Why is OWS so hard to wrap head around?

[nadinbrzezinski]

Well it has no defined leader. It is messy, it is a direct democracy. And it is horizontal.

This is like nothing you have seen before in US history.

It is also not like any 'ism you are familiar with. It's more like many.

Why all these complaints are actually quite funny to watch. They are mostly comming from people who have not taken the time to actually go there, or at least stream the general assemblies. There are ways to get educated, they require time and yes, effort on your part.

But the efforts will continue to attempt to explain something that really it's not hard to get, but you need to get out of your conventional, top down leadership models.

[Warpy]

1. It's the awakening of class cosciousness

and that's something I've waited my whole life to see.

That's why it's so threatening to the oligarchy. Once we know who we are, the masks get stripped off them, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Among many other things

Yup...that is a big one though.

[Demeter]

3. It Takes a Village

a world-wide village...to see, it, put it in action, and define it.

[FirstLight]

4. The way I see it

Is almost like a dimensional viewpoint...

Most of us have been raised to see the world through polarities. Good/bad up/down them/us

the shift is happening back to UNITY, which is infinity and one all at once. we are all embracing, and we are all leaders

that is a hard shift for many, especially if you are still in the deep sleep of the masses, most of us have to experience a jolt out of our comfort zone before we begin to experience those feelings or understand the concept of altruism. Something about leveling the playing feild has that effect, it makes competition obsolete, and community blossoms.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. That is part of it

But not all of it

It is like it can almost be seen through multiple lenses

:-)

But the medical tents are about that.

[RevStPatrick]

6. For a number of the people that I know...

...who can't wrap their heads around it, the old Upton Sinclair quote applies:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Yup

That also applies.

[RevStPatrick]

8. For example, I have 3 old friends on Facebook...

...we were children and teenagers together in the 70's and lost touch for 30 years.
There was excitement about reconnecting after all that time.
Once that wore off, we started debating.

One of them just retired after 20 years on the NYPD.
One of them is a comptroller for a Fortune 500 company.
One of them is bank VP.

They just can't seem to get it!
I go over and over and over it, and they just can't understand it.
At all.

I spent time in a hippie commune in the Haight-Ashbury, I've been a computer geek, musician and worked briefly in journalism. It seems so obvious to me, and yet these kids just can't grasp it.

I'm fascinated by the notion that people who came from the same place at the same time can end up so different. That's why I even bother...

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Yup, my problem is with some relatives

That fear this revolution. They understand it in that sense. And change is frightening.

[hughee99]

32. For the comptroller and the VP,

I'm sure they don't see themselves or their companies as "the problem", but it probably sounds to them like OWS is saying they are. People who consider themselves to be good people don't like other people telling them that they're "the problem" and it creates an instinctual resistance to the message.

[TBF]

10. America's 1% is used to having everything on their own terms -

they don't like it that they can't order our movement around. It's supposed to conform to their norms, damn it!

Edited to add - and they own the airwaves which is why THEIR version of "confusion" is rampant in the media ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Yup

Working on a longer piece...first thing out of the gate...I don't speak for OWS. Nobody speaks for OWS.

[themadstork]

11. In a world of bosses and masters

horizontal organization and collective unity can be very scary to the right people.

When my mother was lookng to branch out into real estate one of her clients (old white dude that owned many car dealerships) sat her down and told her that "you can only have one master."

Many people believe that others were born simply to serve them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Yup

Again part of it.

[BoWanZi]

14. I'm having a hard time because I want concrete reasonable demands rather than just complaints

The anti-war protests of the '60s had a clear and totally achievable demand, to end the Vietnam war and the atrocities associated with it. The OWS doesn't have that kind of concise agenda, so far it just seems like a congregation of unhappy people all gathered together listing complaints. Union protests have a strong agenda behind them. The NOW protests had a clear agenda. The OWS needs an agenda that the "everyman" can accept and identify with.

I know people here get pissed at people like me who just don't get the OWS as they do but when it comes down to it, I just see thousands of people just making complaints with no true reasonable goal in mind.

Yes, I have seen that list of demands that has been around since the OWS inception but it is so unrealistic. 20 dollars an hour minimum wage. Forgiveness of all debts worldwide. And so on. Totally unachievable without catastrophic effects on the worldwide economy and possible hyper inflation.

I have seen recently people demanding that the banking industry become better regulated. Now THAT is a demand I can sympathize with. Not so unrealistic like the pipe dream demands yet would help to alleviate the class divisions.

That is why people like me, look at the OWS protests kind of awkwardly. I'm not going to say I disagree with the OWS, that is the farthest thing from the truth, I just want to see the OWS become realistic so that the rest of the 99 percent can accept it.

[TBF]

15. You want "reasonable" goals? What is your definition of "reasonable"? nt

[BoWanZi]

17. Reasonable. As in demands that won't cause catastrophic economic collapse.

You gotta make demands that won't ruin the average everyperson's daily life. The majority of the 99 percenters just want their lives to be a little easier and less susceptible to the economy having problems. If you put into place all the unrealistic demands put here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/ , the world wide economy would collapse.

I know it goes against the hard core OWS protester's grain but baby steps.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. You are aware though that they are PROPOSED

Nd have not reached concensus right? I beg of you to get involved and PARTICIPATE

[TBF]

28. I had a feeling you'd say something like that ...

and I have a feeling your "average everyperson" is watching FAUX news on a daily basis, so I'm not about to pander to them. Sorry.

[sibelian]

34. You are unconvincing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Right wing meme

I think Medicare for all is quite concrete

How about student debt relief? Is that concrete

Restore Glass Steagall, is that concrete?

Get corporate money out of politics...

And these are just from the top of my head.

The media is going out of it's way to tell you there are no demands. There are...

Oh yes...living wage...forgot about one of my personal all time favorites.

Oh and I forgot to add, at one time the minimum wage was seen as sheer fantasy too, as well as the ten hoUr day, let alone the eight hour day.

[BoWanZi]

25. Those are more reasonable but 20 dollars an hour min wage? No way.

There are millions of jobs out that would disappear with a living wage of 20 dollars an hour. Tons of small little businesses that paid their employees 7-8 dollars an hour would be forced to shut down. A small coffee stand can't afford to pay their 3 employees 20 dollars an hour.

Getting corporate money out of politics? That is a good one. If we could make that illegal, more power for that one.

Student debt relief? How do you propose that? Invalidating all student loans? What happens to all the universities who rely on student loans? They would just crumble if the students just quit paying on them. And where are we going to get all this money to pay for the invalidated loans? Just print it out of thin air? That sure is working well in other areas.

Glass-Steagall act? Restoring it would be a step in the right direction. Good one.

Medicare is another good one but again, where do we get the money to pay for it? I would LOVE to have medicare, I have been without healthcare for a year now since my job went bye bye. I'm just extremely thankful that my wife has Medicaid but I don't begin to qualify. If we could continue to implement Medicare for all slowly and reasonably, I'm all for that.

But the living wage is a fallacy that will just cause hyper inflation .

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. RW argument made against the minimum wage

Studies show the exact contrary effect. People have money to spend beyond sheer survival. This stimulates the economy. The relationship is quite direct.

As to Medicare. It becomes economies of scale. You are aware Canada spends half per year per erson and gets better outcomes.

I urge you to attend a local ga and get involved.

[HughBeaumont]

19. Um, "To end corporate greed and the atrocities associated with it"??

I'm not recalling where I'm seeing a $20/hr minimum wage demand, but you do know the average wage, in real dollars, has only risen by $1000-2000 dollars per year since 1979, right?

How much more is Corporate America going to steal from the working people of this country? How many more mansions, jets, cars, boats, etc, does one need? How is capitalism supposed to survive if hiring is weak, wages are stagnant, the strong get stronger, the economy becomes more zero-sum every day and we're still wasting piles of tax monies on Pentagon Follies and Wealthy People's Needs?

In that sense, I'm not getting where reasonable wage increases would cause hyperinflation. The average American SHOULD be making $58-60,000 a year if wages kept up with productivity and the cost of living.

[BoWanZi]

29. 20 dollars an hour demand is the first demand by the OWS

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-wall-st-moveme/

First demand.

The problem with 20 dollars an hour is that too many small businesses could not afford to pay their employees unless they raised their product/service prices and that is where inflation comes into play. They raise their prices on goods to compensate for the higher wages and then people making 20 dollars an hour will be no better off than if they made 8 dollars an hour. Vicious circle.

Not all wages/jobs need to be living wage.

[TBF]

31. Oh please ... maybe the owner will have to buy a new Taurus rather than a Humvee this year.

this is just nonsense

[Shandris]

18. Not so very long ago...

...this exact same type of post was made about 'The New Economy'. It was easy for those who 'got' it, and all the old-timey people who weren't capable of thinking of the 'new' way that things worked were just silly little fuddy-duddies who would soon be trampled beneath the power of the new dotnet tycoons. It was going to -change the world-.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you Nadine, but I've always been taught to keep cautionary tales in mind as well, no matter how good something looks. That's all I'm saying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Alas some of us ranted against the new economy

After making the effort to understand it. Cautionary tales and all.

There are dangers, and those who believe this can be controlled...it is quickly reaching the point that those who gave it birth have lost control...in fact, we are there.

[Shandris]

27. Hrm.

My sarcasm meter is a bit off -- I got woke up too early for my 'routine' today, and that never suits me well. But I sense some sarcasm in your first statement...? I'm not certain why, if so. If not, hearty apologies. :)

As for the second, that's quite possible I suppose. I do wonder about those of us who don't do so well with people. The danger of a 'messy democracy' is that it is very, very easy to overlook entire segments of people. The fight for equal rights, civil rights, gay rights, and so on are all fights that went -against- democracy, and in many cases would have been outright -silenced- by democracy. Just random thoughts, I suppose. It's far too early to see where the whole thing will go, but it's the hobgoblin of the moment imo.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Well this started in north America by add busters

Two weeks ago they called for it to take a winter break. As you see that's not quite happening.

[LWolf]

21. It's not, unless someone just doesn't want to. nt

[lunatica]

22. It's also very fluid and changes as challenges come up

It's like trying to hold a fistful of sand methinks. It just keep spilling through your fingers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Yup

[GliderGuider]

33. I see OWS as one part of a general global stirring of consciousness

Environmentalist Paul Hawken wrote a book called "Blessed Unrest" about a movement consisting of thousands of small environmental, social-justice, human-rights groups that is growing around the world.

It's not a movement in the classical sense of a more-or-less organized group of people dedicated to a single mission, at least not until you dig down one layer and uncover the meta-movement that is emerging from it. The adjectives I use to describe the the movement itself would include: grass-roots, localized, leaderless and spontaneous. It consists of over two million small, independent, locally- based groups, that have sprung up in every city on every country on the planet in response to local problems. At last estimate it was growing by 30% a year. I think of it as a planetary immune system, with the Internet for its nervous system and the local groups acting as "Gaia's antibodies".

This meta-movement has no overarching ideology beyond "making the world a better place by addressing local problems". The objectives of the constituent groups span a vast range of concerns, including environmental, ecological, social justice, food sovereignty and food security, human rights, animal rights, aboriginal rights and spiritual development.

Just like OWS, this meta-movement has no unifying organization, and no white male vertebrate leader setting the agenda. As a result the movement as a whole is extremely resilient - no government action anywhere can shut it down, even though individual groups may be suppressed. It is the largest, though largely unrecognized, social movement the world has ever seen.

OWS and the Arab Spring movement are all part of this phenomenon, and are giving it human-rights and political faces.

If I had to describe what's happening in one word, I'd say we're witnessing the Awakening.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. My own view is that it is indeed at the meta level

And the failure of the system to serve a majority. Specifics change from country to country, and the environment s part of it.

[GliderGuider]

36. Yep. We're seeing a global epidemic of consciousness.

Just the thing TPTB were afraid of... Sucks to be them.