On a wider perspective... let me familiarize you with 1848

[nadinbrzezinski]

it was a critical year in European history. It was the year that democratic revolutions, and demands for that started. No, when all was said and done the autocrats did not go away all over the place. Nor where they swept away. In fact. the streets of Paris ran with blood (from the Commune).

Yet, after the red banners were put away and the armies of Europe went back to the barracks things DID start to change. There was more democracy allowed, and of course one Karl Marx and another Friedrich Engels, started writing their lives work, that is Das Kapital.

Why is the 1848 year appropriate here? What we are seeing around the world, not just in Egypt or in Tunis, but also in Europe, South America and other places, are rumors of discontent. These rumors will grow to the point where nobody will be able to ignore them. A few cases (See Somalia and Egypt) you will see frank changes on who is in charge. But this is a reaction to Globalization. It is quite simple, the people around the world are fed up.

So get familiar with 1848... this is our modern equivalent and it is scaring the living daylights of the elites... the same way it did in 1848.

Oh and as far as the US is concerned... I expect the Kill Switch bill to be fast tracked... they KNOW this may be coming here too... I mean most Muricans are STILL NOT watching the rest of the world... but we may get ideas. And China already blocked access to any news of this, less the peasants get ideas again and try for Tianmamen again. Oh and to those who claim I am lambasting Americans, our people are insular, and ignorant, we are the damn frakcing exception.

[snappyturtle]

1. Thank you. K&R

I am quite worried about the Kill Switch bill.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. It is a done deal... they know

and they don't want bubba to get ideas. Sadly I am serious. The moment we start seeing anything serious here, that cannot be ignored... they will.

[snappyturtle]

6. Oh, I'm certain they will too. After all, it was amazingly easy during

the bush years to enact the Patriot Acts for instance. I am outraged by those acts as well as the loss of habeas corpus. John Nichols warned on a Bill Moyers program that unless we restored loss freedoms BEFORE the 2008 election we were doomed. He contended then and it has proven to be true that future presidents would never relinguish what bush put into place for the executive branch.

[jaxx]

3. Why would it come here when those countries want what we have?

People need to wake up and realize the USA is not the bad guy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. There are rumors of discontent in the US as well

due to deindustrialization, and lack of good paying jobs.

It is NOT as desperate here, as other places, but people are increasingly aware that there is serious trouble with the political system and corruption at the highest of levels.

Both are drivers for political discontent. It is globalization. The American elites know this.

[jaxx]

5. Well yeah, I read DU too.

Much of the trouble is due to people bringing their own issues into the arena. Yes, we need jobs. The political system is not good due to the Citizens United ruling, otherwise it's as it's been for 150 years, maybe longer.

This country went through the Depression without anarchy, there is no reason to think this big recession is going to stop on a dime. The corruption that is spoken of by those who wish for rebellion and rely on code words is enlarged to meet their needs.

No, we're not there and it's highly doubtful that we will ever be there. Don't discount this country, it's Constitution, and it's people.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. The US had quite of unrest during the Great Depression

I know they don't teach history in schools, but the New Deal was partly a reaction to that.







Now for some labor unrest









Just because you did not see generalized unrest does not mean it did not happen... and the whole moves of population due to the dust bowl is probably one of the reasons why.

On the dust bowl





We really need to learn our history and step away from the myth...

[jaxx]

11. No, they were not generalized.

Understanding that this is not a country due to fly apart at the distractions put up by those who wish for another world is very important.

I will ignore the implication that I'm a dunce.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. They were far more extensive than they teach in schools

those of us who actually look at primary sources know this, and do the history of labor. They don't teach it. It is not you... we just don't.

IT is time (high time actually) to step away from the mythology. We were not that exceptional then, and we are not now.

[jaxx]

14. History book are notoriously inadequate.

But other reading and hearing from people who lived then is a better source of info. We are quite exceptional in that this country is 235 years old, compared to others who are as old as time. We have come far in a short time, and there is no reason to think we are finished. This country is what other countries strive for, a republic democracy. No, we're not perfect...far from it. But to compare us to dictatorships and worse....I just don't see it. Can we improve? Absolutely. That is what we need to work towards, instead of the end.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. No we are not exceptional and we are about to learn

that in spades. We are just in love with mythology.

[jaxx]

16. You're welcome to your dreams.

Mine aren't yours.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. Reality is very different than what you see in the US

It helps not having an insular world view, and having the ability to see beyond the Imperial Mythology. All empires believe they are exceptional. All empires fall.

This is not about dreams...

In places in the US now there is this talk... like Foreign Affairs Magazine and Foreign Policy, as well as their lefty counterparts. As they say, and as usual, the chattering classes know this is coming. The people, as usual, will be the last to know. It is part of the necessary illusions.

[jaxx]

18. It's dreams.

Either of anarchy or of a peaceful country. If imperial mythology words work for you, that's not my problem. The lefty counterparts are my problem. They instigate those who are demanding instant gratification, fire them up for what? A revolution? To what good? This is not the ME. It's sad watching people follow the pied piper of the day.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Ok then history is a dream, have a good life

I give up... bye bye, enjoy the myth.

[coalition_unwilling]

8. Sorry to burst your little bubble, but all too often since 1945 the

USA has been and is the bad guy. What am I talking about? Well, let's start with southeast Asia: 2-3 million civilians dead prematurely from violence occasioned by U.S. military invasion and occupation post-1945. Next to the Middle East. Estimates range from a conservative 100,000 dead Iraqi civilians to as high as 1,000,000, as a result of U.S. military invasion and occupation. And all for lies (in both instances).

[dixiegrrrrl]

21. They want what we used to have, there is a difference.

Before 1980, most of the Bill of Rights was intact.
It has been increasingly eroded ever since.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Thanks and that is a good one,

welcome to DU

:hi:

[Odin2005]

12. K&R

[RainDog]

20. 1848 needs a little background info too

1789 - the beginning of the end of monarchies across Europe with the beginning of the French Revolution. iow, there were 60 years of instability and war and massive social change that created those revolutions in 1848.

France's revolution occurred b/c of financial crises - funding the American Revolution - by an educated population of aristocrats and an emerging "middle class" (lawyers, writers, educators) denied any say in their govt's actions.

First they tried to rule with Louis XVI as a figurehead - but the monarchies on the continent freaked out and declared war on France. Prussian armies crossed the border - and soon after, Louis and many aristocrats who sided with the monarchies lost their lives.

Napoleon led many military campaigns across Europe and came back to France to declare a military dictatorship in 1799 after 10 years of revolution and unsuccessful attempts to create a stable governing authority for France.

In 1804, Napoleon established his governing "code" for France and saw its adoption in most all the conquered lands in Europe - including Belgium, The Netherlands, states in "Italy," Poland, and all of the German Empire - in other words - those places that were part of the uprisings in 1848.

Napoleon put members of his family in positions of power in these places in order to enact the new law - they were not universally welcomed. But they changed the existing view of law, rights and privilege.

This code established meritocratic forms of advancement in society (rather than aristocratic privilege), educational standards for citizens, a uniform standard of weights and measures for trade, separation of church and state, and the reform of legal codes.

Napoleon, in fact, began the modernization of all the Europe and the downfall of all empires - including his own.

At this same time, with the defeat of the church's power - but, more importantly, with the belief in humankind's ability to understand the workings of the world w/o religious explanation - scientific research exploded across the continent.

Those who were part of the ruling classes were largely not part of this revolution - esp. in England. Those who began the industrial revolution were the same "class" that began the French Revolution - the educated who were not part of the aristocratic system - who did not have access to Cambridge or Oxford - those who did not pledge fealty to the state-approved church.

While the continent was absorbed in war, England began to change the way in which labor was performed across Europe over this new century. While England began to change the way labor was performed, advances in printing changed the level information that was made available to people across the continent.

This was another information revolution - like the invention of the printing press and the overthrow of the church's control of the spread of knowledge with the invention of movable type a few hundred years before.

In 1815, Napoleon was defeated in Russia - and sent into exile. The monarchy restored the position of King and fights continued between royalists, the absolute monarchists and republicans in France - the Bourbons lost the absolute monarchy fight and the royalists took control in 1830.

This is the govt that was in power leading up to the next phase of revolution - the beginning of labor strikes and the anarchist movements in the world - which started 15 years before the commune of 1848. Iow, that year of revolution did not spring fully formed from the head of... not Zeus.. more like the strong arms of Vulcan.

This govt. was indebted to financial investors for control - it was a monarchy, but not absolute - aristocrats did not have the levers of power - finance capitalists did.

Capitalists became, in effect, the "new" aristocracy.

This monarchy fell - but after the uprisings in 1848, Napoleon's nephew declared himself Emperor.

nevertheless, the course of modern history had begun with the first labor uprisings, the beginning of the end of feudalism (aristocratic land-holding/serf controlling wealth), and the beginning of a consciousness of the working people of the world sharing a common desire for human rights and reasonable working conditions and govts that had to take into account the will of the common person.

This moment in time was the beginning of socialism, as well, when a French printer, Proudhon, questioned the meaning of property - whether it be human or geographical.

and, oh yeah, those guys named Marx and Engel.

History is a constant struggle for the right to agency and power among all groups.