How dare you have it better than me.

[SmileyRose]

I hear this an awful lot.

"I have to pay my own health care premiums. What makes union workers think they deserve full paid healthcare?"
"I'll never be able to retire. What makes union workers think they deserve a pension?"


Will someone please figure out how to explain to these bozos that union workers think EVERYONE deserves decent benefits and a retirement with dignity?

Will someone please figure out how to explain to these bozos that union workers have always fought for EVERYONE, not just themselves?

Will someone please figure out how to explain to these bozos that they should be next to the union guy fighting for better benefits?


That is all.

[CrispyQ]

1. It's unbelievable, isn't it?

How is it they got stuck in this mindset of "If I don't have something you shouldn't have it either," instead of "If you have that, why can't I have it too?" They work to destroy, not to create. Their actions make us all less off, not better off.

It's such a tragic & destructive world view. The Koch bros love it.

k&r

[EstimatedProphet]

29. We need to understand who they are if we are going to win the day

They've been pared down for several years now to a core group, thanks to their own exclusionist "believe this or get out!" idealogy (which actually goes along with who they are, coincidentally enough). They are a bunch of bullies. They have all the characteristics:

-belligerent attitude about everything, especially when questioned,

-mean-spiritedness

-self-absorption

-a need to be sucked-up to.

Until we understand these things, we will keep empowering them by arguing passively and with facts. If we want to win the arguments, we need to quit assuming that facts will do it. We need to back up our facts with even more aggressive behavior than they have. You don't beat bullies by arguing with them. You beat them by smacking them down.

[EstimatedProphet]

2. Childish and bratty

They remind me of three year olds who lose a toy, so they want all the other kids to lose toys too.

[Carolina]

35. Childish, bratty and

selfish sums up the repuke mindset perfectly.

[raccoon]

75. And the right wing mindset too. nt

[Blecht]

3. K&R

[moondust]

4. Indeed.

I keep wondering the same. The tea monkeys should be in the streets demanding more rights and better compensation for more working people rather than helping the oligarchs drag everybody down to the lowest common denominator.

If they can bust the unions it won't be long before they go after the minimum wage. There was already talk of that during the last campaign.

[SmileyRose]

5. Sadly

I see a time after I'm gone where some bozo has his undies in a twist because the neighbor's 10 year old can actually go to school all year instead of having to go to work to support the family like his 10 yr old does.

[dkf]

6. The question isn't why should you have better benefits than me, it's why should I pay for your

Benefits when I need to save money to provide for the benefits I won't be getting.

People generally don't have a problem with trade unions or private employer unions. But when the public unions are bargaining, the other side of the equation is the taxpayer.

[EstimatedProphet]

14. That's a bullshit framing

Also, I don't believe that that is what they really think. They are being driven by jealousy, and there's a lot of the working class that are jealous of union workers and want to get rid of unions when they should be trying to unionize for themselves.

[texshelters]

17. But consumers will have to pay if

workers make more money, oh NOOOOOOOO! I must save $1 on my 8 rolls of toilet paper if it means that workers don't get a raise! Lower prices on Wii game controllers is more important after all.

Well said Prophet.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[texshelters]

18. But I will have to pay more for crap if

workers make more money, oh NOOOOOOOO! I must save $1 on my 8 rolls of toilet paper if it means that workers don't get a raise! Lower prices on Wii game controllers is more important after all.

Well said Prophet.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Chris_Texas]

80. You would be mistaken

This is EXACTLY what they are thinking, and to a large extent they are correct in that it is a reasonable conclusion to reach.

[texshelters]

16. Really? You think saving a few dollars in taxes

to eliminate health care for others benefits everyone? How much does it cost the average citizens to pay for benefits they receive from the labor of teachers, fire-fighters and others that help the public? Or should we get rid of all those services.

I salute you for making the Koch brothers argument for them and supporting a reduction in benefits for those that work for the common good. Thanks for helping the Koch brothers pit workers against the mythical tax payers. This argument will only lead to more unemployment and fewer benefits for us all. However, there is no better way to avoid taxes than to be unemployed.

Everyone wants something for free. Do the math and tell me how much it hurts to help public workers.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[jp11]

23. The answer is because they provide a valuable service to you and the community

they do this not for profit but to make a difference and a living wage. When they ask for/demand more it is generally as part of what EVERYONE SHOULD be getting but aren't because private companies are in it for profit and 'you' don't have a union. Private for profit companies spread their earnings to the top of their corporation and unions seek to spread SOME of it to the workers.

We can also see the politics of cutting unions down to prevent them from being a force in aiding the democratic party, attracting people into civil service, and further lowering the bar for all working people. Private companies can crush their unionized labor at a time of their choosing, it might not happen overnight but it is happening, government unions were 'exempt' from that until the privately held politicians go after them which is what we've been seeing with all the union busting over the years. The private sector doesn't even need to crush 'their' own unions it can be done for them from competition not using unions and offering lower wages/benefits which pushes those working with unions to cut back, either loss of profits, reduction of raises/benefits or layoffs. In time those companies could be pushed into bankruptcy because their competition isn't paying a living wage and can offer cheaper products while expanding. The answer isn't less unions it is more, in the face of corporate greed and the siphoning of money to the top unions offer a method to fight back barring government intervention in pay rates, etc which seems unlikely.

If we demonize the unions and blame them for all the problems in the field they operate in from high costs to poor performance and bemoan that they 'have it better than you AND you pay for it' people are sadly happy to see them go down. If they go down your taxes probably won't go down but if they do they'll drop more for the rich and you'll find many things in your city/county/state get cut back or shutdown, cause we are all in it for ourselves right? On the other hand if unions get what they ask for you might see a 'shared sacrifice' where everyone pays more, but guess what the people who can most afford that won't even miss it, most working people will and that is a great way to inspire anti-union sentiment on the larger population for the next time.

Unions aren't perfect but the alternative is having every person be a 'free agent' where we are often competing with thousands if not millions of people for the same job, who holds the power then? When we hear the argument that companies w/o unions don't have slave wages or offer benefits it is in large part to attract better people and keep them, because there still exist jobs with those things to compete with. When there aren't unions, benefits, pensions, etc those things will be further eroded from more positions and the attitude of 'get it on your own dime' will prevail further with minimum wage range pay.

The short answer is when you pay for someone else's benefits and pay that you don't get it makes the people you work for HAVE to compete with the other person's employer for workers. When they don't HAVE to do that they can lower the bar on you even further because the opportunities for you to choose don't exist anymore and the competition will be just as greedy as your own company is in doling out limited benefits to masses of people eager for a job.

Apologies for the long post your reframing of the question raises several answers I often don't see mentioned both as the issue relates to government unions and towards unions in general.

[SmileyRose]

27. Some people flat out hate private unions.

There were working class people all over the news squealing about how unions were bankrupting the US automakers. I heard the same pile of swill when Eastern Airlines went under.

The reason why they are gunning for unions that represent public workers is because they have chopped down membership in private unions to the point they are just this side of powerless. Kill off the public unions and the elite can do anything they please to workers without much threat.

And none of this could happen if we didn't have working class people who demand the ball be taken away from someone else instead of demanding a ball for themselves.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. So what? It's services being provided, somebody paying for it, and its price being negotiated.

What should it make any difference?

[fascisthunter]

34. many don't want workers to have that option

but they won't say it. They don't want workers having the ability to negotiate.

[Luminous Animal]

31. And with private industry, the other side of the equation is the consumer.

You are paying for everyone else whether it be for public services through taxes or private goods through the sticker price.

[fascisthunter]

32. what happens when we tax payers don't support worker's rights?

exactly....if you aren't selfish, you begin to see the value in a working class that CAN protect itself from selfishly blind business owners. I believe in a fair system... you don't. You'd rather unions not exist at all, and then what do workers do? What we pay in taxes for public infrastructure is being obviously ignored in your post. Since Unions have started losing strength in this country till now, we see a decline in the middle class and we see a decline in our economy as well.

[Ikonoklast]

44. Get a better job. Personal responsibility, and all that.

You won't have to worry about it then.

If you have a crappy job, with crappy benefits, it's YOUR fault.

You get what you deserve.

[Brigid]

46. Oh, yes -- so simple, isn't it?

Don't we all wish.

[RobinA]

69. I Have a Better Idea

People who want to pay less taxes? Get a lower paying job. In fact, get a job that pays so little that you don't owe ANY taxes. Then you can drive a Cadillac and eat caviar with your welfare money. I mean, sheesh!

[texshelters]

76. That's a dangerous post wihtout

the sarcasm emoticon. Well done people for not going ape shit over the sarcasm.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Viking12]

59. BS. The question is why aren't living wages and basic benefits available to everyone?

The question is why has the system forsaken working class people in a manner that turns them on one another?

[joshcryer]

64. Um, because it lowers costs. It's a no-brainer.

[RobinA]

67. Doesn't the Price

of my car pay for auto worker benefits? I have to have a car, so I have to pay the salaries and benefits of the people who make the car, and the parts, and the dealer. And then when I have to have my car fixed I have to pay the mechanic's benefits and salary. And I'm paying him a lot more an hour than he pays me, the state employee. WHAAAAAAAA!!!

[HEyHEY]

93. How about cause of the amount of public sector money the privates suck up?

For bullshit "job creation" programs and three P partnerships. Why aren't all these "Tight pursestring" types protesting THAT bullshit? How about small business startup grants?
Goes on and on.

Why should public unions have worse deals? They know what cards they have an negotiate accordingly like ANY UNION WOULD.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. It's be nice if we could get that thirst for equality directed where it's useful. n/t

[leftstreet]

25. +1

[Ahpook]

48. Maybe they still think they will be rich one day:)

Become a rock n roll star or CEO of some shitty company? Good luck flea bags:)

You got to be able to act like Karl Rove, and who the hell inspires to be a smarmy, no count piece of shit like him?

Oh right, forgot who we are talking about here:rofl:

[nyrnyr1994]

8. K&R

[NNN0LHI]

9. Tried to explain all this years ago and all everyone wanted to talk about was their non-union Hondas

Needless to say my Union didn't receive a lot of support around here.

Remember?

Don

[xmas74]

45. I have always supported the UAW.

My problem is that, being poor, I cannot afford to buy anything new. I usually buy whatever used pile of crap is in my budget.

If I ever have enough money to afford a new vehicle it will absolutely be American made and Union supported, as it should be.

[Romulox]

61. Yesterday, bragging on their Prius. Today, screaming "Solidarity"?

:shrug:

[shanti]

91. please don't generalize

i drive a dodge, am a retired union member, and still scream SOLIDARITY! now what? :shrug:

[Romulox]

96. I'm not attempting to generalize. I apologize if it appears that way.

But DU rules make open discussion of the issue dicey. Two of the most prolific teachers union advocates on DU are also Toyota enthusiasts. It makes it hard to swallow the slogan "SOLIDARITY!" when they are not in solidarity with workers in my community. :shrug:

[shanti]

97. understood

:thumbsup:

[sufrommich]

62. I remember. nt

[Horse with no Name]

10. Direct Reaganism.

Used to be, when your neighbor had better than you, you tried to better yourself to get it.
Nowadays, when your neighbor has something better than you, you do your damnedest to get it taken away.
Not realizing that you are lowering the standard in the race to the bottom.

[SmileyRose]

30. RIP Bo Marlow

I know you don't know what I'm talking about.

Bo Marlow was a local who fought like hell for workers all his life. For a time he was a UAW local president. He used the phrase "race to the bottom" with the saddest look. He was a man driven to help people. He died in his sleep in his early 50's. At his funeral his wife said they often fought because he tended to neglect his family in the drive to help out other families.

She said more than once in the middle of her hollering at him to be home more he would get teary eyed. She said he would hold her close and tell her he was just so grateful he made a decent wage with decent benefits. They had 2 decent cars, 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms. He would remind her they were all a little overweight because they could afford too much food and never once in their marriage worried about the utilities being turned off. He just wanted to do everything in his power to have that for everyone. Then he'd make more of an effort to be home more .............. for a while.

[RobinA]

71. I Used To Have

this argument with my cousin. He worked for the at-the-time only non-Union major airline. Bragged about the above union level wages and bennies he got and what a wonderful place it was to work. I kept telling him - It's because of unions that you have all that. Pure and simple, they don't want a union so they are outbidding the union for your labor. Now, of course there's been a lot of union busting in the airlines. His job security is gone, they've taken pay cuts, the place is no longer a great place to work. So much for the proudly non-union shop.

[theophilus]

11. Well, it needs to be tweeted and facebooked because the Media is

in the corporate deep pocket.

[WCGreen]

12. tell them to spend endless hours in the thankless and sometimes dangerous

job of getting an election for Union representation in a particular company...

[KathieG]

13. Yet the same people are perfectly happy with the corrupt obscenely rich CEO's having it all

...because after all, "they worked for it".

[Hydra]

41. All of these people think they're going to join that class

It's just around the corner, you know...with hard work, anyone can be overpaid and above the law, according to them.

Why you'd want to be is beyond me...but that's probably the reason there is such a split in America.

[texshelters]

15. Thanks for the post

I was talking about the same thing this morning. Attacking workers who have health care doesn't make things better for you; it makes getting health care harder for you in the future. I don't think I need to list the accomplishments of unions here: the elimination of child labor, 8 hour work days, safety inspection in the work place, fire exits in the work place, minimum wage, etc. But I wish when a caller on NPR says as I heard Friday, "Why should union workers have it so good" that the host would shoot them down with the facts.

Instead of worker solidarity, which is what unions almost always fight for, these ignoramuses want to bring them down. Bringing down others won't help you a bit.

But the brainwashed members of the public don't get this.

Peace,
Tex Shelters
http://texshelters.wordpress.com/

[WillyT]

19. HUGE K & R !!!

:kick:

[athenasatanjesus]

20. The worst is when they start exaggerating union workers pay

as well as arguing about how easy their job supposedly is.

[felix_numinous]

21. + 1000 Labor laws lift everyone up

they converted the poor INTO the middle class--this is exactly the point being missed by the rationally challenged.

The corporate memes being circulated endlessly try to make the 'middle class' into the 'other'--but it is all of us who are being abused by the too powerful rich overclass--once again. And once again we need unions and labor laws to force arbitration.

Unions balance the scales against corporate abuse, and now is the time for solidarity!

[Fuzz]

22. It's the 'class warfare' they purport to hate.

[Zebedeo]

24. From the title, I thought this thread

was going to be about class envy of the rich.

[blondeatlast]

26. Got into that stupidity last night with w DUnoob--and shut him down

with a simple "a rising tide lifts all boats."

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our first quarter 2011 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

Click here to donate

[former9thward]

36. You are wrong when you say unions have always fought for 'everyone'.

Construction and craft unions have been infamous for excluding minority workers. They would not allow them in their apprenticeship programs. I used to work in the steel industry and minority workers had to go to federal court to get the union to allow them into skilled labor jobs.

[SmileyRose]

38. I can agree that racism in this country leaves it's stain in some unforunate places.

I can only add that unions generally have been out front on equality.

[hugo_from_TN]

95. You are willfully blind.

[tinkerbell41]

52. I agree

I started in 1991, Electricians. They were forced by DOL to let a certain percentage of minorities in. And they still bitch about it. In fact when the enforcement stopped, somewhere around 2000 our Business Manager sent out a letter "crowing" about how "we" didn't have to let them in anymore.
PRICK! What a slap in the face to all of us.
But am I glad I joined? YES. I have had a better life because of it.

[joshcryer]

65. Some unions are extremely nepotistic.

Using "nepotism" generally here.

[TBF]

37. Divide & Conquer - the rich are very good at it. nt

[hfojvt]

39. it might help if you didn't think of them as bozos

Union workers have not always fought for everyone. That might be true of the AFL-CIO in general, (although if I remember the history, the AFL was kinda corrupt and then the CIO came along as a competing organization before it got swallowed up) and it may be true of the activists in the labor movement, but it is not true of every union worker. Not from what I have seen in my lifetime.

[Xicano]

40. Its called negotiating a "Contract".

"I have to pay my own health care premiums. What makes union workers think they deserve full paid healthcare?"
"I'll never be able to retire. What makes union workers think they deserve a pension?"

These idiots really are ass backward aren't they? On one hand they'll sit there and shout things like "free market capitalism", "let the market decide". Then on the other hand cry when employees (the labor half of a business) seek to negotiate the terms & condition of providing their services to the employer.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but, isn't negotiating a contract to get the most out of what the "market will bare" the definition of capitalism and free-trade? If so, then, why are these right-wing idiots crying? Aren't unions only doing what any good free market capitalist would do; getting the most out of what the market will bare for their product/labor?

[Hydra]

42. Their worldview is based on double standards

Examples are too numerous to mention. One of the best ones is how it's capitalized gains and socialized losses.

They just pick the set of rules most favorable to them(or think is favorable to them) and then claim that's how everyone has to do it(except them).

Consistency is is more a Lefty thing. Rule of law and all that. They don't like that sort of thing. They prefer law of the jungle, unless it's them getting eaten.

[Curmudgeoness]

43. For this reason, I cannot understand why union membership

is declining instead of increasing. I just don't get it.

"I don't get paid well", "I don't have benefits", "I don't have a pension", "I got fired for no reason".

So why aren't there MORE unions being formed, and more people joining unions? Makes no sense to me.

[tavalon]

50. I'm not going to be able to explain that

I worked as a nurse in the south in "right to work" states (how Orwellian) and I now work in a union hospital and the difference is night and day. No, I don't have it perfect and frankly, I could run this union far better than the ones who are in control and yet, the pay is better, the benefits better and the pension better. Union = Better. It would be nice if workers could show unity without a middle man, but we can't, so we need unions. Badly.

[Curmudgeoness]

51. The reason workers cannot show unity without unions is

that pesky "at will" issue. You can be fired for an reason at any time, and so can anyone you work with. This keeps everyone too fearful to show unity.

[tavalon]

54. Good point

As a nurse, I've often wished for us to come together and form our own national union. There are a lot of us and we have a very high rating with the public (and rightly so, we're the medical providers most likely to be their fiercest advocates) but we seem stuck in a servant mentality. I've always thought that was our biggest problem but that pesky "at will" thing can't help.

[Curmudgeoness]

60. Yes, nurses like you are awesome. Thanks for the work

you do. I know how much nurses do and care for the patients. My sister is a nurse and know what she puts into her work. I think a lot of nurses are brow-beaten by the doctors, who treat them like they are servants instead of professionals. At least, this is one of the complaints I hear from my sis. You do need a national union.

[dana_b]

82. I have seen that a couple of the unions

actually "war" with each other. For instance there was a union in the midwest (sorry, I don't remember who) that was very irritated with CNA for trying to get into their market, so to speak. Too bad they couldn't join forces instead. That would make the it very difficult for those non union hospitals to fight.

I did love CNA, however, when I was a member. It really helped with our staffing and ratios.

[tavalon]

84. CNA is the best nurses union in the nation

In slightly saltier words, they kick ass and take names.

[Cowpunk]

66. The reason is the Walmart Effect

Nonunion businesses outcompete them on price. Consumers fail to see the downside of buying the cheapest goods and services they can find. We are all guilty of busting the unions in this way.

[Curmudgeoness]

81. This does not answer the underlying question.

The question: Why is union membership declining? So why aren't Walmart employees joining unions as well as the untold numbers of other employees in other nonunion businesses. They are upset that they are underpaid and have no benefits, but they are bashing unions instead of joining them. I am dumbfounded.

[wickerwoman]

89. Walmart employees are fired for engaging in union activity.

Walmart has one of the worst histories of labor relations on record.

And Walmart is one of those places where if you're working there it's because you *need* to work there. They know they have their boot on the throats of their employees and they exploit it mercilessly.

Better to go after companies that union bust and tighten regulations that protect workers than to expect poor, overworked, exhausted and exploited people to organize themselves.

[Nevernose]

85. Another reason is that unions typically support Democrats

Another teacher couple we're friends with, the husband adamantly refuses to support the local teacher's union in anything, because he's a Republican and the union supports Dems 99% of the time. I've tried explaining to him that they don't support Democrats per se, but rather the politicians who support workers and education are usually Democrats, but he just can't get beyond "I'm a Republican!"

Remember when the carpenters union shamelessly (and totally illogically) endorsed Bush? It was a transparent appeal to their mostly white, mostly male audience to boost membership and support, despite the fact that it was bad for them in the long run.

[Curmudgeoness]

86. Your argument makes perfect sense to me.

But I know just what you mean. Some people have no sense.

[Pab Sungenis]

47. Union members pay for their insurance, too.

If it's through the union, it's one of the things they pay dues for. If it's through the employer (government) there's usually some withholding as well. It's not for free.

[tavalon]

49. There are two distinct mindsets that often correlate with Democratic and Republican

Democrat: I am my brothers keeper and we can all rise together.

Republican: I got mine so fuck you.

[Egalitariat]

53. It's a lot easier to explain the conundrum when the union employees are paid with private dollars

that were earned in a competitive environment.

The questions you posed are tougher to answer when they guy that's asking them is paying for his own shitty retirement with his 401K dollars, and also paying for someone else's guaranteed pension retirement with his tax dollars.

Not saying it's right, but I get why some folks disparage the concept.

[Ikonoklast]

56. The real question those people should ask themselves is,

"Why don't I try to organize my fellow employees and get a better deal from our employer than this crappy retirement?"

Instead, they'd rather drag everyone down to their level.


This actually has very little to do with pensions, or pay, and everything to do with breaking the back of Labor in this country, and the Democratic Party along with it.

Walker ruined his state's budget by giving away tax breaks to millionaires and businesses, then turns around to blame the Unions for his thievery of state tax money.

[RobinA]

72. Maybe It's Me,

but when I got laid off a second time, was in about my third crappy 401k, and was paying for private health insurance because the plan through my job was so lousy I was afraid it would kill me, I looked around and asked myself, Who doesn't have to worry quite so much about this stuff? And it came to me - Union Worker! So I says to myself (no, not How can I destroy that Union Worker so his deal is as crappy as mine?) I says, Can I possibly get me one of those union jobs? Well, gee, Yes I can. So now I'm Union Worker and have a little better deal (albeit one that is declining rapidly) in some ways than I did before.

Now everybody can't do this, of course, but some people can. And if more people would then more people could, because unions could maybe, just maybe, regain some strength. It's really just good old-fashioned capitalism. And a damn sight better than taking down Union Man because he isn't as bad off as some people without a union. And it sure beats sittin' at home voting to make sure the high income guys aren't payin' too much in taxes because, Hey, this time next year I'm prolly going to be a millionaire like Donald Trump!

[Hannah Bell]

55. "deserve". as soon as you start talking about who does & doesn't deserve healthcare,

you're well down the road to perdition.

all people deserve healthcare. and taking it away from someone doesn't make it more available to those without it. rather the opposite.

[jillan]

57. These are the same bozos that are probably against "Obamacare".

They don't want people to have it better than they do, but who cares if people have it alot worse than they do.

ughhhhhh!

[whathehell]

58. Someone should just tell them that if they want it as good as union workers..

They should join, or form, a union of their own!

[newtothegame]

63. This post is ironic given the usual angry anti-wealth sentiment here. nt

[Aerows]

70. There is nothing wrong with wealth

but there is something definitely wrong with impoverishing others and making them suffer to obtain it.

[RobinA]

73. I Think We're Talking

about a living wage and benefits, not wealth.

[Aerows]

68. Conservatives/Authoritarians do not care

If they live in a grass hut without plumbing or electricity as long as someone they dislike doesn't have a hut at all. That's the way they think.

They are subservient in mindset, and are satisfied if they can rant at someone lower on the totem pole than themselves.

[Enthusiast]

74. K&R We allowed the far right wing

in this nation to define labor unions for decades. Just like they defined 'liberals'. This nation has been under the influence of a massive decades long disinformation campaign. Either we mount an equal and opposite effort or we are done.

[rainbow4321]

77. Ah, the "grass looks greener over there and I am bitter" crowd

When I worked as a per diem agency nurse for local hospitals I would usually shut these kind of people up this way:

If you think that we per diem nurses have it so great, here is my agency's information, call them and sign up.

In return, "the complaining-about-per-diem-nurses" staff nurses would say "oh, no, I can't/don't want to be a per diem agency nurse...I need my full time benefits, and the steadiness of my hours, and I don't like change or adjusting, I just want to stay on my unit only, and..and..and"
They would go on them to list all the benefits that they got as a full time staff member that we, as per diem agency nurses didn't get.

Of course, they neglected to acknowledge all those bennies as they would stand around and bitch that we made more per hourly than they did..which of course, they would use to justify dumping crappy patient loads on us. I would hear greatly exaggerated hourly rates that got higher and higher with each new conversation I overheard, sometimes they would falsely jack up our runmored hourly rate by $20 dollars more than what we really made...just because it added to the inflammatory conversation they were having.

I would wait til they started to list off their bennies before going "you do what you do for a reason, and I do what I do for a reason...add up those bennies that you just listed off and we make basically the same amount of money in the end".

[Chris_Texas]

78. Unions are not fighting for everyone

And, from my experiences as a member of two of them, they are not even necessarily fighting for their own member. The two I was a member of might as well have been knowns as "Owners and Management #1" as that's who they actually represented.

Here's a thought: if unions ACTUALLY were fighting for the common working man you would not need to tell people this. They would be able to see it for themselves. They would probably even join. That fewer than 10% of all workers are union, and most of those are public employees, really aught to tell you something.

[Chris_Texas]

79. Unions are not fighting for everyone

And, from my experiences as a member of two of them, they are not even necessarily fighting for their own member. The two I was a member of might as well have been knowns as "Owners and Management #1" as that's who they actually represented.

Here's a thought: if unions ACTUALLY were fighting for the common working man you would not need to tell people this. They would be able to see it for themselves. They would probably even join. That fewer than 10% of all workers are union, and most of those are public employees, really aught to tell you something.

[newspeak]

83. If you can find it, read "confessions of a union buster"

It's out of print, might be able to find a used copy. The author was a union buster for some major corporations--one thing that stuck in my mind that he said, some unions have had mob connections, but there is no comparison of what union heads have done and corporations--breaking up families, intimidation, threats and even murder. You have no idea how far some corporations will go to keep workers from organizing.

Looking in our own history, why unions were created, those who fought, sacrificed and lost their lives for workers safety and a decent wage. And, so the robber barons have fought back with the aid of the corporate media and pro-corporate government. During the depression FDR sent troops to actually protect the steelworkers from the Pinkertons and local police.

The very things workers take for granted today are in place because of unions. If big business breaks every union in this country, where do you think the workers will be? Since profit is their golden calf, how long do you think that these corporations for a buck further weaken safety standards, decrease wages and demand you work longer hours with maybe one day off a week and hey, if you can no longer afford education anymore, I'm sure they can include the kiddies in labor. Now that's what it was like a hundred years ago in this country, and my relatives didn't sacrifice to go back to hell for many and greed heaven for a few.

[joeunderdog]

90. The Walmart family closed its only store which successfully unionized.

It would threaten their status as 4 of the 10 wealthiest people on the planet. Wouldn't want that, would we? Not when the government can pay for the health insurance of their poverty-stricken workforce.

[joeunderdog]

88. Er...what exactly does it tell YOU?

[joeunderdog]

87. Mitt Romney once asked during a Gov run,

"Why should the State Workers get health insurance and retirement when the local bank teller can't?"

Seriously.

[City of Mills]

94. Ugh, one of my first DU posts was about Romney screwing my union

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2650934&mesg_id=2655615

[HEyHEY]

92. Suddenly they aren't so capitalistic are they?

What these assholes don't realize is that unionizing is a brilliant for of capitalism. It's a business agreement between workers to make money. "You want our services, pay us this much."

It's no different than contracting any other service, and the legislation that allows for it is just the same as any other legislation that regulates business as far as I'm concerned. These laws are in place to allow level playing fields.

If non-union workers have a problem with unions getting better deals than them, "Pull up your bootstraps" and get a union job or organize instead of trying to tear down what others have.