Why are women constantly trying to justify having had an abortion?

[cali]

One story more dire and heartbreaking than another. Well, my story isn't heartbreaking. I wasn't in dire circumstances. I didn't become pregnant because I was raped or abused. I got pregnant because my boyfriend and I were careless. I wasn't ready for a baby. I didn't want to bear a child and give it up for adoption. I had an abortion. I did not feel guilty then. I do not feel guilty now. It was legal. It was my business.

Women should not feel they owe anyone an explanation as to why they had a legal medical procedure.

[Brickbat]

1. K&R.

[RedCloud]

222. Natural abortions and fetal re-absorptions far outnumber human induced

Pretty much says if there is a Grand Wazoo that coordinates life, that wazoo is the #1 abortionist and also an egg and sperm waster,

[XanaDUer]

2. +1

nt.

[WatsonT]

3. I tend to agree

it doesn't really matter what the motivation is.

[dionysus]

4. +1

[NeedleCast]

5. K&R

[haikugal]

6. Me Too...

the same and as you said it's no ones business and because of that 'we' have been silent about it. I guess it's time to stand up before the women who are coming after us loose their rights to ALL effective birth control to the religious whining authoritarians who think they have the right to project their 'values' on everyone.

[JustAnotherGen]

7. Another rec

It is what it is - it was what it was . . . good, bad, indifferent.

[HopeHoops]

8. K&R

[el_bryanto]

9. Damnit! People should feel the way I tell them to feel! End of Story!

Life usually doesn't work that way.

Bryant

[ima_sinnic]

215. you didn't read the OP

she's saying, she doesn't owe you or anybody an explanation, and neither do I.

[Ilsa]

10. I think the point many are trying to make

is that every situation is different. Everything from "there was no assistance available to me back then" to medical reasons. They want people to understand that it is always a personal decision, with individual circumstances that are carefully weighed. There is no single test that a pregnant woman should have to meet to obtain the medical care she needs.

One story that I thought was interesting was from the inside of an abortion clinic where the workers say that some of the most strident ant-choice protestors have come in for an abortion. They'll even harass others patients on the way out the door, but claim, "my situation was different."

[queenjane]

11. K&R! (n/t)

[rfranklin]

12. You are absolutely right...they have no right to police your womb...

and it was your business.

I see the anti-abortion people as another aspect of the right wingers' need to make everyone conform to their world view. They suffer cognitive dissonance when face with the beliefs of others that contradict them. To attain equilibrium they must control everyone else in their world. Beliefs must be the same. Skin color must be the same. Behavior must be the same. All differences must be eradicated. That's why they talk so often about having to kill liberals.

What I am saying is that conservatism is basically a mental illness.

[poverlay]

13. K&R. - Thank You!

Well said.

[Lars39]

14. Reframe: Why don't anti-choicers view women as capable of making

a rational decision for themselves? They literally don't view women's wants and needs as existing. Misogyny at its finest. :eyes:
Thank you for speaking out, Cali. :hug:

[Solly Mack]

15. I agree. We don't have to explain ourselves or justify our choices to anyone.

That said, a woman's story - the story, not as a justification but as that woman's story - serves a purpose. They help tell why abortion is a medical procedure that must be available to ALL women.

Of course, we shouldn't ever have to explain to anyone why a medical procedure should be available to women.

But a woman need never be apologetic or hesitant about having had an abortion. It's her life, her right, her body. Own it.

[lyonn]

116. You and Cali make me proud to be a Democrat

Real thinking people. I have watched way too much politics lately and the insanity that the repubs babble is fact free. The masses act like it makes sense.........

[Nye Bevan]

16. Kind of ironic. You start a thread criticizing other women for sharing their abortion stories.

And then you share *your* abortion story.

[cali]

18. uh, grab a clue. let me make this perfectly clear

to those who fail to grasp the obvious- such as you. I wasn't criticizing anyone for sharing their abortion stories, dear. I was criticizing the culture that makes women feel like shit for having an abortion. duh.

[HappyMe]

23. I think that the only one who can make a woman

feel like shit about having an abortion, is the woman herself.

[ehrnst]

28. There are others that are willing to degrade and lie to help that along. (nt)

[Horse with no Name]

42. You would be wrong

How about you traipse through a battlefield of crazed idiots who want you and your doctor dead and then come back to me with that moronic statement.

[HappyMe]

47. According to other responses here

it's an easy enough decision. You are a strong, independent woman exercising her right to a legal procedure. You are steadfast in your beliefs.
Why would some crazed idiots who want to set women back 50 years bother you?

[Horse with no Name]

50. Me? Personally?

I'd knock the shit out of anyone that touched me or attempted to stop me. Not all women are as bold as I am.

But WHY should women be subject to fanaticism and violence over legal decisions? Why do YOU think that is okay?

[HappyMe]

78. I never said that it was okay.

The point I am trying to make is that other people's beliefs, opinions or protest signs shouldn't make anyone feel bad about themselves. It's YOUR body, YOUR decision. Why let external bullshit make you feel bad.


I walked right past the shouting people with the signs into the clinic. I did not look right or left. I knew in my heart & gut that this was the right thing for me to do. I was too damn young to have a child. Those people outside did not bother me then. A few years later I accompanied my friend to the clinic. My friend just rolled her eyes when we got inside. I don't feel guilty or haunted or like a murderer.


This never was, nor will it ever be an easy issue. It's not fair that it is that way, it's not right that it's that way. The fanaticism on the other side is wrong. According to the Constitution both sides have the right to their opinion. I personally think that their fanaticism and craziness dilutes their message. I think that you should be able to just walk right in, no questions asked. Until that time, looking scared, worried, shedding tears or whatever when you walk past, plays right into their hands. You know that they might be outside the clinic before you leave the house. Put on your game face. Your body, your decision, your right.

:shrug: I'm just a moron that fell off of a turnip truck.

[Carni]

176. Really sarcastic

Kudos (or dittos whatever the case may be)

[uppityperson]

64. "Why would some crazed idiots who want to set women back 50 years bother you?" wtf?

Because they want to set women back 50 yrs. Is this a trick question?

[MedicalAdmin]

123. re: Why would some crazed idiots ... bother you?

Because a lot of them are armed and a high percentage of them are completely off their rockers.

Crazed? check
Armed? check

Response? ambivalent at best, scared would be normal, and paranoid is not out of line.

[Chorophyll]

145. Enjoy your brief stay at DU, HappyYou.

:eyes:

[HERVEPA]

182. As a volunteer clinic escort, I can certainly see many women

maybe not as strong or as well educated or fluent in the language the anti's are hollering in feeling very upset and abused and unsettled.
For many women, whether because of religious or philosophical or ethical reasons it is not an easy decision anyhow.

[musette_sf]

246. Because I should not be harassed, stalked,

proselytized, threatened, intimidated, accosted by an organized group of complete strangers, or in any other way interfered with, for GOING TO THE DOCTOR.

If the Phelpses got in people's faces anywhere remotely NEAR the hideous gauntlet that female reproductive health patients have to face to GO TO THE DOCTOR, I'm not so sure that SCOTUS would have decided that that particular group of thugs should have their "free speech" protected.

Which does make me wonder... did the conservative factions of the SCOTUS decide that the Phelpses actions were "free speech" NOT because they actually thought it was "free speech", but because to decide otherwise would have set a precedent to legally STOP harassment and intimidation of patients at reproductive health care facilities?

[Pacifist Patriot]

51. Then you just fell off the turnip truck.

[haele]

150. No, had a co-worker almost die instead of "crossing the line" to get to a Planned Parenthood

for any of her pre-natal screenings or visits. The hate alone that those people radiated were enough to make her too scared to go there. By the time the rest of us talked her into going and went with her to shield her from those damn fanatics who assumed she was there to abort, she had developed some sort of sepsis, and the baby had died - and she almost died too.

Not every woman is emotionally strong and confident enough to go all the way through with a decision like that by herself.

I'm not saying that anyone should "convince" a woman to have an abortion, but once she's made the decision, many women still need emotional support as they go through with the procedure and can be pressured into just giving up if doing the right thing for her and any future children she may want to have is now too stressful and has to wait on a lot of hoops.

"Do you really want to do this, huh?" "After all, it's a baaaybeeee" "Do you really want to murder your baby?" Constantly. Strangers, well-meaning family or acquaintances badgering, lying - "I'll help you out if you change your mind...I love babies"

Day in, Day out... and the longer she has to has to wait for her procedure after making that decision, the stronger those voices, the stronger the outside disapproval over her initial, thought out choice.

Anyone who says abortion is an easy decision, or one made lightly, is either ignorant or malicious.

I'm old. I've seen women go through this choice many times over the years, even before. I've also seen the dysfunctional, self-hating, miserable results of women who abuse and yell at their child or children - especially the two acquaintances with serious issues who claimed their mothers would regularly tell them "I should have gone through with the abortion."...
Yeah, the fetus has the potential to become a person. But as one woman told me - "it wouldn't have mattered to me very much what happened until I was actually able to survive outside the womb". And she would have rather been born to a family that wanted her instead of seeing her as a shameful burden and a punching bag.

Haele

[MedicalAdmin]

240. Thanks for posting this. THis is a story that needs to be heard.

Wisdom and bag full o' cats. You must be irish.

[spooked911]

180. wow, how wrong can someone be?

good job

[swimboy]

187. Oh, brother.

:eyes:

[SylviaD]

208. The reasons why a woman might feel like "shit" about having an aborion

are many.

Sorry to say, you have to be a woman to understand some of them.

[SemperEadem]

210. spoken like someone without a uterus

you won't understand what you can't understand and you can't understand what you won't understand, boo.

[MedicalAdmin]

241. I'm not sure but I think #23 was trying to say something like this.

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."
-- Eleanor Roosevelt, 'This Is My Story,' 1937


I could be wrong but I agree with Eleanor about that. I think she was talking about self esteem. And yes, I'm giving #23 the benefit of the doubt.

[Action]

227. Never forget

It's no ones business.

[classof56]

17. I agree with you.

I've known several women who've had abortions, all for different reasons. The bottom line was, it was their decision, their business. I am just glad the procedure is legal and they were able to have it done safely. For the sake of women everywhere, I hope it stays that way.

[Bandit]

19. Why is it anyone's business?

:shrug:

[Wind Dancer]

20. Wish I could recommend this hundreds of times.

It's a personal choice and nobody's business. I agree with you completely.

[TorchTheWitch]

21. I'm so sick of people even here saying it's always such a

heartbreaking decision. No the fuck it isn't always that way, nor should it be. Frankly, I think that those women who find it so heartbreaking have been duped by a lifetime of being beat over the head that they're evil to consider abortion and if they have one they're a sick person for not feeling guilty and bad about it.

I'm also sick to death of people that think that women don't ever think about what they would do about an unwanted pregnancy until one happens. For me, the decision has always been made... I have never wanted to be pregnant and still don't. To think that women don't CONSTANTLY think about what they would do in such a situation is ludicrious.

I'll be damned if I'm supposed to feel guilty or evil for the decision to abort should the need ever arise, and I'm not so stupid that I never considered all this from the moment I first decided to have sex.

[el_bryanto]

26. I'm a male so I know i'm not really supposed to have an opinion on this

but, i'm adopted (born 828 days before Roe V. Wade was decided, my brother is adopted as well), so it's hard for me not to think that the decision to have an abortion should matter. I support legal abortion, to make it clear.

[Horse with no Name]

48. I don't remember being born, I won't remember dying

If your mom was able to have an abortion and did--it wouldn't have affected YOU.

That is not to say that your family/friends aren't glad you are here--that is an entirely different subject.

YOU are a product of the environment that you were raised in and your life experiences as well as some genetics thrown in. At the time and place that your Mother could make the decision to abort or not to abort, you were simply a sac of cells.

A sac of cells is NOT a person. It does not think, it does not reason, it does not function outside of the host. If the woman decides to rid herself of this, the sac of cells knows no difference. The universe remains unaffected by her medical decision.

Abortion is LEGAL and should remain so.

I sense some guilt mixed with relief that your Mom couldn't make a legal decision regarding an abortion. I GET that. I really do.

But that shouldn't change the dialogue.

[el_bryanto]

52. What exactly should my role in the dialogue be?

I think Abortion should be legal.

I think people should choose not to have abortions as much as possible (either by using protection, or by having the baby and giving it up for adoption, if they aren't in a position to raise it).

Obviously since I favor abortions remaining legal, I do not expect people to abide by my desires.

I also don't feel it's appropriate to insert myself into any individual woman's decision to have an abortion (unless she asked me my opinion of course).

How much of that is allowed as part of the dialogue?

Bryant

[Horse with no Name]

56. If your partner ASKS for your opinion

then that is your role in the dialogue.

I think you have the right idea--I wasn't dissing your experiences because I really DO get it.

[TorchTheWitch]

57. you don't HAVE a fucking role in the "dialogue"!

That's the whole POINT! There shouldn't BE any "dialogue" about abortion because it's a personal and private medical decision to be made only by the pregnant woman. Whether or not a woman choses to have an abortion is no more anyone else's fucking business than it's anyone's fucking business whether or not you decide you want a vastectomy or a nose job or cancer treatment or any other private personal medical decisions you're entitled to make.

[el_bryanto]

58. Of course. I apologize for not agreeing with you. And for speaking at all. n/t

[hfojvt]

107. too bad then about that whole pesky democracy thingy

How many other issues are that should be decided by fiat without having a dialogue?

Let me guess, you think the state should pay for abortions for those unable to afford one.

Is there any dialogue allowed on that?

[WatsonT]

113. Wow

that was a bit of an overreaction.

Dialogue means exactly that: talking.

It doesn't have any power to force anything on anyone.

I can't think of any subject that people should be forbidden to hold an opinion on.

[uppityperson]

120. I wonder how you could enforce "no opinion" rule.

Freedom of thought? Naw. That's just an opinion and you are forbidden from having an opinion.

[WatsonT]

121. I think we currently lack the technology to make this dream a reality

but one day, no doubt we will be able to control what people are allowed to think.

[uppityperson]

233. Would you like to know my opinion about someone getting an abortion?

A friend who told me, or one of the DUers who has said they have, or someone who came into the clinic I worked at? I am glad that they were able to get a safe hygienic abortion. That is my opinion.

[WatsonT]

238. Sounds fine to me

I wasn't arguing against abortions (hell I think they should be completely government funded for those who can't afford them).

I was arguing against the notion that people who aren't pregnant are not *allowed* to have, let alone publicly express, and opinion on the subject.

[MedicalAdmin]

128. THis is just my opinion, but...

if I was to decide to have a vasectomy I would discuss that with my partner first as any medical decision I make will have an effect on a relationship that I value above all others.

I would encourage my wife to have a similar conversation with me. If she was adamant about having an abortion my response would be simple; how can I help?

[TroglodyteScholar]

153. Overkill.

Men play a role in making babies, too. There's nothing to say a man who is supportive of his mate shouldn't feel comfortable to engage in a dialogue. That's much different from letting the government or *anyone* tell a pregnant woman what she is and is not allowed to do. So equating a partner's interest in the matter with the government's (unwarranted) interest is misguided at best and, at worst, intellectually dishonest.

I, like the man you attacked above, am a supporter of abortion rights. I do, however, have every right to hold my own opinions on promoting contraception, adoption, etc, all based on the actual facts of any individual situation. I MUST defer to the judgment of my female partner (or any pregnant female), but this does not mean that I must feel obligated not to have my own views on the subject.

It's amazing to me the bigoted views some Democrats can justify to themselves.

[mwooldri]

172. You need to wash your mouth out with soap and water.

However you have a *mostly* valid point.

Your position is 100% valid for single people. Committed couples, in a relationship something resembling what they call marriage in our society (I'll call it marriage for want of a better word), need to COMMUNICATE and have a DIALOGUE on EVERYTHING. No exceptions, not even on medical decisions. The communication can be on small things like what to eat, what to wear... or bigger ones... where to buy a house, where to move, and more. Secrets kill marriages. Open, honest communication helps marriage. No dialogue is the worst thing a marriage can have.

Therefore while I will agree with you that the final decision on abortion is to be taken on the woman, the dynamics are different in marriage. The man should be informed of the decision, get to have his two cents in about his feelings on the matter, and reaffirm to his spouse that whether he agrees or not with her decision that he will be there and support her no matter what. Same thing about if a man decides a vasectomy is right. Ideally, this conversation is had early on in the marriage so it is known before the subject is even encountered upon.

Otherwise outside of "marriage" I can agree with you on your potty mouth answer, and it is a decision for the individual alone what to do.

[uppityperson]

179. Are you talking legally mandated "should", or it is positive for couples to communicate "should"?

[mwooldri]

185. IANAL. nt

[uppityperson]

188. So, you are giving your opinion. What do you think? What do you mean?

"Committed couples, in a relationship something resembling what they call marriage in our society (I'll call it marriage for want of a better word), need to COMMUNICATE and have a DIALOGUE on EVERYTHING. No exceptions, not even on medical decisions."

Do you mean legally mandated or it is positive for couples to communicate "should", "need to communicate...no exceptions".

[mwooldri]

203. Definitely not legally mandated (hence IANAL acronym).

I mean the latter - it's positive for couples to communicate - the more the better, and no subject should be taboo.

Secrets help destroy "marriage", whereas open honest communication helps build it. Secrets come out at some point and if they come out early then any damage is minimised.

[uppityperson]

231. Thank you.. Too many think it should be legally mandated and try to get bills saying such

Hence the parental and spousal notification bs.

[SemperEadem]

211. she doesn't need to wash anything out with soap and water

act like an adult and deal with it. This isn't preschool here.

[mwooldri]

237. Using vulgar language in the way that TorchTheWitch used ...

... is counterproductive to the discussion. Admittedly she "got me" with her posting, I get her message but seriously what happened to a little bit of civility?

Yep you "got me" too. Besides I have dealt with it in that original post by basically stating in an aggressive and blunt way that vulgar language does not help, even though I agree with her 99%.

EOM, peace out.

[Lars39]

239. Then you seriously do not understand the justifiable anger women

feel because a basic right is constantly being attacked.

[mwooldri]

250. We are obviously seriously misunderstanding each other.

I not only understand that women's basic human rights are being attacked... I also fully understand that there are plenty of women out there who don't even *HAVE* this right.

Try getting an abortion on the island of Ireland - take your pick, Republic or Northern... law's the same. Women have to catch a plane or a boat for a safe legal abortion - unless they're about to die or something like that. I think this is worth screaming about just as much as women here in the United States who have that human right and it absolutely needs to be protected.

It is right to be angry.

Swearing just isn't elegant.

Got it?

Peace out, EOM.

[Lars39]

258. Being thought elegant is the least of my concerns.

[Warren DeMontague]

243. Oh for fuckitty fuck's fuck sake.

Jesus fucking Christ. We're adults, this is the internet.

[Warren DeMontague]

244. What's uncivil is thinking you're somehow placed on this earth to 2nd guess other peoples' private

personal decisions. That's what's "vulgar". People who can't fucking handle the concept that their head is attached to THEIR body and as such should be in charge of decisions pertaining to that body alone, not being pompous fuckleberrys sitting on the sofa pontificating endlessly about what women 'should' do when they're pregnant.

That is the fucking vulgarity, Jack. News flash- we have women across this country being denied reproductive services, getting their birth control prescriptions held hostage by jesus drunk pharmacists. We have legislators who would like nothing more than to start throwing women in jail for unexplained vaginal bleeding.

Guess what? It's not about you and your delicate linguistic sensibilities.

[mwooldri]

245. Too true. I am *not* placed on this earth to 2nd guess as such.

I. Get. It.

I'm in the fight, I am on the side of human rights.

Another newsflash... been in a country where abortion is illegal??? That women who become pregnant and choose to terminate have to get on a plane or boat in order to get a legal and safe abortion? I'm talking about the most enlightened country called Ireland - and despite the fact that there is a Republic of and a Northern Ireland, the law about abortion on Irish soil is a bit fat no. They have to go to Great Britain to get that abortion, and even then there are restrictions on abortion, you have to get two doctors, it has to be proven this that and the other and 3rd trimester by choice alone is illegal.

It is absolutely 100% totally and utterly correct that this basic human right, denied to plenty of people around the world is defended where the right is illegal and it needs to be campaigned about in places where it is not illegal.

I also hope you can tell at this point that I completely and utterly disassociate myself with the Church of Rome.

However said... vulgar language gets us nowhere. You are correct: it isn't about my "delicate linguistic sensibilities". However going effing and blinding about the issue is again counterproductive.

You're welcome to have the last word. My message is unchanged. TorchTheWitch is 99% correct in my eyes, though vulgarities will denigrate the argument further. As it has.

Again, peace out, EOM.

[Warren DeMontague]

247. As you allude, the situation in Ireland (like many other things) is the Pope's fault.

I don't know what the specifics are in England, but here in the states you don't have women aborting in the 3rd trimester "by choice alone". Frankly, the idea that women are running around pregnant for 7,8 mos. and then deciding to abort 'on a whim' is typical right wing gibberish. The reality just isn't that.

And that's what I stand for. The default position needs to be, you make the call for your body. Not me.

[mwooldri]

252. With that default position I agree with you 100 [censored] percent. nt.

[SemperEadem]

255. then go cry to your queen about that

tough shit if you don't like the cursing.. you are free to not read what I or anyone here writes.

[uppityperson]

65. Your role then is to continue to vote pro-choice, to donate your money and time to keep the choice

of a legal hygienic abortion be a choice for all, not just for the rich. Your role is to continue to support your friends in their decisions.

Of course you can have an opinion, I'd prefer what you DO with that opinion be working to keep the choice legal.

[mwooldri]

174. This guy will +1 this role.

I think all men should support this position, even if they personally believe that abortion is "teh evil".... (spelling mistake intentional).

Legal, safe, and rare. Simple as that.

[Powdered Toast Man]

225. Yes, because he's been given such wonderful encouragement to do so.

Somebody comes on here and agrees with that abortion should be legal, despite the fact that his mother chose adoption over abortion and gets attacked and told he doesn't matter... and it wouldn't have mattered if he was born, and then is told his role is to continue to support abortion.

WTF!

I have always supported the right to choose, but dammit, dialogue like this does not win anyone over. If you can even call it dialogue.

[uppityperson]

236. There are extremists but I try not to be.

Separating how one feels from what one does can be difficult. Being civil about this issue can also be difficult since there is so much at stake.

For those that tell you "you don't matter" and to stfu, there are others who will listen and talk and dialogue. Not knowing anyone else's story, it is difficult to say why someone says "stuf". However, even to those I try to talk, as others do.

My aging mother said she hoped none of her kids ever had to have an abortion, but she donated time and money to keep them available. Having worked in women's health matters for most of my adult life, abortions MUST be kept safe and legal and accessible. More women will die if they aren't, more women will be in poverty if they aren't, yes more "potentials" will not happen but for those of us alive? It will help more women stay alive and have decent lives and must be preserved.

Keeping the choice of a safe, legal, hygienic, accessible abortion legal, safe and accessible is a necessity.

[cognoscere]

104. "A sac of cells is NOT a person. It does not think, it does not reason..."

Are you describing a developmental stage of a potential human being or Rush Limbaugh? I used to think of him as a sack of shit that had arms and legs grafted on to it(with his head being a protrusion of the sack), but your description is much better.

[Powdered Toast Man]

224. That is SERIOUSLY Fucked up!

Wow... it's called humanity. Maybe you could show some for someone who agrees with you despite having every reason NOT to.

[TorchTheWitch]

54. your opinion stops where a woman's body begins n/t

[el_bryanto]

55. Simple and straightforward. Am I allowed to think people should stop smoking? n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

59. your opinion stops where someone else's body begins

PERIOD. It is none of your fucking business whether or not someone smokes as long as they aren't adversely effecting the physical health of someone else.

NOT. YOUR. BUSINESS.

[el_bryanto]

61. If i see someone about to off themselves am I allowed to say "Wait! Don't kill yourself!" n/t

[snooper2]

72. No, you really shouldn't...

If somebody really doesn't want to live anymore it should be their choice to off themselves...

As long as I get any tools left behind :P

[TorchTheWitch]

75. are they killing themselves by a private legal medical procedure?

If so, then you're damn right you should butt the fuck out.

However, you weren't talking about that were you? You were talking about someone killing themselves in such a way that is not a private and legal medical procedure, in which case you're talking apples and pianos.

Private legal medical procedures - which is what an abortion IS - is NOT. YOUR. FUCKING. BUSINESS.

[el_bryanto]

77. That's a pretty fine line. But your volume more than makes up for it.

The great thing about the Abortion issue is that everybody is so damned secure in their position, that they can happily condemn even the slightest disagreement as monsterous.

Bryant

[uppityperson]

82. I'd change "everybody" to "too many"

[Warren DeMontague]

253. I fully support your right to not get an abortion.

However, I do not support your right to pompously clomp around presuming you're entitled to tell women what choices they should or shouldn't make with their bodies.

[MedicalAdmin]

139. I would feel hurt and betrayed if my wife had an abortion without discussing it with me.

Not because it isn't her decision. Not because I want a kid. Not because I need to be heard. And not because I'm against abortion.

It would be because of trust. I would be hurt because in some way I wasn't a good enough person or partner for her to feel safe or comfortable enough with me to trust that I would support her. I'm allowed an opinion. What I am not allowed IMHO in a relationship is the freedom to express it any way I want or to force someone to do something they don't want to do. And that is what I am commenting on here - opinions and their place in communication within a relationship.

I think the clowns who picket health clinics should be given a free tailored jacket and accomodations at the house of rubber rooms and really long sleeves. Just my opinion.

I think you are mistaking opinion with action. One is passive, the other is active. (sorry for the sarcasm). FYI - our clinic policy is to protect patient rights from everyone including the government and especially insurance companies.

[Powdered Toast Man]

226. Didn't you read? Your opinion doesn't matter.

It's not an emotional decision, and shouldn't have to require much thought at all. At least that's what I've been reading this morning.

It's just a "sac of cells" that won't be missed, because the potential life will never know.

[MedicalAdmin]

232. That's not my take on the general tone of this discussion at all.

There is one person stridently saying that men don't deserve an opinion, and perhaps in her case that is correct. But not in all as has been shown by the vast majority of responsdents.

The point I got is that the general view of the women who have shared here is that men shouldn't be able to make that decision and that NO ONE has any business making a medical decision for another person.

But I think most have been clear that it is an emotional decision whether that reaction is releaf, joy, sadness, etc...

[Warren DeMontague]

249. Do you worry about the feelings of your sperm?

It's just as reasonable to say sperms have feelings and potential life, as it is to say a fertilized egg does.

[Warren DeMontague]

251. No.

You should let that fucking straw man burn.

[Warren DeMontague]

248. Let me get the tiny violin out for you, since you're not being "allowed" to think what you want.

:nopity:

:eyes:

Yeah, dude. It's all about you--- and the unfairness of having your opinion regarding what total strangers should or shouldn't do with their wombs disrespected. Waaaah!

[uppityperson]

67. oh bullshit. Everyone has the right to an opinion, it is what they DO with their opinon

that counts. Yes, I'd prefer everyone to be openminded and not prejudging anything or anyone, but that isn't possible and telling someone they have no right to an opinion, even one I find appalling, is wrong.

What they do with their opinion is what matters. And yes, we can and do work at changing opinions but "no right to an opinion" is bullshit.

[TorchTheWitch]

79. do you have a right to have an opinon about my personal and

private medical decision to have any other medical procedure that is not an abortion? No, you don't. Case closed.

[uppityperson]

81. Yes, I do. And you have a right to an opinion about mine. You have NO right to do anything

about that opinion though. You have a right to an opinion about anything, but often NO right to do anything about it.

Case closed.

[TorchTheWitch]

96. that's nuts

First, PRIVATE medical decisions aren't up for opinion unless you're the patient or the medical professional.

Second, should I know anything about any of your private medical procedures and your decisions that led to them, no fucking way do I have a right to an opinion concerning any of it because your private medical procedures and the decisions that led you to them are not my damn business. The only opinion that matters is your own and in a professional medical capacity your doctor's. Yours is exactly the attitude that leads to poor decision making and feelings of guilt or shame or regret for those making those PRIVATE medical decisions and exactly why abortion even became an "issue"... busybodies with opinions they have no right to concerning someone else's PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures and voicing them. Busybodies need to BUTT THE FUCK OUT of other peoples' PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures that are of zero concern to them.

No, you have no right to an opinion about whether or not I have cartilage scraped off my knee or why I came to any decision about it or what led to my decisions about it. That's between me and my doctor - PERIOD. Not only do you have no right to an opinion about it, you don't have the right to even KNOW about it. NOT. YOUR. BUSINESS.

Once you give someone the idea that they have a right to an opinion on someone else's private medical decisions and subsequent procedures they WILL and DO believe they have a right to voice them thereby butting into someone else's PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures they have no right to do. They do not even have the right to KNOW about them much less have an opinion about them. You cannot divorce the "right to the opinion" from the "right to voice the opinion". That's exactly why the abortion "issue" became an issue.

[uppityperson]

101. If I know about something, I have the right to an opinion. Not a right to DO anything about it.

Why are you trying to force me to think or feel a certain way? Why are you trying to force me to not thing? CAPS doesn't help your argument. Neither do your insults.

Yes, I DO have the right to think about something and have an opinion. Why are you trying to control my thoughts? Seriously?

I agree, very much, that I have no right to know about anyone's health care except my own. Good grief I have never said that I do and never will. ALL I am saying is that yes, if I do know about something I do have the right to hold my own opinion on it. This isn't 1984 and attempts at mind control are bad.

"Once you give someone the idea that they have a right to an opinion on someone else's private medical decisions and subsequent procedures they WILL and DO believe they have a right to voice them thereby butting into someone else's PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures they have no right to do. They do not even have the right to KNOW about them much less have an opinion about them. You cannot divorce the "right to the opinion" from the "right to voice the opinion". That's exactly why the abortion "issue" became an issue."

Wrong. Once you give someone the idea that they have the right to someone else's private medical decisions/etc, once you give someone the idea that they have the right to DO ANYTHING, including legislate, about that opinion, then they will try and change and modify and control access to care. THAT is exactly why the abortion "issue" became an issue.

I feel sorry for you that you are trying to control my thoughts. Very sorry for you.

[TorchTheWitch]

159. you seem to be really confused

We aren't talking about a general issue concerning opinions on abortion, we're talking about your insistence that you have perceived right to an opinion on an INDIVIDUAL'S private medical decisions and subsequent procedures. We have medical privacy laws for a reason - because no one has the right to even KNOW about an individual's private medical decisions and subsequent procedures much less any perceived right of opinion on the said individual's private medical decisions and subsequent procedures. This is the ENTIRE legal basis concerning abortion rights - the right to PRIVACY concerning an individual's PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures which include abortion. It is the perceived right of not only knowledge of but opinion based on such knowledge by busybodies about someone else's private medical decisions and procedures that is exactly what the right wing anti-abortion stance is based on. You are taking the right wing's anti-abortion stance to heart by agreeing that they are correct in having a right to an opinion concerning someone else's PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures when they don't even have the right to KNOW about it. Here you are actually giving that right wing anti-abortion platform merit by arguing FOR it.

Let's refresh your memory on this account...

In my post #79, I said "Do you have a right to have an opinion about my personal and private medical decision to have any other medical procedure that is not an abortion? No, you don't. Case closed."

In your reply #81 to said post you stated: "Yes, I do. And you have a right to an opinion about mine. You have NO right to do anything about that opinion though. You have a right to an opinion about anything, but often NO right to do anything about it. Case closed."

How is it that you don't seem to realize what you're arguing for here? You are arguing the right wing anti-abortion stance that you have a right to not only KNOW about MY personal and PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures concerning an abortion but have a right to an opinion on them and have even gone several leaps forward that not only do you believe you can have this right of knowledge and opinion about MY personal and PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures concerning abortion but ANY of MY personal and PRIVATE medical decisions and procedures. Why in the world are you actually arguing that not only does the right wing anti-abortion platform of a perceived right of not only the knowledge of but the perceived right of opinion based on that knowledge of an INDIVIDUAL'S personal and PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures has merit not only in the case of abortion but ANY of an INDIVIDUAL'S private medical decisions and subsequent procedures. Not even the right wing goes THAT far.

Just what is it that you don't seem to understand about the laws concerning an individual's medical privacy? How the hell do you even form an opinion concerning an individual's private medical decisions and subsequent procedures without first having the knowledge of them? How do you perceive a right of opinion concerning an individual's private medical decisions and subsequent procedures without first having the perceived right to invade an individual's medical privacy in order to gain the knowledge necessary to form such an opinion? How is it that you don't seem to get that that is exactly what you are arguing here and that it goes FAR beyond the right wing stance concerning abortion and medical privacy... you champion that stance concerning ANY of an individual's private medical decisions and subsequent procedures.

This is not about me trying to "control your thoughts" it's about you having the belief you have the right to invade MY medical privacy or anyone else's medical privacy in order to even form those thoughts. I don't feel the least bit sorry for you as I don't waste one iota of sympathy on anyone who thinks they have a perceived right to invade any individual's medical privacy whether it's about abortion or anything else in order gain the knowledge to form that perceived right of opinion concerning any individual's PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures.

Medical privacy rights means it is NONE. OF. YOUR. FUCKING. BUSINESS.

CASE. FUCKING. CLOSED.

[uppityperson]

161. You are the confused one. Let me try this again, see if I can simplify what I am saying.

I have no right to anyone's private medical/health care information.

I have a right to hold an opinion on anything.

I do not have a right to do any action to force my opinion on you.

-------------------------
That is what I am saying. You have NO right to tell me I can not hold an opinion and by doing so ARE trying to control my thoughts.
---------------

You write "You are arguing the right wing anti-abortion stance that you have a right to not only KNOW about MY personal and PRIVATE medical decisions and subsequent procedures concerning an abortion"

NO I AM NOT. No I am not. No. I. Am. Not. As I have stated over and over, NO I DO NOT. I am NOT arguing that. No. No. No. Not in a boat. Not with a goat. I do NOT have any right to know about any medical/health care information.

Can you at ALL understand that? I am NOT saying ANYONE should have ANY right to ANYONE ELSE'S medical/health care information. Quit saying I am as I AM NOT.

As a health care provider and even before HIPPA and all that I still held patient privacy to a high standard. How the FUCK ELSE could I have managed a Family Planning Clinic for as long as I did if I didn't? Seriously. I am NOT saying what you continue to accuse me of saying.

All I am saying is I, and you, and EVERYONE ELSE has the RIGHT to hold an opinion on EVERYTHING and YOUR trying to take away that right is idiotic and yes, mind controlling.

IS IT CLEAR NOW?

[BzaDem]

125. If he has no right to an opinion, just what exactly are you going to do about it?

Seems to me like anyone can have whatever opinions they want, and there is absolutely nothing you can do to to stop them, on any issue, whether you like it or not.

[MedicalAdmin]

141. "not my damn business"

And that's your opinion about the subject. It's not everyones....

[MedicalAdmin]

144. Rights versus privilege.

Your records are privileged info. That privilege is based on privacy rights of both you and the attending physician and the resulting medical relationship between you. Medical record privacy is not an absolute right under our current laws.

I suspect that what you are concern about with your slippery slope argument (and you could be correct in this as this type of argument is not necessarily falacious and is sometimes descriptive) is that opinions could slide down the slope to action. Is this an accurate summary?

[WatsonT]

114. How would one even go about taking away that priviledge?

(since apparently it isn't a right)

If indeed we are not allowed to have opinions about something, how does that get taken away?

I suppose you could penalize people for what they say. But they would still be free to think whatever they want.

Also I assume you have formed no and will refuse to express any opinions on the subject of vasectomies.

[MedicalAdmin]

140. I've been following your arguments...

I have a question.

When you use the word opinion, do you mean it in the legal sense as in to have a legal opinion, or do you mean it in the literal sense as in to have a thought?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

[uppityperson]

163. Backing up to here to try again. Please read and see what I am saying rather than

just reacting.

Of course I have no right to know anything about your personal/private medical/health care.

However, if you chose to tell me, I have a right to have an opinion about your specific case. If you do not chose to tell me, or god help me I'm not working in the clinic you use, then I have no idea or right to any knowledge about your specific health care.

However, I still have the fucking RIGHT to hold an opinion about abortions, about reasons people get them, about who provides them (and yes to whom I refer people). I have the right to an opinion about anything.

I do NOT have the right to find out anything about your health care.

Does that make sense?

[blueamy66]

262. I'm adopted and have had an abortion.

Don't get how you associate the two.

If you were never born, you'd never know it.

I'm sure someone else has posted this....haven't read the entire thread....so if I'm repeating somebody else, Sorry

[ieoeja]

30. +1. I have never understood why people think it is such a big deal. (nt)

[el_bryanto]

32. You really don't understand that? I mean really can't grasp it?

Why do they say it is a big deal?

[ieoeja]

39. Correct. (nt)

[el_bryanto]

46. Fair enough. You must go to a lot of effort not to understand. n/t

[ieoeja]

85. Just the opposite. I strove to understand. But can not.

I find abortion no more troubling than getting stitches or having a tooth extracted. I really, truly, honestly have absolutely no idea why anyone gives a fuck.

Of course, when I was a child, the Roman Catholic church was pro-choice. So the United States has really turned topsy-turvy in my lifetime.

[el_bryanto]

91. I find that baffling

2 arguments - religious and non-religious

I will assume that you do not believe in the soul; but for a moment consider what the existence of the soul would mean. Soul in this case meaning some spiritual compenent to our mortal existence, a part of you that exists independently of your physical body. At what point does the soul combine with meat to form a person? There is no way of knowing (just as there is no way to prove the existence of the soul at all).

The non religious argument deals with potential. Each collection of cells has the potential to become a human being. You have no way of knowing what that child might grow up to be. She might grow up to be a useless drain on society. She might grow up to be a brilliant artist or orator. You don't know and when the fetus is aborted you'll never know.

Now of course I don't think those arguments (or others like them) are sufficient to ban abortion or even put limits on it. Women should have the right to choose. But they are sufficient to consider abortion a bit more meaningful than having a tooth extracted.

Bryant

[ieoeja]

95. Not religious.

And the non-religious point applies equally well to a woman's period. If a person truly felt the way you describe, they should be in fulltime anquish considering the number of women who have periods routinely instead of finding some guy to knock them up so another collection of cells loses its potential.

[el_bryanto]

99. Fair enough; the point isn't to convince you that abortion is wrong

It's to help you understand why some people oppose it and others aren't comfortable with it. Since you don't understand why people see Abortion as a more significant signficant medical procedure than having a tooth pulled. That's why I presented the religious argument; obviously I don't expect that to convince anybody, but if you are really trying to understand how other people think than that's part of how some people think on this issue.

I would say that a pregnent woman is a bit further down the road in terms of a new potential human being than a woman having her period (or a guy masterbating, which you could equally have mentioned).

Bryant

[ieoeja]

134. Heck, I didn't understand all the fuss people made over my mom's corpse a couple years ago.

So I fully accept that I really don't understand people. Which is why I sometimes just accept that people are the way they are.

As a result, I am happy to accept a compromise with people who have a problem with abortion, even if I can't understand that objection.

1. I will leave them alone about it, as in, I won't insist on their taxes being used to pay for abortions.

2. They leave everyone else alone about it, as in, stop trying to legislate against it, stop trying to shutdown clinics, stop trying to convince people uninterested in listening to their arguments, etc.

[uppityperson]

138. Can I stop paying for wars with my taxes? I think that is very unethical.

[blueamy66]

264. I was raised Roman Catholic

went to 13 years of Catholic school....was adopted and had an abortion....

Now, what were you saying???

Oh, and I am female, with a uterus. Do you have one?

[uppityperson]

103. Exactly. Every time a woman menstruated everyone should be in anguish

After all, it "could" have been someone. Betcha there is something to some extremist fundie somewhere that agrees with that, making all their wimmins pregnant as much as possible.

[MedicalAdmin]

146. There is an fundie cult around this.

Here's a link. http://www.quiverfull.com/


Don't say I didn't warn you - click at your own risk.

[Rozlee]

178. It's not even about abortion.

I have a relative that's an anti-choicer and has gone off on me and my daughters on ALL our use of artificial birth control. She had elective surgery to remove her uterus back in the 80s before she went fundie and raves on the fact that I had a tubal, my daughters are on the pill, and she even showed me some kind of pamphlet her anti-abortion group has titled: CONDOMS: USERS BEWARE! which goes on to use some kind of weird psuedoscience to say that condoms cause cancer and the spread of flesh-eating bacteria. The only kind of birth control acceptable is the use of the temperature guide, calender based rhythm method, that is 100% effective and what they've used with great success. Bullshit! When I stayed with one of the girls and her kid had a fever, she didn't even have a thermometer. I smell a rat. So, no. It's not even about abortion. It's about taking ALL reproductive choice away from women. They want us popping out Irish twins every two years with one in the oven after that last one.

[MedicalAdmin]

234. A comment and then a monty python moment.

The comment is about the thermometer. My wife is a doctor - we don't have one in our house. Fevers are actually the bodies way of fighting infections and are amazingly effective. Of course we don't have kids, but then again we don't think a fever of up to 103 or 105 is a problem. The literature is pretty clear on this. Having said that if you are more comfortable knowing, then use a thermometer - just avoid the ones that take temp in the ears because they are not the most accurate. The gold standard at a reasonable price is still the glass ones that you stick under the tongue or up your ... er... you know.


And now for something completely different. The miracle of life - part 2: the 3rd world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s

[Common Sense Party]

254. When was the RCC "pro-choice"? Link?

[Iris]

98. I haven't gone to any more effort than listening to my friends who've had abortions.

None of them described the decision or the time leading up to it as heart-wrenching.

[uppityperson]

68. Sometimes the decision is easy, sometimes heartbreaking. There is no "should", but how it is

and no, every woman for whom it is heartbreaking has not been "duped by a lifetime of being beat over the head that they're evil to consider abortion and if they have one they're a sick person for not feeling guilty and bad about it. " Some are, very true, but not all of them.

[HERVEPA]

183. Very well said!

[readmoreoften]

157. Ditto!

[liberalhistorian]

191. Lemme guess. You would have been one of the people

who harassed me twenty years ago when I decided not to have an abortion and to have my son, despite the fact that I waa not in the best of circumstances at all. 'Cause, see, the choice can go both ways and, yes, women CAN agonize over it some of the time. It ain't like having a hangnail removed. Just because YOU don't think it's that big of a deal doesn't mean a lot of other women, even pro-choice women, agree with that.

I have no right to make the choice for other women, but some pro-choice people I knew were as bad as the pro-lifers when I was pregnant; what they really meant by "choice" was THEIR choice. In that, they were no different than the pro-lifers at all. In fact, many family and friends who were more on the pro-life side of the aisle were kinder and more sympathetic than those who were pro-choice. I knew that, even though I supported abortion rights, I could never have one myself, I'd always known that. And I have as much right to feel that way as someone who does choose to have an abortion.

And no, despite the dire predictions of those who harassed me because I did NOT have an abortion, I never regretted having my son and my life did not fall apart.

[SemperEadem]

212. wrong

the whole premise of Torch's point is that it was none of her business what you did with your pregnancy and if you wanted to spead your legs, lay up and have 20 children, then go have them and rear them. If you didn't, then you, the father(if you have a relationship with him) and your doctor need to have a conversation which doesn't include busybodies telling you to do one thing or the other.

At least her point of view assumes that if you're grown enough to get pregnant then you're grown enough to handle it whichever way you choose without random strangers believing that they have a right to tell you how you should handle it.

See--that word CHOOSE. That is what it is all about.

[liberalhistorian]

218. I didn't get that sense at all from the post.

What I got was an overreactive hypersensitive whose idea of choice was what she thought it should be and nothing else. And the dismissiveness against women who may, indeed, agonize over an abortion decision and who might have more trouble with it than she thought they should was really over the top. If no one has any right to tell the woman what to do, as the poster said, then she has no right to dictate what her feelings should be. This is not a simple decision over what to have for dinner, this is a major decision that, once done, cannot be undone. It would be nice if she'd recognize that others might not feel the same way or choose the same thing and that doesn't make them brainwashed or any other such nonsense.

[SemperEadem]

256. oh, the old "hysterical woman" premise.

I see.

[blueamy66]

263. +1000

NT

[LoZoccolo]

22. I'm not saying they should but men would get asked about vasectomies.

I don't know if it's true and don't feel like bothering to look it up but I think in some places you might need spousal permission to get a vasectomy.

[Nye Bevan]

24. No spousal permission needed for my vasectomy.

And it was a piece of cake. I only got the local anesthetic, no sedation. I read my Kindle during the procedure. The only part I didn't like was the smell of burning flesh when the vas were cauterized.

[LoZoccolo]

25. Yeah, it might be a state-to-state thing or it might not.

I might be completely wrong. I'm at work and I do not want to look up vasectomies.

[ieoeja]

31. What particular medical professional do you seek for a vasectomy?

Not that I've had any need for one in awhile. But just to be safe (from at least this one potential consequence), I have been considering this.

And am too lazy to look it up when I have you right here to ask!

[Nye Bevan]

34. Urologist (nt)

[MedicalAdmin]

147. Vet?

[MountainLaurel]

35. Urologist n/t

[HappyMe]

38. urologist? nt

[uppityperson]

69. GYN and gen surgeon I worked with did vasectomies in office. So did FP doc.

Call your regular doctor or clinic (if you have one) and ask. Urologists do but so do some general surgeons and Family Practice docs.

Don't play volleyball the night after you get it done. Seriously, don't. And yes, people have.

[Gormy Cuss]

74. IIRC I think that where it exists it's spousal notification, not permission.

Spousal notification may take the form of requiring the spouse to sign a statement asserting that s/he has been made aware of the spouse's intent but it does not constitute consent.

Of course, requiring notification is a coercive measure meant to keep individuals from making these choices on their own.

[yellerpup]

109. I had to endure a bitter lecture when my ex-husband

had his vasectomy. The doctor was of the opinion that I should have my tubes tied instead because I couldn't use birth control pills. The ex refused to use wear a condom and got very pushy when he had been drinking. I told him I would not have another abortion because there were easier methods of birth control. I was only 25 at the time and not sure whether or not I wanted to have children, but he was sure so he had his vasectomy.

[musette_sf]

110. I needed spousal approval for a tubal ligation

some 30+ years ago. Along with a psychiatric evaluation.

The shrink was a cool guy, though. My opening lines were something like, "Okay, so if I'm 16 and preg with twins, I don't have to provide proof of ANYTHING to pop 'em out and raise 'em up. But if I'm over 21 and want to NOT get preg, I need my male owner's permission, and you have to certify I'm NOT nuts?" It was all downhill from there.

If I were getting this surgery done today and were asked to fulfill the same pre-requisites, I'd have a lawsuit on their patriarchal @sses in a NY minute.

On edit: PS, the spouse who signed off on the "I Never Want Kids, signed, Mr. Decision Maker" statement... is remarried... with several kids. So much for that "spousal permission". And I? NO KIDS EVER.

[Gormy Cuss]

171. People forget that there are valid reasons for calling the movement PRO-CHOICE.

Most of the old patriarchal laws that required women to get the hubby's permission disappeared by the end of the 1970s. This latest round of "spousal notification" is just trying to put women in their places again.

[SemperEadem]

213. I had a TL done in 1997. I was single and about 37. I needed no one's permission

nor did I need any evaluation. My doctor went over my options for BC with me and she asked me if I wanted to do it and I said "where do I sign up?" I've never regretted the decision.

It is complete BS to subject a woman to any psychiatric evaluation on a decision she's made about her reproductive organs.

[ehrnst]

27. Because of the right wing lies about women being flippant or ignorant about abortion.

"women just don't know what they're reeeeeally doing" or "women just stop in for an abortion on a whim, because it's legal"

[eilen]

37. The outraged "They use abortion as birth control!"

So what?

Isn't that their business? The same people who tell us that poor people should access the emergency room for health care.

The same people who come in every year for angioplasty and stents because they don't want to give up that gravy, pepsi and drive-throughs.

[TBF]

29. K&R nt

[cliffordu]

33. K&R

[Deep13]

36. Your choice and it sounds like you made the right one.

I'd never hold that against someone. Of course, most of the time I would never know because I would never ask. The few times I found out that so-and-so had an abortion it was because someone else blabbed. My response to that or any other intensely personal revelation is, "If she had wanted me to know she would have told me herself."

We're at something like 7.2 billion humans so I cannot be against any birth control method.

[OneGrassRoot]

40. K&R n/t

[Horse with no Name]

41. An abortion is a legal medical procedure

Now some women might experience guilt, some might experience remorse, and some women might just experience relief. I have heard all of the emotions regarding abortion--however, I have never heard anyone experience happiness or glee over the procedure.

It is a totally unique experience for every women that makes her decision and I do not believe ANYONE takes it lightly.

This shouldn't even still be being discussed in this day and time. We should be well past the point of having to explain ANYTHING.

My body--MY business.

Your body--Your business.

Is that really so hard to understand?

[TorchTheWitch]

71. Gee, can't imagine why they wouldn't voice their happiness

Are you serious???

You BETTER believe that there are SCADS of women who after the procedure and recovery is complete are so damn HAPPY they aren't stuck with a pregnancy they didn't want, can't afford, etc. they'd like to do backflips. But who the hell is going to actually ADMIT to that happiness in a social environment where women are made to feel like an evil person for having an abortion?

Oh, you're damn bloody right that should I ever need to have an abortion and once the procedure and recovery is over with and all is well I'd be so ridiculously happy that my life and my health wasn't going to be destroyed because of an unwanted pregnancy I'd be doing back flips. But if I ever admitted such a thing I know I'd be roundly chastised and thought of as a sickening individual for that happiness so it's no fucking wonder you've never heard of anyone being SOOOOO relieved they were THRILLED. Escaping having your life and health destroyed because of an unwanted pregnancy is God damned THRILLING.

JUST as thrilling as someone having that messed up cartilage scraped out of their knee would feel being able to walk and run and get back to a normal life and JUST as thrilling as someone having their diseased appendix removed would feel being able to keep on living a normal and healthy life without it, etc. Oh, but that person that had their knee repaired or diseased appendix removed is ALLOWED to voice their happiness at having the procedure done, aren't they?

[uppityperson]

73. Do you mean over the procedure or having the abortion done as far as happiness?

If you mean you've never heard anyone experience happiness over having the abortion, then you haven't listened to enough women as yes, they often do. I have heard many be happy at having the abortion, not just relief but happy to have had it.

If you mean you've never heard anyone say they were happy at the discomfort and invasiveness of the procedure, well yes. Few are. As few are happy at the discomfort and invasiveness of any surgical procedure.

I think I get what you are saying, but wanted to check. And I agree and thank you for your support
"Your body--Your business.

Is that really so hard to understand?"

[Horse with no Name]

76. The procedure

I know many women who leave the clinics feel relief that it is over--then happiness about the outcome of the procedure...but to experience glee at having their manicure at noon and their abortion at 1....I've never heard that and I don't believe that exists anywhere except in the dark recesses of the republican mind.

[uppityperson]

80. I've known women to be happy at having manicure then abortion, but

not those to be happy at having the discomfort related to the procedure. This sounds like a communication problem, since even you and I are having difficulty. Let me try a couple examples to clarify.

2 women have appointments for a pedicure and then an abortion.

1) Mary relaxes at the pedicure appointment, happy to be pampered and hey, it feels good! Off to get her abortion during which she experiences really bad cramping, not to mention having to be in lithotomy position for half an hour, leading to abdominal and leg cramps. This feels bad. However, as she walks out the door she is very happy to not have to deal with a pregnancy.

2) Sue is at the pedicure appointment, happy to be pampered and hey, her feet are very sensitive and she discovers she really doesn't like having her toenails messed it, too stressful. Off to get her abortion during which she experiences really bad cramping, not to mention having to be in lithotomy position for half an hour, leading to abdominal and leg cramps. This feels bad but she's a masochist and loves pain. As she walks out the door she is very happy to not have to deal with a pregnancy.

Both went to the same places, both physically felt the same things but interpreted them the same way.

Yes, some women do schedule something pleasurable before they have an abortion, treating themselves because, for most women, the abortion includes bad cramps and that lithotomy position. However, I know of few who schedule abortions in advance, then spend the time between fucking like bunnies so they can get pregnant and have the abortion.

[MedicalAdmin]

148. Complete agreement.

I think what you have elegantly stated is exactly why the Reich Wing keeps trying to change the laws and outlaw/criminalize parts/all of the procedure. By their pee sized sense of logic, they figure that if they can't argue with the logic then they will just change the rules and make it illegal.

And no - I didn't make a typo.

[MellowDem]

43. I haven't seen it...

that is, women constantly feeling like they have to justify having an abortion.

As far as I can tell, most women keep it private in the first place. If they do tell you they got an abortion, there is usually a reason they are telling you. Like many medical procedures, especially one with such controversy surrounding it, people want to keep it private.

None of that will change one's view on when life/personhood/whatever begins in one's opinion, and that does seem to be one of the factors for a lot of women when weighing their options. A lot of women who have unwanted pregnancies go through with it and have the baby anyways after all.

How others feel about your situation is there opinion, and they are entitled to it. Most people don't want to hear other's opinion on such a topic though. Legality or privacy has nothing to do with the moral question after all. And morality is always a touchy subject.

[gratuitous]

44. You're right, but . . .

The stories are important, because they counterbalance the anti-woman side. They put humanity on this story, and provide a competing narrative to "irresponsible sluts" so beloved by the misogynists.

I remember a letter to Dear Abby many years ago. A woman had had some kind of uterine event, a fertilized egg that failed to implant properly or some such thing. She went to the doctor, who performed a dilation and curettage procedure. The woman was shocked and horrified to see this classified in her medical chart as an abortion. I don't recall if she explicitly said it, but the impression I was left with was that she would have preferred carrying around this necrotic tissue until it either worked it way out naturally or went septic and killed her. Unfortunately, Dear Abby (or it could have been Ann Landers) fumbled a very good opportunity to say, "This is why it's a bad idea to ban a perfectly safe medical procedure; abortion isn't a dirty word, and it isn't the sole province of irresponsible sluts. Any woman between menses and menopause may need this procedure to remain healthy or save her life."

[Iggo]

45. Not to me, they're not. (n/t)

[LynneSin]

49. Abortion is a decision that should be between a woman and her doctor

end of discussion

[blondeatlast]

53. K/r. Mine was actually for medical reasons, but I would have done it anyway,

No guilt or regret whatsoever.

[jtown1123]

60. Thank you for being candid. Many other women feel the same exact way.

[ljm2002]

62. You are 100% correct...

...there is no need to justify it. Not that I am against hearing women's stories, but it does tend to promote the idea that some abortions are more justified than others. Whereas really, any woman who does not want to bear a child should not have to do so.

I, too, had an abortion. Mine was not legal, as it was still a few years before Roe v Wade. Luckily my mother knew a doctor who helped us find a safe place to have it. I was young and ignorant and had already tried to poke a pair of scissors up there (with no knowledge whatsoever of reproductive anatomy); that might have ended badly except for the fact that I also had a very low tolerance for pain and stopped before any damage was done.

I have never regretted the decision to have an abortion.

[Control-Z]

204. OMG.

You actually attempted to self abort using scissors? Was that before you told your mother? It seems it would have taken feelings of absolute hopelessness and desperation to attempt such a thing. (I am not questioning your actions, btw. I've just never known anyone who actually tried to self abort, other than my own mother who died in the process. I've never doubted her reasons for doing what she did but I have still lived my life making assumptions about her state of mind and the fear and desperation that must have driven her.)

I'm glad you were able to go to your mother and that she found a doctor who could help. :) I'm also glad you shared your story. Thanks.

[ljm2002]

229. I didn't try very hard...

...as I mentioned, I did not know anything about reproductive anatomy and had little to no tolerance for pain; and luckily the roommate I was living with came home while I had just started so I stopped hastily -- it wasn't much of an incident as it turned out.

On the other hand, I did do that. My state of mind was shame, mostly, to the best of my recollection.

Cali brought up such a good point, that women do NOT need to justify their decision to have an abortion to anyone, and it hit a nerve. I wanted people to understand another side of the issue: women will ALWAYS have abortions, and if abortions are not safe and legal then we find other means.

I was incredibly lucky that I did not damage or even kill myself in that attempt. I was living away from home for the first time, did not have any real friends there, did not have a clue how to find anyone who could help. Given my lack of experience at the time, I'm probably lucky I did find someone to help, I may have ended up with one of those back-alley abortions and died anyway. So after that I went home, and then I waited a few more weeks before telling my mother I was pregnant, because we never talked about sex. Once I did tell her, she was kind and concerned and helped me find a doctor so I could have a safe, albeit illegal abortion.

[snot]

63. Arguments I never hear (do you think they might help?)

1. Why is it not "involuntary servitude" to require a woman to bear a fetus to term against her will? Imagine if men could carry pregnancies; imagine telling Mitch McConnell he had to carry an unwanted fetus in his own body for nine months and give birth at great risk to his own health. (No way!)

2. A young fetus has the I.Q. of a carrot. I'm not saying it's not entitled to any consideration; but I find it absurd to accord its life more value than that of, say, a chimpanzee that can use sign language, etc. (let alone that of its mother).

3. A fetus is not a human being, it's a potential human being. There's a gray scale here, and there's probably no perfect place to draw the line; but until we have the technology to raise fetuses in test tubes or inside Mitch McConnell, we have to draw it somewhere.

[musette_sf]

118. I regularly use the "involuntary servitude" line on RR boards

and as much as the forced-birthers argue about it, they can't deny it's involuntary servitude. They're just trying to argue at that point that my servitude is for (a) "a higher purpose"; (b) my "consequences", (c) woman's obligation under "natural law".

And re "fetus is not a human being", I usually argue that A SINGLE CELL FERTILIZED EGG, with more than an 80% chance of never even implanting in the uterine wall, much less make it to term, does NOT erase MY RIGHTS at the instant of fertilization. I stick with the single-cell organism argument, rather than argue (alleged) stages of development and "viability", because to a man, and most of them ARE men, they are hell-bent on (a) "life begins at conception"; and (b) "artificial birth control is contrary to natural law". In their world I get NO options, I'm just a container waiting to be filled.

Unless they (i.e., Pubes) intend to come right out and say that women are to be stripped of all human and civil rights in their dystopian grand scheme, they CAN'T force me into slavery, and they CAN'T erase all my rights before I, or even any doctor, even knows I'm pregnant.

[MineralMan]

66. Exactly. I can't see how it's anyone else's business.

[uppityperson]

70. There are all sorts of stories and I think sharing them is a good thing, but not justifying them.

not justifying them though. Sharing stories is a good thing, helps counter the bs given by the other side. But no, no one should have to justify their abortion.

Some are easy decisions, some difficult. There are all sorts of stories and sharing them can help others and get the facts out in public view.

No one owes anyone an explanation, but sharing can help others.

[polmaven]

83. Damn right!!

well stated. It is OUR business, and ours alone.

[Evolve_Already]

84. ^5 Sister!

Thanks for putting it out there, straight forward and succinct.

Indeed, so sick and tired of dooods telling women over and over and over again how it REALLY is a "choice" but they still yack yack yack. Your opinion does not matter, OK? And if you are about ready to mansplain to me or any other woman, just stop.

[Control-Z]

205. "Mansplain"

Perfect!

Welcome to DU, Evolve_Already. You're going to fit right in!!

[Evolve_Already]

261. Thanks for the welcome Control-Z.

I see many DU'ers not reading previous posts prior to writing. This hasn't changed since I basically 'quit' DU in '06.

My handle was Ittakesavillage_people back then, however due to years of inactivity, my log-in info was gone.

Not enough posted comments so I had to write you here, not privately. Thanks for the welcome, it is appreciated. ;)

[Scout]

86. + like about a frickin' zillion n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

87. Because most Americans think that abortion is morally wrong

make no mistake, Americans are ambivalent about abortion. Despite believing that abortion is immoral, they also do not want the government prohibiting the practice.

[ceile]

88. Amen!

[femrap]

89. I spell

safe and legal abortion: R E L I E F !!!!!

I think women who have breast implants need to justify it more than if they had an abortion.

Forgive me...I'm old. I just can't believe that breast implants exist....but I don't go out and protest or deny someone the ability to undergo that medical procedure.

If the Fundies hadn't got a hold of the issue of Abortion, everyone would feel as you. This is how it was back in the '70's. Then along came Raygun and the bible-thumpers.

The teabaggers are totally riled up over abortion. It's insane... as are they.

[ieoeja]

90. Even the Roman Catholic church had a stance considered radically pro-choice today.

Official Vatican guideline said abortion was acceptable until quickening. Which was typically mid 2nd-trimester.

[femrap]

152. But then....

women got 'uppity' and wanted Equality, including the passage of the ERA. That's when all organized religions banded together to get that stopped. Jews and Muslims worked together for the first time ever!

Back in the early days, abortion/child bearing was a very private and very much a WOMEN'S issue. Men were not involved.

[Liberal Insights]

169. If Catholic priests had to carry and deliver children,

It's often been said, and as a former R.C. priest I agree wholeheartedly that "If Catholic priests had to carry and deliver children, abortion would be a sacrament."

[femrap]

175. Ain't that the Truth.

Welcome to DU.

Philadelphia Catholics had a surprise today...lots of priests (24 I think) were suspended for abusing children. Maybe castration should be a sacrament as well.

[Dash87]

92. There should be no questions asked.

If you want an abortion, you should be able to get an abortion. It's your body. :)

[we can do it]

93. EXACTLY thank you- its non one else's business

[Vehl]

94. I agree

Why should a woman justify it to others. It's her choice and her right

[pnwmom]

97. Good point. They don't have to. n/t

[greiner3]

100. Mostly the adopted babies are healthy;

White, White and did I say White?

[hfojvt]

102. I didn't know they were

I just had lunch with five women and not one of them tried to justify having an abortion. In fact, in my forty eight years of life I have never had a woman try to justify having an abortion, and I think there have been at least 3 or 4 women who talked to me, besides my mon, sisters, cousins, aunts and nieces.

So I kinda doubt if women are "constantly" doing that.

Maybe there have been stories in the papers and on the internets, but it's pretty obvious why there would be such stories.

Because there is still a debate about whether that "legal medical procedure" shoud STAY legal.

And there is a large, and vocal, section of the population who are very adamant that it should not, with very few exceptions.

A story like yours only helps to convince them that they are right.

[cali]

105. really? Try expanding your view.

I've seen it with women in the public sphere and women who are quoted in news stories fairly often.

And I find you're trying to shame me, utterly despicable. My story is the story of millions of women. Don't like it? Tough fucking shit.

[hfojvt]

119. is your reply supposed to convinced me

that you really are a nice person?

If so, I don't think you are doing it right.

The stories in the news are trying to convince people and inform people.

The anti-choice people already believe that there are millions of women killing their babies for nothing more than convenience.

[cali]

126. uh, no. I'm not trying to convince you that I'm nice

I'm trying to inform you that why a woman has an abortion is her business, and not being ready to raise a child or willing to spend 9 months carrying one, is a bit more than a matter of convenience. duh.

[uppityperson]

135. "convenience" like being able to work at a liveable wage? Being able to finish school?

Not raising a child in an abusive relationship? Not being ready or able or willing to raise a child? Not wanting to wait for weeks until her body ejects the dead fetus?

You mean those "conveniences" or do you mean things like not wanting to be fat?

[lapislzi]

235. What if they are?

Is it any business of yours?

"Killing their babies." Nice dog whistle, there, partner.

[uppityperson]

106. Someone not feeling shame about getting an abortion "helps convince then that they are right"?

Seriously? Shame on you.

[hfojvt]

122. you don't think it does?

And it is not about the shame. It is about the reasons.

Why should I be ashamed for having a prediction about what other people will think?

But I should have known better than to enter this thread.

On this issue there is not gonna be a rational discussion with some people.

[uppityperson]

124. Explain please.

"Because there is still a debate about whether that "legal medical procedure" shoud STAY legal.

And there is a large, and vocal, section of the population who are very adamant that it should not, with very few exceptions.

A story like yours only helps to convince them that they are right."

Explain what you mean please as I do not wish to misunderstand and assume.

"On this issue there is not gonna be a rational discussion with some people."

[hfojvt]

149. I don't see anything that requires an explanation, with one exception

this line "And there is a large, and vocal, section of the population who are very adamant that it should not, with very few exceptions."

is sort of unclear. Somebody might read it to mean that I said "most of the population, with very few exceptions" are anti-choice.
when what I meant is that the group feels that abortion should be "illegal, with very few exception"

Then it seemed like I got two nasty responses for trying to explain what other people would think, as if there is a crowd just laying in wait for a victim "he's not on our side, crucify him, crucify him."

Maybe I should have expected it from the OP, with my own smart-a$$ beginning. The word 'constantly' struck me as a huge exxageration, so I poked a little fun at it.

"You should never tease a weasel." (just a book from my childhood (by which I mean last week))

[uppityperson]

155. Let me try again.

"Because there is still a debate about whether that "legal medical procedure" shoud STAY legal.

And there is a large, and vocal, section of the population who are very adamant that it should not, with very few exceptions.

A story like yours only helps to convince them that they are right."

I know there is a group that is adamant that the choice of a legal hygienic medical abortion become illegal What I do not understand is how does "a story like yours only help(s) to convince them that they are right"?

[woofless]

108. I agree with you.

[pitohui]

111. because they care about the women who come after them

maybe in some fantasy world women are equal and free and no one is stopping them from controlling their own body or their own reproductive lives

here on earth many women no longer have access to abortion, in my state i would have no idea where a woman could get a safe, legal abortion -- the reality is that women are taking great risk to speak up and justify their abortions BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT

women die when they can't get a safe, legal abortion, coat hangers kill, postpartum depression and being forced to carry a baby for 9 months to give it away to somebody else like a puppy can kill too

without abortion, a woman cannot plan her life on a level playing field with a man

to pretend that abortion is something we should all just take it stride, when it should be obvious that it's under threat, the few doctors who perform abortions are being killed or else taking retirement, who knows of a young doctor willing to perform an abortion?

that's why, i'm a little surprised that it has to be explained

abortion is under threat, it isn't just some crazies foaming at the mouth, access to abortion has been destroyed for large numbers of women

women who speak up and tell the stories of how abortion helped them shouldn't be criticized for their courage, they are heroes

[uppityperson]

112. +1000

[cali]

130. I'm not criticizing women who have stories about how without an abortion

they would have died or been forced to carry a fetus who will die at birth or shortly thereafter or anything else of that nature. I'm criticizing a culture that makes women feel that only those women with those types of pregnancies are "deserving" of an abortion.

[uppityperson]

137. Indeed. Some abortions are more acceptable than others.

Those that aren't should be prohibited and those insisting on getting them shunned, shamed, prosecuted.

Bull. Shit.

Interesting article I ran across http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10258/

[Stuckinthebush]

115. Nice job

Thanks. Well done!

[BobbyBoring]

117. K+R!

Really most of the social wedge issues fall under the mind your own business category. Gay marriage? Not my biz. Religion, not my biz.

[james0tucson]

160. Not your biz

But your biz does not rely on the availability of generation after generation of low-to-moderate income children to exploit.

Abortion laws rarely affect anyone except low-income women anyway. In those days if you had money you could make a vacation out of it. Even if you only had modest means, you'd get a doctor to quietly do it. This was pretty much the norm in my hometown, at least for whites. Black teenagers had their babies. White teenagers either went away and had their orphans elsewhere, or got an abortion but this would never, ever be discussed, either way.

[prole_for_peace]

127. Brava!!

I feel exactly the same way.

After spending about an hour in total shock after I found out I was pregnant the FIRST thing I did was pull out the yellow pages to look for a clinic. I made the appointment that day then I informed my boyfriend of the pregnancy and the date that I would need a ride to go the clinic. I never worried or agonized or felt any guilt. The only emotion I felt was anger at my stupidity in getting pregnant at 18. I was smarter than that but was a teenager and nothing like that could happen to ME! It happened to other girls.

And after my abortion I felt relief and happy that it was all over. I don't think about it any more than I think about the time I broke my toe. It was just a medical procedure that was no worse than having my wisdom teeth out. It was actually easier than having my wisdom teeth removed.

[AtheistCrusader]

129. The guilt trip is a calculated weapon used by the pro-lifers.

It is intentional, and they don't care if they emotionally destroy people by using it.

[MNBrewer]

131. Our culture currently demands that they do so

Just as it demands that unionized public sector works justify themselves, and that GLBT people are required to justify themselves. It's a dictatorship where the "norm" is to be against abortion/unions/GLBT/etc. Every transgression requires explanation.

[TNLib]

132. I really wish more women were more public and outspoken about their choice

I'm tired of hearing/reading about the point of view of the born again who wishes she decided against having an abortion. I think women need to speak out and be vocal on this issue.

[PeaceNikki]

133. Agreed and thanks.

I said the same thing here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=217&topic_id=8461#8468

[csziggy]

136. Mine was because my birth control failed

I had already decided long before I started having sex that I never wanted children. The first discussion I had with a doctor about birth control was how to get a tubal ligation so I would never have to worry about pregnancy. The doctor went ballistic and railed on about how I was too young (at 22?) to make that decision and how he would never do a tubal on a woman unless it was medically indicated, not just for the "whim" of a "girl" too young to "know what she wants!"

I never went back to that doctor. I got birth control pills through the college clinic. They did not work effectively and they screwed up my cycles, which is probably why I got pregnant. When I found out, I went doctor shopping. I did not mention a pregnancy or abortion, I asked about getting a tubal. Of the four or five I talked to, ONE asked why. I explained that I had no desire to have children. I watched an aunt go through ten pregnancies with four miscarriages in fourteen years and the entire idea of having children was just not appealing to me. Holidays for much of my teens was spent baby sitting my aunt's six children and it was obvious I had no maternal instincts for how to take care of kids and no desire to learn about the subject.

The doctor said "OK" and we scheduled the procedure. When I told him it would also involve an abortion, all he asked was "Are you sure?" and he was satisfied with my answer. That doctor was a really nice man but did not treat me as a child who did not know my mind. Thank you, Dr. B!

[LeftishBrit]

142. k&r

[Chorophyll]

143. Kick and rec.

:thumbsup:

[handmade34]

151. I had one illegal abortion

and one legal... I make no excuses, no justification, no explanation... I am not sorry, I was never sad and I owe no one anything in this respect :o

[RebelOne]

267. Same here. I agree with you. n/t

[Mybrokenchains]

154. a womans body is her own, its that simple

[readmoreoften]

156. Totally agree with you. All the hand-wringing is a bad frame job to begin with.

Never had an abortion myself, but my best friend from childhood, after having three children in part due to not thinking she could ever cope with an abortion, said that having an abortion instead of that fourth child was like a moment of complete joy and liberation. She said she felt great and didn't lose an ounce of sleep. Glad I never had to have one due to the cost and bother, but those are the only two reasons. It's a medical procedure. Period.

[crim son]

158. Because we're ex-Catholics?

Seriously, to some pro-choice people like myself, the fetus is indeed a potential human being and an abortion is the end of that potential. This belief might cause sorrow or guilt and women should feel free to express those feelings, as I have, whether or not the listener is anti-abortion.

[Rex]

162. Because our society at large pressures them into feeling guilty

about their own BODY! I know, sad and wrong but here we are.

[iris27]

164. Because even the people at Planned fucking Parenthood seem to want justification.

I'm in the middle of this right now, and let me say, I never thought that PP would feel so much like one of those fundy "crisis pregnancy centers". Granted, I'm in a pretty anti-choice state, but still.

[uppityperson]

165. Not any clinics I worked at. We worked hard at not wanting or needing any justification

Yes, it does happen. And yes, sometimes even those of us who assist with abortions have issues but in the good places we talk between ourselves and maintain professionality with women having abortions because there are all sorts of stories and it is none of our business why.

I am sorry to hear that a PP clinic would be like this.

[Qanisqineq]

166. I'm with you

I had an abortion. I didn't have the baby because I didn't want it. I was young and depressed and could barely keep my own life together.

[quaker bill]

167. agreed! n/t

[grahamhgreen]

168. K&R.

[cmd]

170. Thank you!

I totally agree.

[democrank]

173. I struggle with this.

Although I was an activist in the women`s movement a few decades ago,I have always struggled with the issue of abortion. It seems to be such an incredibly profound decision that nothing about it is perfectly black or white to me.

Several of my siblings were pregnant at a very young age...14, 15 and 16. I was unable to get pregnant for many years and finally decided to adopt my son. Several years later, I gave birth to my daughter. My children mean more to me than anything in the world and I feel blessed to have them.

My position is that abortion should be legal, safe and rare. The ultimate decision belongs to the pregnant woman and when appropriate, the man she is/was involved with. I know this would be a very difficult decision for me.

[Cadilla]

177. Justifying abortions

Woman are made to feel guilty by this constant harassment of the Religious Right with the cooperation of the Media.

Republicans treat Personal Property ie Houses with more respect that they do women. If someone makes an addition to a rented house or apartment, the law states that the addition BECOMES PART OT THE OWNERS PROPERTY. Yet, Repubs and others are perfectly willing to take a woman's body and give to the UNBORN. They call it the RIGHT OF THE UNBORN.

Why is it an additon to a house becomes part of the property but an embryo get to take possession of the woman's body. It appears that the Religious Right thinks that they have the right to take a womans body and give it to someone else.

They wouldnt dream of doing that to a person's house but it is ok to usurpt a body.

[Rex]

181. Welcome to DU!

Very nice observations imo! I think it is because the house deals with money (which Republicans worship/love more than God), but a womans body (to them) is Providence. Yes, I know it makes no sense but you have to expect that from people that believe in unicorns and dragons and that dinosaurs walked the Earth with Adam and Eve.

[handmade34]

184. welcome

:hi:

[Tumbulu]

192. Good point

and along this line if the woman does have the baby the baby does not even "belong" to her. The baby is the property of the father 50/50 under most circumstances; It takes an exhaustive amount of evidence to prove abuse. So, a woman does not even own this "property" that her body produced.

[JeffersonChick]

186. Nor should they feel compelled to hide it. k&r

[krispos42]

189. Bingo. n/t

[alp227]

190. why doesn't the religious right put similar restrictions on men? abortion=excuse to shame too

y'know, asking the man why he wasn't careful to avoid knocking up a woman?

not to mention that religion poisons everything as christopher hitchens says

and another thought: it seems that abortion is made to be something that reflects poorly on a person because it shows the person who underwent it is irresponsible somehow.

[onpatrol98]

193. the male or partner in the relationship

I could see why the male in the relationship would want justification...I mean, if he's a potential father, I think that would be a different case. He doesn't have to carry the pregnancy to term. His life may not have to go through the same changes. But, he may want a voice. It would seem unfair to the woman. But, it would seem unfair to the guy, also, to have no say whatsoever.

I know one young man, where his girlfriend wanted the abortion, but he talked her out of it. As soon as the child could leave the hospital, she made him take the baby with him. He did...end of story. Her life went on and so did his. She still endured the 9 months of pregnancy and labor. But, he took the child.

Of course, I have also heard of cases, where men went to court to terminate parental rights, when the woman got pregnant, and knew in advance that he didn't want to be a parent. And, some cases where boyfriends and husbands attempted to force women to have an abortion. One tried to force his wife/girlfriend to get an abortion at gunpoint. Not to mention, the ones that attempt to force abortions through physical acts of violence against the woman...kicking, beating, etc.

It can be a complicated subject...

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IGoToDU]

195. word.

END OF STORY

[tavalon]

196. Absolutely

No explanation nor any guilt required.

That said, many have had different experiences as they choose this procedure and they are venting their personal feelings.

[Withywindle]

197. I think your header might be kind of inflammatory.

The simple answer to your question is: because women are constantly guilt-tripped over it, and told that it's a terrible terrible thing, and this idea that it's always such a horrible thing is used as a wedge to divide women, enabling some women to think, "Well, I NEEDED an abortion but that woman over there is an irresponsible slut so she doesn't deserve one" (and of course there are thousands of anti-choice women who have had abortions who are miles and miles ahead of any pro-choice woman in the justification/rationalization race).

Women are generally conditioned all too well to internalize guilt. Even if we actually don't have "mixed feelings" about abortion, we are constantly told we should. So it can be really difficult to stand up say, "I had one because I didn't want to have a baby. Full stop. I don't regret it."

I'm in favor of all women having supportive space to tell their stories if they want to, regardless of what that story is; and I'm also in favor of women not feeling pressure to tell if they don't want to. The reason the horrible rape and incest and medical condition stories get so much play, in crude political terms, is that there are strong forces out there who want to take EVEN THAT away. Who think it's OK to force a woman to keep physical evidence of her rape inside her for 9 months (in effect, making sure the rape goes on and on and on and on and the woman has no power to make it stop); who think it's OK if pregnancy is a death sentence. Some of that kind of experience-sharing is a desperate attempt to try to force reptiles to feel empathy.

I do not believe that abortion is always a horrible thing. I think it is frequently the best choice.

Have you seen http://www.imnotsorry.net/ ?

I love this site, and I think it's pretty much about what you're talking about.

[cynatnite]

198. I get sick of women being portrayed has having abortions on a whim. n/t

[HEyHEY]

199. Hey, it ain't easy for the guy either. I know it's harder for the woman. But people forget this

I went through an abortion. Doctor was worried about the health of the... well not even fetus. We had the procedure a couple weeks into the pregnancy. The doc was worried about some medication she was on when the child was conceived. When she realized it was the right thing to do she was devastated. She'd had an unwanted pregnancy terminated when she was young. So this would be another one to go through. It's hard and I think any man who's gone though it can identify with women much more on the situation. I remember waking up in the middle of the night to the sound of her quietly sobbing the night before we went in. It broke my heart and I can't even think about it now without tearing up.

Before it happened I never imagined how hard it actually is. As tough as it was for me it must have been so much worse for her.

[dorkulon]

200. Agreed 100%.

I was really disheartened when the Dem spinmeisters decided to start calling it "a sad, tragic choice".

What it is is an option, period.

[heliarc]

201. K&R for bravery and righteousness. nt

[madmax]

202. It's our choice, our business, our bodies

100% agree with you. No drama needed or explanations necessary.

[DesertFlower]

206. i agree. nt

[Faux pas]

207. Standing O

[SemperEadem]

209. I whole-heartedly agree

no woman owes anyone who is not directly impacted by anything in her life an explanation just because someone asks a question. The answer always is "it's not fit for you to know or weigh in on anything that concerns me. In other words: it's none of your gotdamb business".

[lupinella]

214. K&R!

My body, my choice!

[WinkyDink]

216. Social pressure.

[Fire1]

217. I agree, cali. Moreover, it's way too much information and

as you said, "it's nobody's business!!" Plus, who cares???!!!

[Mad_Dem_X]

219. Couldn't agree more - it's no one's business

but the woman's. Thank you for sharing your story.

[northoftheborder]

220. Because women are constantly being attacked, demonized, punished for having abortions, for thinking

about having an abortion, for being in favor of abortions.:mad: Perhaps some find they need to defend themselves, to put a human face on the situation, to try to show that they are feeling, normal, intelligent, moral people doing the best they can to take care of themselves, their family, and their children. I don't understand the moralist viewpoint of some of you who are attacking women for telling their stories. Not everyone is comfortable with sharing those feelings and events, but I'm glad some do. It's necessary for some of those radical, uncaring, mean, yes - devilish people who are anti-abortion, anti-woman hear these stories.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

221. Why? Because people get !!emotional!! about "Babies". Easy. Simplistic.

In comparison, to the mental stereotypes of Mass Consciousness (even in many women's minds), "Women" are some group of objects, often seen as sexualized commodities, objects acted upon by men, useful as caretakers of baser physical functions like Sex, Babymaking, and Cleaning Toilets--or as Victims. We are represented to ourselves as such in the imagery and language that surrounds us.

But we are not represented as quite human and rarely identified with, rarely conceptualized or imagined as interesting, heroic, compelling, worthy individuals, deserving of life, honor or dignity outside of those roles in Society's mind.

[Iris]

257. well said. n/t

[BlancheSplanchnik]

265. thanks Iris!

:)

I really appreciate it when anyone gets my point!

:hi:

[Iris]

266. You're welcome!

I enjoy seeing things I've thought written articulately by someone else!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

268. Me too :) I love knowing someone who's thinking along the same lines

This is a subject I would love to research "officially"...... Seems SO clear to me, that our concept of ourselves affects the place we take in life, and that the images we base those self-interpretations on are very much created by what we see modeled around us.

Continuing that train of thought, what we believe about others affects our actions/attitudes towards them, and that anyone in a position to act on perceptions of another will create those perceptions according to how they conceptualize the Group that person belongs to. If they can't conceive of the person as a Person, if they have no affinity, no point of IDENTIFICATION with the person, then...woe unto that person! That's why the subject, Media Constructs of "Women" --so egregiously limited , sexualized and contemptuous as they are, AND so ubiquitous-- is such a fraught issue for me!!

Maybe someday when I'm closer to a University so I can take some classes......... :)

[Iris]

269. It is a deep subject

And even when you try to get away from the construct, it's still with you and it's just a conscious choice to try to de-tangle yourself.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

270. there's a conversation that needs to happen....

addressing our own internalized misogyny.

Not easy to address; looking through my own personal prism, I think there's an element of that fueling my own interest in women's rights.

[Warren DeMontague]

259. If you think this has anything to do with "babies", they've already won.

It's important to remind people that this




is NOT this




If you're irritated with relatives cooing over their infants, or kids screaming in restaurants, or you're mad that many people do feel emotional about actual babies, fine, whatever-

but that's not really what this is about.

[lapislzi]

223. + 1 TRILLION!

Your story and my story are identical. Thank you for telling it.

[hamsterjill]

228. I agree with you 100%. Absolutely right on!

End of story. No one else's business. No further text required.

[felix_numinous]

230. The goalposts about this issue,

like every other human rights issue, have been moved, by the use of shame. It is a RW 'conservative' tool--to make people ashamed to stand up for their basic human rights.

Women should be ashamed for liking sex. People should be ashamed for standing their ground, never mind seeking pleasure! The result of this regressive paradigm are masochistic parents, sadistic and masochistic and sociopathic kids--if we do not balance our attitudes about ENJOYING this life, without associating punishments with joy, a balanced and healthy society will never manifest.

We are the women who raise children to have balanced and healthy attitudes about their own bodies, who demonstrate and teach and represent what it is like to know what good personal boundaries are. We raise our sons, love our men and women, with the knowledge and wisdom passed down to us from generations before, to be loving, respectful and compassionate!

Healthy behavior is the foundation of SELF GOVERNANCE, while an unhealthy dysfunctional paradigm results in a society that requires more law enforcement. The demonization of our basic needs and desires is (unfortunately) a well worn path towards oppression and social decay, so I applaud this poster for pointing out what the real issue is about--sentience.

If the most primal relationship we have in this life is with someone who is ashamed of who she is, this wound is passed on to the next generation.

What brings me joy is to see people standing their ground, I am so tired of seeing images of weak women, women as objects, plastic barbies, women cowing to disgusting repressive men and having to take drugs just to survive, daughters growing up with so much shame and danger to themselves, in a world where predatory behavior is sanctioned, where originality and uniqueness is repressed. We cannot allow this paradigm to manifest further!

[Warren DeMontague]

242. Shouldn't need to, although I did respect what Jackie Speer did on the House Floor.

Unfortunately, we still have to fight this stupid battle.

[quaker bill]

260. Why is it anyone's business?

While I absolutely agree that this decision requires no justification or explanation, why does anyone need or deserve to know?