Three-year-old suspended from Arlington preschool for too many potty accidents

[The Straight Story]

Three-year-old suspended from Arlington preschool for too many potty accidents

Zoe Rosso, who is 3 years old, likes to bake brownies with her mom, go to tumbling class and make up elaborate worlds with tiny plastic animals and dolls. Like many children her age, she sometimes has difficulty making it to the toilet on time.

That's why she was suspended from her preschool. For a month.

Arlington Public Schools' Montessori preschool at Claremont Elementary "removed" Zoe in December, asking her parents not to bring her back to school for a month, or until the child learned not to have any more "accidents."

The principal escorted Zoe and her mother, Betsy Rosenblatt Rosso, from the building on Dec. 3. "The principal told me that Zoe had had enough chances," Rosso said. "That seemed absurd to me. It came as a total shock."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/29/AR2011012903854.html

[Ichingcarpenter]

1. I heard that the contract between the school and parents

says the child should not have more than 8 accidents a month

[trumad]

3. Accident...

That pisses me off--- Someone should tell the School that it's human nature and very normal for a kid that age.

[Ichingcarpenter]

7. The Bill Press Radio Show covered the story this morning

and they mentioned that fact. That's two accidents a week for
a pedagogue to clean up. Bathroom breaks are important at that age
and children need to be reminded. If the place is understaffed then
you know what will happen cause a kid needs an adult to accompany him or her.

[Pisces]

39. Yes it is, then you must find a daycare facility and not a preschool.

[trumad]

2. Three?

That's ridiculous...

Some kids simply take longer than others...

That's why pull-up's are made.

[Maine-ah]

4. wow

my daughter's preschool requires the kids to be potty trained before they can be enrolled. Accidents do happen though, and they understand that. My kiddo was potty trained just before her 2nd birthday, not many accidents after that, and I can't remember the last time she had one.

According to the article the general rule is 8 accidents a month before a school can ask a student to leave. I don't have a problem with that. What I think is horrible, is the teacher announcing it to the class and embarrassing the child when she did have an accident. That is not going to help things, and is most likely going to cause some major anxiety in the kid. WTF was that teacher thinking?

[dixiegrrrrl]

5. Pre-school used to be for 4 year olds.

For that reason.

Guess I am way behind the times.

[PassingFair]

35. Yep. When my kids were little it was required that the child be potty trained...

to move from "daycare" to "pre-school".

[Ilsa]

6. Having worked with these kids, there is another two possibilities:

1) the kid hates school and is trying to go home;
2) there is something else happening, maybe abuse, in the home.

These are two possibilities. I'm not saying it has to be either of these. But I think the first one is more likely.

[woo me with science]

9. Many three-year-olds slip back with toilet training.

It is completely unnecessary and unfair to the family to leap to abuse as a probability here when you know absolutely nothing about the situation.

[ejpoeta]

13. i agree. toilet training is a precarious thing. anything can cause a set back.

just the change in routine of going to school could cause a set back frankly.

[Ilsa]

46. I didnt say they were abusing her.

But under some circumstances, I'd have it on the table under consideration. I don't know if their situation warrants it or not. You're reading more into my post than what was intended. I hope that someone there at the school was able to rule it out.

See my post below for a further explanation.

[TBF]

11. That is insane and developmentally unsupported -

Kids take different amounts of time to train and have different personalities.

My daughter was trained by 3 and no accidents (nighttime took longer).
My son is 3 1/2 and pretty good during the day, but not at night. Still has some accidents during day, but sporadic.

I've talked to the pediatrician about it, she says not to put pressure on him - that he is getting there.

You assume that means abuse? I'd love to hear about your level of training before working with kids (my degree is in child development from a top 10 school, and I still defer to my pediatrician on these things).

[Ilsa]

47. You need to re-read my post.

I didnt say this was happening. I'm saying that under some circumstances, it could happen, and I would hope that the teachers and aides would look at the whole picture and the circumstances.

BTW, I'm a registered nurse, specializing in pediatrics, working with children in the school system, including pre-schoolers who sometimes have potty accidents. We also consider whether a child with frequent accidents, especially girls, could be sexually abused and in need of medical care. That's why school nurses might actually take vital signs on repeat cases, to look for signs of infection that may be related to something benign, or something happening to the child, such as sexual abuse.

And yes, I've seen it. I can recall one student in particular who was so sexually abused as a toddler that as a fourth grader she still gets frequent UTIs. Fortunately, she's been adopted by a loving family that makes certain that she gets both the medical and psychiatric help she needs.

I've been there and seen it, no matter what your professors in your top ten school said.

[TBF]

48. When so many are not trained at 3 why would you immediately leap to the

conclusion that it would be abuse? How frequent do you think cases of sexual abuse that result in those types of developmental difficulties crop up? Yes, it is in the realm of possibility but not a likely scenario - so why present it as such? Just bizarre.

[Ilsa]

50. I haven't leapt to any conclusions. I simply pointed out there might be other

Possibilities to investigate, and they aren't resolved in one day.

How many? How many need to suffer abuse before someone notices and does something about it? Maybe I've seen more of it than you, so yes, I'm more likely to ask questions. It may be "bizarre" in your perfect world.

[woo me with science]

8. Use of the word "suspended" here is unfortunate, because people will leap all over it

as punitive and an outrage.

Many preschools have ALWAYS had rules that children must be toilet trained before attending. Likely this little girl was signed up and her mom promised that she was, but she was not quite ready yet.

It is ridiculous to expect that a preschool teacher should have to deal with accidents from multiple students every day.

This little girl is probably right on the edge of being ready, so they made it a suspension instead of a withdrawal. It is too bad they used that word, because now people will be outraged for no reason.

Nowhere does it say that the preschool viewed this or treated it with the little girl as though it were a discipline problem.

[Maine-ah]

12. second page

" At pickup time, Zoe's teacher announced in front of everyone how many accidents the child had that day, Rosso said."

no, they didn't treat it as a discipline problem, but I think this teacher needs to be at the very least talked to about the way she/he handles the situation. Embarrassing a child in front of classmates and other parents is not the way to handle it.

[woo me with science]

16. Yeah, that should have been handled better. nt

[JVS]

18. I think there might be ambiguity there.

I'm reading it as whenever any kid was picked up the parent was told about any accidents, but that there weren't privacy measures taken. That would be different than singling this particular kid out, although it could serve to make her nervous. It might not be as bad as making a show out of it.

[Dorian Gray]

25. Agree

I understand the rule and why children need to be potty trained to attend pre-school, but the teacher should have used discretion and discussed with the parents, not "everyone..." (whether that was the students or other parents or what, I don't know...)

[KittyWampus]

32. "ROSSO SAID". There's 2 sides. Parents aren't pinnacles of truth when it comes to their little

precious and their own parenting capabilities.

[LisaL]

55. If you read the article, that was the pre-school before the one

that suspended the child.
Mother removed her child from that pre-school and put her into the one that suspended her for having too many accidents.
Now the child is in the third school.

[ejpoeta]

10. my daughter got kicked out of 3 year old preschool because she was still in a diaper

and she didn't behave in class. Mind you, emily is smart. always has been. she was reading before kindergarten. but she was stubborn. after she got the boot from the preschool i worked to get her ready for the next year. I worked on getting her to sit still to listen to a story and once I figured out that she could hold it and that the potty issue was more of a control one, I told her she could pee all over she wasn't getting another diaper. and she went over to her potty chair and went potty on it. She was much better the next year. To expect a 3 year old to be completely potty trained.... I don't know. Neither of my 2 older kids were potty trained fully before 3 and a half. I almost had Emily before 3 but then I started watching a girl who was a year younger and it caused a set back. Potty training can be easily messed up.

[AngryAmish]

14. in Catholic preschool no accidents are allowed

no teacher, teacher's aids allowed in bathrooms.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. Uphill both ways too?

[AngryAmish]

19. Silly, no?

The Chicago Archdiocese has been sued to the begebus belt for molesting little kids so they are a bit gun shy nowadays.

[JVS]

15. The requirement of the preschool I went to was that one had to be potty trained before...

they would let you sign up. It seems rather insensitive of the mother to put the child in such a situation by sending her to the school before she has been fully potty trained.

[NuclearDem]

20. What a load of crap

[Ichingcarpenter]

27. That's what the Pedagogue said.

LOL...

[d_r]

21. It is not developmentally appropriate

In any way, shape or form.

That said, I know of child care centers here in Tenn. that have three strikes, your out rules about pottying. Three.

There is no guarantee in America that all children have access to public education before kindergarten.
None.
A child with a diagnosed disability can get a family services plan before kindergarten.

But there is no requirement for public preschool. That means they can set any rules they want.

I'm not saying that is "right" but it is just the way it is at this point in time. They don't have to make any accommodations. In this case it is operated through the public school system but there are not any federal rules about pre/K and access. I'm guessing that this is "news" because it is pre/K through the public school system. Otherwise, their are kids terminated from preschool because of pottying all the time. All. the. time.

[Karia]

22. It can be tough with some kids...

My daughter was almost fully potty-trained at 2yo, but was then terrified by the automatic flush in a public restroom (it flushed while she was sitting on it). After that she was afraid to sit on toilets! We basically had to start all over and take it more slowly. She was not really potty-trained until she was 3.5, and even then had accidents when surprised by loud noises. It was very humiliating for her.

[peace13]

23. At any rate, the child needs a new school.

Her parents need to find a school that fits the needs of their child.

[forty6]

26. The final paragraph of the article says that they have done just that!

And the child has been "accident free" in the new environment. That tells me a lot more about the teaching staff at both places !

[peace13]

28. I hear that.

At least the parents were smart enough to get her out of there.

[forty6]

24. Something is wrong with the teacher training at that Preschool, I think!

Anyone working with preschoolers ought to know the basic facts about that age group and the large variance in potty training milestones. I would fire the entire staff of that school and hire some of the thousands of unemployed mothers with college degrees in child development, education, or psychology who understand the basics.

If staffing levels are not adequate to deal with one or two kids who "lag behind" in the potty-training norms, the school is probably poorly staffed for most other needs of preschoolers, too. Flush the teaching staff out and start over.

[Xithras]

42. Many preschools no longer allow teachers to change kids.

When my wife was a preschool teacher, she worked in one such school. If a kid had an "accident", that kid was sent to the office where they had to sit in it until their parents arrived. The school had a firm "only potty trained kids" rule, so it didn't happen often, but EVERYONE was unhappy when it did.

It's a side effect of our "OMIGOD EVERYONE IS A CHILD MOLESTER" society. Schools don't even want to risk it anymore.

[madmom]

29. My son was totally potty trained by the time he was 3, BUT, he would get

so engrossed in his task at hand, what ever it may be, that he would wait until the last minute, then not get there on time. I had to give him little reminders every hour or so.:shrug:

[nessa]

30. My son was kicked out of preschool at 3 because he was..

well he was just himself, LOL.

He just wasn't ready. He was 100% potty trained with no accidents, he had no separation anxiety.

His problem was that he just would not listen to them and he escaped twice. He refused to come out of one those playground tunnels when called, he stuck his head in the toilet and was singing. The teacher said he was 'experimenting with sound'.

We kept him home, where he could experiment all he wanted. He went to preschool the next year and was fine.

I don't think 3 year olds need to be in school, it's nice if they're ready for that much structure but it's not necessary.

[forty6]

31. Very good points. What is the need for "preschool" for 3 year olds..

if one can be a competent parent and has the time to devote to "normal" 3 year olds, there's really no need to put them in a "school" at that age. Schools for 3 year olds should be for those who need the extra help overcoming some challenges they face, developmentally, physically, mentally. What kind of a "school" for 3 year olds expects them to act like kindergarteners? The kids are TOO YOUNG to act that way.

[KittyWampus]

33. Pre-School is for 4 year olds. 3 year olds are toddlers in day care.

[Oilwellian]

51. Head Start recruits 3 year olds and they're considered a pre-school

They also have potty rules. If a 3 year old Head Start student has frequent accidents, they are withdrawn and re-admitted later in the year (if a slot is open) or they come back the following year. If it's happening with a 4 year old, the Disability & Health components of Head Start kick in and psychological services are offered.

There are very strict diapering laws, both state and federal, that are imposed on daycare facilities that take care of babies and toddlers. Schools are not set up for that type of "service" and children who aren't potty trained, can't be expected to manage in a classroom all day. The teacher can't teach and the children can't learn. Of course accidents do happen and are to be expected, but a consistent lack of control indicates the child is not able to meet the minimum school requirements to be a student. It's unfortunate 3 year olds are in a state of limbo the entire year between daycare and preschool, usually teetering on their success at kicking the diaper. We had many mothers wanting to go to school or work, but couldn't afford daycare and they were also stuck in limbo until their children were potty trained.

I stopped working at Head Start just as they were acquiring a new center that would be providing daycare for infants and toddlers. I was very much a part of the planning stage for this new and much needed service in the community, and the rules and regulations for "diapering stations" were very strict and for good reason. The health concerns for children coming directly in contact with feces are enormous and the federal guidelines for preventing this from happening are daunting to say the least.

[eShirl]

34. had to see some kind of pediatric urologist when I was 5 because of accidents in kindergarten

apparently my bladder didn't have the same capacity as most children that age

the exercises he gave me were the same as they give to middle age women to keep the pelvic floor muscles toned - starting and stopping the urine several times while urinating

didn't find out until I was an adult that childhood nocturnal incontinence (also part of my problem at the time) was an inherited problem that an older sibling and parent also had suffered from at that age

[GoldenOldie]

37. Surprised this came out of a Montessori school

My granddaughter attended Montessori pre-school and their phylosophy was that each and every child progressed at independent times and levels.
What if this toddler becomes so absorbed in play or activities, that she ignore the sensations for need of potty. Although my granddaughter trained by the age of two, I know many children who were much later and not because the parents and family members didn't work at it.

[Bigmack]

36. Many old men I know wouldn't last in that school. nt

[Pisces]

38. This is normal in a preschool. They require your child be completely potty trained.

Daycare has different licensing than preschool. If your child has an accident that is ok, this must have been a case where the child was not fully potty trained. There is no cause for outrage here
nor should the mother have been surprised.

[forty6]

44. I've actually never seen such a bullshit burocratic answer as yours...I'm sure all 3 yr olds

know the difference in licensing and when to pee and when not to pee... depending upon which group setting they are in.

Punishing the mother and the child as you have done here with your ignorant baloney post is next to criminal.

I hope you never get anywhere near a preschool aged child because you have just posted proof that you are incompetent at taking care of a growing child.

"There is no cause for outrage here" what a baloney answer to a massively mismanaged human relations issue.

Did your "educational" training ever hear of "developmental delays?" How about "challenged" ? How about "disabilities"? Never heard of those terms? Never heard of "mainstreaming"? Does the word "diversity" mean anything to you ?



Try reading the original article and getting CLUE! GEESH!!!!

[Pisces]

49. Are you crazy, a parent has a choice whether to put their child in preschool or daycare.

This child had been given chances. They only allow for 8 accidents a month. More than that and the child is not ready for preschool, a facility not equipped or licensed to change diapers.
No one is punishing the mother, she didn't go to jail. She will have to find a proper facility and there are many to choose from. Incompetent to care for a growing child????

I think you need to review the article.

[LisaL]

54. WTF are you talking about?

That pre-school has a rule, they only accept potty trained children.
Read the article.

[SoCalDem]

40. If you accept the premise of pre-school, being a "school",

the the teachers should not have to potty-train a baby..and yes a child who is still in diapers has not fully moved from baby-stage, and may need more home-time with Mom.(or a nanny or a sitter).

There is something to be said for letting children progress at their own pace.. not all will potty train early, and if they are sent to "school" too early, where they see themselves as different/a failure/not ready, it's possible that a lifetime of insecurities may be starting.

I had two who were easy to "train" and one who was incredibly difficult. Stubborn does not begin to describe him:(

I know that modern life pretty much means that millions of babies are being tended to by people who are not Mom & Dad, but until a kid asks to go to school (and is completely and reliably out of diapers), maybe it's better for them to not go.

[BlueMTexpat]

41. Perhaps it's because my child-raising dates from pre-disposable diaper days ...

but my children - and those of my contemporaries - were generally potty-trained, at least for day activities, by the time they were two, or very shortly thereafter. There do not seem to have been any adverse consequences for them either as adolescents or adults from this experience.

There were real incentives to earlier potty training in those days and less angst generally. Most of us had to do our own laundry as well. There were no diaper services at all where I was raising my children. They were generally pretty sparse in the US then unless one lived in an upscale urban area.

In fact, I had to do my laundry by hand while my children were small because I lived in a developing country at the time and we had no mechanical washing machine. Yes, I had a maid to help with laundry. But there were times when she couldn't come and it was either wash the diapers myself or not have anything for my sons to wear.

[nessa]

43. I don't think parents control the age a child potty trains.

They may think they are controlling it, but ultimately the child gets it when he/she gets it. When it happens early the parents congratulate themselves, when it happens late, they beat themselves up or other parents with easier kids look down their noses at them.

I went through it with 3 boys. One was fully trained at 2 and 1/2, one was fully trained just a little over 2 and one was almost 4. Same parents, same techniques different boys.

[forty6]

45. Parenting multiple children is the real teacher here, as you so ably..

pointed out.

[Oilwellian]

52. You really owe Pisces an apology

And see my post upthread. I don't think you have a clue about regulations and licensing requirements when you handle feces around children. This issue has nothing to do with parenting and everything to do with the health and safety of all children in classrooms.

[BlueMTexpat]

53. I may have been lucky - but so were my contemporaries, or most of them.

It may have had a lot to do with the era (the 50s & 60s), the fact that we all had incentives to encourage our kids to get out of diapers the sooner the better, that most of us were from families of 4-5 siblings ourselves and had either learned from older siblings or taught younger ones (peer pressure/example can work wonders, IMO), that we ourselves were younger as parents (I had my children at 22 and 23 - my daughters-in-law were both in their late 30s) and didn't feel that we had to measure up to hundreds, even thousands of "experts." The only book available to me was Dr. Spock, who never made me feel guilty because his approach was primarily practical, pragmatic and full of common sense.