Perceptive write-up comparing Biden and Obama debate styles.

[madfloridian]

From the New York Magazine:

Joe Biden Dispenses With the Niceties

I so much agree with these paragraphs.

The contrast with Obama lies not merely in their very – very, very – different energy levels. Obama approaches debates with the same intellectual method he uses in his books, his speeches, and his policy discussions. He instinctively tries to find common ground first, trying to work within the framework his opponent has established and acknowledge what he agrees with before delineating his disagreements.

So true, and that has annoyed me. We as Democrats have tried too long to find common ground with extremists. We should no longer let them set the tone.

Biden does not bother. He simply casts aside his opponent’s frame and works within his own. He did not ignore Ryan’s arguments, but he barreled over them like an enraged truck driver plowing over orange cones, before moving on to his own intellectual turf. Sometimes he barreled so fast his points were wrong or incomprehensible – most notably when he appeared to attribute the financial crisis to Bush-era fiscal profligacy, and seemed to set the bar for who should pay higher taxes at $1 million a year, not the $250,000 line Obama has labored to align his party behind. But it was a highly effective way to handle the smarmy evasions that Ryan predictably served up.

Biden met his audience at a gut level. Over and over he appealed to them to settle the debate by falling back on long-held prejudices about the two parties. Taxes? Biden set out to utter the phrase “middle class” as many times as he possible could, and to tie Romney and Ryan to the class interest of the very rich. On entitlements, he pulled out of the weeds and reminded voters that Democrats were the party of Social Security and Medicare – “Folks, follow your instincts on this one.” On defense, he repeatedly invoked the possibility that Romney would start another war, which is probably the only real way that foreign policy might enter the thinking of a low-information undecided voter. And three times Biden invoked Romney’s disparagement of the 47%, using it to frame the entire Romney-Ryan economic philosophy.

Notice that the article points out that Ryan was NOT prepared to be attacked or questioned on his talking points. They have gotten away with spouting nonsense so long that they do not expect to be called out on them.

Biden’s most effective, and characteristic moment came when he defended the stimulus, swatting aside Ryan’s insinuations of corruption with statistics showing it had been nearly devoid of fraud. He cornered Ryan by citing the two letters he had written asking for stimulus funds for his district, letters which endorsed the argument that stimulus would create jobs. Ryan appeared not to have prepared for the attack at all.

I appreciated this article because I have felt the frustration of watching the right wing get away with defining all the issues and putting us on the defense.

Thumbs up to Joe Biden tonight.

Crossposted at Daily Kos

Wouldn't mind a rec or two there (hint, hint).

[Enthusiast]

1. Thanks, Mad.

You said: "I so much agree with these paragraphs."

"The contrast with Obama lies not merely in their very – very, very – different energy levels. Obama approaches debates with the same intellectual method he uses in his books, his speeches, and his policy discussions. He instinctively tries to find common ground first, trying to work within the framework his opponent has established and acknowledge what he agrees with before delineating his disagreements."



See, this is what I have been trying to communicate, however ineffectively.

Why try to find common ground with Fascists and right wing extremists? Apparently the President spent too much time studying constitutional law and not enough time learning about the results of 20th Century right wing governance. If the President really understood 20th Century history he would never believe he could find common ground with these people. Apparently the President has failed to understand that the Bush Administration was reviled by most of the world and much of the nation. Pretending that your predecessor is worthy of respect is not a good strategy when your predecessor is recognized as completely wrong by the entire world.

Mr. President, stop pandering to these slimeballs!

Mad, I agree with your thumbs up to Joe Biden.

[No Elephants]

2. Biden got good reviews for substance and not so good for style.

It's funny. I watched the debates on MSNBC, where the narratives were that Biden had done brilliantly and Ryan had lost badly.

The next day, I watched cbs and abc and even Charlie Rose on PBS and the narrative was quite different.

I hope that MSNBC is not getting as bizarre as Fox.

I do like getting news from a left perspective, because everything seems to have a Republican spin, except on MSNBC and, though it's comedy, Stewart and Colbert.

But, I think reporting should stay in reality, too. And "left" is not necessarily synonymous with saying that Democratic officeholders do everything well.

Maybe I am asking for the impossible?

[No Elephants]

3. P.S. I think how Biden did may depend upon what his mission was.

If his mission was to cheer up the Democratic base, he definitely succeeded.

If his mission was to win over as many undecideds as he could, I am not sure he succeeded.

Candidates have to look animated, alert, awake, human, confident of their facts etc., but it is a fine line to being too animated, too much face making, too much playing to the audience, etc.

Too little can be boring and too much can distract from the information they are trying to give--and needlessly give excuses for carping from the media.

[madfloridian]

4. Right now I believe the base needed some cheering up.

As for the "undecided", are they really? Undecided, that is?

[No Elephants]

5. I don't know. "Undecideds" are a group I just don't get.

The group at MSNBC the night of the Biden-Ryan debate that was supposedly undecided did not seeem undecided.

The moderator asked if the Biden-Ryan debate had changed any of their minds. The first hand up was from an older woman. She said that she had reached the conclusion that Romney could lead the country forward.

Really? She was still undecided after the Obama Romney debate, but the Biden Ryan debate convinced her that Romney could lead the country forward?

She was wearing a bright red suit.

[Me.]

6. Good Piece

Wish I could R it

[mercymechap]

7. Biden was just being himself

and he did great. Democrats were disappointed in the lack of fire from Obama during his first debate with Romney, but Biden made up for it and more. Republicans, on the other hand, cannot admit reality, that Ryan was so nervous he had to keep sipping water for his cotton- mouth. They are now pulling excerpts from Biden's comments and distorting them to make them appear like lies, but the one that really took the cake for lying was Ryan - 24 in all! Republicans are not about to admit that Biden did better, I'm not about to agree with them.