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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:44 AM
Original message
28% credit card interest rates are criminal
I would love to see this addressed in Congress but due to it being re election time, it'd a dead horse.

No one is going to bring this up. The banks would donate heavily to their opponent.

Maybe OWS was a year too soon.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. Used to be literally true, until Nixon repealed the usury laws!
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. +1
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Joe Biden led the charge for this when the last reform was attempted.
he led the charge. That is why I cannot to this day totally stand him. He's a bastard for doing this to people. Slavery. He helped institute slavery. If he decides to run for president next I will NEVER ever vote for him.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. i'm w/ you. that was an awful, awful thing he did. nt
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
3. Can't the states also limit credit charges?
It's been over a decade since I had a credit card, but I seem to remember the back of the bill listed limits by state.

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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Yes, & in Penn. the Dem.controlled House was bribed to remove all limits.
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 08:55 AM by Divernan
I worked for the Dem. caucus in Harrisburg back in the 90's when the bill to remove all limits on credit charges was passed. The Democrats enjoyed a majority in the State House of Representatives and could easily have killed this legislation. When it was debated in closed Democratic caucus, a very few honest Dem. state representatives (like Bud George and Greg Vitali) argued fiercely against it, but Democratic leadership, & the majority of the caucus, which had been liberally bribed by the credit card companies, defended it. (As a staffer, I was allowed in to the closed caucuses.)

Their argument, the most pathetic one I have ever heard offered in political debate:
"Well the bill doesn't FORCE those who offer credit to RAISE their rates. Why they could very well LOWER rates!"

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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
4. Loan sharks, that's all they amount to anymore. We have a disgraceful financial system. n/t
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. +1
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. So don't get such a credit card,
You would be better off going to a cash/check basis anyway.
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Thanks for that timely, totally useless piece of advice
I'll be sure to follow it after I pay off my current CC's.
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RegieRocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. What a load of useless crap.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Interesting. Do you have the same libertarian view on other
products? If it is poison, just don't buy it, but it should be legally available? So no regulations for any products? None? Should the policy on meth be 'it's legal, just don't get any'? If not, what doe you see as the difference? Tainted foods sold? Just don't buy it, no need to regulate or inspect? If not, specify the differences as you see them, between the one product and the other. Both immoral and pernicious to society, so if one should be without regulation and left to consumer choice, they both should. If not, explain why not, in detail.
I'm not a libertarian, by the way, so this 'it is up to the consumer to not buy poison sold as medicine' theory is not one I embrace as you seem to.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. Libertarian, not at all,
At least not in intent. The fact of the matter is that waiting for our corporately corrupt government to do something practical, like regulate credit card rates, is an exercise in futility. Thus, the only weapon that we the people have is their own buying decisions, ie a boycott. If enough people cut up their plastic, it would force the credit card industry to change its practices.

But I suppose that such a boycott would involve work, and sacrifices some folks don't want to make. So it is easier for people to label those who suggest such a solution as libertarians and insult them rather than taking practical steps to change our society.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
9. I don't thing the Vig on a loan from the Mafia is 28%.
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Yo_Mama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
13. Not really
There is a group of credit card holders who represent such a risk of non-repayment that 28% just about covers the pool with maybe no profit. What's criminal (or should be) are interest rates that are too high for the losses plus servicing cost plus rate risk plus cost of funds.

The last reported national average interest rate on CCs was 13.08:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g19/current/g19.htm

So most cardholders aren't being charged high rates, and that is because they represent much less of a risk. Chargeoffs on CCs for banks are still hanging in over 5.5%.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/chargeoff/chgallsa.htm

Some non-banks provide CCs with higher risk profiles, and if they were included that charge-off rate would be higher.

Delinquencies are beginning to rise a bit, at least in the more risky portfolios.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20111115-705785.html

Anyway, with 5.6% chargeoffs, plus 3% servicing costs, plus 1.5% cost of funds, and increased rate risk, about the minimum average interest rate you could possibly see on CCs to break even over the longer run would be 5.6% + 3% + 1.5% + 1.5% + 1.5% (profit) or 13.1%. So I conclude that overall the industry is not abusive at this time.

The non-bank higher-risk CC providers are paying a higher cost of funds because of their higher risk profiles - note the LIBOR + 4% rate CompuCredit is paying right now to Wells Fargo as disclosed in this SEC filing:
http://www.faqs.org/sec-filings/111011/CompuCredit-Holdings-Corp_8-K/
http://www.faqs.org/sec-filings/111107/CompuCredit-Holdings-Corp_8-K/

Interest rates charged on any group of loans have to cover servicing costs, losses (charge-offs of uncollected debts), cost of funds (you have to get the money you lend from somewhere and you have to pay for that), rate risk (the risk of future loss because you have lent money at low rates in the past and are now forced to pay higher costs for the pool of money you have lent out.

I think what is more criminal is that so many people in the US are forced to either borrow money at title/pay day lenders or from these types of high-risk lenders. It's probably better, if you are forced to it, to be paying CC interest from 20-30% on a rather low balance rather than a much higher annual rate for a payday or title lender, but it seems as if we could make things better if we tried to provide some sort of last-resort credit at lower rates to those with jobs.

Why doesn't our country do this? It seems as if we don't really care to help out lower-income people. Most of the cost of non-secured high-rate credit comes from the inability to repay. If we tried to make some loans from treasury at rates of say 6%, paid back as a salary deduction from payroll, and collected by the IRS we would have some losses, but much less.

And anyone who has ever had to take high-risk loans and try to pay back at those rates knows that it is much easier to pay them back at 10% versus 20-30%.

If you banned such CC rates you would just restrict issuance of CCs, and many people would end up going the payday/title loan route. But if you provided a pooled alternative with much lower repayment rates collected by the US government (and non-dischargeable in BK), a lot of people would get real financial relief. Any cost the taxpayer ultimately had to absorb would be much less than that incurred by all the bailouts of car companies, Fannie/Freddie, banks, GE etc.

The appropriate role of government is to do things that people can't do by themselves. Providing high-risk credit is something that literally can't be done by the private sector cheaply - why not use government to provide a way for lower-income people to be able to access credit at lower rates if they really had to?
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Chargeoff rates have dropped markedly in the last few quarters
They were almost 11% in 2010. However, banks have written off a lot of bad debt, they have tightened up their credit card underwriting standards.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/chargeoff/
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Yo_Mama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. That's right, and I provided the link and the current rate
But it is due to go up somewhat because delinquency rates are beginning to tick up.

Also, I provided links to non-bank providers that have higher rates - depending on your standards, your loss rates will be higher or lower.

If you look at average rates paid on cards and average chargeoffs, the math really does add up. Just because there are some higher-risk accounts paying much higher rates doesn't mean that everyone is.

Still, the reality is that some people will always end up in a high-risk pool, and I would like to see some serious national consideration put to finding a way to get them out of that position. It's worth doing and it would pay back over time, and it would be a huge help to individuals struggling to get along.
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