Is there or is there not a very convenient out for those who want Obama primaried, which goes some-

[patrice]

thing like this: The system is corrupt, anything I do that even incidentally helps the system perpetuates the corruption, therefore, I don't have to do the work X, Y, or Z on or for any of the ISSUES, because that might happen to help Obama/the two-party system, resulting in perpetuation of the corruption.

This just LOOKS like a very convenient out for anyone wanting to primary Obama.

Does ending the system require obstruction and/or impediment of solutions, because any progress might help the enemy somehow?

FYI: I sincerely AGREE regarding the corruption of "the system". I'm just NOT down with a bunch of free riders, who don't (at the expense of others) do the work of change, for the same reason that I'm not down with a bunch of free riding Economic Royalists.

Correct me if I am wrong. Correct me if third-partysts do actual concrete WORK on/for strategic solutions on the issues despite their feelings against certain Democrats. I just personally DON'T see it happening out there in the real world.

Thanks for what you can tell me.

[stevenleser]

1. No, those who want Obama primaried are going to support...

Lee Mercer! http://www.mercerforpresident2012.com/

queue ruffles and flourishes!

Sorry couldnt resist.

[patrice]

2. Uhhh . . . okay, I'm laughing, but I was trying to steer this away from candidate toward ISSUE work.

Thinking of the thousands of workshops I have seen and the hundreds that I have attended = ALWAYS the SAME FEW people.

[patrice]

3. It just looks like a bunch of us have this thing bassackwards. Something is supposed to happen, THEN

they'll sign on; they don't have to make it happen and if that something that is supposed to happen (so that they can then agree) if that thing that is supposed to happen HURTS someone, "So be it."

In the '60s, we called people like that REACTIONARIES and they were considered dead weight, i.e. part of the problem.

[derby378]

4. If you'll recall, those who tried to make single-payer happen in health care reform...

...were quickly escorted out of the chambers by police and then laughed at. It's not that we don't want to work for the change we want to see, it's just that right now, any attempt towards effecting that change is being shut down. This means 2012 will be very important in terms of the future makeup of Congress.

[patrice]

5. Does that preclude the prospect of being effective elsewhere?

I was part of a single payer group here who were taking the PNHP slide-program around anywhere they could get themselves invited in the metro area. Even with a long-standing Green Party group in the mix, I think they maybe had a total of 4-5 presentations in about a year, to maybe 20-30 people tops per event. That's just one example of how you can't get people to do the sustained work of change that I have seen over the years. Everyone wants someone else to do it for them and even then they probably won't show up, so the churches kick our butts every time.

I'll admit a bias toward bottom-up thinking (I'm an educator, my inspiration comes from John Dewey and Paulo Freire), so I just think there are a lot of mistakes being made by wanting to make things happen too high up, when we should be trying to create pressure through numbers from the bottom. What besides person-to-person can overcome the money that is against us?

[derby378]

7. I'm sympathetic to where you're coming from

It took a couple of DUers to convince me to take the first step by becoming a precinct chair. When Democrats made sufficient gains in our area in 2006, I found that I had become an election judge as well. This past year, I also served on the Resolutions Committee for the Texas Democratic Party at our state convention. I believe in bottom-up thinking, and have been encouraging other DUers to get off their butts and work for change from the ground level up. We still have a lot of work to do.

[patrice]

9. Thanks for the work that you do. I'm out there for my candidates too, but issues are foremost for me

I think if we build the numbers on the issues even Obama will respond.

[bobbolink]

10. I won't do anything like that, and it is based on my experience here.

My issue is poverty, and there simply is no interest. Without a supportive group behind me, there is no progress I could make. I simply will no longer put my efforts into anything that doesn't recognize my suffering and the suffering of millions.

I don't need to be told to try harder. What I need is supportive people who are willing to take this seriously, and stop either ignoring poor people or telling us to hit the road.

[derby378]

15. If it helps any, I'm poor, too

I've been out of work since the end of August, and money has been extremely precarious - I hate it when the lights go out because I couldn't scrape up enough for the electric bill. But I just learned today that I've got a new job starting the end of the month.

Keep doing what you're doing on behalf of those below the poverty line - we need all the help we can get. :hi:

[bobbolink]

16. Congrats on the new job!

And thank you for your encouragement on what I am attempting... much appreciated.

I support you working with the party, but unless it is very unusual, you won't get support there if you bring up poverty issues. If you are working for other things within the party, then, yes, you will be accepted and supported. But poverty? No. And that is the dividing line for me.

I hope all goes well with the new job! :toast:

[bobbolink]

8. Thank you for promoting the PNHP message. I did a LOT of volunteer work for the local group,

and was discouraged that they couldn't manage to get beyond preaching to the choir. I'm gratified to hear that other groups did better at that.

Out of curiosity..... did you do any presenting to service groups, such as Optimist, etc?

[patrice]

12. I didn't do presentation, just supported with flyers and such. Love PNHP!!

Our group did not present to Optomists, that I know of, unless it was a small event that someone just did on their own.

I guess what I'm complaining about here is how you get such a cold shoulder when you approach Democratic party types with this kind of stuff. Yeah, we're a red state, my district was represented by a blue dog, a Republican now, so I guess I'm wondering what good all of the Democratic caution did. It's like everyone is waiting to be told from the top what is okay, rather than working to get enough people educated and involved enough to tell the leadership what they WANT.

Feeling kind of fed-up, these days. :shrug:

[bobbolink]

14. Thank you for clarifying. It is why I no longer bother with the party.

It is time to take our case to the public, and do what we can to change hearts and minds.

It is still not too late, and there was a lot of effort to put together your program. I hope you will consider taking it to civic service clubs. They are required to have programs at their meetings, and if yours is well-done, the word gets around and you get requests.

I did this many years ago for the Native Plant Society, my topic being weeds. I got so many requests that I had to go back to the NPS and ask them to make more copies of the slide program, and the script! (I also got an award for my effort!)

It is why I am now working on a PowerPoint on homelessness... "progressives" have shown a distinct lack of interest and caring, so I am taking it to a "captive audience". ~~chortle~~

As I said, I hope you will consider doing the same. The effort to assemble it shouldn't be wasted.

[patrice]

6. Starting too high up in the hierarchy is after-the-fact. Stuff needs to come from the bottom. nt

[Forkboy]

11. I know some Greens who have worked their ass off for change, despite Dems hating them.

It's never stopped them from doing what they think can help us all.

Can Dems do actual concrete WORK on/for strategic solutions on the issues despite their feelings for Greens?

I think we both know the answer to this, if one goes by DU. I know more Dems here who will side with those to their right than side with those to their left. Still want to talk to me about working for solutions?

Please, your OP is an exercise is smugness, nothing more and nothing less. You're not looking for any serious answers, you're just playing to a crowd. That's fine, in and of itself, but at least have the guts to admit this before you go right into smug mode.

And, I beg of people, just once, can we all stop acting as if the "real world" only applies to the one WE personally inhabit?

[defendandprotect]

13. You're making a lot of presumptions --

First, for me, this is about conscience vs the continuance of war --

In fact, Biden now says we should be in Afghanistan to 2014 -- and has been calling

for a year or more for Israel to attack Iran! Biden says, "Israel would be justified

in attacking Iran!" Is this what the Democratic Party is supposed to sound like?

I can't support any further refunding or continuance of these immoral and illegal

wars of aggression. I want this nation to move to more liberal solutions --

and less violent solutions.

My conscience also won't let me support a president who Speaker Pelosi described this

way . . . "President Obama was for a lot of things when he was campaigning ....

which he is no longer for."

Too many back room deals for my conscience -- and all of them put corporations/elites

before the people.

Americans are suffering homelessness, unemployment, impoverishment --

I'd prefer to support some non-corporate candidates, some candidates perhaps who don't

want to be candidates --

Someone like Sen. Bernie Sanders who could certainly run on a Dem ticket --

And many others -- the question is -- "Who do you trust?"