Learn about prison procedures for someone on suicide watch.

[MineralMan]

It's eye-opening. The standard practices seem pretty brutal. Perhaps Manning is on suicide watch. I do not know, but his current treatment would seem to argue that he is. It's pretty standard stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_watch

[Webster Green]

1. It's fairly obvious that they're using it as an excuse to treat him badly.

"Standard stuff" doesn't make it any more palatable to me.

Torture is standard stuff these days. That doesn't make it right.

[MineralMan]

3. Many people agree with you.

[MineralMan]

2. More: CNN has retracted its story that said the military was

investigating whether the Quantico Brig Commander acted outside of his authority in putting Manning on suicide watch. Apparently, the Brig Commander has full authority to do so:

http://www.thewrap.com/tv/column-post/cnn-retracts-story-wikileaks-suspect-suicide-watch-investigation-24237

From the article:

""The brig commander has the ultimate responsibility to determine what status a detainee is given," the story quoted Lt. Brian Villiard as saying. "He based the decision on information from psychological professionals, the medical staff and the Marine guards who are interacting with him around the clock. The commander was absolutely within his right. Not just his right, his responsibility."

Always two sides to things, it seems. I'd prefer than Manning not die by his own hand, frankly. If he is truly suicidal, then the suicide watch procedure is being followed, inhumane as it seems. I am not there, nor am I qualified to determine whether someone is a suicide risk, even if were there.

[Tsiyu]

20. I think the brig commander is a female

just fyi

As to this being standard procedure, we need to re-assess a lot of our "standard" procedure when it comes to all incarcerated individuals.

Our "humane" treatment of prisoners - or at least, our presumed humanity - is what we have always bragged about; that we are not bloodthirsty thugs, we are law-abiding, humane and we treat others as we would wish to be treated. I want us to actually be what we brag that we are.

Whether it is Manning or any other prisoner, we must continue to have access and we must continue to monitor our nation's uses of what we ourselves have defined as torture and cruel and unusual punishment.

[MineralMan]

4. One last note: None of this is a secret. It's public knowledge, so

there doesn't appear to be a cover-up of any kind.

[Obamanaut]

5. And the subject lines in two other threads should not be making stuff up. Both

state that Manning was made to stand in front of his cell for seven hours, and in both threads (in the OP in one of them) we find that this just isn't so.

[MineralMan]

6. I doubt that was deliberate. More likely it was a matter of

a poor understanding of the source information and poor use of language. It happens here, and elsewhere, all the time. That's why every post here needs to be checked with the original source and other sources, to get the entire story.

Suicide watch in military jails and prisons is not a pleasant thing for the person who is classified as a security risk. It's not very nice in civilian jails and prisons either. The goal is to prevent suicide by every means possible. That's a difficult thing to do, and appears very inhumane. However, the alternative, in many cases, is that the person manages to commit suicide, and that's not acceptable, either, under the law.

My own opinion of the matter differs from the standard treatment, but my opinion about suicide also differs from the norm.

[Obamanaut]

7. Perhaps. Here are the links to the other two posts, and an excerpt from each

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=565987&mesg_id=566114

“…Manning then walked back to his bed, and spent the next seven hours…”

And here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=555341&mesg_id=555341

“…He remained in his cell, naked, for the next seven hours…”

Subject line on the OP of both threads are nearly identical, and both wrong.

[MineralMan]

8. I saw those threads. I try very hard to believe that nobody would

manipulate a thread title to make a point. I try very hard.

[TBF]

9. Interesting -

I worked in a psych hospital right out of college and at that facility suicide watch required removal of obvious dangerous items, and constant monitoring (someone in the room 24/7). It's certainly possible that military procedures would be more extreme.

[reorg]

10. we only did what we were told to do

is what every single defendent in the Auschwitz trials said. They simply followed procedure, pretty standard stuff.

Oh yes, these practices SEEM brutal. And maybe they are.

[MineralMan]

11. PFC Manning is in the Brig for one of the most serious crimes

that can be committed - releasing classified information to a foreign citizen. Now, you may think what he did was justified, and perhaps it was, but it remains a very serious crime. If he is convicted, he will spend the rest of his life in prison.

The deal is that such a release of classified information is a felony, and the UCMJ treats it as a crime just sort of treason.

So, what would you have the military do? Release him because some people thing all information should be unclassified? Really? That's not going to happen. PFC Manning knew the regulations. Of that I am certain. When I was in the USAF, I handled lots of classified materials. Before I was allowed to do that, I had to sign a paper saying that I understood the laws regarding that information and that I understood the penalties for breaking that law. PFC Manning signed a similar paper.

Now, he has not been convicted of that crime, so he is considered innocent until proven guilty. In the meantime, he has not been granted bail, and is imprisoned pending charges and trial. Literally tens of thousands of people are in the same situation, in jail pending trial.

I don't know PFC Manning. Apparently the people who are holding him consider him a suicide risk. That's based, from what I understand, on evaluation by psychologists, etc. So, he is on suicide watch. Suicide watch rules are designed to remove any possibility that the person can commit suicide. The military does it in about the same way civilian jails do it. Everything that could be used to commit suicide is taken away from the prisoner. It is a harsh business.

Personally, I believe that such should not occur, and that the person contemplating suicide should be counseled. If the person commits suicide, despite that, then it is that person's choice. That is not how things are handled, and I am not in charge.

What will happen? I have no idea. I am not there. I have not talked to the people who have evaluated Manning. I have not talked to the brig commander who decided that he was a suicide risk. I assume you are in exactly the same position.

1. Manning is accused of a crime that is only one step from treason.
2. He is in custody without bail.
3. He has been judged to be a suicide risk.
4. Steps have been taken to prevent suicide.
5. You and I know nothing about the details of any of this.


I will wait and see what happens. In the meantime, none of us knows the entire story here, but serious laws have been violated. You may not agree with those laws, but that is irrelevant to the proceedings. Time will tell the story.

[EFerrari]

18. As if it mattered a flying f#ck what the charges are.

Punitive pre-trial detention is illegal, has nothing to do with any "suicide watch" and is not justified by the severity of his charges.

You can wait and see all you want. Details are in fact available both from his lawyer and from the Pentagon and they do not show that forced nudity is part of some effort to protect him from suicide. His lawyer has posted on the situation three times at least and the Pentagon has made at least that many statements.

There has no medical change in his condition, and there is no medical change that could possibly warrant this abuse.

[Tsiyu]

22. "Innocent until proven guilty" is as useless a principle of jurisprudence

as the Geneva Conventions are useless as concepts once agreed upon by the world as honorable and lawful.

When did we decide our own binding rules did not bind us?

[MineralMan]

25. Perhaps you have a poor understanding of military criminal law.

It differs in many ways from civilian criminal law. The crime that is in play here would not warrant bail under the UCMJ. The military handles suicide prevention in their jails and prisons somewhat differently than civilians do. Manning is subject to the UCMJ, not civilian law. He has an attorney, who is pursuing things in the military system, under which Manning is charged. There is no real option available.

If Manning is convicted of transmitting classified information to another person not authorized to receive it, the penalties are going to be very harsh, indeed. It isn't a prank. It isn't a misdemeanor. It's one of the most serious charges that can be brought against a person serving in the military. Opinions from people who think his actions were justified have no bearing on the matter. Manning knew the penalties, and apparently handed off that information despite those penalties. Or so the charges are.

I'm neither defending the military nor suggesting that Manning's treatment is appropriate. I'm explaining things and offering information. The UCMJ and military criminal proceedings are what they are. Don't expect much to change.

[leftstreet]

12. I'd rather 'learn' which fuckstick decided to put him on suicide watch

:grr:

[MineralMan]

14. It was the Brig Commander. Her name has appeared in most of

the news stories. That's who. Take it up with her. It sure as hell wasn't me.

Her name is Chief Warrant Officer 2 Denise Barnes. You can reach the Quantico brig commander at:

COMMANDING OFFICER [phone]

What more information can I provide for you? I can look up any information you may need. It's all available on Google.

[AlabamaLibrul]

13. Yes, he is on suicide watch. In fact this has been the official word since day one.

Suicide watch is just slang for "we're breaking the Geneva Conventions, and what are you gonna do about it?"

[MineralMan]

15. That is probably your opinion, unless you are personally

knowledgeable about the people and circumstances. Are you? If not, then you have an opinion, not information. So do I. We are equal.

[AlabamaLibrul]

16. The topic/subject of my post is fact, the message is my opinion.

Do you have an actual point, or just trying to stir shit up?

[EFerrari]

17. The forced nudity is not the result of any doctor's orders.

The Pentagon has admitted that. But your translation is likely right, in any case.

[The Straight Story]

19. When I was a deputy and involved in suicide watches, here was our procedure:

Check in on the person every 15 minutes or so (we varied it, might be every 3 minutes, then wait 10 and go back, etc - mix it up). Make sure they did not have anything to kill themselves with (yes, they could hang themselves with their pants, or bed sheets - which is why we had time limits to check on them).

I NEVER, when I was a deputy handling suicide watches, had anyone stand naked outside of their cell. It was not needed if we did our job correctly.

[donheld]

21. There is NO excuse

[snot]

23. Kids, pls get the facts.

Yes, he's on suicide watch, despite the military's own doctors reporting repeatedly that it's unnecessary and should be discontinued.

For lots more details, go to http://www.thenation.com/blog/159043/wikileaks-news-views-blog-special-weekend-edition , search the page for Manning, and click on the links.
Manning's own lawyer is an excellent source for accurate info about both the facts and the applicable law; he has a blog, and one of those links takes you there.

[sabrina 1]

24. The prison psychiatirst was against putting him on suicide

watch. The whole thing is a lie, and it must be and hopefully with enough pressure, WILL be investigated.

I cannot believe that there are democrats who would even think of defending the treatment of this soldier.

I am very happy to see that at least one real progressive democratic congressman has spoken out against this despicable behavior and now hopefully others will also.

Sometimes I fully understand how Germany happened. As one historian who was there during the whole process said 'it happened incrementally, you felt uncomfortable about things but you didn't say anything, hoping that this would be it, that it wouldn't get worse. And some people would argue that it wasn't really that bad and you would give in, think well, maybe they are right. And when the next thing happened, you waited for someone else to say something, and it went on like this until it was too late, until things were out of control and you wished you had said something way back when you first had a feeling that something was not right'.

Thank god nearly every decent person I have spoken to, IN the military, family members, and friends who have served, are absolutely appalled by what is being done to this soldier. And not all of them support what he did, but the DO support the Constitution they swore to defend and protect.

This is NOT the America I and everyone I know, remember.

This is BUSH'S America and it is useless to try to justify it in any way. It is simply in violation of everything this country claims to stand for.

Support is gathering now from all over the world for Manning. And it will continue to grow the more he is mistreated. So all they are doing is drawing attention to a man who is a true hero who otherwise, if they were smart, might have been unknown. So in a way, they are doing him a favor.