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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:59 AM
Original message
Can Occupy Successfully Include Tea Party Types?
I don't think so. While both the typical Occupy early adopter and the typical tea partier share a distrust of government, the similarity ends there. The Tea Party celebrates corporatism and believes that business is king, and that if only business were left to its own devices, everyone would do just fine. That is at the foundation of the Tea Party movement.

Including Tea Partiers in Occupy will not accomplish anything, in my opinion, but to create discord within the movement. I see it as akin to including KKK members in the civil rights movement of the 60s. Both groups wanted the races to get along. One wanted equality; the other wanted complete separation. The principles were completely opposite.

The Occupy movement should be inclusive, but must consider fundamental beliefs when designing that inclusiveness. I believe Occupy is completely incompatible with the Tea Party.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Maybe the casual ones who were briefly sucked in.
There are some that bought the rhetoric, but backed out when they saw the racism and batshittiness. And yes, I've personally seen ex-teabaggers at Occupy events.

Of course, the ones who are still teabaggers, the ones who rant and rave on Twitter and in newspaper comments sections about the "dirty commie hippies" never would have joined the Occupy movement in the first place.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not really. Makes no sense. Some confused people might show up
but I doubt they will stay with it long. Fired public sector workers and teachers, union members and such doesn't really fit the Tea Party MO.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Yes, confused people and disruptors alike.
The disruptors might stay longer, though.
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. I'm sure the ones who didn't have a clue what the tea party was about in the first place.
Maybe they were just venting their frustration with bad government, not realizing they were being used by the owners of that government. I'm sure they would be welcome once they come to their senses.
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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
4. Certainly, just don't 'type' eachother, and recognize particular issues.
I don't believe all, or even most t-baggers 'celebrate corporatism and believe that business is king,' but rather that many of them, at the grass-roots, have similar frustration w big business as w big government. Having been co-opted, it may be a challenge to get through the superficial p.r. blather, but I think it can be done, one on one.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. +1 n/t
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RKP5637 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
5. There might be some in the Tea Party that might be transitional, that fell for the
gospel and then realized they'd been had. ... that said, by and large, I doubt there's a whole lot of crossover potential.
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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. true stupiTEA no, but a lot of white male joe sixpack types don't subscribe to those...
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 12:05 PM by roseBudd
hardcore dumb as a box of rocks beliefs, where returning to the world as it was in 1905 is a panacea

Why the GOP is terrified

Weekly Standard

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/losing-working-class_608007.html


Last week’s election indicates that the GOP marriage with the white working class is on the rocks. That’s bad news, since the epic Republican landslide in 2010 was fueled by record-high margins among these voters...

As in any troubled relationship, the cause of the GOP’s difficulties is simple: failure to listen to the other’s needs. On issue after issue, the opinions of the GOP’s conservative base are out of step with those of white working-class independents. Rather than grasp this fact, however, many Republican political leaders have listened solely to the base and ignored the other partner in the marriage.

The chief example is the Ohio referendum that repealed the GOP’s elimination of public-sector unions’ collective bargaining rights. Properly recognizing that public-sector unions have driven up compensation to unaffordable levels, union reform was a top priority of the GOP base. Ohio voters, however, disagreed by a 61-39 percent margin.

A close examination of the results shows how widespread the repudiation was. Repeal was narrowly endorsed in only six counties, all strongly Republican. Everywhere else, the margin of repeal was high. Turnout was also high, about 90 percent of the 2010 total, and slightly skewed to Republican regions of the state. In a state where half the voters are whites without a college degree, the conclusion is inescapable: The white working-class independents who voted en masse for Ohio Republicans 12 months ago nearly unanimously rejected the state GOP’s top priority. Since no Republican has ever been elected president without carrying Ohio, that’s a bad sign.

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roseBudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. 'This is happening because the differences between white working-class independents and the GOP’s...
...This is happening because the differences between white working-class independents and the GOP’s conservative base are becoming too substantial to ignore. The GOP base voter believes the deficit is as large a problem as the economy; the white working-class independent does not. The GOP base voter believes cutting entitlements is necessary to cut the deficit and that taxes on the rich should not be raised; the white working-class independent disagrees. The GOP base voter wants to stay in Iraq and Afghanistan; the white working-class independent wants to come home. The GOP base voter scorns Occupy Wall Street; the white working-class independent thinks the Occupiers have something of a point...

Despite all their advantages, Republicans won only 52 percent of the popular vote in the House last year. They achieved this total because of their record-high 63 percent to 33 percent margin of victory among the white working class. In other words, if the Republican nominee’s share of the white working-class vote slips below 60 percent, there is virtually no chance he will get a majority of the national popular vote in 2012. If the share slips closer to McCain’s 58 percent in 2008, Obama’s reelection is assured.

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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Prime Teabag demographic here..
I know them all too well.

Some few will eventually see the light but not many and it takes a lot to swing them.

Here's what it looks like sometimes when a Teabag type does come to his senses..

http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=9942

I watched this man deconvert in real time.

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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. OWS is all the 99% Tea Baggers are welcome as long as they can let everyone else have their say as
well. IF they can sit in the GA and allow other people to express their opinions, Why not?
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firehorse Donating Member (547 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. +1. 99% is better than a bunch of 10% splinter groups
It's the 1% that looks at the rest of us in terms of exclusion and private club. This movement is not a private club. There are many voices in the 99% the fear baggers don't have enough of them to co-opt the entire 99%.
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Cirque du So-What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. I agree
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 12:09 PM by Cirque du So-What
Houston-based lawyer and would-be teabagger leader Ryan Hecker compiled this handy-dandy list of 10 'planks' for the so-called 'Contract from America:'

1. Identify constitutionality of every new law

2. Reject emissions trading

3. Demand a balanced federal budget

4. Simplify the tax system

5. Audit federal government agencies for waste and constitutionality

6. Limit annual growth in federal spending

7. Repeal the healthcare legislation passed on March 23, 2010

8. Pass an 'All-of-the-Above' Energy Policy

9. Reduce Earmarks

10. Reduce Taxes

I don't see jack shit in there in the least bit progressive. Every one of those 'planks' directly benefits the 1%, so fuck the teabaggers and the Koch money they rode in on!
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
12. They might want to leave their tea-bag draped hats at home


They looked silly anyway...
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I guess that was their version of the Guy Fawkes mask?
I doubt that person will show up at any occupation, though.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
16. I think there is some commonality in the attitude towards business
Both Occupy and the Tea Party have members who are very much opposed to "the bankers", the Tea Party in their opposition to the bank bailouts by government, and the OWS who view "the bankers" as the pinnacle of the 1%. There is probably a lot of similarity when it comes to finance, insurance and real estate interests, the "FIRE", as a whole.

The Tea Party is pro non-FIRE business, probably sort of neutral about big business (the non-FIRE Fortune 500), but definitely supportive of medium and small business.

The OWS appears to be anti all big business, since they are part of the 1%, sort of neutral of other businesses, and supportive of cooperatives and socially-concious businesses.

Attitudes towards governments role in the economy are where the difference lies, since Tea Party wants to shrink government across the board (except maybe for the military), while OWS wants to shrink the military and financial role of government while increasing social programs.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. I don't believe so.
OWS wants to strip Wall St./1% of all its power.

Teabaggers want Wall St./1% to attain supreme, unregulated power.

How can that possibly work for the good?

Also, Teabaggers would surely use bully tactics - ie use undemocratic ruthless and aggressive methods to co-opt general Assemblies and eventually OWS.

When ignorant bullies take power, everything becomes negative and dangerous.

Once real people saw that OWS was being irrevocably taken over by a hate group, they'd be gone.

Let's not ever forget this dark place that many of them inhabit:

Rachel Maddow: "Let Them Die"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy9TvrSGVHE

ick. No, thanks.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. The DNC demands that I include 'types' that oppose my rights
on the basis of religious fantasias, and many of the 'atheists' are willing to play along with the 'God is in the Mix' types. Some even say they'd never, ever let a candidate's opposition to equality alter their vote at all, so if I can include open haters and those who gleefully hold their coats I think a consensus based movement can include anyone who is willing to join the consensus. The DNC is not about consensus, as the majority of Americans support equal rights, the DNC embraces such men as Obama surrogate Donnie 'gays are vampires, we must go to war on them' McClurkin.
To vote for 'one man, one woman' Obama and his hate preacher crew, I had to cross larger lines than I would to include other conservatives who are supportive of the majority view which favors my rights by supporting the consensus.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. OK, thanks. I think you are mistaking President Obama's viewpoint,
however. That's what I think. DADT is gone. DOMA will be, I believe, soon. The President is doing nothing to prevent those things. In fact, he has supported them. My own personal opinion is that there should be zero difference in rights, regardless of anything at all. I want a completely level playing field for everyone. I'm one of those atheists, I guess, who really believes in the First Amendment. It is not beliefs that I judge, but actions. Across the board. I also do not expect perfection from any political figure, because I know I will never get it.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 12:48 PM
Response to Original message
19. Economic Justice should deal with the most enslaved, the Homeless, according to some lights, whom
the TP assume should just die and go away.

Any Homeless who become involved in the occupation movement, therefore, could be used by any TP -ers, as an opportunity to spread their political message, rather than to address economic justice that would meet Homeless needs.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. So you are saying allowing them to participate is like inviting
Rick Warren to a Democratic Inaugural two weeks after he equated gay people with pedophiles and familial incest? Or are you saying letting them participate is like hiring a preacher who calls gay people vampires to be your surrogate as a democratic candidate? Or both?
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Not really. Rick Warren said a prayer. I wish he had not been
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 01:50 PM by MineralMan
a participant in the inauguration. He represents nothing I believe in. But, that was a one-time thing. It was a mistake. Lots of mistakes are made. But this thread is about the Tea Party and OWS, not President Obama's inauguration. I appreciate your reply.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. Teabaggers spit venom when it is suggested that a dime of their taxes go toward...
helping someone else.

While, OWS seems to be about social justice, evening the playing field using government regulation and progressive taxation.

The philosophies of the two movements appear to be antithetical.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
24. Counterpoint
What is the city but the people? -- Coriolanus (3.1.239)

A major difference between the Occupy movement and the Tea Party is that the former is a genuine grass roots movement while the latter is astroturf. If we quibble about the meaning of Tea Party, we end up with two concepts. In one sense, there is no Tea Party but its leaders, viz., the Koch brothers, Dick Armey, Rick Scott, etc. These people foot the bill for the Tea Party movement. They inform a segment of the population with disinformation delivered by FoxNews, Rush Limbaugh and assorted televangelists, who deride more foresighted people who see through the propaganda with names like "communist," "socialist" and "dirty hippies"; then the Tea Party leaders use those frustrated people who has been receptive to this message as storm troopers to shut down town hall meetings where a congressman wants to talk about health care reform. They tell these people that they should fear those with power over their lives, and that the government has power over their lives. This is a convenient half-truth. Yes, we should fear the government, but is that all we should fear? Well, what about corporate power? The news is full of reasons why that also should be feared, but one should never expect that to be part of the Koch brothers' message.

Instead, they preach the gospel of a counterfeit freedom from the droppings of quack philosopher, Ayn Rand. Ms. Rand taught that man is a selfish, but intelligent and creative individual and that the best among us should be free to organize and dominate the rest of us. Ms. Rand taught that with absolute freedom, the best among us build a society that benefits all when they take control of the instruments of economic production. These capitalist Übermenschen (not Ms. Rand's term, but one I'll borrow from Nietzsche, whose influence Ms. Rand acknowledged) have no need of society themselves, just a need to organize it.

For Ms. Rand, the effect of the Übermenschen on society is wholly beneficial. In her novel, Atlas Shrugged, John Galt, her fictitious prophet of laissez faire capitalism, uses Hank Rearden, her fictitious iron manufacturer and prototype of a capitalist Übermenschen, as an example of this benefit:

The machine, the frozen form of a living intelligence, is the power that expands the potential of your life by raising the productivity of your time. If you worked as a blacksmith in the mystics' Middle Ages, the whole of your earning capacity would consist of an iron bar produced by your hands in days and days of effort. How many tons of rail do you produce per day if you work for Hank Rearden? Would you dare to claim that the size of your pay check was created solely by your physical labor and that those rails were the product of your muscles? The standard of living of that blacksmith is all that your muscles are worth; the rest is a gift from Hank Rearden.

Well, how much did Hank Rearden bring to the enterprise? Without that muscle, his ideas would remain on paper. He, too, would bring nothing more than what he could do with his bare hands and that would be his earning potential. Without an investment banker on Wall Street (believe or not, they are of some use when they do their jobs right), he would have no funds to build the machine. Without laborers, that machine would not be built. Without more laborers, that machine that produces an stronger type of rail would remain idle. Without all of those other people, Hank Rearden would not be a rich man. That machine ad the rail it produces is as much a "gift" to Hank Reardon from society as the increased production of better rails is a "gift" from Hank Rearden.

That this is a contradiction is easy enough to see. The capitalist has no need of society, but needs to organize it. By organizing it, does he not become part of it? He needs the labor of others to create wealth, which he then claims as his own. Thus, his existence as a capitalist is conditioned by the existence of others as workers; the capitalist is a part of the society he has organized. Nevertheless, he sets the rules for the rest of us, although he should not be subject to any himself. Even the government, considered by Ms. Rand, is his tool. It enforces his rules on the masses, but he is exempt from responsibility. Thus, as it turns out, the freedom of the Übermenschen is a counterfeit freedom: is is the freedom of one man to enslave others.

This might all work if we we could depend on these Übermenschen to behave rationally at all times. Alas, we cannot. If recent history has shown us anything, it is that that economic forces spin out of control of the capitalist, becoming a destructive force of nature that engulfs Herren and Herden alike.

By no means is the capitalist the only "universal class" that has claimed Plato's mantle of aristocracy (rule by the best). Plato, however, meant for the aristocracy to rule in the interests of the entire community. However, throughout history, each succeeding "aristocracy" has ruled only in its own self interest, while, free from their own rules, members of the aristocracy live a life of decadence and opulence at the expense of the subordinate classes (the word aristocracy is indeed ironic). Eventually, the aristocracy squeezes the very life out of those who make up subordinate classes until the individuals of the subordinate classes do some organizing of their and, taking matters into their own hands, overthrow the old aristocracy. For the non-aristocrat, this is a matter of survival. Revolution is a force of nature.

The Declaration of Independence is basically right:


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

We need only realize that, in addition to government, all social systems apply, including the organization of economic order.

The Tea Party as we have examined it thus far is a tool of the aristocracy to dominate the masses at whose expense they thrive. In that sense, the Tea Party is only its leaders, those who have organized members of subordinate classes into a political force that benefits only the aristocracy itself.

But, just as the capitalist is nothing without those who work for him, so the leaders of the Tea Party are nothing without the mob they've organized, the individuals who make up the rank and file of the Tea Party. They are frustrated and fearful of the power of alien forces over their lives. Well, so are we. If we are the 99%, as we claim, then the rank-and-file Tea Partier, riot policeman doing the bidding of the corporate Übermenschen and even the politician who sold himself to the Übermenschen are part of us, too.

We have seen what the order of laissez-faire capitalism really is: it is chaos, it is destructive and even self-destructive. In the end, it is unsustainable. Its presence state is based on fraud in the market place and disinformation in the media about global warming, race relations and economics.

The real question is how to counter the propaganda funded by the Koch brothers et al. and persuade the rank-and-file Tea Partiers, the riot policemen and many bought politicians that their fight is our fight. We have nothing to discuss with the Koch brothers, but we have much to discuss with those they have misinformed or bought.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Exceptional post Jack Rabbit
Should be an OP.
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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. +1,000. I agree, deserves its own thread. I hope you put it on your blog, too.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
26. I think not...
each is separate in its ideology.

the teahadist are not at all related to OWS.
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