Is Apple evil? You decide for yourself

[MattBaggins]

Why is the company worshiped by so many hipsters and non tech savy people so hell bent on censoring and denying women reproductive health info and access to centers for battered women?

http://amaditalks.tumblr.com/post/13513981784/siri

[Atman]

1. Oh dear god...

Your one-sentence post made me know immediately where you're coming from...and made me certain I didn't give a shit about your link.

.

[freshwest]

6. Yup, fits under the definition of 'loaded question.' Here's that link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

[REP]

53. Actual search result screen shots

I'm replying to you just because you're high up on the thread :-)

[baldguy]

2. Is Apple evil? Oh, god yes!

I've known that for a very, very long time. I don't have to click on your link for more proof.

[tomm2thumbs]

3. Saw the article yesterday and it makes one wonder

Will be interesting to see if the problem is corrected and how quickly

(wasn't able to view the link, but this was a recent article on the subject)

http://gizmodo.com/5863445/is-siri-pro-life-apparently-yes/

[REP]

55. Here's some actual search results from the same area as the Gizmodo searcher

[wtmusic]

4. "Tech savy" people buy Windows?

K.

[lbrtbell]

5. Apple and MS are both evil

That's why I use Linux.

Well...that and the fact I got tired of computers that crashed when you looked at them sideways.

I use freeware and open source software for almost everything. Works great and you know you're not supporting crappy companies.

[Lint Head]

8. I agree with you.

[freshwest]

10. Nah, companies aren't evil. People are evil, until they get tired of the game and evolve.

[begin_within]

20. But corporations are people now...

[freshwest]

25. Then maybe they'll get bored and evolve.. The owners, anyway...

[DainBramaged]

12. Fallacy

My desktop has not crashed the entire year.


So you folks spew that crap like FAUX news just to make yourselves feel better?

[Atman]

15. Neither Apple or MS are "evil."

Why are anthropomorphizing them? Why are either "evil?" They both have a corporate charter which says they must make money for their shareholders. That is what ALL corporations are chartered to do. Apple and MS have different corporate philosophies...MS steals stuff and buys out potential competitors and creates products people are forced to use. Apple steals stuff and innovates and creates products people want. Neither of them, however, are "evil." They are just companies selling shit to idiots like us who buy it.

.

[saras]

23. you don't have to anthromorphize to see the results of a system in a society

"They both have a corporate charter which says they must make money for their shareholders."

Yep. They're evil. We didn't know this a hundred years ago, but we simply have more and better information now. That system is NECESSARILY destructive of "higher" values like the environment and human liberty.

[Atman]

27. No, they are corporations. They are chartered to make money.

There is no for-profit corporation chartered to just be a good friend and neighbor. None, not Apple, not Microsoft, not General Electric, not the one I started. As a corporation with shareholders, you are chartered to make money for those who have invested in your company. Period. Now, if you happen to make a wonderful product that people are will to pay top-dollar for, then great! Just ask those Apple shareholders who bought in when the stock was at $8 a share. But it changes nothing. Corporations are chartered to make money. Saying a particular corporation is "evil" because it makes too much money is just silly. You wouldn't be saying that if you were an Apple shareholder.

.

[Atman]

7. Why are women asking their cell phones about such an important decision?

Seriously? You people are upset that Apple Computer doesn't give you proper advice for obtaining an abortion? It's a pretty weighty decision...who the fuck is talking to their CELL PHONE about it, anyway? This is just stupid. I'm sure Linux or a DIY box would provide better results. :eyes:

.

[MattBaggins]

16. So I'm sure if a woman ever said to you "I've been raped"

you would reply with a snarky "Is that so"?

The linked website has a long list of "I can't find that" followed by numerous examples of where they can find similar things.

Finding Viagra but not Plan B is obscene and a smack in the face to women.

[Atman]

17. So ask Linux.

Sorry, Matt. Not buying the bullshit you're selling.

[REP]

56. Here's MY search results from the same area. Hint: they're not called "abortion clinics"

[wtmusic]

69. Thanks - that's what I suspected.

Most likely Siri does a keyword search, and I would think that very few clinics which perform abortions would use that term in their keywords.

[LanternWaste]

31. Precisely. Why should we allow additional avenues of opportunities

Precisely. Why should we allow additional avenues of opportunities for health-related questions....?

A few more :eyes:

[Atman]

32. Why are you relying on Apple Computer for this?

Plain and simple. We've got this bizarre dichotomy going on where we hate Apple because they're a big corporation, and we're pissed off at Apple because A COMPUTER COMPANY won't give women proper health advice. Seriously? Come on...if you have serious health issues, why are you talking to your fucking phone? We've become far to reliant on "devices" when the best device is still between your ears. Do your research, don't ask your stupid cell phone.

.

[johnnie]

9. I just asked Siri...

I just asked Siri "Where can I get an abortion" and it came right back and said "This abortion clinic looks close to you" and popped up the map. Maybe it knew I was male and Apple programed it to not answer for women's voices..lol.

[wtmusic]

14. You didn't phrase it in an awkward way that most humans couldn't understand.

C'mon. With computers this stupid I might as well just ask a person.

[closeupready]

11. Why? Because Jobs made them rich.

$$$$$

[tridim]

13. It's the obscene profit margin they've maintained since day one that is evil

Watching my brother shell out $800 fucking dollars for two new phones for xmas just drives home the point.

[ParkieDem]

18. Ummm ....

Did anyone force your brother to buy those two phones?

Now, their profit margin, that's another question their profit margin is several times that of other "evil" companies like ExxonMobil, etc.

[tridim]

29. He's a victim of the RDF.

It baffles me, because he's very bright. Apple products seem to turn off his brain, which is my point.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

49. "Apple products seem to turn off his brain" LOL

[Javaman]

19. give me some!

:popcorn:

I love watching these types of posts devolve into mac vs ms fights.

like slap fights between geeks.

:popcorn:

[saras]

21. They're functional capitalists, right? They CAN'T HELP IT, or they'll GO OUT OF BUSINESS INSTANTLY

[Dover]

22. Just ask Adam......n/t

[targetpractice]

24. Maybe that blogger has an accent that is difficult for Siri to process?

I know some people with strong NY area accents that are frustrated because Siri doesn't understand them as much as they like.

Two things that make this a BS issue... 1) Siri is in beta and will improve as it processes more real world requests, and 2) Why would anyone think that their new phone is the best way to get specific medical advice?

[MattBaggins]

26. From the screen shots it seems to have captured it fine.

This individual decided to test and log events that other people were also complaining about.

[targetpractice]

28. Oh, my bad... But, do you really think this is deliberate?

Apple is one of the most progressive and inclusive companies around... Al Gore is on the board, their new CEO is gay.

This is a fun issue for the Apple-haters, but seriously?

[MattBaggins]

30. Apple needs to publically address this and put it to rest.

Might just be oversight or a mistake but it looks pretty ugly.

[targetpractice]

33. They've addressed publicly already by labeling Siri "beta"

What do you think they should do?

Apologize to self-righteous bloggers pretending to be women seeking abortions?

Or, do you think Apple should insult actual women everywhere by explaining to them various ways to find an abortion clinics other than relying on beta AI software.

They'll do what they always do... Fix the issue eventually.

[baldguy]

34. The problem isn't that Siri is beta software

Or that using it to find reproductive services might strike some people strange.

It's that Apple repeatedly and consistently refuses to treat the people who use & rely upon their products as adults. There's a reason that tech-savvy geeks characterize Apple products as toys for children. That's how Apple treats them too.

[targetpractice]

42. "Tech-savvy geeks"

You're right... The OP was a red herring to vent about Apple.

There are indeed a bunch of Apple-hating zealots that Apple does refuse to please or even try to court as customers. These "tech savvy geeks" as you label them are simply not a market that Apple wants to serve — Although there are many tech-savvy geeks who do appreciate the technology and beauty of Apple products plus the third-party apps available. There is always a difficult to please population of edge-case users in any product management scenario. It's common for edge-case users to think of themselves as target-users, and they can be quite vocal about it. But, they simply are not. The smart product companies ignore them, and allow other companies to try and serve their needs. Apple is great at doing that.

[baldguy]

46. I'm sorry, are you under the impression that "Tech-savvy geek" was derogatory?

Because that wasn't my intention. "Tech-savvy geeks" run the IT departments of most govt and private institutions in this world.

And it's not that "tech-savvy geeks" hate Apple products, so much as they don't find them particularly useful - because they're made for children. Apple designed them for children, market them that way and support them that way.

[wtmusic]

48. 'Apple products are made for children'.

That may be the least tech-savvy comment on this thread. :eyes:

[baldguy]

59. .

[wtmusic]

60. You have no idea what you're talking about

but that's ok.

Wait I know...just send Osama Windows 7 and a printer, and when he can't get them to sync he'll blow his own brains out. :D

[baldguy]

64. I've been selling computers for manufacturers & distributors for 12 yrs now.

Including Apple, Windows and Linux-based systems. So, yes I do know what I'm talking about.

[wtmusic]

66. Then I can't understand why you wouldn't know that

Microsoft makes deficient, bloated, buggy software that it manages to unload through various market manipulation and intimidation schemes. If their programming ethic was nearly as diligent as their legal one, they might have some justification for it.

That said, they're a programmer's best friend. I make scads of money making people's websites compatible with Internet Explorer, fixing DotNetNuke incompatibilities, updating ASP installs, Windows service packs...the possibilities are endless. May they stumble blindly on forever.

(I've been programming C++, assembly language, and 6 or so interpreted languages on both Macs and PCs since the 80s).

[targetpractice]

52. No, I consider myself a tech-savvy geek sometimes.

However, "tech-savvy geek" is a vague warm-and-fuzzy term that can apply to anyone. Now "IT geek" is much more precise, and yeah IT geeks really don't want to be bothered by Macs. Most older IT geeks actually do hate Macs, the younger ones... not so much.

I've been using Apple technology professionally since 1986... first creatively as a designer, and later as a web developer, development manager since Mac OS X. And, this child has never needed an "IT" person to help me do my job making stuff on Mac, unless it involved me teaching them how to put my Mac on their "IT" network.

[Xithras]

35. It's because Siri isn't a real AI...

...and, like every other pseudo-AI out there, is simply making educated guesses about what you want. There are a million questions that Siri would flub. The fact that one of them happens to be about abortion is vaguely interesting, but ultimately much ado about nothing.

I don't even like Apple, but this attack seems a bit silly.

Oh, and don't foget: Apple didn't write Siri, they just bought it. It's the result of decades worth of university and DoD research on congnitive computing (yes, your tax dollars helped develop it). The research was made public and initially marketed by a company called SRI Labs, who initially released it as an App Store program and were preparing to release alternate versions for the Blackberry and Android, until Apple bought them and made the tech iPhone-only (IMO, that makes Apple more evil than the abortion thing). Siri is a third party application that was integrated into the iPhone, and isn't likely to be biased towards ANY political or social issues supported by (or opposed by) Apple.

[MattBaggins]

38. You didn't check out the link

It wasn't just one question about abortion.

[Xithras]

45. Again, though..

You aren't getting it. Computers aren't intelligent, and even the best AI's have an incredibly difficult time determining context and understanding intent. Siri is neat, but it's nowhere near the "Best AI's". It's going to get quite a few wrong. The word abortion itself has three different meanings, and words with multiple meanings tend to offer the biggest problems to AI's, as they generally don't have context. It's like asking someone, "Where can I get a zinchuahua?" If they don't understand what a "zinchuahua" is, they're not going to be able to answer you, though they might guess that it's a kind of dog because of name similarities.


The OP article is also a bit deceptive. The article gives, as an example, a request phrased as "Where is Allegheny reproductive health center?" You and I understand what the author meant, but computers have no context. Are you looking for the physical middle of reproductive health in Allegheny? Are you looking for a health center named "Allegheny reproductive"? Are you looking for any reproductive health center in Allegheny? To you and I, this is a trivial question. To a context-free AI that doesn't really understand the intricacies of the English language, questions like that are a stumper...especially as it contains MULTIPLE words with multiple meanings. The author goes on to explain why this should be easy, as typing "Allegheny Reproductive" into Google brings back the results, but he fails to actually offer that phrase to Siri as a search option.

Understanding the words is one thing, but understanding CONTEXT is another. Dragon Dictate had functional voice recognition back in the 90's, but it was useless without a cognitive engine capable of transforming those words into actual actions. Siri may be the most advanced AI ever released on a mobile device, but it's still fairly primitive as far as AI's go, and has less cognitive ability than a puppy. It's very easy to confuse it.

The author should have asked the question using more difinitive words, "Where can I terminate a pregnancy", "Where is Planned Parenthood", and on, and on. Eliminate words with multiple meanings, and AI's have a much easier time understanding you.

Oh, and the author was also a bit unfair in comparing the results to Google. While Siri may refer some queries to Google, it doesn't actually use Google for its own results. Abstract questions ("What is abortion") get referred to Wolfram Alpha and Bing. Location information ("where is...") come from Yelp. If your local abortion clinic isn't listed in Yelp, and isn't listed as an abortion clinic, it isn't going to show up.

[Dreamer Tatum]

36. "My phone won't let me have an abortion!"

That's pretty much what you're whining about, so unrec.

[MattBaggins]

39. You didn't even check out the link

So I'll take your unrec with all the consideration it's due.

[Dreamer Tatum]

40. I did read the stupid link.

How many kids were needlessly born before Siri was available?

Does Roe v Wade stipulate that all future wireless communications devices adequately point women to the nearest abortion clinic?

And so on.

Silly.

[alfredo]

37. Siri can be rather contrary. See link.

http://shitthatsirisays.tumblr.com/

[originalpckelly]

41. Same reason there are no porn apps on the iPhone.

Anything of a seriously adult nature appears to be off limits for them. Though that theory is put into question by the viagra question.

They come from the perspective that only dirty people have sex, and that no, the human species does not have sex to procreate. In fact most of us are not the result of said act, in their world.

Just a weird fucking thing.

[targetpractice]

43. That's why QuickTime never became popular on the web...

Microsoft actively pitched Windows Media Player server technology to online porn companies, whereas Apple refused to enable them. This was a Steve Jobs thing.

Historically, porn has been a killer app for all new media "technologies"... The printing press, certainly... It's why VHS video shut out Betamax (Sony refused to license the porn studios)... Online porn was the main driver for optimizing online purchasing early on... There are many examples.

Years ago, I thought this was a ridiculous position for Apple to maintain, too... But, now web standards and the general success of Apple products have proven otherwise.

[wtmusic]

47. Hmm.

I've heard that legend before about Sony prohibiting porn but Sony never had any licenses with film studios - just player manufacturers:

"There's a popular legend that VHS took off because Sony wouldn't let people release porn on Betamax. Well, that's not true; Sony had some control over the Beta licensees, but those companies made VCRs, not movies. The real reason was that early Beta tapes were only an hour long. That was good enough for TV show timeshifting, but no good for movies, dirty or otherwise."

http://www.dansdata.com/gz030.htm

Lots of other online accounts of Beta porn being available (although harder to find).

Any links to support your claim that "Apple refused to enable them (online porn companies)"?

[targetpractice]

51. Wow... Thanks for pooping on that assumption I've held for many years.

Just kidding... Thanks for that update.

Apple didn't "refuse to enable them"... But, they would not pursue or pitch to them, whereas Microsoft's enterprise sales team actively pursued the opportunity.

My claim comes from a conversation over drinks in the 1990's with someone I knew at One Infinite Loop. Sorry, no links.

[wtmusic]

63. I like those references, actually.

Some of the best information is anecdotal, but you have to be a little selective.

Even still, Windows Media is nearly extinct and it has a lot more to do with it just being a crappy format.

[Atman]

58. You people are fucking stupid.

You need an app for porn? Really? How about just using your browser?

[wtmusic]

61. What about when you're driving? nt

[originalpckelly]

65. I personally would not want to look at porn on an iPhone...

it's the point that they are such a controlling company. It's not like they can put it in an adult category.

And web apps are just not as good.

They are also controlling in that they refuse to allow you to install programs without sending it to their app store. What bullshit.

[Ter]

44. Yes, but only because their products don't use USB or SD cards

n/t

[Atman]

57. WTF are you talking about?

My iMac has 2 USB ports, plus 2 more on the keyboard. And I have an SD card reader that plugs into the USB port.

[Ter]

62. Sorry, I should have been more clear

I never used a Mac computer, I was talking about iPhone's, iPad's, and iPod's. :)

[Atman]

67. You're still wrong.

I can dl movies to my iPhone, plug it into my tv and watch in hd. Someone is feeding you bullshit.

[Ter]

70. No, you are wrong

I never said anything about downloading movies to an iPhone. I said it (along with an iPad) lacked USB and SD ports.

[Romulox]

50. I'm more concerned about the suicide factory where all their stuff is made. nt

[AverageJoe90]

54. Apple isn't 'Evil' per se..........

But has made some pretty dumbass business decisions, like building those factories in China.......

[ZombieHorde]

68. Wow, that is pretty damning. Men's sex health was included, but not women's. nt