Whew! What a relief! There will NEVER EVER be a group of people or a government like the Nazis!

[Atticus]

Wow, is that great or what?

There is not need to think about, analyze and discuss just how they did what they did; how they slaughtered six million people. Since there will never be others who try to use the same tactics, the same methodology, the same sort of despicable lies to gain power, it is ridiculous to compare the activities of current politicians to those of---you know---"those people".
--
It would be rude and impolitic to compare anything done or said today to something that---"they"---may have done or said back in that time. That time was an aberration that could not possibly recur. People today are kinder and gentler and nobler than those volk, er, folks.

It is OK to call someone's political philosophy "Machiavellian",

It is OK compare a ruthless leader to Caligula or Atilla the Hun or, curiously, even to Mussolini.

Just as long as you don't EVER compare them to the ****s or refer to someone as being like ******.

Just keep your eyes closed and whistle very loudly. We'll get through this.

[dixiegrrrrl]

1. A great weight has been lifted off my shoulders.!!!

I guess Naomo Klein needs to re-name her list....
10 Steps of Mongol Horde
or
10 Steps of Roman Emperor...
or
10 Steps of making the trains run on time?

[indepat]

3. Whew: this surely comes as a great load off my mind

;)

[elleng]

2. Right, don't be rude.

:sarcasm:

[socialist_n_TN]

4. Now atticus, I think we can still use Nazi analogies..........

but NOT until they set up the death camps.

[Enthusiast]

40. Until then they are not the same.

Don't worry.

[Capitalocracy]

5. Why is Hitler our moral compass?

Why is everything OK as long as it's not killing millions of people including about 6 million Jews?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szQOf7uH8II

[TheMadMonk]

10. Care to point out to me where millions didn't die in SE asia.

Where more than a million Iraqis didn't die. South America. Perenially Africa.

Hitler is our moral compass, because otherwise we'd have to admit that collectively we are arguably worse than a greasy looking Austrian.

[Capitalocracy]

11. I actually agree with you

which is something I point out in the video there, but of course, I don't expect you to have to sit through it. ;) It's true, when you think about it, comparison to the Nazis is... well... it just doesn't seem too far off the mark.

Except it's different because we're Amurricans! We're the good guys!

[TheMadMonk]

15. Oh by collectively I mean pretty much every "Descendant of Abraham"

Jews, Christans and Muslims. Moderates notwithstanding. Look to their histories of serial genocide, histories which in far too many ways merge seamlessly into present day happenings and practices.

[TheMadMonk]

19. And forgive my inverse logic. I was agreeing with you first. LOL.

[mix]

20. That's capitalism and imperialism that killed them, not Nazism.

Using Nazism is to describe or elucidate the history of the USA is an historical misdiagnosis.

[TheMadMonk]

26. Nazism is just one form of capitalistic imperialism.

And you are right, Nazism ALONE cannot be applied to what is happening in the US right now.

However it remains a good starting point: The big lie; A stirring up of resentment against sub-populations; An appeal to nationalism; Eugenics of sorts (Passive more or less at the moment, though you don't have to look too far back for active examples of eugenics in the United States.);

And not content with that, the powers that be, seem determined to include some of the worst of the Stasi surveilance state that followed the Nazis in East Germany. Romanesque circuses to keep the masses distracted. Censorship/controlling of the information flow from the Far East. These people are masters of their game and the 20th century gave them opportunity to hone their skills enormously.

No it's not Nazism this time, because they think they've figured out where Hitler et al went wrong. And where certain practices won't work in a different cultural meileu. For certain German regimentation would not be welcomed with open arms in America.

They've dropped those elements and incorporated practices from other totalitarian ideologies, which they think will work for them.

One day it will get it's own name, for now Nazi comparisons provide the greatest overlap with what has gone before.

[mix]

27. You reference Rome, the Communist bloc, and Nazism.

For our own forces and sources of oppression we need only to look to our own history.

Nazism was a concentrated period of political evil. By fixating on it and making it the Rosetta Stone of American history, the crimes of our own imperial republic remain hidden and misdiagnosed.

Give me evidence, not vague correlations.

[Enthusiast]

41. Very well put.

And I agree.

[mix]

48. If it's "one form of capitalistic imperialism"...then where does the fault lie? nt

[justabob]

65. excellent explanation

thank you for that.

"One day it will get it's own name, for now Nazi comparisons provide the greatest overlap with what has gone before."


edit: spellcheck :)

[BOG PERSON]

45. one could compare manifest destiny with nazism

it's an accomplished fact the nazis were definitely inspired by the european settlement of north america, to the point of referring to the slavs as "redskins"

[mix]

46. vague correlations, at best

American imperialism and capitalism are their own set of evils that long precede Nazism.

We need to look at our own history to understand this country's past and current political pathologies, not Nazi Germany.

[Enthusiast]

53. But only Nazi Germany approximates

the potential abuse we could see at the hands of unrestricted American right wing extremists -whatever we call them. People always compare, it is just human nature.

If I could make a quick point. These neo-cons, American Nazis, bad actors, misguided dittoheads or whatever you want to call them, they look at our national arsenal, with all the bio-nuclear weapons, and they droll. The have visions of succeeding where Hitler failed. Like when W Bush made mention of tactical nuclear weapons. He wasn't supposed to mention that term or crusades, He sometimes let his ass over-ride his position as puppet.

[mix]

54. The "Nazism" claim reinforces the current power structure and sources of oppression.

Not only is it historically false, it distracts from analyzing and changing the free market hell of the present.

[Enthusiast]

58. Okay. How about this?

As human beings they are as bad as Nazis but they don't wear uniforms or march funny.

[Enthusiast]

50. Liebestraum with elements of religious imperialism.

Just made that up. But still, you make an interesting point.

[mix]

55. Are Americans flocking to settle in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Of course not. These are false analogies.

Religion is a minor element of these wars (and hardly what the Nazis were fighting for)...they are wars for oil, economic imperialism plain and simple.

[Enthusiast]

57. I was speaking of the Western U.S. nt

[mix]

63. Then are the settler colonies of Britain and France examples of

a proto-"Lebenstraum," as you claim that Manifest Destiny was? And if so, wouldn't that make the Nazis more like us, the inverse of your claim?

[wtmusic]

6. Santayana's Law - those who create silly laws to mock those who invoke

lessons of history are condemned to repeat that history

[mix]

7. Make an historically accurate comparison and someone will listen to you.

Maybe.

[unblock]

8. not in the case of the n*zis. not matter how accurate it may be

if it doesn't involve 6 million gassed jews, then it is dismissed as an outrageous comparison, or worse.

they can copy everything else, just so long as they don't kill a bunch of jews.

and no swastikas, stiff-armed salutes, and square mustaches. too obvious.

oh, and no german accent.

but all the actual laws and power plays and speeches and so on, carefully progressed of course, sure, no problem.

[mix]

9. By "historically accurate" I mean an evidence based argument, not a set of assertions.

The USA has its own capitalist predatory political pathologies, we always have. There is no need to bring the Nazis into it when discussing the crimes of our republic.

Nazism is a trope of ultimate evil for the historically lazy.

[unblock]

14. there's always a way to distinguish present circumstances from the nazis

if you make a fairly narrow point about specific propaganda techniques, for instance, it doesn't matter that many other things were different.

people are quick to dismiss any comparison to the nazis but by applying a far higher standard. you can make a comparison to some other dictator or ruthless empire or whatever and people don't just reject it out of hand like they reject a nazi comparison.

if you say "those are the same propaganda techniques used in the pol pot regime" then someone might say "no they're not" but they won't say, "hey, that's not fair to compare my side to pol pot". and you might have a discussion about the merits of the propaganda techniques in question.

but substitute "nazi" for "pol pot" and you don't get a reasonable conversation, even if the propaganda techniques were straight out of goebbels' playbook.

and that's the problem. yes, i agree, some people go out of their way to find a way to liken their political foes to nazis. but even when the comparison is dead-on, some people also go out of their way to reject the comparison out of hand, without ever responding to the substance of the matter.

[mix]

16. I still think it's a lazy trope.

But hey, that's just me.

[unblock]

21. it also has the advantage of being one of the best studied and most widely known regimes

so even if a comparison to the nazi regime were to be slightly inaccurate, it would be a far more useful starting point than an more accurate one that few others are familiar with.

that is, if one could ever have a reasonable discussion where the nazi comparison is involved.

[mix]

22. I completely reject this historical comparison.

In fact as someone who is anti-capitalist, I find it counter-productive. How can we solve the social injustices of our small worlds if we simply fail to understand the political and economic system in which we live?

If you want to understand where the violence, lies, hate of this country originate look at the period in central and north American history since the late 1400s. Early, Modern, and Post-modern capitalism have killed more than enough. They deserve nor need comparisons.

The Nazi rhetoric is a distraction and naive.

[unblock]

23. fair points.

actually, it's quite sad that we need comparisons of any sort to have our criticisms of horrendous policies heard.

isn't it enough to say, hey, systematically lying to the people is a terrible way for people in power to behave?

no, they'll go on doing it until you can find a nasty sounding label to stick on it, then they try to find a way to make sure that label doesn't stick on them. if they can remain free of any nasty sounding label, they win!

sigh.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. So if I use Franco it will be ok?

how about Benito Mussolini? (which actually has a few aspects that are closer)

And if I really want to go into state control of the media, albeit in our case it is corporate... does Pravda work?

Hell, I can dig really deep into the unknown and use Echeverria for the level of corruption at the highest levels... but that will not have such a good thing. Most people will go WHO?

Of course I could also use our Frankenstein in Chile, that would be Pinochet and the Guerra Sucia, or Argentina and the privatization of Social Security... again WHO?

The big lie WAS perfected by Goebbels... even if Frank Luntz and Fox have taken it well beyond... but it was his baby.

If we are to learn from history we need to be able to enter the sacred and actually violate this taboo already. Never again is not just a nice saying.

[lunatica]

12. The Nazis didn't start out being genocidal. That came late in WWII

Everyone seems to think they were born the day they started the Holocaust. They'd been around long enough that many, many Jews hung around believing nothing would happen to them. Even after they were forced to wear a yellow Star Of David on their clothing.

Nazism started slowly, kind of like the teabaggers.

[WinkyDink]

13. Don't know your meaning of "late," but "The Final Solution" began as early as 1941.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/

[Hannah Bell]

36. The party came to power in 1933. They lost power in 1945. So 1941 = 67%

of the way through their reign = "late".

But other killings & persecutions appeared earlier.

[WinkyDink]

49. (But the poster said "late in WWII", not late in the Nazi regime. :-) )

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Not late, mid war

the Final Solution was signed into policy in 1941.

The war started in 1939

[cali]

17. wowzer. what a cute little army of straw men you have.

[Imagevision]

18. That's underestimating the GOP... [dead serious!]

[Nye Bevan]

24. Using the Holocaust as an analogy to something like opposition to health care reform

is hyperbole (to say the least) and highly offensive to families of Holocaust victims. You know as well as I do that Sarah Palin and Mitt Romney are not going to round people up into concentration camps and fire up the ovens, so there is no need for the wide-eyed innocent mock horror when people call you out on that stuff.

[socialist_n_TN]

25. How the Hell do you know that about them????

They've all but SAID that we're traitors. What do they think needs to be done to traitors?

[Nye Bevan]

44. After reading your post, I concede that you are correct. Mitt Romney is Adolf Hitler.

We should watch out for the Mitt Romney Beer Hall Putsch in the near future.

[socialist_n_TN]

61. Hm. I noticed you left out Ms Palin........

OK. Can Mitt Romney even win the Republican nomination for the presidency? If he does win can he control the Teahadists? Can he control the Koch brothers? And all the rest of the rapacious capitalists that want to keep everything for themsselves and leave nothing for the rest of us? OK, maybe Mitt's not a Nazi. I don't really know, I just know he's a Republican in 2011. A LARGE percentage of 2011 Republicans follow the Nazi playbook. So he's more of a "Mussolini" fascist. Kinder and gentler.

And finally, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER THEY'VE CALLED FOR DEATH CAMPS...yet. If I'm riding in a car that's careening towards Dead Man's Curve at 120 MPH and I know it's there, I'm not going to wait until we actually get INTO the curve before giving warning.

[Nye Bevan]

62. OK, thanks, If you could just keep an eye on the Palin=Hitler, Romney=Mussolini, Nazi playbook

death camp stuff for us, that would be great. :thumbsup:

[socialist_n_TN]

64. Well SOMEBODY'S got to keep up with it................

cause apparently you won't. Don't think it can happen here huh?

And you never did answer the question as to why it's such a problem to point out paralells BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. I'd rather speak now while I can than wait for the inevitablity of it.

[Atticus]

28. It's been quite some time since I could be called either wide-eyed or innocent and I assure you that

none of these responses has evoked any "horror", mock or otherwise.

I have said nothing that should offend anyone whose sensibilities are not confined by what they are told they SHOULD be offended by. As others have mentioned, if you require ovens and millions dead before ANY comparisons can be made, you have effectively censored reason from the conversation.

[Capitalocracy]

33. Every civilized nation has public health care.

The number of Americans whose lives are cut short by the lack of it is in the millions. And they do it knowing full well what they do.

Pretty Nazi-like, if you ask me.

[Enthusiast]

42. "Pretty Nazi-like, if you ask me."

Sure to fuck is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. I sugest you start paying attention to what they say to their base

and the eliminationist language.

Also google up T-4 program.

[RainDog]

29. what about when they choose to appropriate the tactics of Hitler and Stalin?

Jeff Sharlet reported about "The Family" - the lobbying group that encourages "Hitler and Stalin-like" tactics (a quote from one of its members in Sharlet's article (now archived) at Harpers called Jesus Plus Nothing.

When the religious fascists openly call for totalitarian tactics - is it okay then to label them with the political leaders that they choose as their own role models?

they didn't note Jefferson or Washington or any other great defender of democracy as their inspiration for their political actions - they touted Hitler and Stalin.

So, maybe the problem is that they extend their totalitarian, anti-democratic outlook to both ends of the political hate spectrum and we're limiting them to one.

[Overseas]

30. K&R! Excellent! //nt

[Matariki]

34. self delete - I *so* posted in the wrong thread.

:blush:

[kentuck]

35. Just think of all the evil that you don't have to think about...

...if it is not as bad as, you know, as them.

No matter what crime or evil is perpetrated, it can never be equal to what, you know, they did.

We should never forget.

We will always talk about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Oh forgot, K&R

[krispos42]

39. 12 million people

Plus combat casualties against Russians, Britons, and Americans. Plus the dead from the brutal occupation of a variety of countries. Plus the civilian casualties of the war. Hell, the Siege of Leningrad alone killed over a million and half people.

[lapislzi]

43. Romany, homosexuals, the mentally ill

Communists, dissidents, and countless Russians for no apparent reason other than that they were in the way. 12 million.

[Hydra]

60. 12+ million people - all the non-people = 6 million

That fact alone should disturb more people than it does.

[felix_numinous]

47. As long as we allow neo cons to dictate what is politically correct . nt

[WCGreen]

51. I think that is what fuels the continued focus on Nazi Germany on

the cable "History" channels.

Look, you think it is bad here, just look how bad it COULD be...

[WillyT]

52. K & R !!!

Whew... glad that's over.

:evilgrin:

:hi:

[bobthedrummer]

56. "It Can't Happen Here"!!!!!!!!!!!! K&R n/t

[Swamp Rat]

59. So, don't you ever again refer to, or use the word "nazi" in speech and writing.

:spank:

You'll tarnish the word somehow, and perhaps, ruin democracy.