Oh give me a fucking break, american exceptionalism...

[nadinbrzezinski]

I know, I know until the empire goes down...

BLEH!!!!

[MadBadger]

1. LOL, i knew hmm talking up the country would drive people nuts

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. It is not that... just that we are an empire in decline

and like any empire in decline that language just rises to new levels of idiocy.

[MadBadger]

4. Well you cant expect him to say that we are an empire in decline now, can you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. I can expect him to stop the language though

he can't, the right would eat him alive... while journals of the right now have articles speaking of the decline since the writing is on the damn wall.

[Skittles]

22. YES

and then tell us what he intends to DO about it

[Joe the Revelator]

57. What would you like him to have said? If we are ( and for the record, I think you're paranoid about

this) an empire in decline, his job is to try to turn the decline around. You can't do that with doom and gloom.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. All empires fall

all of them. We have all the sings of one in steep decline... so sooner or later (pay attention to the debt ceiling ahem, debate) it will happen.

Turning it around would require policies they are not willing to do, like a manufacturing revival and protection of internal markets...

For the moment, all you hear is whistling past the graveyard. But when ANY president finally speaks of this... well it will be well past time.

[Joe the Revelator]

83. The 'falling' empire argument is the apocalyptic fervor if the left

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. I recommend that you check out

Foreign Affairs, first quarter last year. I also recommend you check out the CURRENT issue of Foreign Policy.

If you think that those two are lefty publications then you have a point.

Nah at this point it's entered into the realm of very serious discussion and not precisely where you think it is.

[pampango]

101. They do, but like fall of the British empire, it doesn't have to end in the collapse of

the home country or the end of its prosperity. The British' relatively successful transition away from empire was accompanied by an opening of markets not increased protection of them.

As the rest of the world prospers, hopefully, our empire will decline at least relatively, perhaps absolutely. The trick here, as with the British back in the day, is to manage the decline in a way that prevents it destroying the country and our prosperity.

[Ken Burch]

5. American exceptionalism ISN'T just innocent "talking up the country"

It means embracing every horrible thing we did to the rest of the world.

It CANNOT have a progressive meaning.

[MadBadger]

12. He sounded to me like he was talking up the country. But you can put your own definition on it.

[Cid_B]

36. Yes yes...

We should all just mope in the corner and cry about every nasty thing that has happened in the last 200+ years and flagellate ourselves at every given opportunity.

[Ken Burch]

38. No...not mope...be honest, and change what this country does.

You CAN'T do anything progressive while spouting the "we're the greatest country in history" shit. When you say that, you close your mind and make it impossible for yourself to change.

[Cid_B]

39. As a side note...

America is the greatest nation in history... Doesn't mean we are pure as the driven snow though...

[Ken Burch]

40. Insisting on calling ourselves "the greatest nation" is pompous and arrogant

It should be enough to call ourselves a good country, one that is flawed, but will acknowledge our mistakes and try to avoid repeating them.

Not everything has to be a competition.

[Fire1]

53. Pompous, arrogant and above all, FALSE! n/t

[Cid_B]

56. Im interested in your top five then...

... if you don't mind...

[MilesColtrane]

93. How about...?

1) Disneyland
2) Atlantis
3) The Garden of Eden
4) Shangri La
5) Sweden

[Cid_B]

98. So you've got nothing...

... got it...

[MilesColtrane]

99. Yeah, that's the point I was making.

Notice that the list is heavy on utopian ideals, with only one real country.

The United States can only be considered one of the worst in human history if it is compared to an ideal fantasy.

We're on the same page, dude.

[Cid_B]

100. My bad...

Sometimes I respond before looking at the poster...

[defendandprotect]

65. Especially when we are a murderous US imperialist nation -- and always have been ...!!

United Nations describes US as a "terrorist nation" -- !!

Can't disagree but sure was hoping that Obama was going to put a stop to it!!

[kath]

41. greatest in terms of WHAT, exactly?

certainly not in infant mortality or any other health measure, the death penalty, crime, worker protections, income inequality, percent of the population incarcerated, poverty...

[Cid_B]

46. Wow...

I guessed anything along the lines of "America is good" would get some heads exploding and here we are...

[Ken Burch]

49. It's enough to believe the American people are good

We don't have to believe what this country's government has done, especially in international relations, is good. Our foreign policy has been just as cynical, self-interested and reactionary as that of the worst 19th Century European empires.

There's nothing we've done in foreign policy since 1945 that's been good, and most of it has been secret from the public, and most of it has been a betrayal of the values of the American people.

There's no way to use phrases like "America is good" for progressive purposes. JFK pretended he could do that...the result was Vietnam. Now, the same mindset has us in Afghanistan. Don't you GET it, yet? We can't BE the cops of the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. So was Rome, so was Spain, so was England

so was the Netherlands, so was China (middle Kingdom)... it is part of the Imperial Credo. This too shall pass once the Empire finally goes the way of the dodo... this is a kind of law of history... empires rise... and empires fall. In the last years empires get very strident about that talk.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

95. Sorry, but that is just bullshit.

There are mentally ill people laying in their own waste on my streets. There are people living in vans on my streets. There are seniors who are living on the bubble of poverty. There are people who need medical care but who cannot afford it, people who are going hungry, people who are falling further and further behind.

Such a country is NOT a "great" country.

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ZombieHorde]

23. All public speaking is an attempt to manipulate the public.

That is the point of public speaking.

[defendandprotect]

67. Some people actually made speeches to INSPIRE the public ...

[ZombieHorde]

91. Inspiration is a form of manipulation. nt

[defendandprotect]

92. Power is a form of manipulation, but it can be used for good as well as evil ...

same with what you're calling "manipulation" --

[NYC Liberal]

3. He should say, "America sucks, nothing will get ever better. Thank you and good night."

[Ken Burch]

11. No...he should say "America acknowledges we've done some horrible things

we aren't GOING to those things anymore. We aren't going to try to be an empire, we'll just try to be a good country that gets along with the world".

Why couldn't he say THAT?

There's no progressive way for us to "lead the world".

[BOG PERSON]

24. wouldn't that be an even bigger lie than saying "we're #1 forever"?

[Ken Burch]

48. Only if he said "doing this will be instant and easy"

Were he to add "I'll need the support of the people, at home and, if need be in the streets, to make it possible for me to break from the toxic approach this country has taken towards the rest of the world since 1945", he'd be giving a VERY honest answer to what would be needed to make such changes, and would re-engage the base.

[obxhead]

13. No, but painting a realistic picture could bring about that thing he

campaigned on.

Change

[NYC Liberal]

16. That's exactly what he's doing. nt

[obxhead]

45. To be honest I turned it off as soon as he started.

I see no point in watching it.

[defendandprotect]

68. +1 --

[Drunken Irishman]

6. Yes. He should get up there and say...

"Oh gosh. You know, I'm not much on speeches, but it's so gratifying to... leave you wallowing in the mess you've made. You're screwed, thank you, bye."

[NYC Liberal]

26. Personally, I could not go through life as angry and pessimistic

as some people here constantly are. Really.

[TomClash]

7. Wait now it's making America good for business nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. and while you read that in a speech

how many companies are building up China?

[TomClash]

One for each minute of the speech nt

[Maru Kitteh]

9. You think he should come out and say "Jeez we suck!" or what?

I don't get it.

[Zywiec]

17. It's the only thing that would make some here happy. n/t

[Ken Burch]

25. NO...he should say "we've done bad things, we admit it, and we'll STOP doing them"

He should say "we'll stop outsourcing and we'll stop trying to force other countries to drive their wages down"

And "we're getting out of Afghanistan because it can't be worth fighting for differences of degree between repressive regimes".

And he should say "I apologize to the young activists whose hopes we crushed so many times. We're going to work to bring you back in and regain your trust, and we're actually going to LISTEN to what you have to say".

What's wrong with saying those things?

[Maru Kitteh]

35. Meh. It wouldn't be enough, it would never be enough.

1. It's a SOTU, not a confessional booth.
2. It would never be enough to please the outliers.
3. Putting all his energy into pleasing the outliers would leave him so completely alone he might as well pack up and head back to Chicago and let Bo the dog wear the presidential boxers or briefs.

[Ken Burch]

43. You can't know that for sure.

This is a country that loves to respond to a challenge. We can make the challenge now to stop doing all the things that make the rest of the world resent us. This wouldn't require us to give up doing anything we absolutely HAVE to do.

[TheKentuckian]

29. Refusing to accept present conditions and their causes means we fix little at best.

Pretending the fundamentals are good is a first magnitude snow job and kinda insane since clearly our systems and institutions are largely busted the fuck up.

If you are committed to this bullshit economy you are full of it and have few good intentions for the majority of people.

[Ken Burch]

44. You guys make it sound like the ONLY options are "WE RAWWK!" or "WE SUCK!"

"We're going to tell ourselves the truth and grow ad a nation and a people by telling it" is ALSO an option.

We don't have to settle for just making the existing ugliness slightly less ugly(if it's not too much trouble).

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. And sooner or later A President will have to tell this

to the American People, even if this is not politically palatable. Perhaps THIS POTUS next year. Watch the debt ceiling ahem, argument... it could land us there, and this is something the intellectuals in the right (and the left) know is near. The Right will try to make sure this happens when a dem has the watch.

[villager]

10. "Change" didn't mean actually speaking truthfully about anything. It meant recycling the same myths

...in a barely/slightly different way...

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. They will continue to do that until after the fall

it is the nature of empires.

[msanthrope]

14. Didn't you promise to go follow FOK tonight? (I kid, I kid....) n/t

[Canuckistanian]

20. American exceptionalism....

... Chinese jobs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Best answer YET.

some folks here should go BUY the current issue of Foreign Policy... a neocon refuge.

[peopleb4money]

71. ditto

[MellowDem]

He's kept it to facts...

so I guess if you have a problem with that, then whatevs. We still are the biggest economy. We do have the best universities overall.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. No, we no longer have the best universities

and R&D has been progressively moving EAST for a decade now. Oh wait, I will stop them pesky facts.

[MellowDem]

32. Sorry to dissappoint you....

http://www.webometrics.info/graphics.html

Hell, it's no secret that as other countries become richer, they will improve. I don't see that as a bad thing overall, but America will have more competition than before, but if the whole world is becoming better off, it's a good thing. I don't want the US to be the best because everyone else is so bad off, I want us all to be well off. It makes for a more stable world, a more just world, and hopefully leads to a more sustainable world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. HUZZAH for globalization

but sorry to disappoint you, we are NOW number eight in OECD economies, NOT number one. And most R&D of importance is no longer done here. I prefer to live in reality.

[MellowDem]

34. Link?

Globaliztion is simply the result of having a more interconnected world. It is reality. Unless you want to stop China and Europe and India and Africa and so on from producing things and live in a bubble.

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. You can start at the OECD site

you can follow with the CIA fact book.

As I said, I prefer living in reality... mercantilistic relationships are never good for the client state. Guess who we are?

[Recursion]

72. That's why American grad students are flooding to Chinese and Indian universities?

Oh, wait, I have that backwards, don't I?

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Actually some are

but foreign students are NOT flooding to the US as much as they used to, and many are flocking to China and India.

Oh well...

Myth is strong and people will not realize how broken it is until it is too late.

[Recursion]

77. When I did my Masters in EE ('07-'10) half of my classmates were foreign students

Is that unusual now?

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. people are not flocking as much as they used to

that is a fact.

That's ok... as I said, it will not dawn on average americans until it is too late... like it did not dawn on Thucydides's contemporaries either.

Our form of government does not enter into rivalry with the institutions of others. Our government does not copy our neighbors', but is an example to them. It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few. But while there exists equal justice to all and alike in their private disputes, the claim of excellence is also recognized; and when a citizen is in any way distinguished, he is preferred to the public service, not as a matter of privilege, but as the reward of merit. Neither is poverty an obstacle, but a man may benefit his country whatever the obscurity of his condition. There is no exclusiveness in our public life, and in our private business we are not suspicious of one another, nor angry with our neighbor if he does what he likes; we do not put on sour looks at him which, though harmless, are not pleasant. While we are thus unconstrained in our private business, a spirit of reverence pervades our public acts; we are prevented from doing wrong by respect for the authorities and for the laws, having a particular regard to those which are ordained for the protection of the injured as well as those unwritten laws which bring upon the transgressor of them the reprobation of the general sentiment.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/PERICLES.HTM

There are many reasons why we are on the downward spiral... and yes, IT COULD be changed still, but there is NO political will to do what is needed.

[Recursion]

81. I wonder if we could re-do the Melian dialog...

...with Iraq and the US in '03...

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. that is the overt point for the downward slope

globalization and deindustrialization are quite brutally honest more of a cause... but that will be the mark for historians.

I do not see anybody asking what the hell is wrong with globalization, insofar as the american worker is concerned.

What is happening now across the arab world (ok two countries but will expand) and in Europe (so far five) will come to the US... those revolts will come. Keep your eye on the debt ceiling though... plenty of hints the RNC is about to pull the pin on that grenade... and that will make it very sudden... like all empires, it is economic and military over extension.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. From Keith

KeithOlbermann Keith Olbermann
Irony alert: "this is our Sputnik moment" "we'll fund the Apollo Projects of our time" while NASA and Space sink slowly into the past #SOTU

Quite true

[MadBadger]

30. Hes talking about us slipping in infrastructure and technology.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. we have SLIPPED, not slipping

but he cannot say that either. That said we need to invest in it like yesterday

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Rachel prayer of the free market

somewhere in England Adam Smith IS turning.

[inna]

51. thank you, Nadine. exceptionalism is a truly poisonous meme. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. It will pass... but it is the passing that we should

truly fear.

[killbotfactory]

54. He should just say: "America... meh, whatayagonnado?" nt

[L0oniX]

55. Exceptionally stupid!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

58. Yes, we should constantly deride the country we live in.

:eyes:

[Ken Burch]

70. No,but we should be honest about what this country is

Only if we always speak the truth can we break the patterns of the past.

It's never helpful to say shit like "we're the greatest country in the world".

[upi402]

59. glad i'm not the only one who winced at that

sounds like a BushCo speechwriter never got cleared out of the WH

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. Nah that theme has been around for over 50 years

actually goes all the way back to the 1900s, after the War with Cuba.

[white_wolf]

60. People may not want to hear

that we are not the best in the world, but we aren't and our elected officials and members of the media have a duty to the people of this country to tell them the hard truth even if it is unpopular. We are not the best. We are not the most free country in the world anymore, we may have been in the 1800's but we aren't now. We also do not have the highest standard of living and to say we do is ignorant at best and deceitful at worst. We in fact have a rather low one when compared to the Social Democracies of Europe. Ad FDR said "Necessitates men are not free men."

[Rex]

61. We did at one time rule the world, how quickly we forget why

we don't anymore.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. this applies tonight

Our form of government does not enter into rivalry with the institutions of others. Our government does not copy our neighbors', but is an example to them. It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few. But while there exists equal justice to all and alike in their private disputes, the claim of excellence is also recognized; and when a citizen is in any way distinguished, he is preferred to the public service, not as a matter of privilege, but as the reward of merit. Neither is poverty an obstacle, but a man may benefit his country whatever the obscurity of his condition. There is no exclusiveness in our public life, and in our private business we are not suspicious of one another, nor angry with our neighbor if he does what he likes; we do not put on sour looks at him which, though harmless, are not pleasant. While we are thus unconstrained in our private business, a spirit of reverence pervades our public acts; we are prevented from doing wrong by respect for the authorities and for the laws, having a particular regard to those which are ordained for the protection of the injured as well as those unwritten laws which bring upon the transgressor of them the reprobation of the general sentiment.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/PERICLES.HTM

[Kaleva]

63. Nations devastated by WWII have recovered.

[Odin2005]

64. After Carter got blasted do you think ANY president would do otherwise?

The Sheeple don't like their sacred cows gored.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. sooner, rather than later, a president will have to

after the fact.

[peopleb4money]

73. The truth is Americans don't like honesty. They like being bullshited to.

[PufPuf23]

74. American exceptional-ism and ingenuity and moral grounding

are enough to turn the Nation and World to more sound trajectory.

The will and leadership are not there and may never be, because most are in denial or self-delusion or outright lying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Thucydides applies tonight

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/PERICLES.HTM

Our form of government does not enter into rivalry with the institutions of others. Our government does not copy our neighbors', but is an example to them. It is true that we are called a democracy, for the administration is in the hands of the many and not of the few. But while there exists equal justice to all and alike in their private disputes, the claim of excellence is also recognized; and when a citizen is in any way distinguished, he is preferred to the public service, not as a matter of privilege, but as the reward of merit. Neither is poverty an obstacle, but a man may benefit his country whatever the obscurity of his condition. There is no exclusiveness in our public life, and in our private business we are not suspicious of one another, nor angry with our neighbor if he does what he likes; we do not put on sour looks at him which, though harmless, are not pleasant. While we are thus unconstrained in our private business, a spirit of reverence pervades our public acts; we are prevented from doing wrong by respect for the authorities and for the laws, having a particular regard to those which are ordained for the protection of the injured as well as those unwritten laws which bring upon the transgressor of them the reprobation of the general sentiment.

---------

Aren't those amazing historic echoes?

[madinmaryland]

75. Not another tweet. un-reccing.

:ugh:

[Forkboy]

85. Shame. The overall message is one worth reccing, not the other way around.

Fuckin' lazy ass Cowboys fan. :P

[madinmaryland]

87. Thanks for video taping my comment, Tonya, Belicheck!

:D

BTW, joey is ok.

[Forkboy]

90. If I had been recording you'd be facing a two month suspension!

:)

[totodeinhere]

84. People thought that American exceptionalism was dead when the great depression hit in 1929.

But we came back from that. So why can't we do it again? If we could just adopt some good strong progressive principles and shit can the Tea Party folks once and for all, I think we can still have good days ahead.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. To do that we need to adopt policies that they are not adopting

like you know... protection of our markets, and encouragement of industrial production. The country has been deindustrialized over the last 30 years. Just the last ten 45k FACTORIES have closed...

We also need to stop the attack on the middle class and unions.

That is not happening either.

Oh and in 1929 the US was not an empire... with over half of all accounts tied to the DoD... wait there was no DOD either.

Nor did we produce mission critical components for the war machine in China.

[Volaris]

89. I always thought that American exceptional ism

was about, FIRSTLY, adherence to the Rule of Law. <<I get that some of our laws are poorly thought out, and many people don't follow them (I.E. Marijuana codes), but even if you think weed should be legal, most of us still accept that UNTIL is, it is NOT, and if we get caught, we get a lawyer, go to court, and pay the fine.>>
As long as Govt. officials in America act like Govt. Officials in third-world dictatorships (and torture people, Etc.) and are NOT PROSECUTED, there is nothing to separate us from the peoples of the world who allow to be practiced anarchy or me-me-me as the guiding principle of organized government.

[ensho]

94. we are exceptionally good at killing and destroying

our military and black ops does it best

[robcon]

96. America is an exceptional country.

Leader in economics, justice and liberty.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. Yep, that is why so many Americans are behind bars

Read .the Funeral Oration I posted. It could have been written today... Then ask yourself where is Athens and the Athenian Empire?