Poverty in Appalachia (Graphics heavy... )

[nadinbrzezinski]

First my apologies to a fellow DU'er. I wish I realized he was posting from the worst region of poverty in the US

What follows are photos from Appalachia, which is an area of the US that is just as bad as the Ciudades Perdidas in Mexico...

Appalachia, the worst poverty concentration in the US for ever...

Yes thanks for pointing this out. That is to the same level I saw in Mexico. And it is inexcusable.











http://aasuast.org/resources/_wsb_349x260_Picture+198.jpg












This is the other America that a certain person some of you do not like was trying to talk about as well.

Appalachia is one of the poorest areas of the country.

Here for a report from 2008

August 27, 2008
Poverty report — Appalachian statistics are still appalling

The report of an increase in Appalachian residents living in poverty last year should come as no great surprise. But that does not make the news that 114,000 more individuals in the region have now reached this economic low any easier to accept.

Appalachia is now home to 13.3 million people living in poverty, according to U.S. Census Bureau figures released Tuesday.

Along with West Virginia and Virginia, the Appalachian region also includes parts of Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Maryland, Mississippi, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Tennessee.

Eternal optimists can find good news in the report. The number of people in the region who did not have health insurance last year fell to 13.6 million from 13.7 million from the year before, and median incomes were up in all the Appalachian states, where the median income ranged from a little over $36,000 in Mississippi to $68,080 in Maryland.

http://bdtonline.com/editorials/x519526036/Poverty-report-Appalachian-statistics-are-still-appalling

So when people speak of poverty in the US in general, no we are not that bad. When you look at particular regions, yes we are. Oh and none of those photos comes from anywhere close to the US Mexico Border. Tehy are all from the Appalachia region. Bellow for your comparison is this





So yes we MUST do better.. but that is exactly what Edwards was talking about.

[kentuck]

1. My home.

I was born and raised in the corner of KY that touches both VA and TN... Drugs are the present scourge.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Yes I know they are

I remember you and I having this conversation after the Census Worker "committed suicide." I still think tying your hands on your back and committing suicide don't make sense.

you got a low level war there... not as bad as the war on drugs in mexico, but where it was fifteen years ago

[era veteran]

167. I never bought the KSP saying he killed himself either.

My family from Taylor Co. Kentucky, far from the coal fields. There are pockets of poverty all over the south. I appreciate the post as lots of friends from coal mining Kentucky.
Thanks also for further down the thread pointing out the slurs used by the rest of the country to describe these unfortunate people. Seems sometimes that the very political side, the left, will defend all other groups from disparaging comments will beat the hillbilly, incest loving, poor. dumb and etc. stereotype to death.

Every time I see these type comments I alert and answer. I get really pissed off that the very people with empathy for all other groups will depersonalize these people like comic book characters.

We die in great numbers in our wars.

During WW2, coal mining men could be exempted from the draft which caused educational problems because so many deprived of the GI Bill of Rights.

Reminds me of living in W. Germany when I was in the Army. Some German friends, I guess forgetting I could speak German ( funny with a heavy southern accent), used the word auslander (alien) in a mean way when some other Americans left a room. We should not get that feeling in our own country.
As I mentioned, I have a heavy southern accent. I have used it to my advantage for years. You may be surprised that some people think that you are stupid when they hear you talk. It immediately gave me advantage in argument as I was painfully aware of that.

Thanks again for your post.

[X_Digger]

23. Anywhere near Pikeville? I'm from Grundy, VA.

Here are some pictures of my extended family's homes in Grundy..

[JackintheGreen]

28. My mother grew up in Pikeville

The family got chased out in the sixties after VISTA came in an suggested there might be other options to coal heat. My gramps was seen to be a collaborator even though he was just trying to balance a budget. He'd been a stump preacher in Pikeville, Coal Run, Fords Branch area.

[X_Digger]

31. Coal is king in that area. You challenge it at your peril. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

52. My father was born in Zebulon, on Raccoon Creek

Nearly all of the extended family are still there in the Pikeville area. If you know any Maynards, Thompsons, Blackburns, Strattons, or Hunts (and others), those are my kin.

[X_Digger]

64. Funny how all the names in an area are the same..

In Grundy, it was.. Rife, Stiltner, Deel, Lester, Justice, Keen(e), Ward, Davis, and Jackson.

Across the mountain, it was Dotson, Fletcher, Justus, Viers, Mullins, Estep, and Carter.

[kentuck]

83. About 14 miles from Cumberland Gap..

Near Pine Mountain.

[X_Digger]

96. Well Howdy, ex-neighbor :) n/t

[pecwae]

158. My parents were from Robinson Creek.

Had relatives in Meat Camp and Pikeville, proper. Been through Grundy many, many times. Apparently, an uncle I haven't seen in 50 years was once the mayor there.

[Hubert Flottz]

169. My great grandfather left Grundy in the 1880s and moved to...

Campbells Creek, near Charleston WV to work on the railroad. I've never been to Grundy, but I plan on coming for a visit one day. I made it as far as Matewan last summer.

[trayfoot]

219. This looks like my great-grandparent's homes

in Highland County, Virginia. We had to carry water from a hand dug ground well for half a mile. Their house was actually an old chicken coop they had made into human (if you could call it that) housing. Only heat was a pot-bellied wood stove and kitchen wood stove. Outdoor plumbing..........yes, poverty is ugly! They lived on $200 per month.

[Canuckistanian]

93. Drugs are not the CAUSE of poverty - they're the RESULT of poverty

Drug problems happen when unemployment, hopelessness and poverty intersect. Drug problems happen when the drug trade becomes the ONLY way out of despair.

I've got to tell you, I was shocked to learn that Appalachia had the lowest rate of households WITHOUT running water, as DUer Tsiyu pointed out:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x324359

My God, even JFK campaigned in Appalachia on a promise to rebuild America. What's happening there? It's STILL a national disgrace, even decades later.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. There are many reasons why it will continue to be a disgrace

I suspect one reason is that the area is the closest to a caste society, open that is, that you will get to in the US.

Not only is poverty amazing... but corruption is as well. We are talking of street level corruption and who you know means where you work, when you work, if you work. It is the closest in the US to... Mexico and Hawaii in some ways gets close to.

[Canuckistanian]

110. I never thought of it that way

But you're right. Poverty in Appalachia seems to be more "cultural" than "socioeconomic".

"King Coal" isn't just an expression. It's a way of life it seems.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. It is a way of life

why taking on Massey Energy from the people who did... takes a lot of huevos.

[antigone382]

210. Well, it's even more complicated than that...

To the extent that poverty has become "cultural," it has been largely due to economic forces. Helen Lewis wrote a very interesting analysis of the reasons for persistent poverty in Appalachia, and put forth the position that Appalachia followed the template of "colonial" exploitation seen in any land with valuable resources that the rich would want to exploit. Wealthy interests deceived Appalachian landowners, a task made easier by illiteracy, into signing broad form deeds that gave the people rights to the land on paper, but gave the companies in question the right to remove the minerals, by any means necessary--including strip mining that rendered the land essentially worthless. Despite justified claims that many of these deeds were in fact fraudulent, they have been held up in court, merely because of what overturning them could mean for the energy future of this country. Those they couldn't deceive they pressured or killed. In this way the people of Appalachia were dispossessed of their lands, and deprived of control over their surroundings, both environmental and economic; a loss of control which persists to this day.

Anecdotally, even today, there are more than a few stories of coal companies coming forward with a property deed "signed over" by a property owner on his or her death bed, after a lifetime of refusing to do so, with nothing more than an "x"--in spite of being known by his or her family to be fully literate and capable of signing a document if desired. Such documents have also been held up in court.

[nadinbrzezinski]

211. Yep and it goes back to the 16th century...

in the methods.

Right now up to my neck in that history.

I wanted to keep it very simple... otherwise I'd have to write a DU book.

Ok I am writing the book right now but that is another story.

[femrap]

128. I lived in Lexington, KY for

a number of years. I had a bank account w/ one HQed in Pikeville. The manager told me stories of customers who had inherited land which was leased to Coal Companies.....they would simply sign their name w/ an 'X.' There was no education. No reading. Nor writing. Very sad. Plus incest...what she told me.

In fact, I told co-workers of mine that I was planning a trip to Eastern KY to see all the fall foliage and they warned me not to.....outsiders were not trusted.

Isn't that sad? I did drive up Rte. 23...and all the huge Coal trucks would pull out right in front of you....wanna slam into a huge Coal truck? It was very strange.

I miss Lexington...a very nice small city.

[kentuck]

147. Did you go 25E ?

At Corbin, toward the Tunnel?

[femrap]

186. No, I don't believe so.

What did I miss?

[one_voice]

3. WTF!?! People in this country...

should not live like this! My country embarrasses and saddens me beyond words...

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. He did not want to post pictures

I know this is the best way to wake people up.

[one_voice]

9. They should be posted...

matter of fact they should be mass mailed to Washington everyday until THEY wake up and do something to help these people. They're killing people by turning a blind eye.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Unfortunately and Kentuck will confirm this

it is NOT as simple as bringing a lot of federal dollars and money and especially personnel. There is a certain, ahem mistrust, for the feds in the whole region going back to the 19th century.

Oh and there is an issue with local corruption too.

[kentuck]

19. LBJ's War on Poverty may have saved my life...

But there has always been corruption, moonshining, bootlegging, vote-buying, and exploitation for as long as I can remember. Those that were able to leave, left. But, like myself, still call it home.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Good to know

about LBJ... and yes, it is hard to leave home, even when you do.

[X_Digger]

34. Speaking of moonshine..

http://www.virginiamountaineer.com/backissues/1-5-06/page2.html

[Art_from_Ark]

143. Your post reminds me of an Animals song

I was born in a dump
My mother died
My daddy got drunk
They left me here
to die or grow
in the middle of
Tobacco Road
Tobacco Road
Tobacco Road

I grew up in a rusty shack
All I ever owned babe
was hangin' on my back
Lord above knows
how much I loathe
this mean ol' place called
Tobacco Road
Tobacco Road
Tobacco Road
Tobacco Road
Tobacco Road

But it's home yes
the only life I've ever known
and the Lord knows
how much I loathe
Tobacco Road (Road, Road, Road)

Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
I'm talkin' 'bout road (Road, Road, Road)
I'm talkin' 'bout that road (Road, Road, Road)
Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Everybody's got one (Road, Road, Road)
Everybody's got some (Road, Road, Road)
Everybody's got feel one (Road, Road, Road)
Everybody remember (Road, Road, Road)
Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)

But it's home mmm
the only life this boy has ever known
and the lord knows
how much I loathe
Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)

I'm gonna leave (Road, Road, Road)
and get myself a job (Road, Road, Road)
with the help (Road, Road, Road)
and the grace from above (Road, Road, Road)
I'll get me some dynamite (Road, Road, Road)
and I'll get me a crane (Road, Road, Road)
And I'll blow it all up, tear it down (Road, Road, Road)
Start all over again (Road, Road, Road)
And I'll build me a town (Road, Road, Road)
I'll be proud to show (Road, Road, Road)
And I'll keep the name (Road, Road, Road)
And I'll keep the name (Road, Road, Road)
And I'll keep the name Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Tobacco Road, yeah, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Tobacco Road
Tobacco Road

You're dirty and you're filthy
but I love you
cause you're my home, baby
You are my home
the only life I've ever known
You are my home
You are my home
Yes, you're my home
Ya hear me, you're my home
you're my home

Yes it's home, yes
The only life I've ever known
And the lord knows
how much I loathe
Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)
Tobacco Road, yeah (Road, Road, Road)

Do it again, ya feel a thing (Road, Road, Road)
Do it again, ya feel a thing (Road, Road, Road)

[kentuck]

148. Are you sure that was the Animals??

:shrug: :-)

[Art_from_Ark]

151. OK, it looks like the Animals did a R&B version of it

according to the YouTube video. And, yeah, it turns out that that is not the version I'm familiar with.

Looks like the David Lee Roth version is what I'm familiar with :)

[Sonoman]

208. Steve Young did the best version, ever, but

it ain't on the 'tube.

Lou Rawls' version is and it is live and kicks butt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dz1ldFFRvzw

[Enthusiast]

154. The best version is from the Edgar Winter Road Work LP.

And it ain't even close.

[NBachers]

181. Nashville Teens was the first group I ever heard do it

a British group. You can see them, Edgar Winter, and other groups doing this song here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3AWbZcLpGw

One of my all-time favorites is "Thunder Road," sung by Robert Mitchum. You can hear it, and see an excellent YouTube video from the movie, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdwUpxkfSJw

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kalyke]

47. It goes back to Prohibition and Moonshine.

Quite frankly, Southerners loved FDR and got over many of the Civil War issues as a result, but still held the federal government in a bad light because of "revenuers."

They conflated "taxmen" with what was the equivalent of ATF agents.

[csziggy]

27. The people in Washington do NOT care - it's been like this forever

Pretty much. I know it has been like this since at least the 1960s.

The area of Alabama where my Mom grew up has neighborhoods that look like this. They looked the same way when Mom was a child in the 1930s, still did when I was a child in the 1960s and are no different now. Some are white, some are African American, they are all poor.

The people in power do not care about the people at the bottom. They do not want to know about them or hear about their needs and especially they do not want to actually DO anything about them.

[russspeakeasy]

203. The politicians are awake....they just don't care.

[butterfly77]

109. It has been like that for a long,long,time but...

some people want them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they don't have any. I wonder if a lot of those people who loved to quote this are feeling about that these days as they continue to follow the CONS who are making damn sure they can't..

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. I wish people understood that this is not about party

in that area of the country... but I wil leave it at that. This is a very urban (large urban) attitude and until people in cities far away learn how to translate local social mores and customs....

I have little hope of that.

[Odin2005]

4. OMG. I'm without words.

:wow:

[blueamy66]

218. I'm ashamed of my country.

what the hell is going on?

[Modern_Matthew]

5. I reside in this area...

While I do not live in conditions as bad as these, it is becoming increasingly difficult to find any employment.

Since 2008, I've worked a total of 12 and a half months at two retail chains. Everything else has stiff competition and I am routinely passed over for other jobs due to my lack of experience running a cash register.

Doing what I can for the moment and trying to go back to school, but I owe $720 to the Dept. of Education for a grant overpayment. I made some bad decisions during a horrible relationship that included dropping out out of college. I am about 6 classes away from acquiring an Associate's Degree and will probably have to spend what little savings I do have on, plus my tax refund check on repaying this overpayment. Until then, I will get no more grant money.

Most days are full of frustration, but I am optimistic about returning to work, school, and eventually getting myself a Bachelor's Degree in Sociology.

There are many people here worse off than I am. I'm just one of the blessed to have family that will put up with me and aid me in the job search.

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Keep at it, our fellow DU'er I apologized to

did not mention where he was posting from. It matters.


Oh and I know the people love the land, but many also leave for good reason.

[Tsiyu]

150. It's one of those darker blue counties in TN

with 18 to 24% poverty rate on your map nadin

[kentuck]

8. What county are you from Matthew?

If I may ask?

[Modern_Matthew]

50. Johnson County n/t

[Leftist Agitator]

55. Welcome to DU.

I've seen several of your posts on here today, and I like what I see.

You'll fit right in!

:hi:

[Tsiyu]

77. Welcome to Du Modern_Matthew

PLEASE check out Berea. They offer great full scholarships to App kids and they WILL not take you if you have a degree- even an Associates. So that will work in your favor.

Please check them out ASAP if you can relocate.

T

[kentuck]

85. Bell County

here.

[pecwae]

156. Lived there for many years.

Mountain City and Trade. Up those some of those hollers folks are barely existing. Same with eastern KY.

[get the red out]

195. I was born and raised in Paintsville (Johnson Co.)

I've lived in Lexington permanently since '92.

:hi:

[Odin2005]

138. Welcome to DU!

I grew up in a depressed rural area in NW Minnesota and I thought WE were poor. This is shocking!

[niyad]

183. welcome to DU

[midnight]

10. Poverty is economic terrorism.... And why the Paul Ryan's reasoning for

poverty creating policies need to be ended.

" In January 2010, the incoming House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan (R.-Wis.) presented “A Roadmap for America’s Future,” in which he proposed drastic policy changes with the stated goal of “putting the nation on a sustainable fiscal course” (Ryan 2010, iv). If enacted, Ryan’s Roadmap would dismantle social insurance programs, raise taxes on the middle class, and transfer wealth from the middle class to corporations and millionaires.

Recent deficit reduction proposals, including those from President Obama’s National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform (the Fiscal Commission) and the Bipartisan Policy Center’s Deficit Reduction Task Force, have contained a mixture of revenue increases and spending cuts to achieve long-term fiscal stability. The Ryan Roadmap, on the other hand, makes no pretense of a balanced approach. It would slash Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security benefits and deplete tax revenue. It trades middle-class pain for millionaires’ gains.


The Roadmap is riddled with policies that ignore the lessons learned from the Great Depression and underscored by the Great Recession. Policy and market failures set the stage for a meltdown of the global financial system and the worst recession since the Great Depression, but Ryan’s plan still swears by the failed Bush-era economic policies of cutting taxes for the wealthy while neglecting the middle class and national investments. It even proposes the partial privatization of Social Security, an increase in taxes on the middle class, the elimination of corporate taxes, and the privatization of Medicare."http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/6652/

[pnorman]

12. I'd like to use some of these photos, and in this same Appalachian context.

Can you give me the source of them?

This one traces back to a Spanish language site.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. The two bottom ones are from Mexico

offered for comparison

[pnorman]

21. How about the source for some of the others?

Like this one?

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. WWW. Chinasmack.com

I did a general image search with Appalachian poverty

[GSLevel9]

13. that very last picture, the aerial pic of the city looks JUST LIKE

any third world nation...

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Offered for comparison, read the whole OP

[underpants]

14. I read in Blue Ridge Outdoors this month that 80% of kids living near the Appalachian Trail....

or on free or reduced price school lunches.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. It is one of the two areas of deep poverty

the other is spread across the country in the reservations

[jwirr]

26. Some reservations do have poverty that is as bad as that - on the

other hand many who were able to start the casinos are doing better. Most of the people where I live have some good paying jobs. Most in our area are doing as well as anyone else.

I remember when we were trying to end poverty in Appalachia with the programs that LBJ instituted. I wonder if any of them really did anything to help them. It sure doesn't look like it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Our local res... are a mixed bag

the first one to jump is going extremely well. I mean all the way to top of the line police, fire and EMS gear and a clinic that is top notch.

The others... a few are doing well... others not so much.

[fishwax]

107. one of three: the lower mississippi delta is every bit as impoverished too

:kick:

[Dappleganger]

198. My mother was from Sledge.

Her father was a sharecropper, too. There are still some of my people living there, believe it or not.

If you look up Sledge on Flickr there's some great photos which folks have taken...the place hasn't hardly changed at all since I was last there in the 70's.

[hootinholler]

35. I'm surprised it's that low

Possibly affected by families being too proud to accept a handout.

Yes, they really are, when we were poorest, my stepfather absolutely refused to allow us to apply for 'relief payments.'

-Hoot

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. I could tell stories from another country

funny thing, people accepted help from us in winter, but not the government. I wonder if your step father would have accepted them from the local church?

[hootinholler]

37. Probably not

He was a stubborn son of a bitch, but I'll give him one thing, he taught me how to go into the woods and survive with damned little.

Many would accept help from the church or people who the church vouch for. The distrust of government is immense and for good reason.

-Hoot

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. I know the history is deep and long

going back to the 1870s to be exact if not earlier.

[Leftist Agitator]

53. Going all the way back to the Whiskey Rebellion in the 1790s, to be technical.

And the federal response to the Battle of Blair Mountain in the early 20th century certainly didn't help.

Links to some very interesting history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_Mine_War_of_1912-1913

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

The Battle of Blair Mountain was the largest armed insurrection in American History, excepting the civil war, of course.

People in Appalachia have long memories.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Like their kin across the pond

in the borderer regions.

That is one of the few regions in the country when a slight committed against your family five generations ago, is still carried.

[hootinholler]

78. Where is that?

I've not heard the term before.

-Hoot

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. In the borderer regions of England, Scotland and Ireland

you know Essex County for example.

[hootinholler]

88. Yes, ok.

That makes perfect sense, being of Scottish descent myself, we do know how to hold a grudge. There are still grudges in my family against other families that date to around 1915 or so.

It takes tremendous effort on my part to let things go, and some I will never let go, but those things are crimes against humanity not family, well, immediate family ;)

-Hoot

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. It is part of the culture

the Hatifiedls and the McCoys were a cartoon... for the north... but not that far from the grudge part that is.

Some families have grudges going back longer than 1915, but at least not to before the Colonial period, In the UK some go that far back, to the 15th and 14th centuries... rare, but they exist.

[FedUpWithIt All]

134. Most of the Appalachian region was first settled by Scots-Irish, English, and German

It is still very evident in much of the culture.

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. Upwards of one third also came as indentured servants

in the colonial period and this, in my view, scarred the culture as well.

[Cali_Democrat]

18. WOW!

nt

[Tsiyu]

24. No apology necessary

and i mean that


Also posting pictures of places like Pine Ridge and of the homeless all over this wealthy nation would add a lot to this thread..;) Photos of the homeless break my heart because they are invisible to us all anymore. Oh, yeah, poverty is very real here in the good old us of a


Your pics look like a lot of where I call home these days...and drugs are our biggest problem because of the hopelessness and lack of opportunity.

The War on Drugs doesn't help, because it takes the young men out of the community who help blind Grandma and disabled Uncle Joe (even if they're often high after they're done helping) get things done or get to the store or to the health department. Or they bring in a few meager bucks to help get the car running and pay the light bill.

It's heartbreaking. And the rich on this Mountain are as bad as the rich anywhere else. they exploit the poor local kids and make them felons before they've even graduated high school...

You have no idea how often I say, nah, Sewanee's wrong.....they got an earful at their coffeeshop just this morning :evilgrin:

I called their county assistant DA (a resident) and cops the Tag Team Disenfranchisement Group....and managed to get some laughs and wide-eyed stares out of that one...

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Good to know and yes poverty and homelessness

is a major issue for me...

Perhaps another thread... for the homeless.

[Leftist Agitator]

29. This native-born West Virginian thanks you.

The coal country in the southern part of the state is poor beyond words. Many people do not have running water, only the oldest child ever gets "new" clothes (always bought second hand and then passed down for the younger kids to wear as they get bigger), and in the summer eat only one meal a day, because school is out, and that meal is almost always soup beans and cornbread.

Most people have no idea that there are tens of thousands of families who have to live like this here in America.

Oh, and as Kentuck said, drugs, especially oxycontin, are a huge, huge problem. People often wonder why anyone would mine coal when it is so dangerous... It's virtually the only job in the entire region on which one can have a decent life.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Ah yes black gold

why I actually posted one mountain top removal.

I know that in the general it is not that bad in the US.. but this area... for many reasons, political, economic, caste... is a basket case. It should not be, and the other way out, why so many kids join the armed forces, is the army... why so many kids form this area have died in America's war.

I may live in SoCal... where this is limited (at these levels) to South of the border, but this is an embarrassment.

And it needs to end... this is what Edwards was talking about, and why, IMHO, they needed him out of the presidential run.

[Tsiyu]

100. First coal mining death of 2011- just a kid trying to make a living

Nineteen-year-old John C. Lester, a West Virginia coal miner with just over 90 days on the job, was killed in an equipment accident January 27. His death is the first coal mining fatality of 2011, but he is the 36th West Virginia coal miner to die in the past year.

The state’s Office of Miners’ Health, Safety and Training said that at the time of his death Lester was still working as an apprentice miner, or a “red hat,” in the Jims Branch No. 3B mine. The site is operated by the Baylor Mining company.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x319035

[hootinholler]

33. These are my people.

I grew up in SW Pa. I lived in conditions from good to the worst. I had friends who's families lived in junked school buses heated with a little wood stove.

These people are generally the salt of the earth generous and incredibly uninformed.

Thank you for this thread, Nadin. It also doesn't touch poverty in the inner cities.

-Hoot

[Dappleganger]

42. The buses...

Christ I nearly forgot those. It wasn't just junk buses in the yard, many of them were converted into makeshift housing.

You're right, these are good people and don't deserve to be abandoned like they have been.

[hootinholler]

74. These were stripped inside and converted

I thought they were a great idea if not cozy. Up on blocks for stability.

The funny thing is the recession hurts them less because they have done without for so long, they know how to get by. The booms never seem to trickle down that far.

-Hoot

[WCGreen]

44. My mom came from a little coal town called clymer....

I went back three years ago and it was enjoying a slight rebirth since they put a state prison up in the in between of clymer and Indiana...

[X_Digger]

46. My home town also got a 'boost' from a prison.

Just goes to show how bad things really are when a prison coming to town is seen as a good thing.

[WCGreen]

122. how true that is...

[AlinPA]

61. Did you ever go to Luigi's in Clymer? nt

[WCGreen]

121. Oh yea....

[hootinholler]

72. Brings the phrase "patch Hunky" to mind. n/t

[Leftist Agitator]

57. Burgettstown, maybe Avella?

I grew up in the Northern Panhandle of WV. Where are your old stomping grounds?

[hootinholler]

73. Farther east

Fayette and Westmoreland counties. Out in the sticks on the Monongahela River. Across the river from Rice's Landing. The coal patch East Millsboro was the closest 'town' on our side of the river.

-Hoot

[Little Star]

38. This is why I was so pissed off about...

the demeaning "they are clinging to their guns and bibles" comment. That was below the belt, imho. Someone should buy people a clue before they open their mouths trying to put others down.

[Dappleganger]

40. Agreed.

It's as if the commenter thinks they deserve this life.

[bobbolink]

82. That's exactly what many *do* believe.

:(

[bobbolink]

81. Exactly. Thank you for the conscience and integrity!

Its so very easy to judge, and used to be not the province of liberals. :(

[Dappleganger]

39. Well done, it really is that bad.

It was so hard to believe that just ONE mountain ridge over there was like another country of people there living like this. These are good folks, too.

[Kalyke]

43. If you're speaking of me, I'm a "she," but I posted some

similar pictures in a thread either Sunday night or last night.

:hi:

Thanks for the "back up," whether you were backing me up or someone who knows what I also know: Appalachia is nearly as bad as some of the worst places on Earth in terms of poverty and living conditions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. It is as bad a Mexico

[QC]

45. These are the people so breezily dismissed as "rednecks" and "white trash"

by so many people who imagine themselves to be enlightened liberals.

It's time for the Left in this country to rediscover class. Pronto.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Actually it is time we recover the term redneck

yes it originated there... no it is not what people think, and yes it is about class.

Harlan County, union organizing. How you knew a Union Man (which was a hanging offense) the red neck, aka the handkerchief on their neck.

[Leftist Agitator]

56. See my post upthread about the mine wars.

That's allegedly where the term redneck first came from, though I don't buy it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

60. There is some evidence that this is where It comes from

once I hit 20th century... blair mountain will come into it and of course redneck,

[Odin2005]

144. Red = the color of Socialism.

[liberation]

159. No kidding. Red Necks were the union organizers that duked it out with the mining companies

Funny how language is corrupted and retargeted. I can't think of a clearer example of newspeak in action than the conversion of "red neck" into a pejorative during the last half century. It is fascinating if one thinks about it.

[theHandpuppet]

54. Amen to that!!

:applause:

[bobbolink]

84. "It's time for the Left in this country to rediscover class. Pronto."

A-fucking-men!

[pecwae]

153. And dismissed as

ignorant Southerners or hillbillies. I don't care where the words come from or how they're actually defined all those words are used (yes, here at DU, too) to dismiss the poor of all colors and from all sections of this country.

Poor in another country? Well then, the Left feels for you and may send relief. Poor in the US? We don't want to see that, admit that and if we do there has to be a reason it's your fault.

[QC]

171. So true. I remember a professor of mine,

one of those Earth Mother types, with the peasant dresses and gigantic, dangly earrings, who was always going on about the oppressed natives of one place or another but had only boundless contempt for the "rednecks" living in poverty within a mile or two of the university where she taught.

That's a common experience for blue-collar students who make it into college.

[Tsiyu]

193. You know of what you write

It's pathetic the way the University of the South treats the poor locals here.

You see, they like being situated in Appalachia, but they don't appear to like Appalachians very much. They constantly "ban" the poor locals from their town for the slightest infractions, making these people's lives even harder when they can't find jobs anywhere else.

Speaking with students i know (most of whom are awesome, the rotten ones are the "legacies" with the constant sense of privilege and entitlement their Repuke parents bequeath), i learned that they are warned about the locals, how they're all druggies and thieves, etc.

Their campus police are allowed to patrol off campus, and are to me ignorant jerks , who arrest the poor local kids in droves. Meanwhile, the students get a free pass on their crimes for the most part, and have even bragged to me about their "special status" with the campus cops. Recently, two students were busted breaking into other students' vehicles. Why? The GD campus cops were out on Jumpoff road or in Sherwood harrassing the locals no doubt, not concerned one bit about their duties on campus.

My daughter was in a vehicle that was hit head on by one of their student/firefighters who was drunk driving 55 in a 25. My daughter had been performing - for free- in a play at the Tennessee Williams Center. The three other students in the drunk dude's car ran off like the cowards they are.

Was that student banned for putting lives at risk? hell no!

I could tell you horror stories about what the University has done to make these people's lives even harder, but it's all going in a book I'm working on, because people need to know how the wealthy truly treat the poor.

You would think that a University of higher education would try to help make lives better. Instead, in my opinion, they are like the affluent all over this nation: "I got mine. f--- YOU! But you can clean my toilet and MAYBE I'll pay you a little something."

[nadinbrzezinski]

214. Sadly this is not surprising to me

though I will need to travel to that area one of these days to troll over archives. So I will have to be in my best behavior at archives.

With the system that exists in place this is a classic, wether this is Appalachia, or for that matter Guadalajara.

It is class based... little to do with party, even if the power elites have become Republicans in the last two, almost three, generations. It is part of the patronage system.

[backwoodsbob]

51. nice way of picking the worst pics

we DON'T live like this in appalachia.

Maybe one on ten thousand live this bad

Should I post pics of poverty in Detroit and include only the worst pics?

[Leftist Agitator]

58. Go to McDowell county WV and tell me that these pictures are inaccurate.

Or Mingo county, or Logan county, or Boone county. I live in Appalachia too, and in a relatively affluent city at that. But those places in SW West Virginia are poor as all get out. Yeah, there are people who have a middle class lifestyle. They usually work the mines. Hell, there are rich folks too. Not too many though. Most people in that part of the state don't have two dimes to rub together after the bills are paid.

And no it isn't anywhere near one in ten thousand. I wish that it were, but wishful thinking never did anyone any favors. More like one in a few hundred.

[X_Digger]

66. Or Ieager WV, or Bradshaw, WV, or Hurley, VA..

Turn off the main road and go up into one of the 'hollers'.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

71. Oh Ieager, just south of Johnnycake, WV........

Did a bunch of archaeology in that area in front of the King Coal Highway. Scary situation down there with poverty and disease, particularly cancer.

[hollowdweller]

225. Welch used to be a boom town.

I think they used to call it Little New York.

If you google up there's alot of pics of it in it's heyday.

I have an antique panoramic photo upstairs of East Vivian. It's before 52 was there and just a dirt road and RR tracks. A couple horse drawn wagons in the pics.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

226. I know..........

When I was working down there we had do records searches at the courthouse in Welch. Pretty illustrious history they had going on. Wasn't "New York on the Tug" what they used to call it as well? Its kind of a shell of a town now.

[backwoodsbob]

89. I live in Tazewell County Va

I have fellow workers who live in McDowell...and Mercer..and Sumpter...and Washington county.

Want to produce more peeing contests? I know NO ONE who lives like that.Want me to run down to the new neighborhood of 300k houses at the end of my valley and take pics? want me to get pics of all the 500k plus houses built in the last 10 years?

We need help but those pics dont even represent this area

[X_Digger]

102. Next weekend.. (bear with me on the names, it's been 15-20 years..)

Head towards Claypool Hill on 460, hang a right, go through Richlands, over Short's Gap.. Before Oakwood, when you get to where the old kerns bakery used to be, hang a right (there is/was a gas station there). Head over Pilgrim's Knob. Make a left and start looking for little side roads leading up into 'hollers'- drive to the head of one and take some pictures.

I posted some taken close to there at the top of this thread- and that was in.. umm.. 2005? 2006?

[backwoodsbob]

217. I WORK in Claypool Hill

Well..technically Pounding Mill...which is a mile up 460 from Claypool Hill.

I KNOW the area you are talking about and no it's not as bad as those pics

[X_Digger]

220. I spent some time on google earth last night..

They caught a shot of my family making molasses last year (in front of the trailer in my second pic). My uncle still lives in the house in the first pic (my aunt who had been in a wheelchair passed in 2008- hence the unfinished ramp).

eta: Not sure if DU will munge this link.. Notice the worn down path around the press in the center.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=stacy,+va&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Stacy,+Buchanan,+Virginia&gl=us&ll=37.307731,-81.930615&spn=0.016589,0.089178&z=14&layer=c&cbll=37.30775,-81.930485&panoid=zFrONKR1_g2kO11wiWvLgg&cbp=12,16.95,,0,5.35

[hollowdweller]

223. I love sorghum

There used to be 4 or 5 guys in the area who made it but they've all gotten too old. Then one of my younger pals made it excellent but he got a full time job.

I want to get a PTO driven cane mill and start making it when I retire.

Luckily they still do it at the Pumpkin Festival in Milton WV near where I live so I stock up then.

[pkz]

62. 1 in 10000 are you kiddin me?

I do not live like that NOW...but I used too...and 1/2 mile each way still does...I am in northcentral and there is still lots of poverty, no infrastructure work for decades

good GAWD Joe Manchin's house on the river is only a mile away from places just like this

[Leftist Agitator]

67. Where at in North Central WV?

Morgantown here.

And shit, while I remember to mention it, Cassville has parts that are every bit as bad as downstate.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

68. You live in my neck of the woods........

The areas around Monongah and Fairview are as impoverished as any I encountered down in "Coal Country" (McDowell, Wyoming counties etc...)

[pkz]

168. I live between Monongah and Fairview

[FedUpWithIt All]

135. I also live in north central WV and there are definitely pockets of extreme poverty here.

But i can understand why some who live here aren't happy with people who live elsewhere defining the area based on this deep and longstanding poverty alone. There is growth and hope and contentment here too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

137. Not defining the region

just showing an aspect that is usually hidden... and we can't start to fix things... if you know what I mean.

Realize many of our out of area residents were shocked I tell you... since this is not what they expect inside the US.

[FedUpWithIt All]

140. And i understand the point of the OP but would point out that being paraded is not always fun

I am very new to this area, myself. I grew up around Cleveland. But there is a pride to the people here unlike anything i have ever seen. People who live here don't necessarily see things from the same perspective as those on the outside looking in. People here see all the life that is being lived. The have rich and honored traditions. The are capable and strong. They are some of the greatest people i have ever met.

It is important to be sensitive to THESE aspects of life down here and not only to the aspects that get a gasp. Especially if you want to bring light to the subject of local struggles. The fact is, in spite of the struggles, people here call this home and feel very protective of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. Trust me I know

but in places like this message board the most effective way to show people this, is well, with photos. I can use all the statistics in the world.

[hollowdweller]

224. Glad to see you get it.

A lot of the whites thought the indians were poor and wretched but a lot of it was them trying to put their values on them instead of understanding the way of life.

[FedUpWithIt All]

231. I get it and admire it.

:hi:

I love the ways, history, community and culture here in WV. Some of the truest, most capable and sincerest people i have ever met.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Sure, let's add to it

I did not say everybody does live like that... but more than a few do.

So have at it. If you want, hey let me see, from my neck of the woods







?f40c0e74b997dbb01ce524758e0d04a31382c8af



And to save some searching, from Detroit









I say the more the merrier, to be aware of what we have.

By the way sorry, San Diego's low income housing looks very good... mostly there is not that much of it. That is another issue...

[pitohui]

98. kind of what i was thinking too, bob, but i understand the purpose

it is well intentioned but to the appalachian mind this kind of photo is the worst invasion of privacy

"picturesque poverty" i once heard it called and it's considered offensive

not everyone who lives on a mountain in a trailer considers themselves poor or miserable, i have family members who do so and willingly, if we had equal access to health care FOR ALL then in fact some of them wouldn't be poor, because they are not interested in fancy homes or clothes, they just want to be left alone -- they aren't poor (the state of mind) but because they don't have a cash crop, they are poor (the financial status)

i freely admit i don't fully understand the mentality, my dad (and many others) were happy to join the army and get the hell off the farm but some people are really not into the material, they just want to be left alone

even if someone has the audacity to wish to be free and let alone and not join anyone's army, that person should be given access to water, electricity, health care tho -- we live in the 21st century it makes no sense to deny people equal access to modern health care technology for lack of some pieces of paper which they could only get by raising tobacco (the legal route, which my dad's family took), moonshine, or drugs

we create a world where people have to create/sell harmful drugs to live and then we crap on the creator/seller of the drug

there will always be poor people if you judge people on is the house a piece of crap or a built-up bus, are their clothes from the thrift shop etc...but there shouldn't be poor people in the sense that some are denied health care, electricity, the basics of human decency

[William769]

165. one in ten thousand? visit Harlan

Or any of the outlying towns in S.E. KY. thats the norm not the exception.

[nonconformist]

194. Actually, I live in Harlan.

While I don't disagree there are pockets of extreme poverty here, especially up in the mountains, I strongly disagree that it's the norm. It's definitely the exception.

[japple]

209. Come to see me in North Georgia--about 60 miles north of Atlanta.

I'll show you things that look as bad as this, if not worse. And I'll bet just about any DUer could show you a pocket of poverty near their home. It's everywhere--inner city slums, reservations, border towns. If you haven't seen this in Appalachia, you are walking around with your eyes closed. It's there--it's everywhere in this country.

[stuntcat]

65. TY

.

[Curmudgeoness]

69. Yes, this is accurate. Thanks for posting...

It seems that many are not aware of this. I remember driving backroads around Uniontown PA and seeing people living in refrigerator boxes that were tar papered. The luckier ones had several of these boxes all attached together. These were their homes. In the USA.

[lunatica]

70. This is the Republican goal for all of us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Actually their goal is worst than that

this is luxury from what they want.

[Enthusiast]

157. They want us dead.

They don't want useless mouths to feed.

[salin]

75. We *must* do better.

I read the other thread and your comments. Understood completely. Right up to and including the recognition that the OP was discussing Appalachia.

I have worked and/or lived in communities of high poverty for the better part of the past 20 years. Not Appalachian poverty (widespread), but urban poverty. Individual experiences of some that I work with have been as tragic and harsh as the experienced by people in the places to which you referred. However, on the whole the state of poverty per the community, while exceptionally challenging, not comparative - which is part of why I think so many dismiss issues of poverty.

It is unseen unless you live there. In urban areas - it is more visible (to commuters who work in an urban hub - read the local news, etc.) but often in those places some common "luxuries" are present (cell phones, for ex.) and then the mind set that showed up on the first thread - of "well - you can give up x 'luxury' to afford y.

When I taught in Detroit nearly 2 decades ago - in the height of the 'crack wars' - a period of high violence, I remember trying to counsel a student who had taken a late-night job to help pay bills. He was on the verge of school drop out, and the job's hours only served to accelerate the process. As we spoke about budgets and savings (per could he cut back hours working) he said the family (single mom and 3 kids) had cable tv.

My middle class voice came out - hey - maybe that is something to give up... He pointed out that his Mom was on disability, and could 'watch' the kids if they were inside watching the cartoon network, rather than running around outside (which was, as I stated earlier, quite dangerous at that time.)

It was one thing working in a high-violence area of poverty - and learning about the realities second hand through my students. Several years later I was in grad school - and lived in the per-capita murder capitol of the country. Lived on little - but the difference between me and my fellow community members, was that I knew it was temporary - and it was a choice for me to live there (so that I did not take on student loan debt.) Example of the communities delayed development city got its first ATM machine in 1996. More than a decade than after this technology was common for most banks.

Other reality checks for me: major drug bust complete with multiple police officers/guns drawn - happened outside my apt. A murder happened across the street from my apts - for months while leaving the complex, I saw (and cried) at the spontaneously created memorial for the victim. I now work the highest crime/poverty area in my city (last weekend a man was found murdered in an alley 2 blocks from my workplace). I live in a marginal, but affordable, urban neighborhood. The whole life experience of urban poverty is not mine. However, I am in such close encounter and service to it on a daily basis, that while I get (and agree - to a point) your point of the difference of most (non appalachian) poverty in the US compared to poverty in other places, that I could never discount how serious the problems are - and how most folks are immune to seeing or understanding the crisis that so many members of our larger community live in.

Long response - read a lot still, at DU, don't write much. Just was moved by the other thread (and your responses), and this thread. You really are a DU gem, at least to this long time reader. Thanks for indulging my rambling.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. There is a reason why I apologized

Appalachia is one of the worst areas in the US.

A story of another country and poverty.

My dad had a factory... he and his brother set that thing after WWII and working to get the capital. They ran that for 30 years. As a 16 year old he told us one day over dinner that things were getting much better for his workers. You see, they brought chicken for lunch, and a liter of coke.

Now my brother was doing at the time his social service at the city hospital, so he had a slight different point of view seeing the ER and violence... two years later I started doing this EMS shtick... and my father was still going on that... well that shattered the first two calls to a ciudad perdida.

That is when poverty a real issue for me.

Incidentally I just gave money to a group that does work with child poverty locally. Five bucks, may not sound like much... that is a day of meals, but you knew that.

Oh and I forgot, that factory went away with NAFTA.

[RegieRocker]

86. Thank you for posting this! Way too many have no clue

to conditions in the grand ol US of A. They think there world is it for everyone.

[somone]

87. Reminds me of that Frontline series on Appalachia - "Country Boys"

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/countryboys/

[tabbycat31]

184. there's a good 60 minutes? on it too

If it's not 60 minutes then it's Dateline. It's called "Children of the Mountains"

I worked in KY this last election cycle, but not in the eastern part of the state (I was in Lexington). The guy I stayed with is from Appalachia and he showed me this one night after I got back. It's on youtube and very powerful.

This east coast girl had no idea.

[Tsiyu]

90. The Census misses many of these folks

I did address canvassing here for 2010. I'm a little bitty thing and most of the men here are kind toward women, so I was never really afraid. What i did learn is that the US Govt had no idea where all these people were.

The roads they put on my mapspotter were all screwed up (i especially loved how they turned every place named for the Poplar tree into "popular" ) and I had to redraw many roads.

You would not believe how many people told me that in all the years they had been alive, they had never filled out the Census. And honestly, there were places i could not get to in my little car, though I tried to note their general location.

I am sure most outsiders would be scared to death to come up here so they probably just made the numbers up or just didn't count them. So I would say we really don't get an accurate assessment of just how many people live in shacks, old travel trailers and caves.

To reiterate the above...these are the most beautiful people I know...white, black, cherokee whatever. They have a purity of heart that you just don't find in many places in America.

They don't deserve the hard lives they lead - not with the GDP the US has....

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. Hugs, I know that people deserve better

and we owe this to others.

[Cleita]

91. Trouble is, our national news media did a report

on this forty years ago. I can't remember if it was 60 Minutes or some other, at that time, credible broadcast news before it became for profit news. It was around the time that LBJ was doing his war on poverty. It looks like nothing has changed.

[somone]

97. Diane Sawyer revisited the area not long ago - not much had changed

Diane Sawyer's Appalachian Poverty Special Rates Huge For ABC
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/16/diane-sawyers-appalachian_n_167236.html

[GrpCaptMandrake]

175. Diane Sawyer?

You mean that idiotic piece she did where she identified "Mountain Dew Mouth" as a cause of tooth decay in Appalachia, all the while missing the toxic effects of Mountaintop Removal on the local water supply?

There's a reason we hillbillies don't trust "furriners." Nine times out of ten, when they come here, they go back to Manhattan with some insipid piece of garbage like Diane Sawyer did.

[foxfeet]

204. Agreed. The people have no say in how they are portrayed.

And the resentment is justified. (I grew up in Mason County, WV.)

[bobbolink]

92. Shame on this country, and shame on the Democrats, in particular!

:nuke:

Thank you for posting this... we ALL need to think about this in DEPTH.

[maryf]

118. Amen.

thanks! :hi:

[underseasurveyor]

94. But they live in America so it's not as bad.

As some DUer's around here oh so righteously insist upon.

It's horrible and it's sad and it's getting worse.

[handmade34]

99. I have no photos

but the images stay with me... I worked in Appalachia about 2 years ago and I saw many houses/situations just as you have posted. But it is not just Appalachia... I have seen the poverty in every state, rural and urban, from California to Maine and Michigan to Louisiana. It is my job to travel the U.S. and visit neighborhoods (been doing it for 6 years). Everyone should see what I see and witness how some people live... the bad is not all in poverty nor wealth, rural or urban... and good comes from people I meet in all walks... We must do better and not one person should be without a safe home in the United States.

Thank you for the photos...

[nadinbrzezinski]

105. The photos are on the web

I took a vicarious trip tonight thanks to the web.

[bobbolink]

190. Have you considered writing a book about what you have seen?

It is clear that so many people labor under false assumptions.

Thank you for having the compassion and integrity to do what you do!

[somone]

103. Little improvement since Stern's photos - the photos that began the War on Poverty

http://www.andresternphoto.com/about-appachia.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. The gains we have made

have been lost. That is the truth.

[handmade34]

108. thanks for the link

[Tsiyu]

114. There has been a lot of improvement actually but not enough

the War on Poverty combined with rural electrification helped a lot of people. But now that the economy is gone down the tubes the old issues are resurfacing and those who were able to maintain a better status of living have had to lose much of what they gained.

Literacy is much better, access to healthcare - through Tenncare where I am - is better and most homes have electricity and phones thanks to our rural coops.

Like pitouhi said upthread, most people are happy overall. I love my little nasty shack and hate it all at the same time. it allows me to live in one of the most unspoiled places in the US. You have to understand the love of the mountains, and how you can hike to the most beautiful, sacred places. It is cool up here in the Southern Summers, and since many live in rundown shacks, nobody judges except the newbies who come to live in the subdivisions they are now carving out of that pristine wilderness. So there is a freedom here that city or subdivision dwellers will never understand or know. You can be who you want to be, not what society thinks you should be.

There's no zoning here, so my "subdivision" has everything from rustic cabins, fancy houses to trailers and shacks like mine. All on acreage. We all get along very well and help each other, catch one another's loose animals, share what we have.

But also like pitouhi said, we could use more access to healthcare, more jobs, and definitely more drug treatment. And water - though many homes are on the grid - is a source of worry for many throughout the year.

I drive past the old coke ovens to get to one of the springs I use. men died shoveling the coal in those pits to make the coke. They keep them for remembrance sake. It's a dark spooky place, but reminds one how America's resources are lucrative for some but deadly for others...

[Starry Messenger]

111. recommend.

I found this passage on another blog today, looking for pictures of Appalachia. It's a comment to another blog posting, but I thought it was very strong. http://thewritegardener.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/688/#comment-1318

Phil Hartsock, on Sunday, January, 24, 2010 at EthUTC said:

Although it’s not often discussed in institutions of higher learning (outside the region); the entire Appalachian region, for the most part, is a third world country within a country. Not just any country either, arguably the greatest country and civilization that ever existed. The people here are just as eager to get ahead in life as any other geographical region of America; problem is, they are trapped in an area that doesn’t afford such luxuries as good paying jobs, mass transit, public housing, daily police patrols, fire departments, libraries, youth centers, or any other conveniences that most people in this country enjoy.

Around here, you live in a shack, walk or thumb a ride to work, if you have a car it’s probably not a good one, most matters criminal and civil are settled out of court, and if your house catches fire you either put it out yourself or it burns to the ground. Bowling alleys, arcades, baseball fields, city parks, swimming pools and malls are only located in cities that can afford more than just the salt to clear their roads or a city council.

During the days of the industrial revolution when American steel was the hottest commodity in the world, cities like Allentown, Bethlehem, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland received most of the credit for producing the steel to build the entire infrastructure in this country. All but forgotten, even to this day, were the poor people of the Appalachian Mountains who produced most of the coal and coke to melt and refine the steel. Poverty in this region is still rampant and the economic situation is always horrible even at its best. An upswing at the New York Stock Exchange does nothing for these people except drive them further down the food chain and into the poverty drainage ditch.

<snip>

Stigma’s that our society have placed on these poor souls like “well they choose to live that way obviously”, or, “sure they can leave, there’s a road that leads out of there the same as it leads in”, or, “it’s just plain ignorance that keeps them there”, are nothing more than self centered excuses to look the other way. Try relocating from any walk of life or place in society and start over, it’s not easy even if you have lots of money. If you’re already poor, it’s virtually impossible for several reasons; you need money to get where it is you plan to go, if you’re broke no one wants to take someone in who has nothing, you really don’t want to be there either because you already feel like a failure and a mooch; It just doesn’t work the way you might think. If you’ve ever had to ask for anything you know what I mean, it’s a matter of pride and self-respect.

Sincerely,

Phil Hartsock
Author “From the Appalachians to the Alleghenies”

[X_Digger]

115. Here are some pictures of a coke oven in my home town..

These are piles of coal to be processed


Here are some of the ovens.. I always remembered the great big flames that come out of there visible at night.

[Tsiyu]

139. These are the old fashioned ones where I live

Many slaves and indentured servants worked these old coke ovens. There were worker uprisings and murders. Men died shoveling in the coal.

They are all over the mountains here

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. Indentures a subject that we ignore in US History

incidentally writing on that right now.

[maryf]

116. Thanks, and glad to see NYS mentioned

Many don't realize how much rural poverty there is in NYS. I grew up in the Southern Tier of NYS, much of which is in Appalachia. I saw lots of poverty on my bus ride home, tar paper covered houses, trailers, etc. I was lucky to live in a decent house, though my mom says we were eligible for free lunches at times (heaven forbid! we couldn't sign up though!). Kids had bad teeth, scoliosis, and weak eyes too, I used to get mad when kids wouldn't sit next to some kids. Here's a picture of a town just down the road in Cohocton NY. OH, and it's this neck of the woods that's prime for drilling for natural gas...



here's a picture from Bath:

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. Fracking central I take it

I am happy that the thread (posted by one from the land of fruit and nuts, aka California) has helped to bring attention, and a place for you all fine folks to talk. Me, will save the thread.

[maryf]

120. Thanks again

Fracking central if the gas corps have their say...I added a picture on edit of Bath, not sure if you posted this before that. Oh and K&R, forgot to mention that before!

[maryf]

206. correction

the second photo is in Owego someone told me, the site said Bath, still Southern Tier NY about 70 miles apart...

[Hugabear]

119. Wait about another 10 years, that could be a majority of the country

Hyper-inflation, collapse of the US dollar, rising unemployment, lack of electricity, etc - except for the wealthy, this could be a glimpse into our future in the not-to-distant future.

[ohheckyeah]

123. One of my first jobs

was for the Bureau of Mines in Richlands, VA. We were moved there with my husband's company at the time. We saw shacks built across streams so the streams could be used as the sewer system. We saw houses with nothing but some tar paper as a roof....it's really hard to describe the poverty and the mentality we encountered.

My first day at the Bureau of Mines a report came across my desk about an 18 year old who, on his first day at the mines, had his arm ripped off at the shoulder. I knew I wasn't in a world I understood any more.

[X_Digger]

124. Small world.. I grew up 30 minutes from there. n/t

[ohheckyeah]

133. Coal was definitely

king in that area. It was a very isolated area at that time and I was amazed by some of the things people believed. One Sunday, on a whim, my husband went to a local snake handler's church.....he said it was pretty strange.

[femrap]

125. Edwards didn't

care about poor people...it was just a slogan for him. He cared for no one but himself and his penis.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. I will not refight the primaries

have a good day...

[femrap]

130. RIP Elizabeth.....

who died giving that turd a son....filling herself with hormones. Too bad the first one wasn't a son....maybe she'd be alive today.

You have a nice day as well.

And I wasn't discussing the primaries....I was discussing Edwards as a flawed human being....one that would USE whoever or whatever to advance himself.

geez.

[madmom]

127. Kicking this because I want everyone to see these pics and I want to read every last post when

I have more time. I was raised just north of there.

[mentalsolstice]

129. Yep, I have family in that area

A small cousin,in her trailer, was shot thru and thru by a hunters bullet, a head wound. Fortunately, she lived with very little complications.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. Oh lord she was lucky

:hi:

[JDPriestly]

131. My father was a minister who cared for the poor.

One day he packed us all in the car and drove us to Appalachia. We were fascinated by the houses perched on the edges of the mountains - shacks really.

Later, I saw these shotgun houses with holes every where in Alabama. I'll bet that people are still living in dire poverty in other areas of the US to this day too.

And then there is Skid Row in Los Angeles.

[TheKentuckian]

176. Sometimes I forget that many have not seen how some folks in the hills and hollers live

Or have never visited the little towns of a few hundred to a few thousand all around. They haven't noticed the towns with a single flashing light and little else or the bigger villages with a gas station and a Piggly Wiggly, a gas station, and a chicken place.

Some don't know that people really live in those rows of ivy covered shacks in spitting distance of beautiful plantation houses.

Not to even discuss the ghettos for as far as the eye can see in the big urban centers where entire lives are spent seeing nothing but poverty and more poverty, people who have no grocery and must stretch next to nothing in corner stores on ramen, cold cuts, and mac 'n' cheese.

There is deep poverty in this country the likes of many almost never see and it is growing. The tent cities are back, people are about starving and getting fat at the same time.

[Raksha]

145. K & R - I wish I could say more than that...

still trying to find my voice.

[aaaaaa5a]

146. And to think that is probably the most GOP heavy area in the country in terms of support.

There is a direct correlation between education and voting preferences. Very sad.


For the last 30 years the GOP have done an outstanding job getting people to vote against their own best interest.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. And I wish people could understand that this goes beyond

political labels, and enters a dynamic that is older than the United States. Yes externally they are GOP... but there is far more to this than just a political label.

[pecwae]

155. How about leaving aside

the little digs about political affiliation? You have no way of knowing how or if any of those pictured vote. Yours was a totally unnecessary comment, but also totally expected.

[cordelia]

162. Thank you.

[olegramps]

166. It is not just the Republicans.

The Working Class hasn't had effective representation in over 30 years. The Democrats didn't do dick to stop the out-sourcing of jobs. They talk of recovery. What in hell are they going to recover with?

[QC]

172. So what have the Democrats done for these people lately?

The best thing one can say is that the Democrats are marginally--but only marginally--better on so-called "free trade."

[wouldsman]

152. Looks familiar

I have followed coon hounds into some very remote corners of Appalachia and seen many homes/lifestyles like these. Being a houndsman gets you welcomed like you are kin. Have been blessed to meet some of the kindest and most genuine folks ever. But to those who live in the area and doubt that this kind of poverty exists- drive a little further up the holler next time. you will see it. This kind of poverty is hidden all over the U.S. In Appalachia it is more visible, but it can be right in your community too- we just seem to pass right by it too often- the worst areas tend to be in the out of the way spaces- down by the tracks, or behind some big industrial plant, or tucked down beside some major freeway expansion. While many that I have met seem comfortable with their own lifestyle, I fear that they have essentially become wage slaves- stuck in bad jobs, and conditioned by multiple generations to accept it. Thanks Nadin for the pics and reminder of the work we have to do.

[fasttense]

160. My husband's family is from the Kentucky side of Appalachia.

They wrote a book about his family.

Strange things happen when you are poor and desperate.

[NNN0LHI]

161. Poverty in Pembroke, Illinois which is only a few miles from where I live is very similar

I have been in homes there that have dirt floors.

Don

[William769]

163. This was my home (Harlan County to be excact).

Parents got us out of there as young teenagers. I have been going back at least 3 times a year since then.

Our family was not as bad off as the pictures above (thanks to grandpa) but my parents wanted to make sure we had a better life. I still consider it my home and always will.

[kentuck]

173. My sister lives on the Harlan Road...

..going to Pineville.

[William769]

189. 119?

[justiceischeap]

164. Approximately 32.2 percent of Native Americans living on Native lands live in poverty

From HuffPost: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cheryl-saban/lift-our-indian-reservati_b_184753.html

I experience an emotional jolt when I read about our Native American population and the conditions that exist on many of our country's Native American Indian Reservations. The Housing Assistance Council states that "Native Americans living on Native American Lands experience some of the highest poverty rates and worst housing conditions in our nation." Poverty is a persistent problem for Native Americans, but is especially so for those living on Native American Lands.

From WashPost (archived): http://www.emayzine.com/lectures/indian.htm

Half a millennium after Columbus misnamed them, American Indians are the poorest people in the United States.

The country's 2.1 million Indians, about 400,000 of whom live on reservations, have the highest rates of poverty, unemployment and disease of any ethnic group in America. That might surprise Americans who have consumed countless cheery feature stories about Indians making big bucks on casino gambling. Some tribes -- like the Mashantucket Pequots of Connecticut, who own Foxwoods, the country's largest casino -- have indeed gotten very rich. But less than a quarter of America's 557 Indian tribes own casinos, and only 48 tribes earn more than $10 million a year on gaming. Far more typical than Foxwoods is Prairie Wind, the casino on the Pine Ridge reservation -- a gambling hall made of three trailers, located far from any urban market, earning barely $1 million a year for the Oglala Sioux..

[Mister Ed]

170. Don't worry, folks. Appalachia is rich in mineral resources.

I'm sure some of the vast wealth generated by the mining operations will start to trickle down soon.

:sarcasm:

[kentuck]

174. They have recently discovered huge fields of natural gas...

now you pumping stations on the hillsides.

[indepat]

177. Reminiscent of photos from the Great Depression

:cry:

[sulphurdunn]

178. What all of these photos fail to show

are the mansions sitting next to the hovels. Where I live in SW Virginia it is not at all uncommon to see a ramshackle trailer sitting across a rural dirt road from a place that looks like Versailles in miniature.

[hollowdweller]

222. True. The poor aren't segregated as much in Appalachia

[absyntheminded]

179. Sad, but true...

Worked several years in the Piantsville, Pikeville, Elkhorn City (Route 23) area (early 80's) for Columbia Gas. Worked on a survey crew mapping out new gas pipelines, clawing up the side of a mountain or up an abandoned strip mine "high wall", along ridges and down into the next "holler", We often spoke with property owners before climbing the next mountain, so we didn't get shot. Nothing quite as unerving as being a mile or two away from the closest dirt road (next pick up point) and come across a couple locals with shotguns on top of a ridge, very spooky in a "deliverance" kind of way. Driving the area was a hoot, dodgeing "coal buckets" (Coal trucks) on coal dust and sludge covered single lane roads, listening to their "jake brakes" bellowing as they geared down and wound around the hillsides and hollers. I was in my early 20s and overall, look back on that experience very fondly. Grew up just a generation or two from the same poverty level in WV, so was familiar with their situation, and very greatful for what I had when I returned home each Friday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfwbUXgNWzQ

[PVnRT]

180. And yet people still believe that King Coal is the big job- and wealth-bringer

There are five times as many people in this state employed in the horse industry.

This is the legacy of letting the mining companies do whatever the hell they want and treat people like shit. This entire region of the country became entirely dependent on whatever drippings they were allowed to have, and now we have this. They're so desperate for any kind of jobs that they've been duped into believing mountaintop removal and ignoring federal safety regulations will help them out.

Of course, say things like that and you're just one of those "elitists" from Lexington or Louisville who are just upset that your view of the mountain from your vacation home might be ruined. Yes, I've actually been told this.

[Hutzpa]

185. Wonder how many there supports Republicans? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

187. Ok definitely will have to a dress this in a separate post

[pecwae]

192. Do you really think

that if every one of those pictured had voted the way you wanted them to vote that their lot would be vastly improved? This expression of "voting against their own best/self interest" is elitist as is the continual accusation of "Republican!" if someone happens to be poor.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

234. Actually

(If I'm remembering correctly) the whites in Appalachia voted in much higher percentages for Obama than the whites in states like Mississippi and Texas. Still not more than voted for McCain, but still.

[Crystal Clarity]

188. I take issue w/this article... What about Northern Appalachia?

Why is our plight always ignored? I've seen poverty every bit as bad up here, yet the article doesn't even mention states in the northern end of the Appalachian mountain chain.

My SO grew up in a 3 room tar paper shack w/no running water and an outhouse for a bathroom. His father worked hard hauling wood w/ponies... they had no fancy skidder or other decent equipment to use. Many people around here live/lived this way. Those photos could just as easily have been taken here. I see houses as bad and often worse in many areas around here.

This is not to say that I have no sympathy for the poverty of Appalachian residents to the south. I'm glad this article is shedding some light on that. But I have no idea why our situation up here is ALWAYS ignored. We could use some help too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. You are correct

The Catskills are as bad...

When I speak of Appalachia, I think of the whole chain. When you do a web search you mostly find info on the southern part, easily that is.

[Mopar151]

199. Stone truth

Get off the main roads in northern New England, take a few turns, and you won't be far away....

I think a lot of "rich" or "educated" people misunderstand the role of pride in a lot of this - or how badly hard (dangerous), blue collar, low wage work can crush someone. Or the contempt that a lot of blue collar folks have for those who seem to disdain hard work.
What the evil "genius" of Karl Rove and his ilk have done is figure out how to use wedge issues - like guns and "welfare" - to pit us po' folk against one another.

[Crystal Clarity]

205. Yes indeed. I've been thinking about that lately

The tendency of some people toward contempt of others in need of assistance (particularly among Republican-types). That sort of attitude has been around forever, but it seems to have gotten much more vicious as of late. My theory on this is the fact we've got a growing # of people feeling frustrated and powerless to change their circumstances. This I think is where the misplaced anger is taking root.

Instead of placing the anger where it really belongs (w/the monied interests and people in charge) we are seeing people picking apart one another... because it's convenient and they can. It's far easier for some to look at their neighbors down the street who may be on welfare and blame "them" for all the woes of this country then it is to do what really needs to be done, which is to figure WHO really is at fault here and try to find a way to do something about it.

I think it's a matter of too many people feeling trapped on the bottom looking up at the untouchables on the top and not understanding that the wealthy are human, w/faults and people of 'poor character' among them too. In fact 'poor character' I would argue, can likely be seen in greater numbers among the wealthy... most of whom were born into privileged lives and may never have known a hard-days work.

Not sure if i've explained it very well, but I hope you get what I mean. It's sad that when we should be pulling together now more then ever, many are divided among themselves for judgmental and petty reasons. Egged on of course by Karl Rove and his ilk as you rightly pointed out.

[Politicub]

196. I am from this region, and what President Obama said

on the campaign trail is true -- these people cling to their guns and religion over all else.

Although FDR won over many to the democratic fold -- my great grandmother was a staunch FDR democrat until the day she passed -- the people there have quickly been trending GOP for many years now. And today, the majority vote for the most anti-abortion, anti-liberal, anti-gay, pro-gun and pro-fundamentalist candidates.

More than anyone, the Appalachian poor either don't vote or vote against their and their posterity's interests. And their fundamentalist churches now wrap bigotry in the American flag, and have been doing that for some time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

200. And to be honest,

how much have democrasts (and republicans) done to better their lot?

So at this point they have what they know and the devil they know.

By the way, the churches have much more of an effect in voting behavior than FOX does and that has to do with how many people actually own TVs... Now RIGHT WING radio, sure.

This is part of the civil rights act and how the elite was threanted by it. This you know, but people outside do not get it. The Civil Rights Act was a clear and present danger to the social order and many of the Ds turned to Rs like overnight.

It is a complex social process that goes well beyond just voting behavior,

[QC]

202. A billionaire's living room was probably not the best place to make that observation,

accurate though it might be.

[antigone382]

213. I'm from one of the most distressed counties in the nation, and it is staunchly Democratic.

This is in Tennessee. Al Gore came to my county to thank us for our support.

Now, there are certainly grave flaws in that area. I cannot deny that racism exists in large numbers. Obama was the first Democratic presidential candidate to lose in years--though this was by a very narrow margin. But the picture is WAY more complex than that. I know of a lot of people in mixed race relationships who have never had a problem being accepted by the community, not to mention that the mountain is full of young, avid fans of black musicians and black culture. Though not overtly stated, I view this as, on some level, recognition that our struggles and our choices are similar to those of low income blacks.

Appalachia was a center of union organizing for many years, until about the 1980's in fact, when the coal companies pretty much decisively broke the unions (there was a certain amount of betrayal of the workers by the unions, in fact, which further eroded their significance).

[Politicub]

215. Agreed - it is complex. But the data from where I'm was born and raised shows the GOP voting trend

and the people used to be staunchly democratic, too.

One of the things that a democratic president did that harmed the region was not vetoing NAFTA. Shortly after NAFTA was passed, the clothing manufacturers who had been supplying jobs for decades closed shop and moved to Mexico.

Rural people hate NAFTA for good reason. I think that's what started the peeling away of democratic support -- at least where I'm from.

But now it's all about this toxic blend of patriotism and religion that the GOP expertly leverages.

[nadinbrzezinski]

216. It goes further back than that

to the Civil Rights Act, and no NAFTA did not help.

[get the red out]

197. Republican/Tea Party

I am bothered that people who actually have something in this high poverty area can vote for the likes of Rand Paul while driving by people who are forced to live just like in these pictures every day. They have NO compassion. Oh, and with a big "Friends of Coal" Kentucky license plate on the rear of their new SUV, pretending their neighbors have a chance.

I grew up in eastern Kentucky and still live in the state. I am just sick to death of letting our neighbors live in squalor and abandoning them to drug abuse and crime while we just keep voting for Mitch McConnell and now the tea-boy wonder. The message I get from those SUVs is "I've got mine, I hope you never get yours because then I might not feel so special".

[nadinbrzezinski]

201. That I got mine... that is the social order I am referring to

It is not that different than... oh... rural mexico... and the patronage relationships.

I know you know what I am talking about living in the area.

Having these people get theirs, does threaten the social order. Oh and Mitch... his family goes back a long time in politics, Rand is a rare carpet bagger who actually managed to get in.

[rasputin1952]

207. Johnson began the "War on Poverty" from Appalachia...

I have vivid recollections of seeing the picture on TV and in Life magazine.

The GOP and mining fought him all the way. Vietnam consumed him as well...if he had gotten the War on Poverty off the ground, these people would be doing better.

I recall him in those pictures, he had tears in his eyes holding some of the children.

It is truly amazing that we allow human beings to be treated like chattel, especially in the 21st Century...we need to give these people a chance, we need to make sure the light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming train.

Initially, groups went in like gangbusters trying to help...but that was the wrong approach, these are proud human beings, first, they need to be treated with respect, then given the tools to make a better life for themselves and their children. We can do this, but we have to do it in a way where these people are not treated as if they are some form of sub-human group. They are very resourceful, they need the tools to work with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

212. IF and that is a big IF, we decided to do this again

We need to start with pulling back the ATF, and bringing in the health clinics, and schools, bringing GOOD JOBS that have nothing to do with coal...

Oh wait that was the war on poverty... it will be fought again for the same reasons.

[hollowdweller]

221. Life Long Appalachian here. That's only part of the story.

Born in WV. Never left. Grew up in Kanawha Co, Went to college Gilmer Co. Live in Cabell Co.

There are a lot of people living here in substandard housing. Myself included.

My place is not as bad as some of those places. But it's an old 2 story farmhouse. Built 1915. Almost NO insulation. Except what I've added. I have running water and indoor plumbing but the old outhouse is still out there and we have a hand pump too.

I live right on the edge of Teays Valley which looks like generic suburbia. To be honest I liked it a lot better when it was more rural and downscale.

My hollow while close to the suburbia is more downscale.

But while there IS a lot of poverty, and certainly a better economy would be better that doesn't tell the whole story.

First at lot of the really bad places? You talk to those people they aren't too smart. You put a lot of those people in a big city or rich area and they'd be either living in high crime hi rises or out of their cars or on the street.

Instead they live in an old house but with beautiful scenery. They can go hunting or shooting or hiking in the woods. They don't have to pay for big bucks for their entertainment. The mostly don't have to worry about being robbed or car jacked or hassled by some cop.

Also as many people have mentioned poor people and well off people live near each other and may go to the same schools and stores. There's not the social stratification as some places.

Hey, and me and a lot of the other appies living up hollows? When the economy goes sour we still have our houses because they and the land are paid for. Meanwhile people who are looking down on us are in hock to "the man" because they are trying to live some capitalist consumer dream that offers less security than a shack a deer rifle and a pickup truck that are paid for!

The things I see we need are better schools and internet accessiblity. I live 30 min from the biggest city in WV and can't get broadband. A lot of people who are happy to live poor in paradise should not have to sacrifice health care. We need universal health care, so somebody won't have to move from their land and go to the city for insurance.

But bring a LOT of economic development and you have subdivisions, strip malls, movie theatres, traffic jams and then it's just like everywhere else.

My wife and I both work at jobs we could move to another state and work at the exact SAME jobs and DOUBLE our salaries. But could we own 85 acres of beautiful woods with hundreds of acres adjoining ours we could hike in? Could we have a big barn full of goats? Could we pee and shoot guns in our front yard? Could we have our house and land paid off by the time we were 40? Could we have free gas to heat with from a well on our land??

While helping appalachia is good there's a real danger in not recognizing there are as much differences in culture between the mountaineer and the urbanite as there were between the Native Americans and the settlers. People need health care good infrastructure and education, but to try to riducule the way they live because they don't value money as much as middle america is not the way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

227. I at least not ridiculing anybody

and I know that these people have been betrayed more often than not.

But this is not about that, in this case it is showing to people OUTSIDE the area what exists in this country.

What I'd like to see, respecting the culture, is to set up the treatment centers for drugs... pull back the ATF... and yes diversify the economy.

[Democat]

230. Interesting post.

Hope everyone reads it.

[FedUpWithIt All]

232. + + + + + + + + +

Very nicely put.

:hi:

[eyeofnewt]

228. Appalachian poverty

I'm from WV....grew up and raised a family there. I've traveled quite a bit, and yes, I see poverty everywhere. My new home state of Washington has its share of poverty, as do most of the areas of the country I've visited. I'll always and forever think of WV as home; the people are kind, good and decent. Unemployment sent me away. The coalfield residents used to be staunchly democratic, mostly union members. Recently the tide has turned, and more and more vote repub..and the infiltration of the god, guns and typical tea party rhetoric has worked its magic. It disgusts me to watch Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh and the rest act like they know anything at all about southern WV and mountaintop removal or any form of mining. Hannity even visited a tea party rally for Don Blankenship...if not so sickening would be hilarious.

[nadinbrzezinski]

229. Welcome to DU

[Le Taz Hot]

233. Thank you for posting this.

I get so angry at people thinking that one poverty is worse than another. It allows them to dismiss one poverty while focusing on another poverty. A hungry child is a hungry child. Color or geographical location is irrelevant.