I'm amazed at how casual everyone's become about torture

[MannyGoldstein]

Our government's top pick to run Egypt seems to be their head of torture - he personally tortured people that we sent to Egypt for such treatment:

From http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/503/omar-suleiman-the-cias-man-in-cairo-and-egypts-torture-in-chief

In Egypt, as Habib recounts in his memoir, My Story: The Tale of a Terrorist Who Wasn’t, he was repeatedly subjected to electric shocks, immersed in water up to his nostrils, beaten, his fingers were broken and he was hung from metal hooks. At one point, his interrogator slapped him so hard that his blindfold was dislodged, revealing the identity of his tormentor: Suleiman. Frustrated that Habib was not providing useful information or confessing to involvement in terrorism, Suleiman ordered a guard to murder a shackled Turkistani prisoner in front of Habib, which he did with a viscious karate kick. In April 2002, after five months in Egypt, Habib was rendered to American custody at Bagram prison in Afghanistan, and then transported to Guantanamo. On January 11, 2005, the day before he was scheduled to be charged, Dana Priest of the Washington Post published an exposé about Habib’s torture. The US government immediately announced that he would not be charged and would be repatriated home to Australia.

Even on DU, I've had people poke fun at me for my outrage over the possible continuation of our outsourced torture program!

Here is what Patrick Henry wrote of torture:

They may introduce the practice of France, Spain, and Germany--of torturing, to extort a confession of the crime. They will say that they might as well draw examples from those countries as from Great Britain, and they will tell you that there is such a necessity of strengthening the arm of government, that they must have a criminal equity, and extort confession by torture, in order to punish with still more relentless severity. We are then lost and undone.

What have we come to when we give a pass to this cruelest of human behaviors?

[lonestarnot]

1. We are lost and undone alright!

[malaise]

2. Nothing matters but self interest

not even the pretense of democracy.

[Enthusiast]

78. You have it right.

Not even a pretense of democracy. Well said.

[molly77]

125. Ex. of what people in other countries think of us.

I think Sweden has laws against extradition to countries where cruel and unusual punishments are used (torture, death penalty), such as Saudi Arabia and the United States.

This is a comment written about Julian Assange from the Guardian.

[hlthe2b]

3. Casual? Or damned depressed we seem incapable of stopping.

My biggest disappointment with Obama administration is that there was not a clear clear clear and ABSOLUTE line in the sand drawn, though I do think he is less the offender than Bush*. That said, how good is it to be a lesser offender of the Geneva Treaty and user of torture.

:mad:

[molly77]

67. National disassociation from fear and terror. It is our govt that is terrifying.

[Enthusiast]

79. The government and corporate

interests are now indistinguishable.

[liberalmike27]

123. I agree with this thought

It isn't casual, it's resignation that we have no power as citizens. We'd thought we'd elected a guy who'd fix the problems. But like the ratchet theory goes, it seems we move to the right, then a democrat gets in office, and we never can move back to the left, the wrench just goes click, click, click.

[Karmadillo]

4. It is shameful, but not surprising.

nt

[Disintermedia8]

5. Starts at the top

Either leadership is provided, or it is abdicated. When the leadership bullies other countries and prevents them from doing the right thing and seeking justice, the media and cultural institutions simply must toe the line. We are all torturers now.

[Hydra]

59. We always were the torturers

Bush just forced us out of the closet. I expected some sort of pushback, but I suppose it's just who we really were as a nation.

[SharksBreath]

74. We voted for a leader that want's to look forward.

I'm ashamed I voted for him.

[CrispyQ]

111. Of all the things Obama has done that I'm disappointed with,

looking forward is the top of the list. It's also the reason I won't vote for him again. By looking forward, he has endorsed a two tiered justice system - one set of laws for the rich & well connected & another set for the rest of us. It's worse than shameful, especially coming from a Constitutional scholar.

Do the current lot of dems stand for any traditional democratic values anymore? When our dem institutions (DLC, etc.) support anti-choice, anti-labor, anti-gay candidates over true progressive candidates, are they really democrats anymore?

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. Humans can habituate themseves to this

it is the rise of the police state. I could go into it, extensively... but we are seeing the habituation of police state tactics, and it will come back to the US very soon.

Once you accept it, it just does.

[Newest Reality]

7. Whave have we come to?

We have come to a point where the Simulation creates a hyper-reality, (that seems more real than real) and what we have called reality is consumed and regurgitated, subsumed and integrated into that Simulation.

American media creates a corporately-owned, one-way, scripted representation and constantly injects it into the consuming culture like as an alpha state inducing drug. Those that assume that this barrage of audio-visual Simulations are unbiased and without ulterior motives are influenced by one or more of a spectrum of influential messages. Consent, and even dissent, can be crafted and manufactured expertly especially so with repetition. Distractions and divisive issues are extremely useful for steering, directing and deflecting public comprehension and reaction.

[JDPriestly]

42. Hear! Hear! Newest Reality. How right you are.

[Newest Reality]

46. Thanks for the feedback!

I just noticed the error in the title of my reply up there, but it is too late to fix it.

[Enthusiast]

80. It all hinges on the media.

Allowing Comcast to merge with NBC was a clear betrayal of the American people.

[Lint Head]

8. It's the Goebbels concept of repeating something until it becomes accepted.

Yes the Nazi analogy is appropriate here. You can also become desensitized to any pornography, be it sexual or homicidally criminal.
Serial killers are sometimes desensitized to murder therefore they do it without remorse. Psychological studies have demonstrated this.
There are also exceptions and those are rare.

[decidedlyso]

61. Right. And it's being used in many ways against us, now.

[Enthusiast]

81. The Nazi analogy is absolutely appropriate,

:fistbump:

[CrawlingChaos]

9. Same here - I never anticipated the nonchalance

I feel like I'm losing my mind some days. The knowledge that I live in a society that tolerates open torture is not conducive to mental health. And many of my fellow citizens are not merely indifferent - they support it (believe it keeps them safe).

At least I have very few illusions left to lose.

[Solly Mack]

10. K&R

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[suffragette]

12. K&R

[democrank]

13. It`s the New Democrats` way......

Forget principles. Just "win" at all costs.

[emilyg]

69. You got it.

[ixion]

14. Bush made torture fashionable again

we should be so proud. And by not launching an investigation, Congress and Obama are guilty by proxy.

[ProSense]

15. "I'm amazed at how casual everyone's become about torture...Even on DU, I've had people

poke fun at me for my outrage over the possible continuation of our outsourced torture program!"

People also throw around the word "torture" casually, accusing others of doing it without evidence and casually asserting that others support torture.

[Brickbat]

16. Now there's a fun little rabbit hole to chase down! Which is worse, people being casual about

torture, or casually throwing around the word 'torture'?

Hmmmmmm....:eyes:

[ProSense]

17. "Which is worse,

people being casual about torture, or casually throwing around the word 'torture'?"

One is a straw man. People who don't support torture didn't suddenly become casual about it.

Throwing the term around trivializes it, giving people the impression that the war crimes of the last administration were just activities taken out of context.

[Brickbat]

18. "One is a straw man."

You got that right.

[ProSense]

22. Yup. For example,

some have made the claim that all U.S. Presidents are war criminals, which] means Bush's actions were nothing out of the ordinary for the role.



Edited for clarity.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pholus]

86. Continue: certain people have an inordinate interest in trying to get ahead of any topic which might

reflect poorly on our current president.

Just saying...

[ProSense]

90. Here's the thing,

Is there any evidence that President Obama isn't adhering to his policy of rejecting torture? No one is saying that people can't demand more accountability for his policies.

That is a separate issue from holding Bush and Cheney accountable.

The attempts to prove that President Obama is no different is not going increase pressure to hold Bush accountable. In fact, it seems to me that the former has become the preoccupation. Wanting Bush to be held accountable doesn't inspire me to believe that the reason President Obama hasn't brought war crimes charges against Bush is because he condones war crimes. There is a huge political system in this country, including the U.S. Congress. I don't see a lot of those leaders demanding Bush be investigated and charged. Is there a massive and visible campaign by the ACLU and other human rights organizations demanding Bush be charged with war crimes? Why not?

"certain people have an inordinate interest in trying to get ahead of any topic which might reflect poorly on our current president."

Hey, someone has to present the counter argument to the constant and sometimes fact-free barrage of negative information.

[Pholus]

91. And you're very enthusiastic about it!

I'm just contantly amazed at the time you have to make appearances in nearly every single thread that attracts my attention! It has to be a lot of work, and I admire that.

[ProSense]

93. Oh, it's

not even close to "nearly every single thread." That would be impossible.

Also, given that there are more active posters, I supposed the fact that my posts stand out more because they aren't on the negative bandwagon.

[Brickbat]

112. You're good. Arguing with you is like arguing with a hydra.

[no limit]

114. The sad thing is that Bush's actions don't seem to be out of the ordinary

Obama is continuing just about every Bush policy and in some cases stepping them up (drone attacks for example). You are right, there isn't evidance that we are torturing people. But just because there is no evidance yet doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And since rendition is still going on it seems a bit absurd to think torture isn't.

[bvar22]

31. Endorsing Rendition to countries that TORTURE...

...IS Supporting Torture.

THAT is a FACT.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-15-2010/respect-my-authoritah

[ProSense]

32. I know what

rendition is.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

36. It does not. n/t

[U4ikLefty]

38. Yes it does. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

47. so why not follow normal rendition procedures

What is the judiciary not supposed to see?

[Enthusiast]

82. Plus one! nt

[TheKentuckian]

49. In light of giving the whole affair a pass, at best does a thousand times

more trivializing and even endorsement of torture.

The complete and utter push for at least a legislative affirmation of the rule of law and essential humanity from lil Cappy Legislative Solutions rather than a lackluster EO shows a definitive lack of commitment on the issue.

I DADT needed legislative remedy then the debate, taking responsibility for stances and actions, votes, and binding affirmation of our nation's commitment to human rights and the treaties we signed and pushed would seem very critical in light of recent history.

Get fucking real.

[ProSense]

72. "I DADT needed legislative remedy then the debate" What? n/t

[TheKentuckian]

131. You have such poor problem solving skills that you need a blue link to figure out

a typo that should have been "If"?

Anything to duck and dodge.

[Fuddnik]

63. Give it up already. You're losing any credibility you had.

Stop contorting and talking in circles.

Fact: Suleiman is a torturer. He was our go to guy, to send people to Egypt, under our illegal rendition program, to be tortured.

Fact: Obama and Clinton have endorsed Suleiman to run an interim government.

I'm sure that might sit well with the Saudi's, the Israeli's, and the neocons and neoliberals in our government. I don't think that the protesters who've been snatched, tortured and murdered by their thugs(as reported by two NYT reporters who were detained) will be so accepting.

Our country is losing world-wide respect over this.

[ProSense]

71. Oh please.

There are people who know a hell of a lot more than you about what's going on in Egypt.

[Enthusiast]

84. LOL!

:rofl:

[ProSense]

88. I know,

the decision the Eyptian leaders and people make is going to disappoint the hell out of a lot of people who know what's best for them.

[Fuddnik]

92. You mean the decisions that we're trying to make for them.

In typical fashion, you didn't address the couple of facts that I posted.

DO THE PEOPLE, REPEAT, PEOPLE, THE CITIZENS WANT THE SAME GUY WHO'S BEEN IN CHARGE OF TORTURING AND IMPRISONING THEM, IN CHARGE?

The ONLY reason Suleiman is even a part of the equation, is because he's going to look out for US interests no matter what.

He's a scourge. Nobody but the elite in Egypt want him.

Mark my words. If they try to install him, the top is going to blow off the place. It will get bloody.

[ProSense]

94. Does the fact that this

"DO THE PEOPLE, REPEAT, PEOPLE, THE CITIZENS WANT THE SAME GUY WHO'S BEEN IN CHARGE OF TORTURING AND IMPRISONING THEM, IN CHARGE?"

...is in all caps mean that you know what the people of Egypt want?

I will admit that I don't know what they want, and I'm not going to presume that all their leaders are clueless.

[Fuddnik]

95. LOL!

What it means is, that I've been around the block a few times. I've seen this shit happen before. I know that what the Egyptian people are involved in, ain't going to be settled by replacing one dictator for another.

Can you understand that better with no caps?

"...is in all caps mean that you know what the people of Egypt want?"
No, it means I'm trying to penetrate an immovable object.


And you seem to be presuming a lot for not presuming anything. But, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[ProSense]

97. Hmmmm?

"What it means is, that I've been around the block a few times. I've seen this shit happen before. I know that what the Egyptian people are involved in, ain't going to be settled by replacing one dictator for another."

So you're a veteran of several revolutions?

[Fuddnik]

108. Keep changing the subject.

The reality stays the same. No matter who the CIA and Mossad pull out of their asset box of people they think can co-opt the revolution, it's gone too far, and it's not going to work. The Egyptian people will not stand for Suleiman.

You'd think that we'd have learned our lessons from the blowback in places like Iran.

[Jakes Progress]

121. Changing the subject is this one's fall-back tool.

[Raksha]

20. I see I've got another name for my ever-growing ignore list.

[ProSense]

23. Why not just do it? What's the announcement for? n/t

[mochajava666]

129. Defending torture in order to worship your leader

You are nearly a laugh, but really a cry.

[Blecht]

45. great for the blood pressure, isn't it? --nt

[emilyg]

70. Frankly my dear..........................

[RainDog]

25. What's the definition of torture?

According to those who are experts in the field - Amnesty Int'l, Human Rights Watch... not some pol whose vested interest is denying torture it torture like, say, Yoo.

The IRC, too. These groups have all identified torture as a reality of the Murbarak regime - as well as the Bush-Cheney regime.

Legally, those who engage in torture or who oversee it as policy are culpable - and those who know of torture and fail to prosecute those who engage in it are accessories after the fact - a "lesser" crime, but still a criminal position subject to prosecution - tho usually people in that position are used to give testimony.

So we know, beyond a doubt, that Mubarak, for instance, engages in torture - and we know the U.S. has used him to torture others.

We knew, beyond a doubt, that the Shah, via Savik, engaged in torture - and we supported this regime and him.

We know, beyond a doubt, because they've both admitted it, that the U.S. under Bush and Cheney engaged in torture - and yet our govt does not arrest these men and try them as war criminals.

That makes all U.S. pols who fail to uphold the rule of law accessories to torture.

[grahamhgreen]

29. +1

[Major Hogwash]

50. Don't take this personal, but why are we waiting on the government to do anything?

Why don't we, or some leftwing outfit, just have Bush arrested when he comes out of his house tomorrow and have him charged with torture?

I think it is because all of the leftwing outfits know what would happen -- the Robert's Supreme Court would simply exonerate Bush.

[RainDog]

52. I'm not a lawyer - however, there are those who are who have put forward charges

in nations that are required to investigate charges of torture and war crimes - that includes every nation in the EU - and Germany, France and now Switzerland have all had groups (American lawyers leading them) who have or planned to file charges.

Germany sent the case back to the U.S. and told our court system to handle this.

So, no, I don't take it personally because the reality is that the former Bush administration is living and acting beyond the law - with the consent of the current govt.

I would not be able to arrest any of them. However, I would wholeheartedly support any group that was able to do so and did.

I'd also be overjoyed to see some sort of operation like the one that brought Eichmann to Jerusalem to stand trial for his war crimes.

The damage the Bush administration did to this nation is horrific in scale - economic damage, the damage to our national life by normalizing torture - the damage to the constitution - and, honestly, I have no respect for those in the position to do so who fail to hold them accountable.

If the court refused to uphold the law - then that's one more indictment of the failure of the current American political establishment that they are not worthy of the jobs they hold.

But my one comfort is knowing that when Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. go to Europe, they will be subject to arrest.

[KoKo]

64. Because....It isn't in the LAW the way it's NOW Interpreted...and so there will be NO Prosecutions!

Attorney General Eric Holder sees only the most aggegious cases EVER coming before him...ones that he can't "head off before they get to him" but...he doesn't see himself as an "Activist Jurist."

That went out with Ken Starr's stuff against the Clintons...and in the Obama Administration...CLINTONS RULE. What "THEY' went through means there will NEVER/EVER be a SPECIAL PROSECUTOR LIKE KEN STARR ...EVER ...EVER Appointed AGAIN in the US GOVT. ...AS LONG AS THEY ARE ALIVE.

GOT IT? I don't blame the Clintons on one hand for what they went through...but On the Other Hand ...I DO ...because they are blaming what went on against them against the US Judicial System and not the RIGHT WING ..who DID IT ALL THEM... So AMERICANS SUFFER AGAINST THE BANKSTER POWER...because Ken Starr went OTT!

But, Nevermind. The "St. RONNIE 100th BIRTHDAY is ALL THE NEWS TONIGHT...countering SUPER BOWL...and BILL CLINTON WAS JUST ANNOUNCED by some Magazine as "PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD!

:eyes:

It's all good ....just believe...because nothing you or I do matters in the scheme of things... GOT IT?

[Major Hogwash]

98. That wasn't part of my question, though.

I wasn't talking about appointing special prosecutors at all.
I was just talking about upholding the law as written, not going to the great extent of asking for a special prosecutor.

This isn't rocket science.

They aren't going to be prosecuted because we have a reich wing Supreme Court.

[grahamhgreen]

28. You agree that torture is wrong, and evidence of torture needs to be investigated, and

those who order torture should be prosecuted.

And that STARRE DECISUS holds for waterboarding, I take it.

[RainDog]

34. What is happening in the U.S. - since Reagan, really, with his contempt for the Constitution

...followed by Bush's statement that it's "just a piece of paper is a turning away from the rule of law to a class of people who consider themselves above the law - an anti-democratic position that would repulse the founders of this nation.

The U.S. is a signatory to the UN Conventions on Torture.

What is the definition of torture?

...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions. --UN Convention Against Torture

iow, waterboarding is torture.

It is the Attn. General's obligation to investigate torture - no matter who authorized it. To fail to do so makes any Attn Gen. an accessory (or one after the fact.) For any President to fail to insist the Attn Gen. investigate such crimes ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE ADMITTED TO, is a violation of our treaties, which are the supreme law of the land.

Otherwise, the law does not matter - its application is so unfairly applied that the group that claims to uphold it has no authority - it is an organization engaging in a criminal conspiracy by its complicity in shielding criminals from prosecution.

Obama's failure to hold the Bush administration accountable for crimes against humanity puts him in the Condoleeza/Nixon camp - along with anyone who defends such practices.

Sleezy Rice's weasel words:

"The president instructed us that nothing we would do would be outside of our obligations, legal obligations under the Convention Against Torture."

"I didn't authorize anything. I conveyed the authorization of the administration to the agency, that they had policy authorization, subject to the Justice Department's clearance. That's what I did."

"The United States was told, we were told, nothing that violates our obligations under the Convention Against Torture, and so by definition, if it was authorized by the president, it did not violate our obligations under the Convention Against Torture."

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/04/30/condi-president-makes-it-legal/

[grahamhgreen]

39. +1

[Autumn]

132. So then, is not rendition torture?

" ...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions. --UN Convention Against Torture"

seems to me it would fit.

[hootinholler]

51. You are mistaken about the casuality with which the term is thrown

It has always been difficult to garner an outraged mob here regarding torture. It is also easy to read people's ick reaction to the subject as a whole as to being a form of tacit support for the practice. You see if you see something wrong and don't speak out, then you imply your consent. It has always worked that way with torture and was confirmed at Neuremnberg.

-Hoot

[rhett o rick]

53. And "people" enable the torturers by looking the other way. nm

[bvar22]

19. Its the New Normal,

now that it has been legitimized by BOTH political Parties.

Also accepted as the New Normal:

*Indefinite detention without trial or charges

*Extraordinary Rendition

*Surveillance of American Citizens without warrants

*Preemptive arrests of "potential troublemakers" (Thought Crime) (Twin Cities pre-Republican Convention)

*First Amendment Zones

*Assassination orders by The Executive based on "suspicion"


Welcome to the "New American Century".
Brought to you by the Republican Party and their allies, The "Centrist" Democrats.

"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans."
---Paul Wellstone


By their works, you will know them."

[annm4peace]

21. Some of us have never stopped protesting and expressing our outrage in MN

I wish I could post all the actions we have had.

we have been having rallies, protests, sit ins at Congress member's office, out side of the attorney generals at the Fed building.
petition, letters to Congress members, to Presidents, to Attorney Generals, to Foreign leaders.

In 2007, or 71 people in orange jumpsuits ($10 hazmat suits) and black hoods (handmade), walked through the skyways and outside in the cold in downtown Minnapolis
http://www.worldwidewamm.org/newsletters/2007/0207/guantanamo.html



Just google "Tackle Torture at the Top."

Here are some videos:
http://theuptake.org/2010/12/11/reminders-of-torture-get-frigid-reception-on-human-rights-day/



http://www.facebook.com/pages/Tackling-Torture-at-the-Top/370422110962


they have never stopped the pressure. It is more than Tackle Torture at the Top.. but various groups in MN

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Tackling-Torture-at-the-Top/370422110962#!/event.php?eid=121350774604996&index=1

Here is an anti torture postcard you can pass out to send back to the white house

http://siberianbridges.org/PDF%20files/111013%20postcard%20for%20feb%207%20no%20wamm%20logoBACK.pdf


Last years events on torture:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=395157120962&set=a.370461755962.151456.370422110962



2009 protest coauthor memo writer, Professor at St Thomas Law school, Robert Delahunty
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=395157120962&set=a.370461755962.151456.370422110962

[grahamhgreen]

26. I could not agree more. It's disgusting, perveted, sick, twisted, and pathetic. Those who advocate

torture, are condemning their very souls, IMHO.

[lostnfound]

27. "Obligatory torture scene" in most kid's movies / TV programs -- acclimation. nt

[Cleita]

30. It seems to have become the new normal.

I remember when we were shocked at what the Nazis did. I remember we were shocked when the Japanese and Viet Cong tortured our troops. Now we do it and don't worry about our "allies" doing it.

[Capitalocracy]

33. I am NOT among them, my friend.

Torture is not only barbaric, it is a sign that we do not live in a democracy.

[SharksBreath]

75. We haven't lived in a democracy since 2000.

Obama is just as guilty as Bush.

[Octafish]

37. Domestic Spying, too.

And wars.

Great OP and thread, Comrade G.

[Raksha]

40. I'm NOT casual about it and never will be.

I will never accept the normalizing or mainstreaming of torture. That's every bit as offensive to me as the cruelty of it. The huge PR campaign to "normalize" torture, to acclimate the American public to it, began immediately after 9/11. And that was deliberate, since torture had already been part of covert American policy in its proxy wars in Chile and elsewhere.

I'm reading Naomi Klein's The Shock Doctrine right now and learning a lot more than I knew before about the history of "the dark side." It's NEVER about extracting information that is vital to national security. That's total b.s., and nobody is going to waste my time with any more ticking bomb scenarios, because that's NOT what it's about. If you need information there are more effective ways of getting it.

It's interesting to compare what Naomi Klein says about Ewen Cameron's brutal experiments with electroshock therapy in the 1950s with the methods used by the Egyptian secret police to this day. Certain methods have become "standard" over time, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it.

[Oilwellian]

41. It was bad when Bush did it

But there's no problemo when Obama does the same thing.

[Raksha]

44. Yes there is! Obama has made himself an accessory after the fact

by blocking investigation into the Bush war crimes. He hasn't closed Gitmo and I see absolutely no evidence that he isn't continuing the Bush era policies, Eric Holder's mealy-mouthed "reassurances" not withstanding.

I also haven't forgotten that the rendition program started during the Clinton administration.

[Major Hogwash]

48. Aren't we all "accessories after the fact"? And if that is true, then what should be done to us?

Quite frankly, I think that we are not a position to do a damned thing about it.

[Lint Head]

54. I'm not an accessory. I've been saying Bush was a criminal before

he ever took presidential office. He should have been prosecuted for his criminal activity as governor of Texas.
A Saudi Prince bailed his damn ass out of bankruptcy when his corrupt oil company went broke.

[Raksha]

117. No, we aren't accessories after the fact.

We had no power to stop it. There was a movement to impeach Bush and Cheney, and no question that they had committed multiple impeachable offenses. There was documented proof of it. Authorizing torture was one of the biggies, of course, but there were other high crimes and misdemeanors. There was also the outing of Valerie Plame. And there was the ultimate war crime: getting the U.S. involved in a war of aggression in Iraq based on fabricated "evidence." If that isn't grounds for immpeachment, I don't know what is!

We debated about impeachment extensively here on DU. The "reasonable" moderate contingent argued that impeachment would destroy our chances of taking the White House in 2008--an argument I still disagree with, BTW. So we took the White House in 2008 along with both houses of Congress...and we all know how that worked out.

[LooseWilly]

85. By Jove, I think you've nailed it!

:applause:

Now, if we can just keep electing Democrats for President, then torture will continue to be ok, and Suleiman will remain imminently qualified. How's that for a bitchin' reason to get out and vote??

[TBF]

43. Letting Bush/Cheney go on this was horrible - but I have to admit I breathed a sigh of relief

when I saw Bush got on the plane to leave inauguration day . I knew that full immunity was most likely the undercover deal that got him out of office, but imagine if we could have indicted him instead. It is a sad chapter in our nation's history.

[totodeinhere]

122. What? What got him out of office was the end of his two terms.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

[TBF]

128. Of course you're not. nt

[jakeXT]

55. Omar Suleiman Offered To Chop Off Man's Arm For CIA, Says Author

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/egypt-crisis-omar-suleiman-cia-rendition/story?id=12812445

Ron Suskind, author of the book The One Percent Doctrine, called Suleiman the "hit man" for the Mubarak regime. He told ABC News that when the CIA asked Suleiman for a DNA sample from a relative of Al Qaeda leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri, Suleiman offered the man's whole arm instead.

"He's a charitable man, friendly," said Suskind. "He tortures only people that he doesn't know.

[xchrom]

56. 'moderates' find themselves of having to support

What they wouldn't with a republican in charge.

There ought to be a disclosure form for 'moderates'.

[Catherina]

57. Not everyone. I'm even more outraged now n/t

[wouldsman]

60. WWJT

who would Jesus torture?

[KoKo]

62. I'm Amazed, also, Manny...but what can you expect without Prosecutions?

If NO ONE is held Accoutable..the "Peoples" think it was all good... "nothing to see here...move along."

what else could you expect when people wait and wait? They start to not believe those who REPORTED THE PROBLEMS... The "FOLKS" think that they were LIED TO by the Very People who reported the PROBLEMS and not those who KEEP the LIES GOING.

It's just human nature. :-(

[kenny blankenship]

65. Only on Fridays.

The rest of the week proper business attire is required. And yes, getting blood out of a silk tie is practically impossible, hence the preference for red.

[WillyT]

66. HUGE K & R !!!

:kick:

[MasonJar]

68. Why are you surprised? Torture has been a policy of the USA for

decades. We know W authorized it; he would be arrested in Europe, but he roams free here. We need to clean up our own travesties before we complain about those of other nations.

[SharksBreath]

76. Then it's time to march on DC

Obama is just as guilty as Bush.

We still have not so secret prisons.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

73. hush. The Super Bowl is on (K&R btw)

[Enthusiast]

89. And W was in attendance. nt

[Enthusiast]

77. We tortured under a

far right president that was elected under questionable circumstances. Not only that but the country went to hell from the moment he took office. Some of the things that have happened have been downright mysterious.

When someone said "You don't steal an election with good intentions." Was that ever a true statement.

[Tumbulu]

83. I remain so depressed about this subject

It is so horrible that anyone defends torture, let alone performs it. We have a long way to go in our evolution.

[azul]

101. Say you want an evolution

It may have to start with re-visiting how we treat the creatures we torture and kill to munch on. We have to imagine what goes on inside factory farms and slaughterhouses because visiting and filming are not permitted. Many factory farmed animals are excluded from animal cruelty laws.

We know something is horribly wrong factory farming of animals here, but we choose to look away and let it happen. The next step, in my opinion, is dehumanizing some groups of people and looking the other way when some authorities torture and murder them, because we have practiced and learned numbness to suffering in others.


“For hundreds of thousands of years the stew in the pot has brewed hatred and resentment that is difficult to stop. If you wish to know why there are disasters of armies and weapons in the world, listen to the piteous cries from the slaughter house at midnight.”
Ancient Chinese verse

[pam4water]

87. K&R

[defendandprotect]

96. K/R

[obxhead]

99. Why would you be amazed?

We have a Democrat in the White House now.

That means corporate handouts are acceptable now.
That means corporate bailouts are acceptable now.
That means the expansion of war is acceptable now.
That means tax cuts for the wealthy is acceptable now.
That means continued rendition is acceptable now.
That means mandates to ensure the profitability of corporations is acceptable now.
That means back room deals to ensure drug company pricing is uncontrolled is acceptable.
That means.....

Yeah, I'm amazed too. Everything we railed against for 8 years here during the Bush administration is not only acceptable, but should be cheered with vigorous enthusiasm as "change we can believe in."

"What have we come to when we give a pass to this cruelest of human behaviors?"
.
.
.
Americans

[wial]

100. Not me. I won't even watch Dexter.

That's where it really turns my stomach, quite apart from the eternal historical reality -- how Hollywood toys with it when once it was unthinkable.

[irislake]

102. Golly

maybe a few Americans need to be tortured.

Not that I can think of any Americans I would like to send off to that nice guy in Egypt!

[bvar22]

124. Multitudes of Americans ARE being tortured by the Ruling Class.

Watching OUR politicians hand over BILLIONS and endorse HUGE "bonuses" for the people who wrecked and looted our economy while having your job shipped overseas and losing your home....
that is torture.

[valerief]

126. NOLA neglect (and possibly worse) caused the deaths of countless people.

Official number is @ 1,000 IIRC, but we know the gators ate more people than that. This is something that could have been prevented by the govt.

And the Gulf of Mexico environmental crisis? If the govt hadn't let BP do what it did the way it did it, thousands wouldn't be ill and possibly dying now from polluted air and seafood.

[bvar22]

130. What you said.

---bvar22
Born Baptist Hospital New Orleans
Lived on the Louisiana Gulf Coast for 45 years.

[BlueJac]

103. We have been the teacher of torture for a long time........

Chileans can testify to that.

[Hubert Flottz]

104. "What have we come to"

Reich number four.

[dotymed]

105. It is sickening.

Another reason, I am begging DU members to help organize a Peaceful Revolution. One that just focuses on the RW changes that have occurred in the last 30 years of our nation. Demand a return to those laws and regulations, then we can have a "do over" and the people will know exactly the consequences of their representatives decisions.

[ScottLand]

106. Thank you. I couldn't agree more.

In the last decade, we haven't learned anything about the supposed enemy. We have learned about ourselves and it's not pretty. We are living the old line "I have seen the enemy and it is us."

[ReggieVeggie]

107. Torture: We Say It's Justified, We're The USA

...but if you do it we'll condemn the actions, hunt you down and murder innocent people to make sure that you never do such a horrible thing again.

[OwnedByFerrets]

109. The lesser of two evils is at its base, still evil.

By "looking forward", evil behavior is condoned.

[abqmufc]

110. The Shock Doctrine..proven to work.

[pacalo]

113. I haven't personally seen any comments on DU ease up on the subject of torture.

I write letters to my congresspeople & either get no answer or a half-baked answer about "keeping us safe".

Since Bush was installed into the WH, our government has made Nixon look like a petty thief. There were numerous large-scale protests against the VietNam war by young people. The stakes are so much higher -- our democracy -- now, & it's baffling that our young people aren't getting the masses together to protest for their futures.

[w4rma]

115. A few dead Americans to keep up the 'free' trade charade with China a little bit longer. (nt)

[Freddie Stubbs]

116. ***BULLSHIT ALERT*** He is not "Our government's top pick to run Egypt"

He was chosen by Mubarak, not Obama.

[MannyGoldstein]

118. 1. Mubarek appointed him VP

2. Mubarek was not elected
3. The government is being overthrown - it's not in control

So there are many people we could back, besides our torturer.

[bertman]

119. Please do not include bertman in that collective 'everyone'. It's our LEADERS

who have become casual about it.

Recommend.

[Jakes Progress]

120. Here's the code. Bad when they do it. Good when we do it.

Makes life so much simpler than all that thinking and morality and stuff.

Reminds me of my born-again, fundamentalist cousin who said he loved his church because they gave him all the answers about what was right and wrong; he didn't have to think about it himself.

That's it. Faith based politics.

[intaglio]

127. There is a constant campaign to make torture acceptable

A campaign waged by your government wherever you live.

Governments and police forces have always found torture convenient. It allows forced confessions that either look good on the crime statistics or restrict the freedom of inconvenient dissidents by imprisonment, house arrest or just being ignored by the media because someone, under duress, has said the dissident is an "extremist" or terrorist.

The torture can be overt, like the regular street beatings police administer to "suspects"; most of which never reach U-Tube. It can be covert such as given at Guantanamo and the Lubyanka, places that are "just prisons". It can be subtle; solitary confinement or deprivation of privacy and disruption of sleep by "suicide watches". It can be brutal like the rape of you and your children, or the slow dismemberment of your body.

Your government be it USA, UK, French or North Korean wants you to accept a low visible level of torture as normal. In the UK and USA it is carried out by "rogue cops," or "frustrated and poorly commanded soldiers," but however often these torturers are found out there always seem to be more of them.

Torture is regime friendly and it gets quick results, just do not expect those results to have any relation to the truth.