the most resources. Of course most of them will disagree with you. If there's one thing I've learned from DU it's that being a Democrat does not mean you can fathom what our lifestyle here is doing to the future.
Every day I am reminded over & over & over why I'm proud never to have given a child this century, and glad my years are half over.

[krabigirl]

61. whatever floats your boat, but I just find large SUVs to be really ugly.

I like crossovers, though, and I love wagons and of course smaller cars.

[fascisthunter]

66. it's shows how deep greed is in this country

wanting bigger... more, more, more... it is a symptom we see of a greater problem in this country and that is the insatiable need for more. The 1% lead the way...

[JI7]

67. There were a lot of people who bought them just to show off to others

and it seems like there are still way too many of them . i can understand the need for them in some places but there are many who get them just to be cool or whatever the fuck.

[Odin2005]

69. If you don't live out in the boonies then you don't need an SUV. Period.

And before a fellow Minnesotan goes "BUT WINTER...", there is something called winter tires, get them.

[badtoworse]

70. Need has nothing to do with it - nt

[belcffub]

76. so those of us who don't live in the boonies

but travel there on a weekly basis don't need one... thanks for making that decision for us...

and when the snow is up to your hood on your car winter tires don't help... I can get out no problem in 18 inches before I am even worried... put the chains on and I am good to go... drove two of my neighbors who work at local hospitals in a couple of years back when we got 40 inches one day... took a little while but both their cars got stuck getting out of the driveway...

[Romulox]

72. Toyota FJ is good for the environment. Because it's a Toyota. And because it's not a Hummer!

Still very much in production:

[Warren DeMontague]

80. it's not just WHAT you drive, it's how much. nt