What Is Your Description Of A Successful Businessman?

[Me.]

Is it someone who makes scads if money and contributes to his community or a buccaneer who makes scads of money by pillaging viable companies? Romney is constantly described as a successful businessman while I see him only as a man who has acquired scads of money, as he has made nothing.

[No Elephants]

1. My definition of a successful human is probably the same as my definition of a

successful business person. That would be someone who enjoys life, is responsible and giving to his or her loved ones and friends, wants to do no damage and makes some contribution to the larger community.(I have not really thought much about the definition: this is just what came to the mind immediately.)

As for Romney, I think return on investment overrode wanting to do no damage.

I am also going to add something. I honestly don't feel comfortable going to religion because that should be personal. However, since the right makes so much about religion, I will go there.

I did not watch the Republican convention, but I take it that a lot of the personal testimonials came from fellow Mormons. Well, Romney was a bishop of his church. As such, it is part of the job description to visit members of the church when they are in crisis. Therefore, I don't think his presence in hospital rooms was necessarily evidence of a tender heart in general. He may be tender hearted, or he may be obedient to the church, and/or he may want power within the church. We don't know.

If you have never been a member of a cult that feels oppressed by the outside world, you may not understand the mentality. You pull closer to the members of particular religious community, but as far as "the world," anything goes, as long as you see it as futhering your own religious community.

And I do mean anything, including things expressly prohibited by the religion itself, like lying, and also including things that are illegal under secular law. There is one standard for your conduct with fellow church/cult/sect members and an entirely different standard--or no standard--for your dealings with outsiders.

As to government in particular, there is a weird combination of jingoism and nationalism plus mistrust and an adversarial mentality. I have seen it up close and personal, though I was in denial. (Not Mormons, but Mormons have a special adversarial relationship with government that other religions did not have.)

Mormons perceived themselves as persecuted by government, particularly as to state bigamy laws.

The very first religious freedom case in the U.S. Supreme Court was about whether a state could use its bigamy laws against Mormons when their religion required multiple marriage. (Jon Huntsman was on Daily Show. He and Willard share a great grandad, who had twelve wives.)

The SCOTUS held that the bigamy laws could be enforced, despite the core religious belief. And that relationship between church and government had a profound effect on Mormons that lingers until the present.

When the church itself changed its policy on multiple marriage (at least officially), the very hard core multiple marriage folk went rogue from even the church. Romney's ancestor in particular gave up both church and country (though not citizenship).

They saw themselves as estranged from the mother church, form their native country, where their families had been for generations (Romney's family since colonial days), and also from the Mexicans among whom they lived in their adopted land, but did not intermingle. That is hard core.

Willard's own father was born in Mexico and lived his early years there, so the mentality is not all that all that far from Willard's upbringing and psyche.

Even after the change in marriage policy, though, the Mormons in the U.S. saw it as being in their own self interest to be secretive, to mistrust government, etc. This seems to be a one sided thing, since they prefer no contact by government with Mormons, but seem to feel free, indeed desirous, to intrude into government.

So, you do not allow government to use your premises as a polling place, for examplem(for one thing, lord only knows what might be observed that you would rather keep secret); and you disclose as little as possible to government (or the general public, for that matter). On the other hand, you move heaven and earth to oppose Prop 8 like a juggernaut and seek public office?

That is a very bizarre relationship with government and your fellow citizens, in my opinion. (Am I the only one who finds it odd that Mormons are such a relatively small minority in the U.S., yet had three people running for President in 2012, Huntsman, Romney and Anderson?--though Anderson, like Rubio, claims to be an ex-Mormon.)

When secrecy is very much part of the culture, it's hard for outsiders to assess accurately. However, look at how many times the Mother Church in Utah has promised to stop proxy baptisim of Jews and, every time, continuing baptisms have been discovered later. Clearly, lying to outsiders is not a big problem. Neither are the deep religious wishes of outsiders. So, that tells me that it is similar to the mentality I observed up close and personal.

I am sorry if this sounds like religious bigotry, but unrepentant. I do not trust the "outcast minority religion oppressed by the public in general and government in particular" mentality, especially in public office, not if it's Mormon and not if it's any other sect.

[Me.]

2. As For Lying

Back in the 90's I heard.read that conservatives felt they get a pass when lying to heathens (read dems and those who are not of their religious view), therefore they can do so with impunity.

[No Elephants]

4. In a really tight religious community, ANYthing goes if it is deemed to

prtoect the community. Pedophilia, for example, is covered up. I know that for a fact as to one community.

Another woman who had left told me that that was not the worst thing that had happened there. I asked what could be worse than pedophilia? She would not say.

I asked how they rationalized these things, given what the Bible says. She got so upset she could not answer. As I said, though, it's a real "us against them" mentality. Whatever it takes to protect the community, they think it is their religious duty to God to do. So, take it from there.

If one of them becamse President, anything that reflected badly on him or her would hurt the community, right? So, there would be no limit to what HAD to be done and covered up.

As I said, the sect I was very close to was not the Mormons. But it is scary.

[Divine Discontent]

3. well, on the lying part, the GOP always says the end justifies the means

and as for a successful businessman, clearly rMoney is not it - he's a successful flimflam man who knows how to manipulate a situation.... nothing more...



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[No Elephants]

5. It's not rocket science

When he went to business school, a lot of companies were trading at less than the value of their assets. So, you buy the stock for as little as you can, fire everyone and sell off the assets.

Result = profit for a few, misery for many.

His other big move was to offshore jobs.

Somehow, "offshore" became a Republican word during this campaign. Nonetheless, it is a far more accurate word for what Romney did. If you merely outsource work, it leaves the one company, but might stay in another company located in the U.S. Not so when a job is offshored, which means definitely leaving our country.

It is not perfectly accurate, because sending a job to Canada is not literally off our "shores," but it is more descriptive than outsourcing, which could mean a job leaves one factory, but is done by Americans across town.

Those were his biggest money making moves, aside from driving Bank of New England (including its many branches) into bankruptcy.

Good for him and his investors and partners, bad for America. But, hey, he sings America, the Beautiful horrifically, so we know he's patriotic, right?

Then again, he did shaft his original partners, too.

[Enthusiast]

6. I'm with you, Me. nt