Letter to Jon Stewart from an Occasional Speeder

[Pamela Troy]

From The Daily Show, 1/27/11:

So my point was, contrary to your colleague Ms. Kelly, was to suggest that Fox commentators do use Nazis analogies, and your point seemed to be, 'Yeah but I had a good reason.'

The problem with that is, everybody thinks they have a good reason. Steve Cohen thought he had a good reason. It’s like speeding. I yelled at Steve Cohen for speeding. Kelly yelled at Steve Cohen for speeding and then said, ‘good thing we don’t speed.’ And I said, ‘look at all those f*cking people speeding right there.’ And you said ‘You took that out of context. I was late.’

Dear Jon Stewart,

I hope everyone is enjoying their popcorn as they watch you and Bill O’Reilly go at it. For the most part, I’m on your side. Unlike O’Reilly, you do seem to have some grasp of what terms like “context” and “logical consistency” mean.

But, in the midst of all the cheering, pompom waving and soft-drink throwing, can I make a very serious suggestion? Uttered in a low voice and rather quickly before I duck under my desk as iced Cokes are thrown at me and people yell about Godwin’s Law?

How about…

How about we discuss whether or not individual Nazi comparisons are warranted instead of putting a blanket ban on them?

And no, I’m not talking here about confining Nazi comparisons to people who murder several million at a time. The problem with that criterion is that it would preclude us calling people like Ernst Rohm, Heinrich Himmler, or even Adolph Hitler “Nazis” before 1941, when the first extermination camp opened in Chelmno. It renders the Niemoller statement, which was aimed not at genocide but at the attitudes that enable genocide, meaningless – unless we’re planning to rewrite it. “First they came for no less than several million Communists…”

As much as it kills me to admit it, O’Reilly has a point. There is sometimes, a good reason for speeding, though it's not merely "I was late." "My wife is in labor" is a good reason, as is "my kid is bleeding profusely in the back seat" or "the highway behind me is collapsing." I’m not saying that O’Reilly’s excuse was either germane (as you’ve observed, it wasn’t) or warranted. I’m saying that simply dismissing any Nazi comparison with a wave of one’s hand is as mindless as comparing someone to a Nazi merely because you disagree with hem.

The current media fashion is to denounce glib Nazi comparisons in terms that are almost as glib as the comparisons. One argument being offered lately has been that there are plenty of other genocidal regimes to trot out as examples. Stalin and Pol Pot are the most frequent names invoked.

But here’s the problem – Both of those regimes came into power through violent revolution and war. Nazi Germany is a powerful object lesson precisely because it’s an example of a cultured and educated people throwing away freedom with their own hands. Hitler did not come into power through the Beer Hall Putsch. He came into power because the doors of power were willingly and legally opened to him.

That makes it worth discussing. The “lesson” of the Third Reich is far more complex than the obvious statement “Genocide is bad.” The “lesson,” lies in the question “how did an entire people, citizens of a 20th century western, industrialized nation, come to countenance gross repression and brutality?”

One does not arrive at the answer by fast forwarding to 1941 and focusing on the piles of bodies, the barbed wire, and the gas chambers.

I realize, of course, that actually examining the merits of individual Nazi comparisons would involve a greater level of effort than most cable news and comedy commentators are willing to put in. It would require coming up with hard facts about history and current events, drawing parallels, using logic, assuming a certain level of literacy among your viewers.

That’s a big part of what would make it worthwhile.

Crossposted from http://torchwood-us.com/">Thoughtcrimes

[EOTE]

1. Awesome.

Godwin's Law has become a joke and is certainly not applicable today. It's not only stupid, but downright dangerous to suggest that no one living in today's world can be as evil or have the potential to cause as much death and destruction as the Nazis. Sometimes one needs to call a spade a spade.

[truedelphi]

2. Thank you both for writing this letter, and also

For posting it here.

[melman]

3. That segment last night was incredibly funny

I lol'd and lol'd.

[Buzz Clik]

4. At this point, comparing someone to a Nazi is a meaningless cliche.

It has no impact at all.

How about coming up with a new comparison. You know, one that requires actual thought?

[Fumesucker]

5. You know of an equally odious regime that came to power democratically?

In a western, industrialized nation?

[Buzz Clik]

7. So that's it? We call someone a Nazi or we're without recourse?

Let me ask you this -- have you been called a commie by a knuckledragger on the right? Does it have any impact on you at all?

Calling me a communist or (heaven forbid!) a socialist is laughable, but the rightwing idiot who is delivering the "insult" thinks he's a friggin' genius.

[Fumesucker]

8. I was just continuing the point made in the OP..

That the Nazi regime had some unique characteristics that make it particularly apt as an analogy for what appears to be happening in the USA.

I guess I could mention how Torquemada drove that lovely fé auto but most Americans wouldn't get the historical reference.

Torquemada, isn't that part of my transmission? /teabagger

[Pamela Troy]

10. So show your knowledge of communism

by showing him how the comparison is invalid.

[lame54]

22. Someone will just right a DU OP defending his right to call you that

[Pamela Troy]

31. So what?

It's a discussion board. People discuss. That bothers you?

[lame54]

35. no

[Pamela Troy]

39. Then what's the problem?

[muriel_volestrangler]

Well, there's the French government that scapegoated Dreyfuss

Or there's the McCarthy era, during which many democratically elected American politicians claimed there was a communist plot to destroy the USA from within. With racists like Strom Thurmond around at the same time. That seems about equally odious to the Republican leadership today.

[JDPriestly]

17. It was equally odious. You forgot to mention the blacklisting of

script writers and others during the McCarthy era. That was a disgraceful period in our country.

[Pamela Troy]

9. I have thought about the comparisons I've made.

See, I actually know a bit about how the Nazis came into power. How they inured the German people to brutality and repression. And the people who survived the Third Reich were pretty emphatic about the lessons derived from this NEVER BEING FORGOTTEN.

So no. I won't forget. And I won't stop pointing out the similarities when they occur.

Do you really think shutting your eyes and clapping your hands over your ears involves "thought?"

[liberation]

11. Just because you have "thought" about it, it does not necessarily mean you were correct

Using "socialist" as an insult in the US is mainly a reflection of the ignorance of our population, rather than the "evil" nature of socialism. In fact, in large portions of the world calling someone a "socialist" is not an insult but actual a term of pride. E.g. a big chunk in the EU's parliament seats belong to the "socialists." There are far less people who take the word "nazi" as a term of endearment. I wonder why that is?

You trying to equate the term "nazi" with "socialist" as being somehow equivalent in their insulting nature, tells us more about you and where your "concern" lies. Than it does regarding wether or not the open discussion of similarities some current extreme-right view points have with former nazi policies is a valid one.

[Pamela Troy]

13. ????

L: Using "socialist" as an insult in the US is mainly a reflection of the ignorance of our population, rather than the "evil" nature of socialism. In fact, in large portions of the world calling someone a "socialist" is not an insult but actual a term of pride. E.g. a big chunk in the EU's parliament seats belong to the "socialists." There are far less people who take the word "nazi" as a term of endearment.

Yes.

And your point is...?


L: You trying to equate the term "nazi" with "socialist" as being somehow equivalent in their insulting nature...

Where in the name of the twelve apostles have I done such a thing?

[lame54]

23. now you're evoking the 12 apostles - have you no shame?

[JDPriestly]

15. If you think that comparing someone to a NAZI requires no thought,

then you know very little about Germany or the NAZI period. And you did not read the very thoughtful OP.

[lame54]

24. if you think watching the daily show requires no thought...

then you missed the point of the bit - just like the OP did

Bill claimed he was not a speeder but has a perfectly good excuse for why he was speeding

Jon called him out on it

[Pamela Troy]

30. The problem is that Jon's response

seemed to indicate that there is never, EVER any excuse for speeding.

[lame54]

33. and the OP argues there is...

but gives no examples

on the other hand Stewart will break a clip down and show why that particular clip is a bad comparison

yet the OP implies he is too lazy to do this

[Pamela Troy]

38. Yes, I do think Jon Stewart is "lazy" at times.

When a political movement uses "the big lie" -- that is the repetition of an outrageous lie until it's believed, that warrants a comparison with the Nazis.

When a government tortures -- that warrants a comparison to the Nazis.

When a political movement scapegoats one or more groups of people, invoking "stabs in the back," secret conspiracies, and an innate evilness and incompetence that warrants excluding or possibly even killing members of that group, that warrants a comparison to the Nazis.

Those are just a few.

Anything unclear about them?

[spinproof]

44. Thank you for saying this far more concisely than i've been able to so far!

Would you mind being quoted?

[Pamela Troy]

47. Thanks for the compliment!

And yes, you can quote me.

[JDPriestly]

50. I agree with you. When he equated MSNBC to Fox News, he lost

my respect. If he doesn't understand the difference it is because he has not analyzed what MSNBC and Fox say and how they say it.

Being able to turn every serious event into a joke is entertaining but may enable the jokester to gloss over important differences between two very different things.

[Buzz Clik]

26. I read the OP, and the author thought about it.

It doesn't change the fact that calling someone a Nazi is a meaningless cliche regardless of how close the comparison might be.

[Pamela Troy]

32. If the comparison is apt, the comparison is not meaningless.

Do you really think what happened during the Third Reich should be forgotten? Because that's essentially what you're advocating.

[Buzz Clik]

34. Yeah, that's what I said. We should forget the Third Reich.

Nice try. :eyes:

Have you -- personally -- ever been called a Nazi because of your actions?

[Pamela Troy]

36. Sure. And I've had no trouble taking the analogy apart.

If you're not claiming we should "forget the Third Reich" how are you advocating it be remembered? Should we varnish it so its all shiny and old looking and invoke it only for keen action historical dramas?

What do you think The Niemoller statement was about if not the need to observe and point out the parallels that exist BEFORE actual genocide.

[Buzz Clik]

51. This is stupid. You've gone from a ridiculous notion that it's okay to call opponents Nazis...

... to accusing me of wanting to forget history. I was correct in the first place.

[Pamela Troy]

57. You're misrepresenting what I said.

No, I did not make the blanket statement "it's okay to call opponents Nazis." I said that it's glib and wrong to simply dismiss ALL comparisons, even those that are valid.

Tell me something -- I'm genuinely curious about this -- what do you think is the meaning of the Niemoller statement? Do you really imagine Niemoller meant it to ONLY be applied to the Nazi regime? He didn't intend it to serve as a far broader warning?

[annabanana]

6. absolutely YES

If we stubbornly refuse to learn from the experience of the Nazi regime, we will surely open the doors to another disaster.

[hootinholler]

12. Do we need Nazi nazis?

Similar to the grammar nazi? Or the spelling nazi?

All kidding aside, the term has lost some of its shock value as has fascism. The terms that describe the organization of lefties have been demonized since, well the Nazis. Russia, the red menace, has Socialist in its name. Nevermind if they were actually socialist or whaat brand of socialist they were, socialism came to equal evil. Just as the term liberal was. Do you think JFK would have said anything about being a liberal if the term wasn't being redefined to mean evil?

Personally I want to redefine conservative and republican and righty to mean evil. This is the opportunity to do exactly that and our representation is either too polite or timid to take advantage and do it. We better get started because it takes time to saturate the population with the meme.

What is happening now is that Bill O'Falafel and company are now tying liberal (which is already evil in their viewer's mind) to Nazi. They have been doing this for a long time too and the beauty of it is that the people who watch them are low information types and internalize the message without beginning to consider the validity of the usage. The term Feminazi is a prime example. It also debases how evil people think conservatives are when they exhibit actual traits that led to the Third Reich when a liberal (evil implied) compares a conservative's behavior to early nazi behaviors, then we are evil name-callers.

All one need do is visit a tea party rally to see the net effect of this programmed cognitive dissonance. Those evil bastards operate very long term, mainly because they have the resources to do it.

-Hoot

[The Wizard]

14. Will the dancing Hitlers wait in the wings

We're only seeing the singing Hitlers now.

[alphafemale]

19. Like those Dancing Hamsters of the early internet days?

Actually.

That might be pretty funny.

And would probably piss off those Aryan P.O.S.

[JamesA1102]

16. Wow! You really missed his point.

He was specifically refuting Kelly's claim that they don't use Nazi analogies on FAUX News.

[lame54]

21. thank you

[Pamela Troy]

29. No, actually I did get that point, and I acknowledged it.

My point is, however, that Stewart and others who denounce Nazi comparisons often show as much glibness and shallowness as the people they denounce.

[OnyxCollie]

43. "[S]tudied objectivity is hypocrisy thinly disguised."

Wooddy, C. H. (1935). Education and propaganda. Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Sciences, 179, 227-239.

Those who cannot understand (or refuse to accept) COMPARISONS between propaganda TACTICS of the repubs and Nazis are as dishonest as those who dismiss COMPARISONS of POLICIES of Obama and bush.

Fucking hypocrites.

[JamesA1102]

52. That wasn't his point.

His point was to show that what Kelly said was not factually correct.

[Pamela Troy]

58. And if you read the OP, you'll see that I acknowledged that point.

In the course of making it, Stewart accepted as a given that ALL analogies and parallels drawn to the tactics of the Nazis are wrong -- a stance that's just as mindless as mindless comparisons.

[JamesA1102]

62. Yet you're still arguing a point he didn't make.

I believe that's called rationalization.

[Pamela Troy]

63. Actually he has made the point I'm taking issue with.

Repeatedly.

[Matt Shapiro]

18. Clear explanation of when and how to properly use Nazi/Fascist analogies.

Thank you!

[lame54]

20. it's not clear at all...

no examples given and it's not clear who he thinks is doing it correctly - the right or the left

he claims that it would take too much time for "a comedian" to break it down but Stewart has spent MUCH time doing just that

every example he gives and breaks down clearly shows how the comparison fails

to fight for the right to call people nazis is very strange

[Pamela Troy]

28. No, actually, Stewart DOESN'T explain

"how the comparison fails." The closest he's come is snarky oneliners about how "The Nazis worked really hard to be as evil as they are," and "Gitmo would be a paradise compared to Auschwitz."

You know what else would be a "paradise compared to Auschwitz?" the Warsaw Ghetto. So would being forced to wash a sidewalk while onlookers laughed, which is what happened in Vianna just after the Anschluss. In fact, as I've already pointed out, using Stewarts logic, the NAZIS can't be compared to Nazis before the extermination camps were built.

[lame54]

37. my last post...

i simply don't agree with you

have a great day

[Pamela Troy]

41. Yes, I know you don't agree.

You seem unable to go beyond that assertion.

[melman]

40. It's a comedy show

Seriously.

[Pamela Troy]

42. It's a comedy show that's taken quite seriously.

As it should be. Sorry but "just kidding" does not qualify as a free pass when it comes to debating serious issues.

[melman]

54. yeah

but it's still a comedy show. you should really let it just be funny.

[Pamela Troy]

59. If the point of the "joke" is a stupid and glib assumption

then I'm going to argue with it.

"Just kidding" is not a get out of jail free card when it comes to debate.

[Rabrrrrrr]

25. I agree - we still need to be able to at least say "Those are nazi-like tactics/strategy/rhetoric"

Because the nazis didn't just show up one day in power with the express purpose of exterminating Jews and starting a world war.

They spent many years preparing the public with their xenophobia, scapegoating rhetoric, and triumphalist nationalism.

And while I think much of the nazi namecalling is done out of ignorance of what they are and of what the person/people being called nazi are actually doing (esp. when the right uses it against the left), there has been some legitimate nazi-calling about specific behaviors, ideologies, and whatnot. Just because someone isn't calling for the genocide of the Jewish people doesn't mean they aren't using the tactics of the nazis or of Hitler.

[thesush]

45. I disagree

first of all, those "nazi-like tactics" aren't property of the term "nazi".
the tactics the nazis used had a long colorful history before nazis came around,
and im sure they will have an equally colorful history in the future.

i think people should make an effort to express their statements. don't call
someone a "nazi" or "like a nazi" just because it's expedient.
for example, instead of calling state propaganda "nazi tactics", why not just
make an effort and call is...state propaganda. instead of calling censorship
"nazi tactics", why not just call it censorship.

yes, those who use tactics similar to nazis could be called "nazi-like"...
and it wouldn't necessarily be wrong, but we all know that the real reason
people call one another nazis isn't to describe the other person's position
or tactics, but instead to attach to them the extra "baggage" and negative
image that is entailed in the term "nazi."

[Pamela Troy]

46. I'm not advocating calling someone a "Nazi."

And kindly don't tell me what my "real reason" is for drawing the comparison. When someone asks me (as people have) "What's the HARM in violent rhetoric? When has it ever hurt anyone," the obvious place to point is the Third Reich, and the rhetoric of Goebbels and Streicher.

People who survived the Third Reich came away from the experience very, VERY emphatic that it should never be forgotten.

Were they wrong?

[thesush]

48. I hardly think trivializing the term "nazi" honors those who survived under the real nazis

but, this is my opinion and that one is yours. i don't intend to argue about it.

[Pamela Troy]

49. I've known people who survived the holocaust.

They did not, in either their writings or their spoken comments, qualify valid comparisons as "trivializing" the holocaust.

What trivializes it is treating discussion of the issue as if it were a word game.

[Bluenorthwest]

56. I often point out in these discussions that great and Jewish minds

have seen fit to make huge mockery out of Hitler, Nazis, the works. I always wanted to see someone walk up to Mel Brooks and tell him 'Springtime for Hitler' trivializes the holocaust. Chaplin's The Great Dictator was made before we were in the war, comedy about the ghettos and about the Nazis.
Those who wish to keep that time unmentioned wish to make it, in a way, sacred. The artists of the world have not agreed with that from day one.
I personally was asked by a survivor to never shut up about it when I was a young man, and we stood at Yad Vasheim. That survivor knew me, knew the way I speak, and told me, never stop, ever.
Then along come internet kidz to explain it all away, with no standing, no work to point to and no proof of their desired methods.
Some look at Hitler and want to make 'Goodwin's Law' others look at Hilter and want to make 'The Producers'. I'm personally going with the Brooks version.

[Pamela Troy]

60. It's interesting to note that this "don't trivialize the holocaust"

seems to be a generational thing. Those people who remember that time, even those who were directly affected by the horrors of the Third Reich seem to be MORE -- not less -- inclined to draw parallels now denounced by many of those under 40 as "insulting" to Holocaust victims.

[Bette Noir]

27. I've had a problem with Stewart ever since he declared war on Olbermann, last summer.

Maybe he doesn't want his supply of right-wing guests to dry up.

[judesedit]

53. A very enlightening article. And the main question for me is....

..Is this happening in America right now? The U.S.A. certainly has become a very scary place. Are racism, sexism, and homophobia that ingrained in some people they will never see we are all equal? Do these "human beings" really think they are better than anyone else? What or who the hell ever gave them that idea????? They are mentally deficient in my view with extremely thick skulls that cannot be penetrated by the most patient, religious, and/or logical of people....but I hope many are still trying to enlighten them. I actually pray there are enough minorities in this country to be able to fend off this type of violent regime ever taking over. We must get rid of the easily manipulated electronic voting machines still in use and put much more strict regulations on automatic/semi-automatic weapons and ammunition sales. I don't even want to imagine Amerika run by the KKK, NRA and, I might add, nazi sympathizers. The idea makes my skin crawl.

[sulphurdunn]

55. I agree with the author of this post.

“Context” and “logical consistency” are indeed required to disenthrall oneself from mass media perception management. I'd recommend to her detractors that they read the following: "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer, "Mein Kampf" by Adolph Hitler and "The Origins of Totalitarianism" by Hannah Arendt, just for starters. Then, I would suggest they stop giving credence to the semi-literate pronouncements of folks likes Jon Stewart and Bill O'Reilly on the topic.

[Pamela Troy]

61. I'd add to that the diaries of Victor Klemperer

and Shirer's Berlin Diary.