Christians Firebomb A Gay Man's House

[DearAbby]

A christian group tried to execute a rural Georgia man by burning him alive in his home over the weekend. A rock was thrown through Chris Staples windows with a note attached threatening to kill him for being Gay. Hours later Staples’ home was engulfed in flames, he barely escaped with his life.

Chris Staples, a citizen of Carroll County GA, woke up with his home set a blaze after receiving a threatening anti-gay note. Staples gives the account of a rock with the threatening note being thrown through his window as he was watching t.v. and finishing a cigarette. He said the note read “We know you’re gay. And God hates gays. You won’t be raping anybody in the county and God’s going to make sure that you burn in hell.’ And something about my daddy… my daddy will make sure you burn in hell.” Several later Staples woke up with his house burning to the ground, and was luck to barely escape.

<snip>

The Carrol County Georgia Sheriff’s Office is investigating the attempted murder and arson as a possible hate crime.


More :http://www.thegaymanifesto.com/2011/01/24/christians-attempt-to-burn-georgia-man-alive-for-being-gay/

[Skip Intro]

1. Christians? You're going to brand an entire religion based on the acts of a lone lunatic? Bullshit.

[DearAbby]

2. It was the title of the article

But hey, when are sane Christians going to stand up and BE VOCAL about this? When are we as Americans going to treat ALL AMERICANS Equally? Not to lay it on your shoulders, just saying.

[regnaD kciN]

3. Us sane Christians have been vocal about this...

...ever since the far-right began their attempts to hijack American Christianity in the late '70s -- but it's awful hard to outshout millions in television funds given the likes of Falwell and Robertson by very-much-NON-religious people like the Hunt brothers (who bankrolled the initial launch of what became the "religious right," with the goal of linking conservatism and religious faith in people's minds). It's especially hard to do so when the mainstream media, with no real interest in religion except when it impacts politics, rushs to the loudest and most-well-promoted voices first and foremost. And it's even harder when many on the progressive side, whether hurt by their own previous experiences in religion or simply holding an atheist position, choose to promote the "Christianity = religious fascism" equation for their own purposes.

[DearAbby]

43. I am sorry

This isn't about you, stop acting like you are being persecuted. This fear is very real to this community. THE FEAR is real. I don't see an organized campaign to deny rights to Christians. But I do see an organized campaign to deny rights and even life to persons of this community.

[roxiejules]

100. Ministers condemn act of hatred against local gay man

http://www.times-georgian.com/view/full_story/11116411/article-Ministers-condemn-act-of-hatred-against-local-gay-man?instance=TG_home_story_offset

As investigators try to find out who targeted a Carroll County man in an alleged hate crime that appears to be fueled by anti-gay religious rhetoric, local spiritual leaders are speaking out against the act and reaching out to the victim.



Read more: Times-Georgian - Ministers condemn act of hatred against local gay man

[WiffenPoof]

148. I'm Baffled By...

...your sense of being persecuted. The Religious Right has never been in better shape. You have more influence over this country now than you have ever had.

I'm an atheist...I'm already less than human in their eyes. Today, Gay people....tomorrow, Atheists.

-PLA

[Skip Intro]

4. Sorry, you also reposted something that is clearly bullshit.

I'm all for equal treatment, that's one reason I object to the OP as it is. Hell, I'm sure I could find something online with titles that say Muslims Kill Innocent People, or Whites war on Blacks or Blacks war on Whites or any number of such bullshit extrapolations based on a single incident by someone who happened to belong to some group trying to hurt someone who happened to belong to another group. But to take such an incident, and then use a broad brush to paint an entire group of people as responsible, is just what I said it is, bullshit.

I'm sorry, I'm not just going to move past that and carry on a conversation about hate crimes. Hate crimes start with such malevolent characterizations of groups of people.

[stranger81]

55. Seriously??? The only hate crime here was perpetrated against a gay man,

not by the OP by pointing out that the criminal in this case purports to be a Christian.

Christians are not the victim here.

[arthritisR_US]

96. yep, that's how I see it too. n/t

[Dappleganger]

14. Stupid fundies are not OUR fault.

You know as well as I do that they will not listen to anyone else. Stop blaming the sane people for what the stupid does.

[cleanhippie]

26. Are "fundies" a minority or a majority in your religion?

From the outside looking in, it would seem that they are a very vocal majority. Is that right?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

31. About 80% of Americans are Christian

Something like 25% of Americans are evangelical so that means most Christians are NOT fundamentalist.

[cleanhippie]

40. Interesting.

Then why are the remaining 75% of christians allowing the 25% to drive the bus? More importantly, why do those 75% just sit quietly and do nothing?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

57. I don't know.

My guess is that many people who identify as Christian don't really think about religion all that much. Many people will say they're Christian but don't do anything in their life based on religion on way or another.

[Dappleganger]

59. WE aren't.

We have no control over the fact that the media loves to give attention to crazy people.

[Shandris]

65. Good question.

Why are we letting the top 1% drive the bus for the other 99% of us in this country.

Don't ask silly questions that don't have good answers, neh?

Back to the OP: I hope this guy gets everything that's coming to him. His intent may have been a hate crime, but his action was horrific no matter whom it was against.

[WiffenPoof]

149. Well Stated! n/t

[uppityperson]

166. You could say the same thing about any group that has fundies.

There is a minority in most religions and they are the ones who do the nasty stuff and get the OMG publicity. I do not think the majority sits there quietly and do nothing. Many I know of are very outspoken and working actively towards humaneness and tolerance.

[Goblinmonger]

48. Way to play with words

Evangelical's are not the only fundamentalists. But I'm guessing you know that. If you don't, stop using words you don't know the meaning of.

Over half the country believes in creationism. Over 75% of the country is Christian. Doesn't take a math major to know that there are a serious number (like, a majority) of Christians that are either ignorant or fucking insane or both.

Deal with it.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

56. The number of fundamentalists

would be even less than the number of evangelicals.If you want exact numbers, I can dig them up.

I'm not necessarily disputing you on that creationism number but is it that over half believe in young- earth creationism? Or that over half believe God had a hand in guiding evolution?

Many people in are country are ignorant, yes. I thought we were talking about specific Christian beliefs. The post above me claimed most Christians seem to be fundamentalist and I refuted that. One can be Christian and ignorant without being fundamentalist or evangelical. One can be non-Christian and ignorant too.

[sarcasmo]

159. Guess being an Atheist I must be the super minority.

[Dappleganger]

58. They are a minority in my religion...

but they are also quite diverse. I have no say or control over them. Stop with the blanket broad-bashing.

[LanternWaste]

68. I imagine that as long the vocal minority

"Is that right?.."
Not quite right. Try reading 'Bad Faith' by Kressel and 'A Testament of Sindh: Ethnic and Religious Extremism; A Perspective' by Korejo

I imagine that as long the vocal minority holds the microphone, he'll be heard above the rank and file who speak without amplification... although I can readily understand how that may bamboozle those who peer into it with merely a cursory glance.

[timtom]

71. Are teabaggers a majority or a minority in this country?

A majority, judging from the attention they get.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[EOTE]

28. The title seems accurate to me.

According to the article, it was a Christian group, not a lone nutcase. If it were any number of other groups, I doubt most would have had a problem with the wording.

[slackmaster]

35. It wasn't a Christian group any more than the KKK is a Christian group

They call themselves Christians, but they're really terrorists.

The Nazis called themselves Christians too, BTW.

[EOTE]

46. So, the "No true Scottsman" fallacy.

Yes, the Nazis CALL themselves Christians, so do the KKK. Unfortunately, there are a number of hateful groups that associate themselves with Christianity. If you don't think they're REAL Christians, then perhaps more REAL Christians need to be spending more time denouncing these horrific acts. I'm an agnostic. If an agnostic/atheist group commits a horrible crime, I don't have the luxury of saying that person/group isn't a REAL agnostic/atheist. Believe it or not, there are PLENTY of extremely hateful Christians out there.

[slackmaster]

77. WADR I believe it is you who have committed a No True Scotsman, not me

...perhaps more REAL Christians need to be spending more time denouncing these horrific acts...

I don't believe any self-described Christians who I know personally would do anything other than denounce them.

If an agnostic/atheist group commits a horrible crime, I don't have the luxury of saying that person/group isn't a REAL agnostic/atheist.

False dilemma. You are free to claim that the crime was not attributable to the agnosticism or atheism of the person or group.

[EOTE]

104. The very christians who committed this act haven't denounced it.

Neither will any of the millions of Christians who are homophobic and actively preach hate against the gay community. The fact that the Christians YOU know wouldn't do anything other than denounce these acts means very little. You don't get to choose what a christian is or isn't. There are plenty of people who will say that Jesus hates the same people they do. You don't get to define who a Christian is anymore than they do.

[slackmaster]

117. Yes, they haven't denounced it because they are terrorists

Not because they are Christians.

[EOTE]

122. How incredibly convenient.

Christians can't murder people because Christians don't murder. Terrorists murder, so any time it's claimed a Christian has murdered, they're actually terrorists. I hate to bring this up again, but you're perfectly exemplifying the "No true Scottsman" fallacy. Sorry, but you don't get to decide who the true Christians are.

[slackmaster]

136. That's a classic Straw Man

Christians can't murder people because Christians don't murder.

I've never said any such thing. Shame on you.

Sorry, but you don't get to decide who the true Christians are.

Neither do you.

[EOTE]

139. That's exactly what you're suggesting, whether you acknowledge it or not.

You are saying that these people murder because they're terrorists, not because they're christian. How exactly would you know their motivations? If you go by what they wrote, they are explicitly motivated by Christianity. In your mind, is ANYONE ever motivated to do bad things by religion? Or are people only motivated to do bad things by religions OTHER than Christianity? Fact number one, these people are Christians. Fact number 2, these people committed a horrific act which was motivated by their interpretation of Christianity. You can argue all you want, but those facts won't go away.

[slackmaster]

140. You've crossed the line here, presenting your opinions as "facts"

So much for a meaningful dialogue.

[EOTE]

142. Those are facts as surely as we need oxygen to live.

Of course, in your eyes Christians couldn't possibly do horrific things. Or if they DO do horrific things, it's because they're horrific people, not because they're Christians. No, these people are clearly referencing the bible because they're terrorists, not because they're influenced by the bible.

[slackmaster]

143. Repeating a Straw Man doesn't make it a better description of my position

Have I mentioned that I am not now a Christian?

[EOTE]

145. Do I care what your religion is? NT

[Nuclear Unicorn]

156. And Obama is an anti-corporate progressive liberal...the D next to his name proves it

Meanwhile, my husband can laugh and joke around and spend the weekend with my best friend who also happens to be gay.

My best friend was also both maid of honor and best man at our wedding and my in-laws, fundie christians, accepted him openly and warmly with hugs and handshakes.

So I wonder what the definitons are supposed to be.

There are also many good christians here at DU.

FYI - the word "prejudice" means to pre-judge, as in, before a proper review of the evidence. People subjected to prejudice, whether gays or christians, are being judged not by who they are as individuals but simply for belonging to a group. It's ugly and I reject it.

[EOTE]

157. Was this reply meant for me?

I'm not quite sure what context you're aiming for. I am very aware that there are good and bad people of all stripes. But to say that these horrific acts weren't committed by Christians or that they were committed in spite of Christianity rather than because of it is just wrong. People do bad things all the time because of religion, Christianity is certainly not exempt from that.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

161. OK, but claiming to be part of a group does not make it so

The claimant must share the values of that group.

Would you define someone as pro-abortion rights if they defined that committment as being confined to the first 24 hours after conception?

I don't think the issue here is christianity so much as it is bigotry and prejudice.

I'm an atheist. I don't share my in-laws values on many things but they shared my value for my best friend and in that respect I have no desire to see them change or walk away from whatever made them that way even if on an existential level, that thing does not exist.

And can also say atheism is not a panacaea against mass killings.

Again, prejudice and bigotry are the culprits.

[EOTE]

163. A large number of Christians share those values.

So I think it's wishful thinking to suggest that group is not comprised of Christians simply because they don't share a particular persons values.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

167. Share what values? For firebombing?

If they did this story would be the rule, not the exception.

And if this is the rule does that mean you personally are responsible for the mass killings by organized groups of atheists? Or do you exempt yourself because you do not share the values that motivated the killers?

[EOTE]

173. It's neither a rule nor an exception.

Certainly the majority of Christians don't support the firebombing of gays. I'd also doubt that a majority of Christians would solidly condemn these actions when informed of them. My problem with religions in general is two fold:

1) A "fringe" portion of the religion comprised of fanatics which slowly becomes the plurality and certainly the most vocal practitioners.

2) The lack of response when that "fringe" commits some horrible, violent act.

Far too many Christians (and members of just about every other religion) engage in this type of behavior. And the lack of a vehement response to this type of behavior leads me to believe that most don't have too big of a problem with it.

And with regard to your second paragraph. I certainly don't think I'm responsible for the mass killings by organized groups of atheists (I'm having to think back quite a long ways to think of one, Stalin perhaps?). I'm not suggesting that any Christians not specifically involved in this horrific act are to blame either. What I'm suggesting is that the actions of these people reflects poorly upon Christianity just as if the same act would have been committed by a group of militant atheists (which thankfully, never seems to happen).

[EOTE]

111. And you are free to claim that this attack wasn't attributable to Christianity.

But you can't say that this attack wasn't attributable to Christians. Because it was.

[slackmaster]

118. It's inflammatory to say so, just as it would be to focus on their race or ethnicity

The reason they committed the crime is that they are terrorists.

[EOTE]

124. And it's surely impossible for a christian to also be a terrorist.

And for their terrorist acts to be inspired by their religious beliefs. Any abortion doctor will tell you that. I'm sorry that you can't see how religion and terrorism could ever possibly be linked. I'd say that 90+% of all terrorism is directly linked to religion.

[slackmaster]

138. I've never said any such thing.

My point in this thread is that the headline published in ONE of two sources was intentionally written as to be inflammatory toward Christians in general.

I'm sorry that you can't see how religion and terrorism could ever possibly be linked. I'd say that 90+% of all terrorism is directly linked to religion.

I can see it just fine, but it's quite clear to me that most of the religion-motivated terrorism in the world today arises from Islam, not Christianity.

I believe that if the same attack had been perpetuated by a group of Muslim terrorists, people would be all over this board denouncing the mention of Islam in news stories as prejudicial and bigoted. I suppose you can have it both ways if you insist, but I'm not going to let it slide without comment.

[EOTE]

141. Ahhh, I see. So it's the OTHER religions that are a problem.

I guess it's the Muslims threatening and killing abortion doctors everywhere. I guess it's the Muslims who routinely beat and kill gay youth in this country. Of course, I'm sure there's a Muslim version of you somewhere talking about how those weren't TRUE Muslims who committed numerous terrorist acts.

And you won't ever catch me denouncing the mentioning of Islam when pertaining to terrorists. I happen to think that religion in general is pretty silly. Silly is fine, but when religion encourages murder, it's downright awful.

[slackmaster]

144. Replacing one Straw Man with another Straw Man doesn't result in an accurate depiction of my view

Nice try.

[EOTE]

147. This term "Straw Man", it does not mean what you think it does.

An argument that upsets you is not a Straw Man. Putting your words in context is also not a straw man. But hey, keep bringing it up when faced with words you disagree with. Someone might think you're intelligent for doing so.

[WiffenPoof]

150. Wow...Unbelievable...

"I can see it just fine, but it's quite clear to me that most of the religion-motivated terrorism in the world today arises from Islam, not Christianity."

I'm glad that you used the word "today." Don't bother looking at the entirety of Christian history. Need I list them?

Is it any wonder that many people see little or no difference between religious beliefs?

-PLA

[Donald Ian Rankin]

47. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The KKK is a group of Christians, but not a Christian group, because their collective raison d'etre is not Christianity. With these guys, it looks like it may have been.

[Goblinmonger]

49. The KKK IS Christian.

You may not want to claim them, but they are the far right of Christianity.

And the Nazis were Christian, too.

[slackmaster]

79. The horrible crimes they commit are not a result of their religion

They commit crimes because they are terrorists.

[Goblinmonger]

86. But they are terrorists because their religion

tells them that they are God's chosen people and the rest are "mud people" made from dirt.

[slackmaster]

98. I think 99% of Christians, the Vatican, and others would disagree with their interpretation

Christianity is not defined by the behavior of a fringe group of Christians.

[cleanhippie]

125. They themselves would disagree with you.

They do what they do because they think that is the way god wants it.

[ohheckyeah]

132. The world doesn't get that

distinction nor should it have to. For the most part Christians have stood by and watched the hatred grow in these fundamentalist churches and been silent. The church as a whole should have condemned these hate churches when they first got out of the gate but it didn't. Now, these heretical hatemongers have grown powerful and wealthy and those who should have spoken up and kicked them out of the body of Christ in a very public way moan that they don't have the power to be heard.

Many Christians continue to fill the coffers of churches that teach oppression and then claim that those teachers don't represent them. It's time to put action behind words and to starve the beast. I wouldn't any more consider walking into and 'worshiping' with a local church that teaches hate than I would attend a KKK meeting. I don't give my money or time to hate groups of any kind regardless of the name attached to them.

Yes, as a Christian I am offended, but not by the OP calling a spade a spade. I am offended at any and every Christian who bastardizes the religion with their justifications of hate and oppression. I have some of them in my own family and I can guarantee you they know how I feel and have been called on the misuse of the Bible to justify their bigotry, racism and sexism.

As for the Christians who are offended by the OP...this isn't about you. This is about a man who had his home burned to the ground. Your hurt feelings are self centered and self pitying and the pity should be reserved for the man who was the victim of hate.....hate that IS taught in many churches.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. Come on, don't be vague, tell us how you really feel.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[roxiejules]

95. It sounds like they DID stand up...

http://www.times-georgian.com/view/full_story/11116411/article-Ministers-condemn-act-of-hatred-against-local-gay-man?instance=TG_home_story_offset


As investigators try to find out who targeted a Carroll County man in an alleged hate crime that appears to be fueled by anti-gay religious rhetoric, local spiritual leaders are speaking out against the act and reaching out to the victim.



Read more: Times-Georgian - Ministers condemn act of hatred against local gay man

[comsymp]

126. Welll, yes and no

FTFA:

“We must realize that God places us in our communities for a reason and that is to reach out and make an impact on the community in which we live,” he said. “This (helping rebuild) is neither about Chris, nor about the crimes that were committed. This is about the church being a light unto the world and reaching out and loving our neighbors as ourselves. This is about allowing Chris, our community and the person or people responsible for this crime the opportunity to witness firsthand the Love and Grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

Read more: Times-Georgian - Ministers condemn act of hatred against local gay man


So yeah, they're doing a good thing - helping to rebuild a neighbor's home (and kudos for that!), just as they might after any accidental house fire or personal disaster, BUT I wouldn't really say that 2 of the 3 Revs quoted are going much beyond that. Now, Fr. Helminiak, Priest/Professor/LAMMBDA advisor, OTOH, actually addresses anti-gay religious violence...

[polmaven]

8. I'm with you on that.

It gets really tiresome that all Christians are blamed any time a nut case commits a very unChristian act.

[Goblinmonger]

50. They have biblical support for their viewpoints.

Who made you god to decide that THEY are the UN-Christian ones and YOU are the voice of god?

[polmaven]

70. The Christian Bible

(aka the New Testament) does NOT promote hate or murder or anything else like what this group did. I have been a Christian all of my 60 years. I have never said I am the voice of God. I said the acts they committed are not acts that Jesus would have committed, nor approved of. Nothing in the Christian Bible would lead a Christian to believe otherwise.

Actually, I have had discussions about this type of behavior with several ordained pastors, men and women both. They, too, agree.

[justiceischeap]

78. Except these folks go by Old Testament and not New Testament

So, there's no Jesus there.

[polmaven]

89. If they do not"go by"

the "New Testament", then they are not Christians. The "New Testament" is what Christianity is all about.

[justiceischeap]

And many of these Theofascists would disagree.

Because, obviously, without God, there'd be no Jesus. So there has to be an Old Testament before the New Testament, they would also argue, those of the louder voices, that your ignoring the Old Testament means *you're* failing as a Christian. And guess what, more and more people are starting to feel this way. They may be a minority but so is the gay community and look at what that "minority" achieved in California with Prop 8. Look what they just did in Wyoming (not that I'd expect any different there), look what they're doing all across the US. You can't claim that every person who helped pass Prop 8 in California are the "crazy" theofascists.

[polmaven]

123. I didn't say we "ignore" the Old Testament.

But to "go by" the Old Testament and not the New Testament is not being a Christian. Much of what the a**holes point to as being their reasons for doing what they do was countered by Jesus' words and actions.

[msanthrope]

164. So the 10 Commandments no longer apply? Or are you just

cherry-picking the parts you like, and telling yourself you don't have to follow the inconvenient parts?

[WiffenPoof]

151. Well...Perhaps These Priests...

...should find an effective way of carrying that conversation to a broader audience.

-PLA

[jberryhill]

9. Were they Muslims?

[Jokerman]

10. Can you refute anything in the article?

I'll agree that the article uses inflammatory language and is clearly written from a particular point of view but that doesn't make the entire story bullshit. "Alleged" or "possible" ties to christian hate groups may have been better words to describe these criminals but like the writer, I have little doubt that people who did this call themselves christian.

I see justifiable fear and anger in the writing but not the condemnation of an entire religion as you do.

[roguevalley]

13. actually, perverted bigots hiding behind Christianity flamed a man's

house because they hate. nothing in the bible can justify this from Jesus. Jesus would have been in the house with the man.

[cleanhippie]

27. Are you saying that the people responsible for this firebombing are not "real" christians?

[Warren DeMontague]

93. No True Scotsman! No True Scotsman!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[cleanhippie]

105. uh, thanks?

was hoping for an answer from the poster I asked.

[Warren DeMontague]

162. Yeah, I was agreeing with you.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[cleanhippie]

168. Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

[roguevalley]

107. yes I am. I don't recall Jesus saying this was okay and any other

source for their actions is bogus. They aren't Christians. This is not Christianity.

[Jokerman]

113. This IS christianity as it is practiced by many people.

So what gives you the authority to decide who is the "true christian"?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. That is completely illogical. "Christians" does not mean "All Christians".

Some Christians are murderers, just like some atheists, some Muslims and some Jews.

These murderers happened to be Christians.

I'm sure they happened to be lots of other things too, but it is reasonable to highlight their Christianity because that was the motive they claimed for this attempted murder.

Many Christians are not homophobes, and nearly all homophobic Christians are not murderers. These ones were both, but pointing that out is not branding anyone but them.

[Heidi]

30. A more accurate headline would have been "Christian extremists..." or "Christian fundamentalists."

One should strive for accuracy in reporting and copy editing, and "Christian extremists," "Christian fundamentalists..." or simply "Anti-gay hate faction..." is more accurate than "Christians..."

[Donald Ian Rankin]

44. Extremists yes, but also more verbose (and I'm not sure fundamentalists is accurate).

You could expand the headline indefinately in the cause of further precision.

I think that most readers will take it for granted that these were extremists - moderate Christians don't usually try to burn people alive - and so it's probably not a worthwhile clause to add to a headline.

I don't know whether they were fundamentalists or not.

[polmaven]

72. One word is "verbose"??

:shrug:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

154. It's a 20-25% increase in headline length.

Yes, using it would not cause the sky to fall; no, not doing so will not either.

[Goblinmonger]

51. I think they are more of the majority than you let on.

Sure, the violence part may put them on the fringe, but why do you think gay marriage was struck down in California? I'm putting my money on a whole shitload of Christians getting out there and voting based on their religious beliefs. I'd be happy to hear your theories.

[Scout]

32. yup, the same way that "Men" does not mean "All Men" n/t

[Heidi]

74. I actually agree that broadbrushes of "men" are horseshit.

I love men, even went so far as to marry one. Hell, my cat's male, and nine out of my 10 best friends for life are male. I wouldn't want any man I care about to be broadbrushed as men often are in the MSM. Nor would I want all women broadbrushed-- as some special interest groups tend to paint all of us vagina-burdened humans -- as hateful, man-hating, alimony-coveting, visitation-denying, man-dependent "bitches."

It cuts both ways, annit?

[Bluenorthwest]

22. It does not say that. Honest speaking is big in Christianity.

Just for fun, I want to share with you what I hear when folks get bent out of shape about the truth of some who also use that title. I hear idol worship, the respect given to the word 'Christian' is nonsense, in that faith all honor goes to God, not to the words about him. Those who get huffy about the title are focused on that thing, not upon the thing the title describes.
When I read these things, I recall what Jesus said about being mocked for his name's sake, which is that it would happen, and so would persecution, but his followers he tells to rejoice in that mockery and persecution. He never taught that a hair splitting about who is and who is not qualified to use the word be pursued to clear up who was one of his. His teaching was that one's actions should speak one's truth, and that even if you call it a fig tree, the olive tree will still bear olives.
This is the United States, we all know Christians of all sorts, from saints to fakes and con men. But when you ask others to take part in judging who is and who is not 'really' a Christian, you are asking them to do that which Jesus taught not to do, that which he said is only for God. So you ask that we break the teachings of Jesus in order to protect a word created to describe his followers.
Should one break the teachings to defend the students?

[cleanhippie]

25. Yes, since the shoe fits AND its the title of the article.

[NorthCarolina]

34. Not all Christians, but whoever is responsible probably considers themselves to BE a Christian. nt

[Goblinmonger]

45. They are Christians and did it because of their religious beliefs.

Sorry that is offense to you but it is the truth.

[Deep13]

61. It doesn't say which "Christian hate group" it is...

...or how they know that it was them. Still, it is a pretty good guess. The only real resistence to gay rights or even tolerance in this country comes from religious people, especially Christians. Organized opposition comes most from the Mormon church, the R.C. Church and various conservative Protestant churches.

[mkultra]

90. Seems legit to me

burning in hell and all pretty much puts the pin in it as a christian. And no, christianity teaches hate so its not like the religion as a whole gets a pass.

[Warren DeMontague]

94. It's so important that, in the first post of the thread, you identified the "real" victims, here.

:eyes:

[tekisui]

110. It was a christian group. Not bullshit at all.

[queerart]

114. Indeed.....

A Lone Lunatic.....


IF ONLY.......



Here's a video for you:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miULdI-qocg&feature=player_embedded



... and that "lone lunatic" is part of a group......



... and that group is part of a larger movement of Christian Terrorists


------------------------------------------------------------------------
ter·ror·ist
   /ˈtɛrərɪst/ Show Spelled
–noun

1.a person, usually a member of a group, who uses or advocates terrorism.

2.a person who terrorizes or frightens others.

3.(formerly) a member of a political group in russia aiming at the demoralization of the government by terror.

4.an agent or partisan of the revolutionary tribunal during the Reign of Terror in France.
–adjective

5.of, pertaining to, or characteristic of terrorism or terrorists: terrorist tactics.

[knitter4democracy]

5. "Possible" hate crime?

Um, how is this anything other than a hate crime? That's crazy.

[surrealAmerican]

7. I'm guessing that they don't have solid evidence ...

... that the rock-thrower note-writers are the same people who started the fire. It's very likely, but they need to prove it.

[knitter4democracy]

146. Oh, I can see why the police might say that--it just stuck out.

Guy gets death threat. Someone tries to kill him. I'm going to go with they're connected somehow.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

18. +1

I was wondering the exact same thing. Given the note he received right before being firebombed, I don't know how anybody could be unsure. :shrug:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

19. Well, it could be that whoever wrote the note wanted people to think it was.

This is clearly either a hate crime or a deliberate attempt to make it look like one. The former are more common than the latter, but the latter is not impossible.

[WiffenPoof]

153. So...You're Saying...

...that it is possible that someone...like an activist Atheist might be trying to make Christians look bad.

Not sure what one can say about such a reach.

-PLA

[Donald Ian Rankin]

155. No, I'm saying someone with a grudge against this man might want to avoid suspicion.

The "activist trying to make Christians look bad" theory is not completely impossible either, but it's (even) more unlikely.

Certainly, if I lived in one of the more conservative and bigot-dense parts of the USA and wanted a gay man dead for some reason, I might well try to make it look like a hate crime (for some value of "might well" including "actually I don't commit murders", obviously..).

Hate crime is certainly the way to bet, but it's not a certainty (based on the OP - it may be that there's a great deal of other evidence that makes it either certain orunlikely)

[rko_24550]

106. +100

[madrchsod]

6. it was`t till further into the article that "christian hate groups"...

were mentioned with a link to the splc web site.http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/winter/the-hard-liners

poorly written headline by the gay manifesto.

[ThatsMyBarack]

11. Sounds like shit....

from the Fred Phelps crowd.

[Heidi]

12. Ministers condemn act of hatred against local gay man (church will help rebuild home)

9 hrs ago

As investigators try to find out who targeted a Carroll County man in an alleged hate crime that appears to be fueled by anti-gay religious rhetoric, local spiritual leaders are speaking out against the act and reaching out to the victim.

Keith Jiles, pastor of Word of Life Gospel Ministries in Carrollton, said he reacted with disbelief when he heard that Christopher Staples’ home on Alvin Drive was burned Sunday morning after a large rock wrapped with a threatening note containing anti-gay slurs was thrown through a window the house Saturday night.

Jiles said the church will help by rebuilding Staples’ home.

<snip>

University of West Georgia psychology professor Daniel Helminiak believes the anti-gay religious movement plays a major role in allowing violence against gay and lesbian people. Helminiak is an advisor for LAMBDA, the university’s only gay-straight alliance organization and wrote the best-selling book, “What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality.”

He was sad to hear that the incident happened especially when he heard the religious rhetoric surrounding the threats.

“It’s absolutely hate in the name of God,” Helminiak said.

Read more at the Times-Georgian

[Judi Lynn]

20. Thanks for adding more information. Very helpful. n/t

[HopeHoops]

15. I'm sure Jesus would approve.

:sarcasm:

[LynneSin]

16. If Gay people tried to burn down the house of a Christian this would be front page news EVERYWHERE

such hypocrisy!

[Heidi]

21. I agree it would be spun every which way, but that would be a sh!tty headline, too. (nt)

[Bluenorthwest]

29. In some nations, Christian groups are openly attempting to

make laws to execute us, and they are assisted by American 'ministers'. People who do not want to read shitty headlines should not play patsy cake with Lively and McClurkin and all of that. The language used by clerics against us is so extreme that there is no comparison to this hair splitting. They say all of us are horrid criminals worthy of death.
We know it is not all of them. But do the bad ones know that the rest are not on their side? That is what concerns me, not that some DUer might think poorly of Christians, but that the hate groups who identify as Christian might assume others who take that title agree with them and support their cause. That does not seem to concern the True Scotsman Brigade, and I think that it should.

[Heidi]

36. Those are Christian extremist groups, just as there are Muslim extremist groups.

I agree from an analytical point of view that so-called mainstream Christianity absolutely must distance itself from extremists if it wants to influence how the mainstream describes the actions of even the most extreme who identify as Christians. My point is about accuracy, not about what anyone thinks of Christians in general. My 30 years as a journalist demands accuracy, whether it's a headline about Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, conservatives, progressives, Mac, PC or Linux users.

[walldude]

103. I'm sorry but "Mainstream Christianity" is extreme.

The day after 9/11 Jerry Falwell, one of the most popular and well known "Mainstream Christians" went on TV and blamed gays for the attack. Gays are regularly maligned at Christian churches and by Christian Politicians.

Christian anti-gay rhetoric is as mainstream as it gets. It's in their freaking book of rules. To sit here and claim that it's only the "extremists" is disingenuous to say the least. It's more likely that Christians who accept gays are the ones who should be considered "extremists".

[Goblinmonger]

52. Not if it was done because of his gay beliefs.

I know, that makes no sense, but these people burned down the house because of their Christian beliefs. It's an accurate headline.

[Heidi]

73. Do you know any Christians? I live in a country where many people claim a "faith" but are in reality

agnostic or (as I am) atheist. Yet, the US is the only developed nation where I hear of "Christians" resorting to such hateful acts so regularly. It sure doesn't happen in Switzerland, and I would invite you to show me the regularity with which it happens so regularly in Italy (the next closest deeply religious nation to where I live).

It's about xenophobia, hatred, extremism, fundamentalism and WILLFUL IGNORANCE, which happen in all religions.

[Heidi]

75. What are "gay beliefs"?

I'm thinking that headline writing might not be your strong suit.

They burned down the house in an attempt to force a gay man into fear, hiding and, possibly according to their horseshit "beliefs" confession/redemption. How's that any different than the way other extremist, fundamentalist religious faction control by fear? I don't think it's special just because the extremists put their "Christian" stamp on it, but I'm an atheist and it's up to Christians to control their rand image. But it's up to headline writers to be as accurate as they possibly can be -- and accuracy trumps character count, in any media where character counts.

[Goblinmonger]

88. I said it wasn't possible.

But you get my point. They did what they did because of their particular Christian beliefs. It is important to their motives. That is why it was included.

[polmaven]

76. They burned down the house

because of their hatred. Hate is not a Christian belief.

[Goblinmonger]

87. Gays are an abomination

is a Christian belief.

[polmaven]

92. No - it isn't..

That may be a belief of SOME Christians. It is not the belief of THIS Christian, or any of the people in my congregation, or of the majority of the Christians I know. Yes - there are some who believe that, but I have not found it anywhere in the Christian Bible (aka the New Testament). My own area Bishop has spoken against that type of thought.

[Goblinmonger]

101. So the old testament has no impact on Christians?

That's an interesting take. Opens up a whole lot of questions.

[polmaven]

116. The New Testament

is the main focus for Christians. Your question intimated that Christians can ignore the New Testament, and simply "go by" the Old Testament. No - we can't. Jesus, in several places in the New Testament, refers to the Old Testament as well, but did denounce the hate that is found there. Jesus tried to explain that hate is NEVER acceptable.

[Goblinmonger]

127. This Jesus?

"But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.”

Yeah, sure, it's a "parable" but it is pretty clear that even the parable indicates that the non-believers will be punished by God severely.

[polmaven]

131. If you read the entire story..

you will see that Jesus was being what we now call facetious. He was turning the words he had heard from people back at them. he then turned and left the area.

[justiceischeap]

102. Shrimp, crab, lobster, clams, mussels, all these are an abomination before the Lord

Just saying...

[Bluebear]

135. Tell these kooks to go bomb Red Lobster!

:)

[slackmaster]

23. I gave up on Christianity almost 40 years ago, but this piece is bigoted and inflammatory

It was an act of a terrorist (or perhaps a terrorist group), not a Christian group.

Proud to Unrec.

[LynneSin]

137. Christians have acted in ways of Terrorism since well before the Crusades

They call themselves Christians but seriously they are more like followers of Paul.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

37. Horrible.

:-(

These assholes need to be prosecuted to the full extant of the law including being charged with a hate crime.

[Heidi]

38. Agree. "Assholes" is a much more accurate term than "Christians."

I don't know of a single Christian (or Muslim, or Jew, or whatever) who commit such a hateful act, but I think we all know there are plenty of assholes (bigots, extremists, fundamentalists, etc.) who could and would in their xenophobia kill someone they considered "other" without as much as blinking.

[Goblinmonger]

53. Yes, because no Christian every does anything bad.

How convenient.

Have you kicked the pope out of the Christian club?

[Heidi]

66. I'm an atheist.

I have no authority to kick anyone out of anything. The kicking out falls on the shoulders of those larger groups who tolerate terrorism in the names of their so-called "god" or faith.

Please don't toss your unoriginal Church Lady "How convenient" horseshit my direction. It only shows how influenced YOU are by all things fundamentalist Christian, including satire of the fundamentalist bunk.

[DearAbby]

39. I Didn't write the article

But the author of this article and those being targeted are deeply afraid, they are being targeted by the Christian Taliban. These people use their faith for the purpose of spreading this hate, all in the name of their GOD. This is a very real fear. The title and tone of the article clearly shows this fear.

It is easy to overlook this and pretend persecution, than address what really needs to happen here.

[closeupready]

54. Right, which is exactly what happened here, begining with the very first response.

Who cares that a gay man is homeless because he was targeted for execution on account of his sexuality - someone here is (allegedly) painting ALL Christians with hatred, and that's the real story. :eyes:

[DearAbby]

69. Ding Ding Ding

[krabigirl]

41. ...this is horrible.

[truth2power]

60. What in the world is going on, on this thread and on DU generally these days?...

Such undeserved acrimony! Yikes! So many are carrying around huge chips on their shoulders.

First of all, you did not author the article in the OP. If some DUers want to blame the author they should go to the blog and post in the comments section.

I used to be an Episcopalian. I still love the Episcopal Church, even though I don't identify myself as a Christian in the normal sense of the word. Think John Shelby Spong, for the Episcopalians, here (they'll understand). I identify with the liturgical year, the ritual, the color and the music. But I digress.....

The point being that I can't imagine any Episcopalians, for example, who would engage in such shameful activity as is described in the OP article. I would think that some Christians on this board could get off their high-horse long enough to realize that anyone who engages in such activity cannot realistically be termed "Christian". Perhaps the word "Christian" in the title should have been placed in quotes, but the blame lies elsewhere, with whomever made the editorial decision.

DUers are an intelligent lot, for the most part, who should know that, and not get exercised over it.

edit> typo

[justiceischeap]

62. For the Christians in this thread taking offense

How does it feel to be painted by a broad brush that doesn't really represent you? It sucks, doesn't it? Kinda like it sucks for gays to be blamed for a multitude of things that go wrong in the world. Hurricane Katrina, it was because of the gays. 9/11, it was the gays fault. Coal mine disaster in WV, the gays fault. Someone's kid gets molested, it's the gays. Dems lose an election, it's the gays fault for wanting equal rights. And so it goes.

The vocal few of your little Christian club has pretty much ruined Christianity for a lot of people who may otherwise bask in the glow of the Lord but defensive attitudes and arguing about your religion instead of talking about how unfair it was for this gay man to be targeted stinks of Palin and her crew shouting, "It's not our fault Loughner shot and killed those people," when they should have been offering condolences instead.

As a lesbian, it's the above attitudes that turned me away from all religion.

[Democrats_win]

64. It might be a good idea to put "christian" in quotes.

Then folks can think it doesn't apply to them because most Christians obviously don't approve of this "christian's" actions. This guy and people like him are "christian" in name only (nominal). I don't even capitalize it.

[justiceischeap]

67. In my experience I've not seen a hell of a lot of difference between

Christians and "christians." That said, maybe we need a different name for Christians, since "christians" seem to have taken over the religion.

[Warren DeMontague]

99. Or, it might be a good idea to worry about the actual victim here, i.e. the gay man

instead of clutching pearls over the poor, persecuted, put-upon and eternally abused status of the "Christian" majority in this country.

[kurtzapril4]

120. +1 brazillion n/t

[Bluebear]

133. As soon as people say "muslims" were reponsible for terror, deal? :)

[walldude]

80. I'd rec this if I could...

As soon as the shoe is on the other foot it becomes "unfair".

Fuck that. Christians need to either denounce their religion or start taking responsibility for what is written in their "Bible".

They put a book out there and demand people follow the "rules" in it and then when someone uses those "rules" to justify hurting other people, they attempt to distance themselves from the event.

Funny, it reminds me of this crazy woman from Alaska...

[superduperfarleft]

83. I find it sad that half this thread is people whining about terminology

as opposed to outrage that a group of Christian terrorists firebombed this guy's house.

I guess people tend to get defensive when it's their particular cult getting called out.

[polmaven]

84. And the vast majority

of Christian leaders spoke out against those types of accusations. The MSM, however, pays no attention, because their words are not controversial enough to grab headlines. That "vocal few" you mention are in no way part of MY "little Christian club".

The difference between our protesting the broad brushing of Christians, and Sarah's whining is that Sarah and the others on whom some responsibility was placed actually advocated violence. I am in 100% agreement that the a**holes who did this should pay to the fullest extent of the law. I am appalled at this outright hate, and, if I was in the area in which it happened, I would be there helping with the local church who have offered to help rebuild. This type of outright bigotry is not acceptable in any way in this country!

I do not want to be in any way linked with these outright bigots!

[justiceischeap]

91. The problem is, there are so many people of faith who denounce these kinds of acts

But where are they when CNN posts "Homosexuality is a sin" headline? These types of things that happen in the media, the "non-violent" stories that get published or reported, lead to the hatred towards gays by your looney few. I find it amazing that a group so accepting and so large actually ALLOW these few in the minority such a large, vocal stage. One has to surmise that the reason they are allowed to continue their hateful diatribe and continued gay bashing campaigns is because the leaders of the church agree with their stance but allow these few to speak for them so they don't outrage their parishioners. Inaction and apathy is just as bad as what these people who are stealing YOUR religion are doing.

You say if you were in the man's town, you would help them rebuild his house. What do you do in your community to help the gay community, other than exclaim that these crazy extremists don't represent you? When someone speaks badly of gays, do you denounce them? When someone makes a joke about gays, do you denounce that? Or do you sit quietly and allow these little, seemingly innocent jabs go by, thinking there's no harm?

If straight, Christians who believe that gays deserve equality really want to help the gay community, it helps to tell people that as a straight, Christian, you won't tolerate the hatred, the apathy, the jokes, the subtle speech that says we are somehow less whenever those opportunities are presented to you.

There are too many in YOUR religious community that claim they love their fellow man and then do nothing to prove it other than claiming your support.

I'm not slamming you directly polmaven, just pointing out what my experience with "accepting" Christians has been (and I've used "you" in general, not necessarily in particular).

edit > polmaven pointed out an error... thanks polmaven.

[polmaven]

112. My congregation

made a public statement more than 20 years ago that we are a congregation in which anyone is welcome, with no regard to your sexual orientation. We stated it is not expected that one must "hide" who you are, you will be one of our family, and will be loved as a brother or sister. There is actually a FB page regarding such "Reconciling Congregations". Such congregations are supported by our area Bishop.

We do have committees which have actually spoken against acts of hate against homosexuals. I do not know of an individual in the congregation who would not speak out against it. We are currently working with other area congregations on measures to prevent school bullying, much of which is because of sexual orientation. We are a small congregation, but I know that is going on in most of the congregations in my area.

As I have stated, the problem is that the MSM simply ignores much of what we do or say, because it is not headline grabbing material. The hate gets the headlines, not the acts against it.

Oh, and just a BTW...I'm sure you understand I meant I would do what I am able to rebuild his house, not his church.

[justiceischeap]

115. Is a man's house not his church? ;)

Thanks for pointing that out.

It's good that your congregation is so supportive but we (the gay community) need many more like you. I agree, in the media, "if it bleeds, it leads" gets all the attention but there has to be someone within the Christian community who is vocal enough to send out a statement when something like this happens. They need to get on the cable news shows and say, "This is not tolerated in the Christian community." These same Christians need to counter-protest when Westboro Baptist pickets at funerals and elsewhere to offset the hate but too many don't do that and THAT is why all Christians are painted with the Theofascist broadbrush--and let me tell ya, it's not because they get news coverage that these attitudes toward the gay community are prevailing, it's because too many good Christians remain silent on the topic.

[polmaven]

121. Oh, yes...

There was a Westboro protest in the town in which I go to church. My congregation did counter protest there, too. Not with signs, mind you. That would have been doubly disrespectful to the soldier's family. We joined with others in town to block as much as we could from the sight of the family, and keep them as far away as possible.

[lib_wit_it]

169. Heart of the matter.

[walldude]

108. Really? The vast majority?

The vast majority of Christians go against the bible and support gay rights? If that's true you guys are doing a shitty job of showing it. Maybe you could get this "vast majority" to change the wording in the bible so it doesn't demand this:

"And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

If Christians want to not be linked with acts like this then they need to re-write the book their entire religion is based on. Otherwise, if you are a Christian get used to being lumped in with the extremists. Can't help it. I didn't write your rule book, and you guys don't seem to be in a big hurry to change it so...

[kurtzapril4]

119. But the book is rife with,

and advocates: murder, rape, revenge, smiting, torture(done by god himself!), incest, genocide, slavery......it's all in there, if one is a believer one has got to accept the bad with the good, and not be too surprised when a fellow traveler decides the follow the guidelines set forth in said book.

[polmaven]

128. and perhaps

to read it literally, that will be what some may claim is their "reasoning". But they also eat shellfish, I'll bet, and do other things Leviticus finds to be abominations. And Jesus told us, and showed us, in the New Testament, that those actions are most definitely NOT acceptable. All but the far right wingers understand that the Bible, and the Old Testament in particular, was written by human beings, with prejudices of their own, and has been translated over and over again into different languages, and should not be taken so literally.

[superduperfarleft]

85. Oh, and QFE:

but defensive attitudes and arguing about your religion instead of talking about how unfair it was for this gay man to be targeted stinks of Palin and her crew shouting, "It's not our fault Loughner shot and killed those people," when they should have been offering condolences instead.

How very "christian" of them...

[Lucian]

130. Don't try to have a rational discussion with someone who believes in the irrational.

It will lead to grief, for you, the rational.

[Capitalocracy]

63. Isolated incident.

Nothing to see here.

[walldude]

81. OUCH!

:toast: Nice shot.

[Arugula Latte]

82. More rightwing terrorism.

Absolutely disgusting.

[Warren DeMontague]

97. STOP ABUSING CHRISTIANS!!! STOP!!! STOP ABUSING CHRISTIANS!!!! STOP!!!!!

oh, yeah, and... bummer about the guy whose house got burned down, too




...

[walldude]

134. LMAO....

Dude... :toast:

[xchrom]

109. as a christian -- the headline is fine -- and also as a christian i have to accept

that there are people who 'profess' christ also behave in this horrendous manner.

i can't nor shouldn't separate the bad from the good in this case.

[peopleb4money]

171. Well, if some atheists ever burned something down over anti-religious sentiment...

would any on here be accepting of a similar title that targeted them?

[Lucian]

129. "Who Would Jesus Bomb"

Sound like the Christian religion's new motto.

Sickening and disgusting. Anyone who thinks Jesus would resort to violence should go back and reread the Bible.

Religion is like a disease, a cancer.

[Vickers]

152. Rec for pissing off Christians. n/t

[sarcasmo]

158. Homegrown religious terrorist are more scary.

[ChipperbackDemocrat]

160. Eye On The Ball.

The good Christian folk up here don't cotton to you gay folks. You know what used to done to our nigras dontcha? We bombed them folks, too.

Lets keep our eye on the ball people. Christian dominionism is no different than Al-Queda in my view. A man's home was bombed. That's the bottom line.

[slackmaster]

165. I think "Heterosexual Supremacists" would have been a better description than "Christians"

That accurately describes the reason they chose their target.

This reply will be my final comment on this story.

[upi402]

170. if true, they are sub-animal

and i really really hope there's a hell -STILL!

[Mariana]

172. Just terrifying. nt.