Seattle Occupy pepper sprayed pregnant woman miscarries

[Bennyboy]

One of Occupy Seattle's outspoken activists who blogs under the name Ian Awesome has a post up this afternoon about the pregnant woman who was hit in last Tuesday's pepper spray attack by Seattle police:

On the 20th, Jeniffer Fox received news that she has miscarried, and alleges the miscarriage is due to the injuries she received during the police action on the 15th.

"It hurts. It's upsetting. I was ready to have a kid, because my family was going to support me in taking care of the child. Her name was going to be Miracle."

UPDATE: Fox, 19, spoke to The Stranger at the Occupy Seattle encampment at Seattle Central Community College.

Fox was three months pregnant last Tuesday evening when she joined an Occupy Seattle march that stopped at the intersection of 5th Avenue and Pine Street. "I was standing in the middle of the crowd when the police started moving in," she says. "I was screaming, 'I am pregnant, I am pregnant. Let me through. I am trying to get out.'" At that point, Fox continues, a Seattle police officer lifted his foot and it hit her in the stomach, and another officer pushed his bicycle into the crowd, again hitting Fox in the stomach. "Right before I turned, both cops lifted their pepper spray and sprayed me. My eyes puffed up and my eyes swelled shut," she says.

Fox asked for medical attention—the now-famous photo by Josh Trujillo of her being carried to the ambulance is here—and was rushed to Harborview Medical Center, she says, where doctors performed an ultrasound and said that they "didn't see anything wrong with the baby at the time." Fox says she had also seen a physician at Harborview for prenatal care about five week before.

"Everything was going okay until yesterday, when I started getting sick, cramps started, and I felt like I was going to pass out," Fox says.

A friend called for an ambulance near the community college campus. (Fox says she has been camping with Occupy Seattle since it first began in Westlake Park. She is homeless and says, "I don't have a place. This is the place I call home.") When she arrived at Harborview at 11:00 a.m., she says, a doctor told her that "there was no heartbeat" from the baby. "They diagnosed that I was having a miscarriage. They said the damage was from the kick and that the pepper spray got to it, too."

As for joining the protests, she says, "I was worried about it, but I didn't know it would be this bad. I didn't know that a cop would murder a baby that's not born yet... I am trying to get lawyers."

I asked Fox if she had any medical records that confirm the miscarriage or that the clash with police officers caused it. She did not have copies but says she has asked her case worker at Harboview to provide her with records. Harboview officials say they cannot provide any information, of course, except that medical records would mention those details. The Seattle Police Department did not immedately respond to request for comment.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/11/21/pregant-woman-blasted-with-pepper-spray-by-spd-reportedly-miscarries

Photo



A woman who gave her name as Jennifer and said she was two months pregnant is rushed to an ambulance after being hit with pepper spray at an Occupy Seattle protest on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 at Westlake Park. Protesters gathered in the intersection of 5th Avenue and Pine Street after marching from their camp at Seattle Central Community College in support of Occupy Wall Street. Many refused to move from the intersection after being ordered by police. Police then began spraying into the gathered crowd hitting dozens of people. An 84 year-old activist was also hit with spray. Photo: JOSHUA TRUJILLO / SEATTLEPI.COM

[NYC_SKP]

1. Her name was going to be "Miracle"...

:cry:

[roguevalley]

19. i could just die from hearing this. The first fascist army casualty

is an infant.

Miracle

oh god!!!!!!

[kath]

99. SO sad that she miscarried.

But to saddle a kid w/ a name like "Miracle"? - ACK!

[roguevalley]

104. given the circumstances, a beautiful choice. Your name should

mean something, be something to strive for. Miracle. To her mother she was.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

179. Someone get the message to Michele Bachman that a murder

was committed in Seattle. Wouldn't you love to ask her that question in the next Republican debate and watch the wheels start spinning until they catch fire?

[Quartermass]

2. Well, there's a lawsuit. I hope she wins. Good luck to her.

[Angry Dragon]

3. This will be interesting................

[Cid_B]

4. If she had gone skydiving or any other myriad of potentially dangerous activities...

... the fault would lie with her.

She knowingly placed herself in a potentially dangerous situation and needs to accept a portion of the blame.

On a related note, my BS meter is seriously pinging. Maybe I am too cynical..

[Truth2Tell]

6. I see

forget it. delete. I can't respond to this post in a sane way.

[Aerows]

10. Yeah, I considered offering something

But I honestly can't without having to alert on and delete my own post.

[backscatter712]

105. The word you're looking for is "PLONK!"

As in "I put Cid_B on ignore because his comment was so fucking stupid and insensitive that the only appropriate response is ostracism. PLONK!"

[Occupy_2012]

196. I feel for you R6. ; )

[The Straight Story]

7. So now protesting is a dangerous activity? (nt)

[Quartermass]

22. Protesting has ALWAYS been a dangerous activity. There is often violence.

[The Straight Story]

26. People protest all the time in the US, have been for years, mostly without violence

Statistics wise - union protests, mom's protesting school board decisions, etc and so on.

Most people don't expect violence at such thing, at worse they expect they could get arrested.

hell, my mom protested at York Town middle/high school when I was a kid and I was with her. Nothing major happened.

In CA I saw many protests by unions (and my X father-in-law was a union vp and went to many protests) at grocery stores - no incidents.

[Luminous Animal]

31. I've go to more than a dozen protests a year. Some times (like the lead up to Gulf Wars one and two

I am out every day for a month or more and I have only been in 2-4 where the police have attacked the protesters. For decades, attacking peaceful protesters has been the exception, not the norm.

[sabrina 1]

46. There has been no violence from the protests, until the cops

get there. They are dangerous to the health and well-being of the American people, as has been clearly demonstrated by the number of brutal attacks on all kinds of peaceful protesters.

At this point, it is way past time for someone to step in and start prosecuting these criminals who clearly do not belong on our streets and start protecting the public from them.

[DocMac]

150. That is why it is important

that people do not die in vain.

You could say the same thing about war.

Protesting should never have a casualty!

[fasttense]

170. Not with the teabaggers

Seems they can do anything from spitting on Congressmen, to caring weapons, to beating up counter protesters and the cops never pepper spray them or assault them. Gee I wonder why?

No protesting is NOT inherently dangerous. Just ask a teabagger.

[Marr]

197. Excellent point. I'd actually forgotten about the instances of them beating up

counter protesters (disabled ones, of course, because they're chickenshits). It seems to you can protest and even riot with complete safety, so long as you're shouting, "give the rich more".

[JoeyT]

235. Yeah, but they had permits to spit on congressmen

and beat up counter protesters.

Or at least I assume they did, since "Peeerrrrmmiiiiiits!" is the cry raised every time someone complains this sort of thing was never done to teabaggers.

[mmonk]

202. So she should expect to be kicked and pepper sprayed by those who's job is to protect the public?

Is that it?

[Quartermass]

221. Everyone should always be prepared for this eventuality.

The cops are not going to see people as protestors, they're going to see protestors are causing disorder. They are there to keep the peace, and sometimes violence does follow these kinds of protests, and these things do sometimes get out of control.

So yes, everyone should always do their utmost best to be prepared for violence from police, as well as others who might not be part of the protest, but just want to use it as a means to commit more crime and violence. Such as bringing protective gear, or something like that.

It's one reason why I don't participate in protests.

[mmonk]

229. I missed the violence at the last Occupy protest I attended.

I didn't go expecting to be kicked in the stomach either. Guess I was reckless?

[DaveJ]

234. It is a very serene event in my town

Most of the attendees are retired folks. Mostly retired lady's in their 70s. I don't think the police even notice us. We are in a small town. Just because a town is larger and has more people, I don't understand why that should provoke violence among the police.

Basically, these events do not become violent until the police initiate violence.

[Pacifist Patriot]

208. Check the word "often" at the door.

I've been present at oodles of protests since 2003 in several areas of our country, so many I've lost count, and I've yet to experience or witness a single act of violence.

There may be a potential for violence, but certainly one can make a reasonable expectation of a peaceful protest remaining peaceful.

[xxqqqzme]

212. ALWAYS is a strong word!

I've lost count of the protests/demonstrations I've marched in since 1967. Anti-war then and 2003 onward; mountaintop removal(took both my kids 5 & 1); healthcare and education budget cuts etc. I've demonstrated at my congress critter, as well as Feinstein's office.

I have NEVER: been threatened; been in danger; smelled tear gas. There is NO expectation of violence attending a protest or demonstration. The hard and fast rule is non-violence

It is NOT a dangerous activity unless the police have orders to disrupt it. The ONLY violence I have EVER experienced was ONCE, in 2005. Some yahoos drove by and shot us w/ pellets guns.

[roguevalley]

106. it is for the Man.

[AtheistCrusader]

176. Only when the cops show up.

[gateley]

11. Your BS meter -- do you mean you think her story is fishy? nt

[Turbineguy]

13. I think that's the whole point of the First Amendment.

That you can peaceably assemble without expecting to get beat up and lose the child you are carrying.

[Cid_B]

21. There is theory and there is reality...

The reality is that bad things can happen in big mobs of people either through their actions or through the actions of an outside group.

Anyone with a TV or a common sense would realize that.

[uppityperson]

25. Reality is bad things can happen anywhere. In a crowd. In a restaurant. In a car. Crossing the stree

street.

[Cid_B]

30. Um... yes?

Does that mean its smart to stick your hand in a bucket of piranha just because bad things can happen anywhere else?

It is about the likelihood of the bad thing happening and her responsibility to reasonably reduce risks for the child she is carrying.

[uppityperson]

41. And she should have expected a cop to kick her in the stomach and pepper spray her?

She was more in danger driving to the protest than she SHOULD have been there.

Reality is that the person who caused it is liable. Who kicked her and sprayed her? They are culpable.

[The Straight Story]

39. And reality is the person causing the problem can be held liable (nt)

[TNLib]

226. Until recent times protesting has been reasonably safe.

Even under Bush I don't remember hearing of any incidents like this.

[pnorman]

23. Thanks, TG!

I had something planned along similar lines, but you said it first and better!

[Name removed]

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[uppityperson]

15. searching for another link than an anonymous blogger, can't find any.

I'd like to see another link to a reputable source.

edited to add "She knowingly placed herself in a potentially dangerous situation and needs to accept a portion of the blame" is idiotic. Should pregnant women not be allowed in cars? Or anything else? I wish you'd stopped before writing that.

[Downwinder]

32. The blame falls on all of us, for not providing a society where

those sworn to serve and protect, do protect an expectant mother.

[Bette Noir]

184. No. I am not at fault here. The cop who kicked and sprayed her is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I do not expect the AP to cover this

Reuters, nope, and so it goes.

They should but somehow this is a non story.

If this happened at a Tea Party Rally, they'd be jockeying for an interview... then again do you remember any police actions at a local tea party rally? Me neither.

[Alameda]

18. I hope she has a very successful lawsuite....it's unfortunate that

the taxpayers may be the ones who pay for it, but read her statement.

"I was standing in the middle of the crowd when the police started moving in," she says. "I was screaming, 'I am pregnant, I am pregnant. Let me through. I am trying to get out.'" At that point, Fox continues, a Seattle police officer lifted his foot and it hit her in the stomach, and another officer pushed his bicycle into the crowd, again hitting Fox in the stomach. "Right before I turned, both cops lifted their pepper spray and sprayed me. My eyes puffed up and my eyes swelled shut," she says."

She was in the middle, she told them she was pregnant, then they kick her in the stomach...and pepper spray her. I hope they are brought up on very serious charges. This was a cruel sadistic attack. They are obviously psychopaths who have no business in the positions they are in. It is a serious violation of authority.

[roguevalley]

108. there are laws that she's protesting from happening that would

have her tried for murder for losing that infant. THis country has lost its mind. Blaming a girl for losing her baby when she was peacefully protesting. Fuck the city of Seattle's leadership for this murder. Not the girl. The city. This is America and people have the right to protest peacefully and she was. Poor baby. Poor little girl. I hate this shit.

[DocMac]

155. True.

Had the police respected the rights of the protesters, this may not have happened.

At what point do we ask ourselves just what is right and what is wrong?

You can't wrong the woman for being there. She had every right to be there. And the police should have been protecting these citizens, not harming them.

How many times must this be said?

[Alameda]

20. What BS do you see....?

"I was standing in the middle of the crowd when the police started moving in," she says. "I was screaming, 'I am pregnant, I am pregnant. Let me through. I am trying to get out.'" At that point, Fox continues, a Seattle police officer lifted his foot and it hit her in the stomach, and another officer pushed his bicycle into the crowd, again hitting Fox in the stomach. "Right before I turned, both cops lifted their pepper spray and sprayed me. My eyes puffed up and my eyes swelled shut," she says."

She was in the middle, she told them she was pregnant, then they kick her in the stomach...and pepper spray her. I hope they are brought up on very serious charges. This was a cruel sadistic attack. They are obviously psychopaths who have no business in the positions they are in. It is a serious violation of authority.

For some reason the first one did not post, so I tried again. Then the first one appeared.....after I posted this one....go figure. Anyway, I hope some of the 1%rs get sued and the taxpayers won't have to pay.

[tuvor]

24. The victim needs to accept blame? Is that what you're saying?

Just want to make sure I'm reading this right.

[BiggJawn]

27. "Maybe I am too cynical.."

Yeah, that'd be my vote.

I thought I was the most cynical misanthrope in the world, but I just handed my pinball crown to you.

[Cid_B]

33. Put it on the pile...

I think it was the "She was going to be named Miracle" part that put me over the top...

Like I said, it is just my own personal BS meter and opinion.

[Name removed]

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[CreekDog]

147. this is a universal sentiment in this thread

it is AMAZING how widely shared that opinion is here.

[uppityperson]

84. Good grief. thanks for that link. eom

[Name removed]

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[freshwest]

91. Does it feel inconsistent with what you're asking for in your signature links?

If they are about your life and not someone else.

You signed up to go to war, out of loyalty to something bigger than yourself. You support those who were wounded, according to that belief system, if those are your words.

This young lady had loyalty to the people she was living with. That is a large influence on a person's actions, what those who they count on to protect them, who accept them, are like family, will do.

As far as her going into what in the worst possible scenario, turn violent, and which has not always been violent here, does not a soldier or fireman or policeman go into danger for the sake of his comrades and his beliefs in what is the greater good?

Why are her beliefs, her culture that caused her to give an unborn baby a name like Miracle, not worthy of respect?

Just asking.

[noamnety]

195. I know a girl named Miracle.

I guess I'm not clear on your point - but it's really unsettling for me to think that if something had happened to her, people would assume the mother was lying or at fault because of the girl's name.

[Poll_Blind]

35. That's not being cynical. That's a vile and ruthless rationalization. nt

PB

[CreekDog]

125. +1

[sabrina 1]

45. Yes, pregnant women are no longer safe on the streets

of their own country exercising their 1st Amendment rights. And fyi, pregnant women are perfectly capably of sky-diving, sailing, ice-skating, skiing, teaching, in fact, just about anything any 'normal' person is capable of.

So thanks for making the point. The only place a pregnant woman and her baby is NOT safe, is where there are brutal, violent people likely to kick them in the stomach and spray chemicals in their faces.

Maybe she should have called the police?

[Cid_B]

47. You must have misunderstood...

I didn't say they were incapable of doing those things. I said it might not be be the best idea.

Also, is there a reason you included teaching on your list? Do you consider it to be a high risk activity? Well, maybe at some schools.

Feel free to turn that around to suit your needs as you like. Cheers...

[sabrina 1]

51. Why isn't the best idea? They are not disabled.

Teaching, construction work, farming, they are capable of all such activities, as I said, just about anything non-pregnant people can do.

[uppityperson]

53. Why isn't it the best idea? Should pregnant women stay safely at home? Omg, maybe she'll fall

in the bath and get hurt? Not a good idea for pg women to take baths either, right?

[Cid_B]

54. If you see the risk levels...

... of taking a bath and actively seeking out a large mob that has the potential for violence on either side as being equal.... Well, that must be one hell of a bathtub.

In all honesty, I know you understand, you just don't like the point made.

[uppityperson]

56. 341 people died in 2000 from bathtub death in USA. 14,813 car passengers. How many from protesting?

http://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm

Your point is wrong.

[Cid_B]

58. Using that logic...

... everyone on DU should be up in arms about bathtub deaths and car deaths before they have anything to say about protest violence.

I mean if all those people died in those common ways, then isn't that the greater threat? :sarcasm:

[uppityperson]

67. Are you series? Comparing falling in a tub with getting kicked&pepper sprayed by a cop?

:eyes:

[roguevalley]

113. her shouting that she was pregnant and trying to flee problems

and the police ignoring her makes the police the sole individuals culpable here. They were TOLD. She was moving AWAY. they attacked her and hit her where they KNEW her baby was, her belly. THEY KNEW SHE WAS PREGNANT AND ATTACKED HER BABY! Does anyone else get this? THey focused on her baby when she said she was pregnant and they HEARD HER.

Murder. Period. She had a RIGHT to be there. they chose to KILL HER BABY when she IDENTIFIED herself pregnant. That is not HER fault. It is THEIRS. You need to examine your bs meter. It has holes in it.

[Devil_Fish]

146. Thank you for making that point so fucking clear that even the fellow now on my ignore list might

get it, but probably not. If I could rec your response I would.

D_F

[Zoeisright]

171. Me too.

I sure ignore the right people!

[astral]

240. +1.

I think he gets it now ; )

Now, was the same cop that sprayed her the one that kicked her? I thought it was two different cops.

[aquart]

227. Nah. It's just getting readings close to home.

[Name removed]

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[CreekDog]

239. Look, we get it. You want people here to NOT feel bad about the miscarriage that happened to her

Whenever someone is hurt or dies, you move into those threads to minimize whatever sympathy and concern is offered to them.

Frequently you use the opportunity to suggest they deserved it, wanted it or are to blame for their misfortune.

(actually that is all I need to point out)

[sabrina 1]

98. There was no potential for violence on one side.

And since she had every right to expect that the 'other side', especially since it is their duty to 'protect and serve' would not kick her in the stomach and spray chemicals in her face, there was virtually no risk involved in the activity she chose to be involved in that day.

Just as walking to the local store should not be considered a risk. UNLESS there are violent criminals lurking somewhere, which of course she would have no way of knowing until they attack.

[ooglymoogly]

193. A sillier post was never written. "mob" tells us where you are coming from... nwat

[lumpy]

62. Thanks for shooting #4's stupid argument down in flames.

I figured the poster is a male who has limited knowledge of women and their abilities,let alone anything about pregnancies.

[Bette Noir]

188. Slippery slope warning:

If we say that pregnant women shouldn't attend protests, it's only a few moves until we're saying that no woman should leave her house without a male relative to escort her.

(In case there's any misunderstanding, I'm agreeing with you, Sabrina, not arguing.)

[kestrel91316]

48. You again. No great shock.

[astral]

49. Psssssssst! I have just pepper-sprayed Post #4.

Hey, I had to do what I could.

____________________________
Edit: Still reading the thread and seeing all the subsequent posts: I think I just found a real good reason to experiment with the IGNORE feature, this warrants it.

It'll be the first time I ever did that to anyone here. As a general rule, I don't believe in it philosophically.

[CreekDog]

63. you have no heart

we all read your posts day after day and this one seals it.

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[freshwest]

95. Except his links which show him to be supporting wounded soldiers.

Part of the .45% http://www.rangerup.com/the45.html www.woundedwarriorproject.org

[canetoad]

64. Strangely enough

Agree with you on this.

BS rating very high.

[Quantess]

172. Curious, but what's setting the BS meter off?

That she picked a silly name, "Miracle"? I agree it's a silly name, but that's very trivial.
What is so BS about it? Are you suspecting she was never pregnant in the first place?

[Wait Wut]

223. She knew it was a girl at 3 months pregnant.

That's just one. I realize I shouldn't expect anyone to feel the same way as I do, but I've had 3 miscarriages. One when I was almost 4 months pregnant. The last thing I would want to do is talk to the media. All I was thinking about was the loss of a child. Even in a situation such as hers, I would want to be left alone.

Anyway, I'm sure she'll get her wish and find a lawyer.

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[CreekDog]

144. he's got a damned good angel

if he said the things about Obama that he said about gay people, he would have been gone long ago.

but for now, he just comes into threads where someone has been hurt by a bully, or committed suicide or was harmed while being liberal --and he minimizes it or makes light of it.

:shrug:

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[liberalhistorian]

115. Well, hello there, Sgt. Pepperspray!

And how are you this evening? Enjoying your new free time yet?

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[flvegan]

136. *loves* my friend Chan790.

*laughs* at the premise presented.

[Chan790]

148. I earned a badge of honor for that premise. n/t

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[MurrayDelph]

137. for that matter:

What kind of woman would ride a donkey all the way from Nazareth to Bethlehem? She was just waiting for something to happen:

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[Rex]

143. Cynical? Nah I doubt that.

:eyes:

[Th1onein]

149. Uh, hello? Since when did exercising your First Amendment rights become "dangerous"?

People in this country have the right to assemble, to ask for redress of wrongs, to speak their minds. This should not be likened to a dangerous activity such as skydiving. Police are sworn to protect these rights, not to trample on them, or us, or our unborn children.

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[Hissyspit]

153. Oh, for fuck's sake...

Stupid on top of hate on top of rationalization on top of pathetic agenda.

[unionworks]

156. gee, ya think? n/t

[ehrnst]

159. Really? A peaceful march? Driving a car is potentially dangerous

and has a much higher injury/death potential than going to one peaceful demonstration.

[ZombieHorde]

169. If a woman is dressed "sexy," and is raped, is she partially to blame as well? nt

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[Occupy_2012]

194. Did you read the story?

She did not go skydiving, she walked down the street. When she saw what was happening, she yelled, "I'm pregnant, I'm pregnant, let me out." One officer ran a bike into her stomach, another "lifted his foot" into her stomach. Sounds like "kicked" to me.

Her particular circustances aside: 1. Do not kick a woman of child-bearing age in the stomach (or anyone) 2. If somebody is yelling "I'm pregnant, let me out," get them out of there as quick as you can. The police should have escorted her out, which they would have done if they were "protecting and serving;" 3. Don't attack/pepper spray people that are not attacking you, and this never would have happened.

If you're not from the area, in 2005 the Ninth Circuit Court made a ruling regarding pepper spraying non-violent protestors - the ruling was that police officers that do so do not have immunity from prosecution, and have to employ other means of removing non-violent protesters, such as physically carrying them away if they are not fighting and violent. In that case, protesters sat down, joined hands and refused to leave, so the police sprayed them repeatedly in the eyes with pepper spray, and put q-tips soaked in pepper spray inside their eyelids. It didn't work, and they ended up carrying them away. The judge said, if carrying them away is what worked, why not leave out the pepper spray and just carry them away?

Those protesters were employing "passive resistance," in other words, they went limp and had to be carried away. Gandhi invented it. He used it to get rid of the mightiest army on earth at the time, which had occupied his homeland for 300 years, without firing a shot.

The judge specifically called pepper spraying non-violent protesters "excessive force" and "a violation of the Fourth Amendment." It was a very big deal locally, and most people that lived around there then have heard of it. That case dragged on for years. The cops know about it, it pertains to them.

[caseymoz]

207. Oh, so skydiving is similar to involuntarily taking a boot in the belly?

How? Did you think that maybe she didn't couldn't believe the police our civilized country could be so shitty? Or that if things if things got rough, she couldn't tell the police "I'm pregnant" and expect they would defer to her?

Maybe you know and are reconciled to an encounter with the police being an extreme sport like cage-fighting, but not everybody has caught on to that fact yet. They think our jackboots are still real, professional police, or can be expected to act the part occasionally.

You say it was her fault and she's probably lying anyway. Why would that be your automatic stance? Almost any story could be a lie, but why ever the fuck does this one sound unlikely to you, I'd like to hear. Used to deceptive women? A BS meter is bullshit unless there's an actual reason. I'm thinking your reason for disbelieving her is probably as shitty as your claim that she volunteered to take a boot in the abdomen and pepper spray in the face.

[liberation]

214. When a woman is raped, she also needs to accept a portion of the blame, right?

perhaps her skirt was too short.


Oh, and "cynical" does not mean what you think it means.

[sibelian]

217. Unwise thing to say.

She is not responsible for the actions of others.

[Occulus]

219. I... well. Hmm.

:puke:

[Wait Wut]

220. I'm not sure why...

...but, I agree with you.

"Her name was going to be Miracle"? At 3 months pregnant, she knew it was a girl? I'm not generally cynical, but I question everything. Yes, what happened to her was obviously wrong, but I'll wait until I hear the official doctor's report before I jump on the "OMG! Poor girl!" bandwagon.

[MadMaddie]

225. The article says the officer placed his boot on her stomach

and pushed or kicked her back....this is more than just pepper spray...

This is bullshit....

[racaulk]

236. This subthread looks like Swiss cheese.

Curious...

[Poll_Blind]

5. >>>>>HERE IS THE PICTURE OF HER BEING CARRIED AWAY AT THE TIME: (IMAGE)

A woman who gave her name as Jennifer and said she was two months pregnant is rushed to an ambulance after being hit with pepper spray at an Occupy Seattle protest on Tuesday, November 15, 2011 at Westlake Park. Protesters gathered in the intersection of 5th Avenue and Pine Street after marching from their camp at Seattle Central Community College in support of Occupy Wall Street. Many refused to move from the intersection after being ordered by police. Police then began spraying into the gathered crowd hitting dozens of people. An 84 year-old activist was also hit with spray. Photo: JOSHUA TRUJILLO / SEATTLEPI.COM

This is from a link in the article the OP is quoting. It can also be found (with accurate caption) http://www.seattlepi.com/local/gallery/Occupy-Seattle-Protests-32102/photo-1758710.php">HERE at SeattlePI's site.

PB

[roguevalley]

114. POOR SWEET BABY! LOOK AT HER IN PAIN! I HATE THIS COUNTRY SOME TIMES!

The movement is going to save our lives. THat baby was PRECIOUS! That baby was LOVED BY HER MAMA! WHAT THE FUCK PART OF THAT DOES THAT PERSON NOT UNDERSTAND!?

Miracle. What a lovely name.

[Shining Jack]

154. This is repullsive beyond belief.

Anyone condoning this by blaming the victim is as guilty and insensitive as the ones who attacked her physically.

[truedelphi]

8. Who is this nation afraid of?

So often, the big burly men are afraid of the women. No matter what war we have fought, it is always about hurting the pregnant women.

Since the days when the aerial spraying of Agent Orange ravaged the pregnancies of the Vietnamese, and then caused miscarriage in huge numbers for women married to service men who served in Vietnam, to the streets of Occupy, it is so often about the women.

[tawadi]

9. I hope she sues. And wins. Though it will not bring her baby back

Terrible.

[Pab Sungenis]

12. In the Republicans' wet dream of a "pro-life" world

The cop would now be guilty of murder.

[d_r]

28. no, they would blame the mother

they would find her guilty of murder just for being there.

NOT SAYING THAT IS MY VIEW, I'M SAYING THAT WOULD BE THE RIGHT WING VIEW - IF THE COPS HURT YOU THEN YOU MUST HAVE BEEN DOING SOMETHING WRONG TO ASK FOR IT. Authoritarians would never agree that the police were wrong.

[krispos42]

36. That's why Republicans want to chain women to the stove

For their own protection, you see.


And if this uppity women wasn't goin' around gettin' all ed-ja-ma-cated, then this wouldn't be an issue, now would it???


*scratches crotch*

[uppityperson]

42. I imagine you've looked upthread for that. eom

[RetroLounge]

79. Someone in this thread already did.

Look above...

RL

[Shining Jack]

165. I agree.

Blaming the mother would be a right wing view.

[freshwest]

102. Ironic, that. Although I think 'some animals are more equal than others' is their motto.

[Aerows]

16. When grown men beat on a pregnant woman

there is something very, very wrong in this country.

[Modern_Matthew]

17. I fully expect every pro-life politician and group to condem the heinous acts of Seattle police... n

[McCamy Taylor]

69. Nope. I expect them to blame the mother. I expect them to call for charges against the mother.

They will say that she was engaging in risky behavior. The whole point of anti-abortion laws is to restrict the freedom of the mother.

[FirstLight]

29. just. no. words

:( She wasn't out on the edges stirring shit up, she was in the middle of the crowd, and was probably not expecting it to get violent.
She announced she was pregnant, did they NOT hear her? not care? how DARE they! ugh...i'm going to go cuss somewhere else now...

sending her love and light and prayers, hope her health is okay after all that. sometimes miscarriages can cause permanent damage as well. poor girl...

[Divine Discontent]

34. the first casualty... Miracle. How sad for her... :(

and for any one you know who says, "what was a pregnant lady doing...", tell them when you feel the system is so unjust and rancid with corruption, you stand on principal. Cops shouldn't be using chemicals on people, I'm just wondering when the tasers finally start getting used...



Get it now, or one of a million other designs! http://www.zazzle.com/republicans_2012_keeping_millions_out_of_work_bumper_sticker-128659602907896843?rf=238107662556833486

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Somehow I do not expect the freest press in the world

to cover this...

Oh yes, I forgot, :sarcasm:

[riderinthestorm]

40. I'm not trying to stir shit up, but her language about her pregnancy is very right wing.

The "murder" of her "baby"...?

Unfortunately, miscarrying in the first 3 months is more common than one would think. Her language and her desire to find a lawyer to sue for the murder of her "baby" have my alarm bells ringing.

[uppityperson]

43. Also the original story in PI said she was 2 months pg. Will watch and see if more news comes

out about this. Could be sloppy reporting, could be something else.

[sabrina 1]

50. She was kicked in the stomach. That is not the same as

miscarriage. Someone took her choice away from her. If this story is true, this is a crime. And let's see how consistent the rightwing 'pro-life' crowd about this. They should, considering what they say they believe, be calling for the arrest of this officer.

[Aerows]

59. Well, to be honest

She was pregnant, got hit with pepper spray and kicked in the stomach. Regardless of whether or not that caused her miscarriage, it certainly isn't what Democracy looks like.

[CreekDog]

129. Yes that!

couldn't have said it better.

[DerekG]

70. It's "right-wing" to think this way?

I've met a lot of women who would consider the life growing inside them as a "baby" and conservatism has jack-shit to do with it.

[uppityperson]

74. "I didn't know a cop would murder a baby that's not born yet".

That is the objectionable part, the right-winger talk.

[DerekG]

81. Why is it objectionable?

She wasn't attending a bloody anti-choice rally, but an anti-capitalist occupation. And she got assaulted by a bunch of thug pigs.

If this poor woman perceives her (dead) fetus as a murdered baby, that's her right. And only a zealot would dare chastise her for such.

[uppityperson]

82. Should the cop be arrested and prosecuted for murder?

[DerekG]

87. Of course not. Now here's my question...

Should this victim of police brutality be allowed to express her grief without being scrutinized by armchair warriors?

[uppityperson]

88. If she goes public with her grief, she exposes herself to scrutinization.

And of course she should go public because of what happened.

[DerekG]

90. I highly doubt anyone else is scrutinizing her in this fashion

Most of us are too horrified at seeing one of our own being assaulted.

Me, personally? I grieve for her.

[uppityperson]

92. So do I. grieve.

Miscarried and it sucked.

[DerekG]

101. I'm sorry to hear that, uppityperson.

All I'm asking is that our discontent be directed towards aggressors rather than their victims.

At this juncture in history, we need to be as empathic, as nakedly human, as possible.

On edit: Misspelled empathic.

[uppityperson]

112. True. Again, I will look tomorrow to see if there is other confirmation of this

story. Discontent towards aggressors and it is sad for me to question her.

[CreekDog]

131. Almost everyone in this thread shares that sentiment --except for one

and that one, blood really runs cold there.

[roguevalley]

119. there must be nothing worse than want a baby and lose it, honey.

I am so sorry. some people, they need a balpean hammer to the face to get what pain means. Hugs.

[riderinthestorm]

175. I've had two miscarriages uppityperson. It does suck.

Both of mine were in the first trimester. :hug:

[onpatrol98]

213. +1

Me, too. And, I was definitely thinking I lost my baby...not my fetus. I can see how she would consider it murder. I would, too. Not to mention, what if she were to find out she can't have another child.

[Wait Wut]

224. Me too.

I think that may be why both of us are more skeptical. Her actions and words aren't those of a grieving mother. That and saying "Her name was going to be Miracle". You don't know the sex of your baby at 2-3 months. It sounds like a convenient name to bring more sorrow to the story.

[Union Scribe]

130. I assure you, she isn't the only one exposing herself. nt

[sabrina 1]

111. Well, let's ask the pro-life rightwingers. I am sure they will be

clamoring for a charge of murder! :sarcasm:

Btw, lots of people on the left believe that this was a baby also. The difference is they do not impose their beliefs on others.

If I lost a baby to an attack like that I would believe that my baby had been murdered. I would not want him charged with murder, but that is how I, personally, would view it. I fully understand her feelings if she wanted that baby.

Assuming everything in the story is true, that is.

[roguevalley]

118. if another person kicked her in the gut and she lost her baby they

would be prosecuted for murder. since the cops knew and did it anyway, YES. Prosecute them.

[metalbot]

204. If she perceives it as a murdered baby, then it's fair for the pro-life crowd too

You can't argue both "the thing in my womb is a baby, and if you cause it to die, it's murder" and "the thing in my womb belongs to me, and if I want to cause it to die, it's my choice".

While there will likely be broad silence from the pro-life movement, you'll also see cries of "murder" from the pro-choice movement. Both points of view are inconsistent.

[roguevalley]

117. right wing? How? She is discussing the murder of her baby.

I don't see right wing anywhere and I tell you if you could ball all the fire breathing dragons in the world, tamp them down into the belly of all the tigers in the world and bind them all in Vesuvius it would not touch the hatred and rage I feel for the right wing. I don't see what you say is there. IMHO. Perception, it isn't for sissies I guess.

[roguevalley]

116. getting kicked in the gut and having an object rammed into your

gut after SAYING YOU ARE PREGNANT RINGS YOUR ALARM BELLS? It WAS murder. They heard her. THEY HEARD HER. They did it anyway.

[Union Scribe]

128. You must be great at baby showers

"Oh, honey, don't call it a baby! It's a parasite until it sees daylight."

[riderinthestorm]

189. Because so many baby showers are held when the expectant mother is 8 weeks along....

:eyes:

I really feel for this woman, I've had 2 miscarriages myself. Many miscarriages happen in the first 8 - 12 weeks of pregnancy however, and are self-terminating. This woman's occurred 5 days after the pepper spray incident which means her case against the police dept will be very hard to prove. It IS sad for her all around.

[ehrnst]

160. I called my fetus a "baby" and I'm pro-choice. I'd be enraged if someone caused a miscarriage.

Especially if someone injured me purposefully after being told I was pregnant.

I would not refer to it as murder, no. But murder is an emotional term, as is baby.

When people use those terms incorrectly, it's always either coming from an emotional place, or trying to elicit an emotional response.

[Pacifist Patriot]

210. Exactly.

[dana_b]

183. hmm?? I called the two children that I miscarried

my "babies" even though I was 3 months and 5.5 months pregnant respectively. However I am also pro-choice and feel that anyone else can call their children babies, fetuses, "things" - whatever they want. That is the beauty of being pro-choice. You can do what you feel is right and others can do what they want without condemnation.

[Pacifist Patriot]

209. I can't agree. While miscarriage in the first trimester is far more common than...

is generally thought, it is not at all unusual for a pregnant woman to begin fantasizing about her baby from the moment she finds out she is pregnant. The woman may be carrying a fetus, but she begins to dream of the infant she will hold in her arms. Miscarriage is grief for not only the loss of the life you feel you are carrying, but the death of a beautiful potential.

I would consider the language she is using "right-wing" in other circumstances, but not coming from the woman who miscarried. Totally understandable in this case.

Every one of my children were my babies from the moment I saw that line on the stick. That doesn't change the fact I am pro-choice and rationally understand the difference between fetus and baby. While pregnant there is an emotional state that blurs that line. Sticky wicket I suppose. Just saying I understand her rationale under the circumstances.

I would totally support her in a lawsuit for pain, suffering and loss, but would stop short of murder of her baby. Were it me I'd probably feel very differently. But then I wouldn't be thinking rationally either.

[Cherchez la Femme]

238. I am fully pro-choice, but

if I were gravid and anxiously, gladfully expecting this child to birth and raise,
it is completely within the realm of possibility that I would use 'murder' as to the condition/state of welfare of this child;
sure, OK, fetus as the case may be.

Not very feminist of me? I guess not, but my desire, my right to desire this child --to look upon it not as a worry or untenable familial burden but as as blastocyst awaited, ideated upon,
with hopes and dreams and fears for its welfare and safety, education and for she or he to be happy in life... for that to be brutally and carelessly beaten out of me by a Peace Officer, no less, to me surely would feel like murder.


As for calling the child 'Miracle' and that having to be a girls name, I would use it as a boy or girls name; perhaps middle, if a boy but I'm not locked into that.
For example, I would use Angel as a first name for either gender,
and no, I have no Hispanic ancestry.



The only problem I had with the woman's statements was her calling it a "kid",
but that could be a remnant of being classist.

Whatever. So sue me. :P

[lbrtbell]

44. Where are the "right to lifers" now?

I guess fetuses only matter if they're born to corporate ass lickers.

[Th1onein]

152. I am a "right to lifer." And this is WRONG.

For God's sake, she was screaming that she was pregnant and they kicked her in the stomach!

[ehrnst]

161. I'm pro-choice, a mother, and I think this is wrong.

I supported the Motherhood Protection Act, which was the alternative to Lacey's Law. It protected women, and gave harsher penalties (even harsher than Lacey's Law)to those who knowingly assualted pregnant women, without classifying the fetus as a different person.

I had a miscarriage before I became pregnant with my son. I thought of them both as babies.

That's one reason I'm against legally forced childbearing - it's a sacred responsibility, and too important to reduce to an obligation.

[qb]

52. Time for a mega fucking lawsuit and criminal assault charges.

Maybe a painful hit to the budget will convince Seattle to train their police officers.

[moc]

55. Sorry, but I call bullshit on this one. I was in a car wreck when I was 16w pregnant.

Of course, I was worried. It was my first pregnancy. My OB told me later that I'd have to be "in Shock Trauma with a broken pelvis" before she would have worried about the impact on the pregnancy at that stage.

At 12 weeks gestation the likelihood that a single blow to the abdomen would cause a miscarriage pushes the limits of credibility. The possibility that exposure to pepper spray would be so teratogenic as to cause m/c is just absurd.

I'm not saying what happened to her is excusable, but to blame her m/c on the incident is ridiculous. About 25% of identified pregnancies end in m/c in the first trimester (e.g., by 12-13 weeks gestation).

For the record, I also have a doctorate in maternal and child health, so my knowledge of the risk factors for miscarriage extends beyond my own personal experience with pregnancy.

[Aerows]

60. In any case

She certainly shouldn't have been kicked in the stomach. It's out of control when we have grown men in riot gear beating up women.

[McCamy Taylor]

80. Sorry, but I call bs on this call of bs. For one thing dates are often inaccurate. If this was a 16

week fetus, then the uterus would be above the pelvic girdle and vulnerable to a blow such as a kick to the abdomen. The impact could interfere with the fetal blood supply. In addition, pepper spray could cause maternal hypoxia and elevated catecholamine levels which could also interfere with fetal circulation, similar to a sever asthma attack. If the women really told the officer she was pregnant, he should have exercised caution. Do police routinely kick and pepper spray pregnant women when they are making arrests?

[uppityperson]

83. Except she was initially quoted as saying 8 weeks, now 12 weeks. NOT 16 wks.

It could happen that this was the cause or a really bad coincidence. Except for person upthread, I don't think anyone is saying any excuse to the cop.

[haele]

180. For the first 20 weeks of the kidlet's pregnancy, she was given different conception weeks -

- a range of 3 weeks; pretty much "any time in January" - and in actuality, she caught the pregnancy pretty early, within a few days of implantation. Part of the problem in her case was that the kidlet developed morning-sickness so very quickly during the first trimester, the fetus was in the low birth weight percentile until the last trimester. They kept pushing the due date back every week she saw her OBGYN - at what ended up being 8 weeks, the OBGYN was pretty sure she was only 6 weeks along.
Until the fetus is clearly visible on the ultrasound, it's difficult to tell what exactly stage of development it is in. Each woman's pregnancy is different, and according to the kidlet's OBGYN, the first pregnancy - especially in a young woman, is always a bit confusing because there's no baseline to compare to.

From our own experience, I find it plausible that this young woman - who was sprayed a week ago - may have initially though she was 8 weeks along when she might have actually been 10 to 11 weeks.
And it could have easily taken a week for her body to decide the baby (this fetus was WANTED and the CHOICE was made, so if the mother wants to call it a baby, that gives me no problems whatsoever) was no longer viable and to begin the miscarriage process.

Haele

[roguevalley]

121. thank you, McCamy Taylor.

[emilyg]

85. Thanks.

[roguevalley]

120. and of course everyone on the planet follows the same pattern

in their pregnancies. I have bs meters too. I would say that there are no hard and fast rules for everyone's pregnancy. I know people who tripped and lost babies. To say that her case is impossible is bs. She was kicked in the gut point blank. Your case is your case. Her case is hers. IMHO. Broad brush is so bs. I.M.H.O.

[Bette Noir]

190. Then tell me, Expert, what are the risks to an early pregnancy

of being doused in pepper spray? Don't have the figures on that, do you?

[Dont call me Shirley]

228. Moc, you don't really have a doctorate in maternal health, you couldn't really

Military grade pepper spray can cause a heart attack and sudden death.

[lovuian]

57. this is so sad

and so unnecessary

[chill_wind]

61. "because my family was going to support me in taking care of the child."

But in the meantime they were allowing her and her unborn to be homeless...?

[emilyg]

86. That struck me, too.

[freshwest]

109. Perhaps she regarded the people in the homeless encampment her family. Some do.

[roguevalley]

122. you need to know more homeless kids. She probably was at the

end of a long process of returning to her family. This is one of the most difficult things for families to do, repatriate a child. She had made repproachment and now this. Too terribly sad.

[TorchTheWitch]

138. that and the time line of the pregnancy is what makes me suspicious

of this story. She's said the pregnancy was two months but also said it was three months, and now this about her being homeless yet deciding to have the baby because her family was going to take care of them? She also said she had been at the protest since the beginning yet didn't think she'd be subjected to the same sort of violence that the police were engaging in because she was unnoticeably pregnant? A 19 year old homeless woman so thrilled to be pregnant that she decides to name the baby Miracle?

I don't know. The story just seems weird to me.

[They_Live]

167. self delete

[riderinthestorm]

186. She's going to have a hard time proving this in court. She miscarried 5 days after the incident

within the first trimester when so many pregnancies self-terminate.

[slackmaster]

206. She should get a "Mother of the Year" award for responsible family planning...

...and for going to a protest while pregnant.

[McCamy Taylor]

68. So sad!

[Odin2005]

71. Ugh, That's akin to Manslaughter, the bastards!

:grr:

[FLAprogressive]

96. In some states, the police officer would be charged with murder.

[uppityperson]

100. link to list by state, 2010 and WA law

http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=14386

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9A.32.060
RCW 9A.32.060
Manslaughter in the first degree.

(1) A person is guilty of manslaughter in the first degree when:

(a) He or she recklessly causes the death of another person; or

(b) He or she intentionally and unlawfully kills an unborn quick child by inflicting any injury upon the mother of such child.

(2) Manslaughter in the first degree is a class A felony.

[freshwest]

110. Looks like a slam dunk, thanks for the link to WA law on this.

[Bette Noir]

192. Depends on how they define "quick child."

If it means "after the mom feels movement," as it does in common speech, that'd be about five months along in a first pregnancy.

In any case, I hope this woman sues the uniforms off those beasts, and wins.

[roguevalley]

123. thank you for that. What have we become?

:cry:

[Jackpine Radical]

177. (3) None of these definitions shall apply

in the case of deaths caused by police officers enacting the will of the Corporate State.

[BlueToTheBone]

124. Will they charge the kicking cop with murder?

I'll bet he knows who he is. I wonder if he cares, if he has feelings about what he is doing?

[ohheckyeah]

127. I'm afraid she will have a hard time

with a lawsuit. It's pretty hard I think to say with certainty what caused a miscarriage.

I'm very sorry for her and the cops should be found and prosecuted.

[Zoeisright]

132. She needs to sue the fuck out of the cops and the city.

That's the ONLY thing they understand.

[Richard D]

145. according to the "right to life" ers, this should be prosecuted

as murder.

[unionworks]

157. homeless, pregnant,and young

...of course she has to be lying. :sarcasm: this is the last place I ever expected to see such hearts of stone...

[Fire Walk With Me]

237. The nastys will have a field day with "homeless", as if it is somehow subhuman.

This is tragic beyond words.

[Enthusiast]

158. kr nt

[Shining Jack]

163. K&R n/t

[GusFring]

162. Sad. NT

[piratefish08]

164. are the right to lifers screaming 'murder' yet?

didn't think so.



what a fucking tragedy............

[Locrian]

166. Why?

So some people are blaming the victim for not anticipating the unexpected. (puke)

So by the same token, don't you also have to expect the COPS to anticipate the consequences of THEIR actions? Especially so since in their case they are the DIRECT cause of the violence?

[GeorgeGist]

168. If she were a Teabagger ...

Obama would be outraged.

[Selatius]

174. I'd love to see what the PRO-LIFE people have to say to this.

Their answer would show them to be hypocrites or actual true believers.

It'd be pretty stupid of them to say they're against abortion but not if it's an authority figure in uniform bashing in your stomach and also because you come off as a left-winger.

[joanbarnes]

181. The Right Wingnuts will turn this around and blame the victim.

[BlueIris]

182. Brutality kills. Hope there is some justice for the mother here.

This story is awful.

[glinda]

185. If true watch the righties turn this into "personhood" issue in Courts.

[riderinthestorm]

187. I agree. Her wording on this is loaded with freight. She's going to have trouble proving the cops

are responsible as well. She miscarried 5 days after the incident and well within the first trimester when so many pregnancies self-terminate anyway.

Sad story all around though.

[Liberal_in_LA]

191. awful.

[Pryderi]

198. the right-wing will frame it as, "Abortion by cop" the same way as "suicide by cop". n/t

[Pryderi]

199. dup delete

[alp227]

200. prediction of what MRAs and freepers will say

"that whore deserved it because she's going to be a liberal feminist man-hating single mother leeching off welfare and child support"...a convenient cop out (pun?) from the anti-choice ideology.

[Quartermass]

201. I only know that if this were my girlfriend I'd support her in any decision she made.

It was simply wrong for the police to brutalize her like that. Period.

I hope she sues, and I hope she wins millions of dollars.

I would be enraged if this were my girlfriend.

When I showed her the news she flipped out and took it out on her brother cop. She hasn't spoken to him for days.

And I can't blame her.

She's been crying for days over that bullshit.

[joeybee12]

203. I hope she gets a shitload of money from the Seattle police...knr

[DreamSmoker]

205. K&R

Its here too..
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/22/pregnant-seattle-protester-miscarries-after-being-kicked-pepper-sprayed/

[DesertFlower]

211. OMG. nt

[PatrynXX]

215. That would be the first death then.

And cop who did it should be held for murder. No questions asked.

[Uncle Joe]

216. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Bennyboy.

[PatrynXX]

218. kinda wish I could link these to Facebook

maybe something DU can think about. not sure that's legal but stories like these should have some sort of retweet thing that links to the original link... yeah I'm lazy. maybe the link has it. but then it wouldn't go thru DU

[Bennyboy]

233. you are right, there should be something FROM HERE

to share button link to the story. The Original story only had a like button and that don't get out there like a share does.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

222. The motherfucker who sprayed her needs to be sued into OBLIVION.

I'd get the deed to his house, the title to his car, and his last clean change of underwear.

[Dont call me Shirley]

230. Does anyone have an ID on the cops who did this to her?

[mwrguy]

231. The fascists will try to discredit her story.

She's going to need legal help.

[Deep13]

232. In this state (OH), that's murder. nt