'Wisconsin' is your fault.

[earthside]

I've heard this several times on progressive talk radio this morning:

"This is what happens when progressives (or Democrats) stay home and don't vote."
(Repuglicans and Teabaggers winning big in 2010.)

I'm not falling for that line and I hope most progressives and Democrats don't either.

That kind of thinking shows that the establishment Democratic leadership still has disdain for its own progressive base.

Here is the truth, in my opinion: This is what happens when Democrats are given the White House and majorities in Congress -- and then govern like weenies and constantly blame their very own base supporters for all their problems.

The empowering position to take -- and the only position that will make sure the "shellacking" of 2010 doesn't happen again -- is to insist that Democrats stand-up and fight for progressive values instead of compromising and 'horse trading' on the issues important to us.

Listen, elected Democrats, if you don't support the progressive principles upon which you were elected, don't turn around and blame us voters when we don't find enough enthusiasm to get to the polls to re-elect you.

[el_bryanto]

1. Where did you hear it?

I can see party hacks saying that (and in fairness, it is accurate, if incomplete).

Bryant

[HereSince1628]

2. Which Democratic Tactics would you choose? Madison's or DC's?

This week democracy is showing some stirring views of vitality in Madison.
As far as I can tell, not nearly so much along that power axis that runs 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue though to the Capitol.

[Fire1]

3. In Michigan, I think it's true. n/t

[cali]

4. uh, Wisconsinites had Feingold as their Senator. They had choices.

[HereSince1628]

6. I wouldn't kick a cancer victim for a smoking habit during her Chemo session

just say'n. IMHO There is some question about appropriate timing.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. +1

[patrice]

43. Timing. That's why individuals need to build authentically effective grassroots organizations,

IMO around the issues, then coalesce (based upon accountable traits) to consider strategic timing, and then return to their respective parties to communicate ON THE ISSUES with party money-bags.

I think this is the way around the political-party:money-bags monster; we have to ignore it appropriately when it comes to what we share on the issues and THEN (timing) also respect it appropriately relative to our authentic differences.

As poor as we are, the only way to stop the parties' power over us is to "stop thinking about the elephant" except when it SERVES our purposes to do so. BREAK the party paradigm and then put it back together in a way that serves OUR needs, not its.

ISSUES FIRST! Party second.

[WillyT]

5. A-Fucking-Men !!! - K & R !!!

:kick:

[BobbyBoring]

7. Great Point!

I'm so glad you posted as sometimes, I do fall for the "we stayed home" ploy, even though I didn't.

The democrats had every opportunity to get things done in the 2 years they held it all. Granted, there was a lot of opposition from the rethugs, but he who holds the pen rules. Had Obama simply steam rolled his way to whatever he wanted like Bush did, we wouldn't be where we are today.

That said, What does Obama want?

[FredStembottom]

10. The first 2 years would have been a success if nothing had been accomplished!

....If O had spent them simply standing firm on the solutions that work and help millions.
....If he had used his TV time to reveal the Radical lies that multiply in the Captive Media.

With 2 years of refuting the Radical Right's lies - they are so FREAKIN' EASY to refute with the barest of facts - we would be a country in the midst of a full recovery from mass delusion.

If only he had fought.............
and taught........

The man has bravery issues.

[murielm99]

8. But it is true.

Many people did stay home. And others voted for repubs to "teach the Democrats a lesson" for not being progressive enough.

I see it here on DU when people criticize President Obama. Of course we can criticize Obama and his administration. We need to hold them accountable. But we need to support them now and in 2010 as well.

I think we need to learn from this. We need to GOTV in every election.

[HereSince1628]

12. And I am sure those AWOL voters were DUers who need bashing

Well, on second thought, maybe probably almost definitely they weren't DUers.

But hey, lay a burden of guilt on the Wisconsin DUers who actually canvassed, voted, and drove others to the polls. Surely the DUers could have done greater DUty.

[murielm99]

21. Stop trying to put words into my mouth.

I happen to be one of those DUers who canvassed in Wisconsin, Illinois and Iowa. My daughter is a Madison voter. She is at the capitol as I write this.

How dare you say this kind of thing to me because I point out the truth. Many Democrats did stay home, in Wisconsin and elsewhere.

We need to GOTV for every election.

I don't know where you live, but did you know that there was a primary in Wisconsin yesterday? My kid voted in it. But I worry that it was largely overlook due to all the upheaval in the state. This primary was particularly important because of some of the Democratic judges up for election. If repubs are elected, they will be more likely to uphold the crap coming from Walker. The Democrats need to take back all branches of the government in Wisconsin or there will only be more trouble.

I am in Illinois, but I am not that far from Madison. I have quite a bit of family in Wisconsin, and I spend a fair amount of time there. I will post the truth as I see it. And the last time I checked, we had a right to disagree on this website.

[HereSince1628]

26. So, righteous indignation works for you.

Why not contemplate how that looks from inside the conflict?

[Hello_Kitty]

19. Excuse YOU but I did GOTV last year.

I busted my ass for local Dems. We got our asses handed to us because of the incompetence of the leadership of the Democratic Party.

[murielm99]

24. I busted my ass for it too.

I found many, many Democrats who did not care about voting in the midterms. They expected miracles to happen in two years. When change did not happen overnight, those voters stayed home.

People can be stupid. It is useless to argue with some of them. All we can do is try to get them out there. But I know what my experience was. And I know what the numbers looked like in my precinct and in my county.

[patrice]

39. Demographic inertia + Voting "fudge factors" = HARD to overcome in one cycle AND then in the

next cycle the whole response apparatus has to be re-built from scratch EACH TIME, i.e there's no accountable sustained response to our problems. so the money people just write us off.

To me, it all so obviously adds up to BODIES, we need each and every person to feel that s/he is an activist leader, we NEED passion to offset the dollars . . . what? dollars:bodies? what would be an effective ratio? I don't think it needs to be 1:1. There are sooooooooooo few activists that even a relatively reasonable increase would be significant. I have seen campaigns, up against Tea Baggers, with budgets that couldn't have been much more than $5-7K and maybe 3-5 volunteers if they are lucky. Most candidates NEVER see any volunteers. What would happen between those candidates and their volunteers if that were $5K and 20 really committed volunteers? The kind of volunteers, were that candidate sucessfuly elected, who wouldn't wait on any party's OK, but would track their candidate's ISSUE activities in office and commit to communicating that information to 20 other people. THAT's what the churches are doing.

There's NOTHING like this going on in our side of the political spectrum, so is it any wonder that the Money runs it all?

We MUST stop looking up the political food-chain and start looking across it.

[Bandit]

9. But but but..I thought we had no where else to go..

:shrug: Sometimes people don't wish to vote Republican even if that person has a D after their name...

[louis-t]

11. Point taken.

[Ozymanithrax]

13. Progressives and liberals stayed home and...

Feingold went home...and Wisconsin was turned over to Neanderthals.
Republicans were elected because they turned out to vote.

Anybody that stayed home to punish Democrats or because they did not like what Democrats did in Washington, should party with the Governor and take joy in eviscerating workers. They got what they voted with their ass for.

[HereSince1628]

16. Shadenfraude of vicariously beating up WI voters is classic for democrats

I think this is rather less than supportive of what is, at this very moment, a pretty high stakes fight on behalf of the Democratic party in Wisconsin.

[Ozymanithrax]

20. Didn't beat up Wisconsin voters...I just point out that punishing Democrats has a consequence.

Any Wisconsin progressive or liberal (or progressives in any other state) that chose not to vote or did not vote Democratic hold part of the responsibility. Actions have consequences.

Kicking Feingold out of the Senate was apparently worth the action of not voting. It was better to see a Republican there because, apparently, that Republican will work better for progressive interests.

Seeing collective bargaining rights stripped form people, and seeing the wealthy rewarded by the governor is one of those benefits progressives and liberals who did not support Democrats get. They should be proud to say, we punished Democrats, now you workers just shut up and take your medicine.

Actions have consequences.

[patrice]

27. +1! They either stayed home or revenge-voted for the other guy, with the intent of

forcing Feingold out, so they could then acquire a viable 3rd-party standard bearer.

Ok.

But they shouldn't bitch about the consequences of handing it all over to the Repukes, who even if "we" manage to beat them back in this venue, WILL absolutely and most definitely walk way with BOOTY they would not have acquired had they not achieved (even brief) ascendancy.

AND this IS the model that the Professional "Left" proposes at the national level, relative to the President. Knock his knees out from under him, then blame him for not being "one of us, ergo, 'we' must knock his political legs out from under him" even more, especially now that we have an "effective" 3rd party standard bearer on "the Left".

ALL of which will have dire consequences upon the most vulnerable, which is my basic assumption for concluding that Professional or otherwise, though they might actually someday be "the Left", these are NOT authentic Liberals, because Liberals don't justify fighting the abuse of power, by abusing power.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ozymanithrax]

45. Personal attack. must have struck a nerve...

it is progrssives here and elsewhere that called to Punish the Demorats by not voting, or voting third party, or some other equally pointless exercise.

[jwirr]

32. Well you can take it out on NE MN if you want we got Craavack (sp?)

because we stayed home. Oberstar always won - we did not have to vote! And many of us did not. Now we have an idiot representing us. If the people of the Great Depression had acted this way FDR would have been less powerful and we probably would not have labor laws to argue about.

[Hello_Kitty]

18. How do you know progressives and liberals stayed home? Do you have some proof of that? eom

[Ozymanithrax]

30. Voter turnout shows me that more people voted for Republicans than Democrats.

Perhaps progressives and liberals voted for the Republicans. The point I am trying to make is that choosing to punish a party in two party system amounts to cutting off your nose to spite your face. Democrats or Republicans will be in power. Sadly, there is no other choice in our system. There are many issues involved in running a state or country. Which side will do even a tiny bit better at supporting working people and the middle-class? Californians, I am happy to say, understood that.

There is a difference between parties.

A McCain administration would have been very different from the Obama administration. Having Russ Feingold in the Senate would have kept one of the most important progressive voices, however you define progressivism, where they are needed. Reducing the majorities in the Wisconsin Senate and House, or making them Democratic, would have kept this bill form coming to the floor. There are consequences to actions, and deciding not to vote or throwing a vote away is an action with a real consequence that we all suffer through.

Elections are decided by a majority who vote.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishwax]

49. so if more people vote for Republicans than Democrats then progressives must have stayed home?

That's not exactly iron-clad logic.

[blindpig]

29. If the Democratic Party is so fucking pro working class...

why has the Party not done away with Taft Hartley? They've had plenty of opportunities.

When it comes to unions and the working class the Democratic Party has talked out of both sides of it's mouth since 18948.

[Ozymanithrax]

33. Which party does the better job of support the working class?

Since Teddy Rooseveldt, there is no time when you can answer Republican to that question.

Could they do a bettter job. Oh, hell yes.

The question in any election is "Who will do a better job supporting my interests, my familes interst, working class interest, and middle class interest?"

I have not seen an election in my lifetime where I could answer Republicans. I have big complaints about many individuals elected in this party. But in a system where Democrats or Republicans will be in power, there is no contest. Soon as we have a system where a third party can actually elect enough people to office to make a difference, I will modify that view.

[blindpig]

42. Then the system is useless to us.

The 'good' cop is still a cop.

[Ozymanithrax]

44. A rephrasing of Nader's argument that the parties are the same...

It was a bogus and wrong argument when he made in 2000 and equally wrong and bogus now.

[blindpig]

47. Then tell me about the substantial differences.

A regressive health care policy?

War, occupation?

'Austerity'?

Corporate coddling(BP)?

NAFTA & GATT?

Tell me about those substantial differences...

[provis99]

35. a lie. Progressives turned out,centrist Democrats didn't.

I'm sick of liberals being scapegoated, when its the damn DLC types in the party, and the Independents, who were too lazy to vote.

[Ozymanithrax]

46. I did not see DLC types, to use the group you painted with one brush, calling for..

third party candidates or sitting out the election. If they did, they are monumentally short sighted and foolish to do so. Actions have consequences.

Democrats did not show up and vote in sufficient numbers in Wisconsin. What is happening in Wisconsin is partially their responsibility, and they should have the courage to admit they wanted Republicans to win in order to punish the party.

Here in California, we showed up at the polls and voted for Democrats because it was in our interest to do so. It works.

[patrice]

14. It's a self-reinforcing circle. A "chicken or the egg question". This old activist tends to agree

with BOTH sides, but, in terms of the dynamic, MONEY : ACTIVE-BODIES, I can speak only for my side of that equation and say that MONEY beats us every time, because NO ONE SHOWS UP to do the work. And if "it isn't the right kind of work", well, then, no one shows up to demand that we do different kinds of things.

ALL I ever hear from my peers is:
I CAN'T stand on a street corner with a sign!
I CAN'T say anything challenging on FaceBook!
I HATE phone-calling.
I really feel uncomfortable knocking on doors for issues or candidates.
I CAN'T go to Washington D.C. to protest.
I CAN'T put my name on that petition.
etc. etc. etc. . . .

The only thing most people are comfortable doing is just giving money, which then leaves all of the important decisions up to those who handle the money, our putative leadership.

I have been at this, "activism", since the early '80s. I'm not as committed as some I have met, but I have taken my share of responsibility for what happens, for the work that gets done, and I can tell you, my peers are and RARE and have been rare ever since I started getting involved and the REAL grasroots movers-and-shakers are even MORE rare than those at my level.

So, as I said earlier, in that equation MONEY : ACTIVE BODIES, speaking for the side of the dynamic in which I am more involved, I say it IS our fault.

I think one thing that would go a VERY long way toward changing this dynamic is to aggressively address At-will Employment. Everyone is afraid of losing their jobs if they annoy the wrong person, as WELL they should be, a fact which I can attest to from personal experience.

[patrice]

15. In short, too much top->down thinking. Too much waiting for IT to happen "before I commit" so it IS

OUR fault.

Proof? Notice how the discussion on this here board is, and has been for a very long time, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too focused on President Obama and has only just started to turn to SELF-evaluation since the uprising in Egypt and now Wisconsin.

We are a bunch of REACTIONARIES bitching about someone/anyone else, when we should be PROACTIONARIES constantly undergoing processes of self-evaluation for how WE can DO more, in more creative/powerful ways.

[Hello_Kitty]

17. Thank you. I'm sick of it too.

The dirty hippie Professional Left showed up, worked on campaigns, and voted like we always do. The leader of the Democractic party, President Obama, failed to inspire the electorate. I'm tired of everything good being attributed purely to his leadership and everything bad blamed on convenient scapegoats. Either the buck stops at the top or it doesn't.

[patrice]

22. Have you ever read Paulo Freire? I would like to suggest Pedagogy of the Oppressed for his

suggestions for what should be done about the dynamic you just sketched.

:hi:

[L. Coyote]

23. Paper Ballots please = a fair election in Wisconsin

[patrice]

31. Absolutely! a useful thing to do. Something all of the different factions could agree upon +

- Counted in public;
- On a National Voting Holiday that
- Begins on a Friday and ends the following Tuesday.

[JVS]

25. This administration and the party along with it reaping the result of generating backlash without...

making bold moves. They should have seen the teabaggers getting fired up and taken actions that would rally people to their own support. Something like the very popular public option, or getting rid of health insurance completely would have helped.

[jwirr]

28. If you just change the progressive and liberal to - when Democrats

stay home instead of vote" the statement is correct. Unfortunately, the repug and teabagger voters are more motivated than we are. They turn out to vote.

[fishwax]

36. both governing like weenies and staying home on election day cost democrats elections

To me it's quite obviously not an either or.

[patrice]

40. Each side of the dynamic is using the other to excuse its own failures. nt

[patrice]

41. Like a bad marriage.

[spanone]

48. no, this is what happens when you have media consolidation and they own the airwaves

and can promote a political point of view that is mandated by their corporate owners