Honest question. How can a Democrat be a Libertarian?

[rhett o rick]

I run into DU members on occasion that are Libertarians. How can they be Democrats?

[Odin2005]

1. "Libertarian" is a very broad label.

I consider myself a Left-Libertarian, which grades into Anarchism and Anarcho-Socialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

[rhett o rick]

45. Thanks for the link. I was not aware of that distinction. I admire Noam Chomsky. nm

[Odin2005]

47. IMO the notion that the Left is necessarily "pro-state" is a myth that must be dispelled if...

...one wants leftism to take off in America. The Right has taken advantage of the authoritarian evil that was the USSR to portray all the Left as authoritarian statists. In fact in Capitalism Corporate Power and State Power cannot be separated, they are aspects of the same evil beast, economic power IS political power.

An example is the Gilded Age of the late 19th Century, which is often portrayed by the Statist Left as an example of the evils of Lassez Faire. In fact that is totally wrong, the government was the tool with which the robber barons protected their power.

[rhett o rick]

48. So the TeaBaggers are not wrong when they say dont trust the government.

The government can and has done evil. However, the TeaBaggers are following the corporate propaganda to dismantle the portion of government that controls corporations. They arent trying to dismantle the portion of government that is controlling the populace.

[Hydra]

55. There aren't any teabaggers

All of them were corporate supported mouthpieces.

The Libertarians that support destroying the gov't both have it right and wrong at the same time.

On the one hand, a gov't that is so small we could drown it in a bathtub can't fight wars for profit around the world and create a perfect police state.

On the other hand, with no gov't power, then there are no laws protecting the citizens from bad food, environmental damage, etc.

[madinmaryland]

2. Well, there are the pro-smoking folks and the pro-gun folks. nt

[Pancho Sanza]

3. I don't understand how a real Democrat can NOT be a libertarian

now I'm -very- insecure........

edit to add: the more I read/hear/think about this, the more I think I'm just nuts: if there's a rational summary of this, it's way beyond my ken

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

[WinkyDink]

19. Because we want to help the poor rather than tell them to fend for themselves?

Democrats are the ANTITHESIS of Libertarians, who define "self-centered."

[rhett o rick]

39. I agree Winky. nm

[sendero]

27. Libertarians..

... are correct about everything but business and economics, where their policies have basically ruined the country.

You have to separate BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS from everything else Libertarians stand for, which I totally agree with. It's just that their ridiculous ideas about free markets and regulation are PROVEN SIMPLY WRONG.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. Depends on how you define "libertarian."

But what we usually think of as libertarians, i.e., those who believe that government regulation of any kind is generally bad and that the "free market" must control all economic activities (I guess you'd call them economic libertarians, with the followers of Ayn Rand at the lunatic fringe of that ideology) would have a tough time calling themselves Democrats.

[rhett o rick]

40. I agree but I run into economic libertarians in DU. nm

[w8liftinglady]

5. some may consider themselves "Civil Libertarians"

while disagreeing with the fiscal aspect.
I know,because in my earlier political life,I was a Randian Objectivist.I quickly came to my senses,but still believe the premises of freedom of sexual choice among consenting adults,drug legalization/decriminalization,decreased government intervention into private matters(i.e.-internet,communications,free speech),decreased military presence in other countries(See Ron Paul's activism when he was a true Libertarian)
It's ok to agree with some similar beliefs without being a registered Libertarian.They're greedy,but they aren't all bad.

[Brilliantrocket]

9. How can anyone support the war on drugs?

The government should focus on policing corporations rather than trying to put people in jail for smoking a plant.

[w8liftinglady]

13. II'm just surprised they haven't figured out how to get rich from it

My partner was a military and civilian cop for 30 years.He is TOTALLY for decriminalization."It will eliminate 90% of the crime if people have safe,legal ways of obtaining and using illegal substances"
...the prison system will lose a chunk of change,however.

[roamer65]

18. Marijuana, absolute legalization...yes. Harder substances...highly controlled medical supervision.

I like how the Netherlands handles heroin addiction. The addicts go to gov't clinics to get safe, contolled methadone/heroin doses and are counseled by gov't doctors.

Your partner is right. Just legalizing pot would take a load off from them to focus on more serious crime issues.

[WinkyDink]

20. Are you kidding? Why do you think corporations are IN the Middle East/Afhanistan/Pakistan?

[w8liftinglady]

22. lol...I should have clarified...HERE!

[area51]

35. Is he a member of LEAP?

I've heard a guy from LEAP do a radio show on KPFT.

[rhett o rick]

41. They are getting rich. Cheney owns prisons. nm

[onehandle]

6. There is the Libertarian philosophy and there is the Libertarian Party.

The Libertarian Party are a bunch of uber-selfish, not so closet Republicans, most of which are racist fucks.

Democrats who are also Libertarian either are only embracing the 'freedom' aspect of the philosophy or they are fooling themselves.

[WingDinger]

7. I am an EX libertarian. It speaks to adolescents. Then you get a brain, moran.

[bluestate10]

8. By your definition, or by a realistic definition? nt.

[RandomThoughts]

10. It depends what you think a libertarian is.

And at what level, pure freedom is anarchy. So most people have restrictions based on concepts of what is better. A pure anarchist can do what ever they want in there view of society.

However the state can also become an enforcer of some rules so others can be anarchist. (those against the wto are not anarchist, you could make the case the wto is though)


If the goal of a group is to apply rules to others so they can do what every they want, then they are anarchist. And worse they use law like a Machiavellian would.



Most libertarians want corporate governance, one share of stock one vote, for ruling society. Although some want to be able to do what ever they want, by some claim of power by money, so they want complete freedom for themselves by enslaving others under money restrictions to what they can do.

Basically if you think you are special you can make the case you are rich by divine choice, and you are allowed to do anything since not fallen from grace, and any evil you do is covered by grace, then they think all the suffering people are not loved by God and are suppose to serve them. They think they are special in that group.

Pretty simple stuff.

Some are also against government because it is corrupt in many places, but the fix is to fix government not remove it.

Many libertarians are actually against government controls that are corrupt or nanny state also, so there are many types of libertarians. Including corporate governance two tier justice systems, that are not just.


If you can make all penalties by status or money, and all things you own by money, then the only thing that decides if you can do something is the amount of money you have.

From there you can do anything no matter who it could hurt, since there is no moral component in aquiering money.

[Dark]

11. The same way anyone else can. They agree w/ dems on enough of the policies that they vote for them

They pretty much have to pick one of the two parties -- the dems or the nutjobs.

It's gotten a bad rap lately cause many republicans flocked to the "Libertarian" label cause the repub one was so tarnished.

[Cleita]

12. Maybe because they aren't Democrats?

Greenies, Libertarians and even Republicans have been welcomed at DU in the past as long as they are well-behaved. I don't know if that still holds, but that was the way it was when I first joined DU. If I am wrong, then I apologize to the administrators and moderators.

[roamer65]

14. Because there are left-wing libertarians, just as there are right-wing ones.

The left-wing ones are much more sane than the right-wing ones...usually.

I consider myself a left libertarian on many issues. Government should be involved where it can make the process more effective and affordable for the people...such as health care. I am against most forms of gun control. Balanced budgets should be the norm, but should be balanced on the backs of the wealthy through a much more progressive tax structure. Etc, etc...blah, blah.

[bluestate10]

24. You know?

I don't disagree. Maybe I am a libertarian. Since admitting that possibility means me giving up my status as a democrat, do you want to start our own political party? Instead of a donkey or elephant, we can have a picture of the deceased comedian Marty Feldman in bug eye mode as our standard.

[bluestate10]

15. You have paranoid and selfish people confused with people that think

an individual can make a difference. What you see as libertarianism today is simply a bastardization of modern republicanism. That association alone makes libertarianism as known today null and void.

A true libertarian would in fact be an ultimate democrat. That person would feel that government has a legitimate role in many areas of people's lives, but a limited role in others. Democrats that are pro abortion are libertarian in that area, because they feel that it is an individual woman's decision on whether she gives birth or abort, not government's decision. Defining what is a true democrat and what is not a true democrat is just as slippery as defining what is and is not a true libertarian.

[rhett o rick]

49. Thanks for the thoughts. nm

[X_Digger]

16. Because politics isn't a one-dimensional affair, even if there are only two parties.

That's why sites like politicalcompass.org have at least a two axis representation.

[Karmadillo]

17. These days, a Democrat can be a Republican, so why not?

nt

[WinkyDink]

21. Heh!

[craigmatic]

23. The only way is to solely focus on the social issues part of libertarianism.

[notesdev]

25. Not as hard as it looks

If you're against the various wars that this country prosecutes, the waste of so much of its strength in dominating others worldwide, think pot should be legal, think people should leave gays alone to pursue enjoyment of life as they see fit, think individuals should be able to make their own decisions, and in general think that it's a bad thing to have one person impose his will on another by force, then you can be libertarian (note not capitalized) and a Democrat both.

[Puregonzo1188]

26. Well, for starters the Democratic Party is a political party, not a political philosophy.

The better question is how could one be a libertarian and a Democrat. Of course, first we'd have to determine how we defined libertarian--I'm assuming you mean in the American "small government" sense as opposed to the Bakunin/Chomsky sense of the word.

I mean the US is more or less a two-party system and there are more than two political philosophies. Someone who is a libertarian would theoretically have issues with both the Democratic and the Republican parties, and barring support for a third party (like the Libertarian Party) would either have to split their support between the two parties on a candidate by candidate basis or decide which party better embodies his ideals. I guess someone could feel like the Democrats did that more than the Republicans. In fact, if I recall in 08 one of the big libertarian magazine (Reason???) had all of their editors list who they were endorsing for President and more picked Obama than McCain.

[w8liftinglady]

33. many of the Libertarians I know hate the way the fiscal Repub party has been hijacked

by the Tea party.There is no way they'd vote Christian conservative.They vote Libertarian-which is growing in Texas.

For all their bravado,the Tea Party is definitely NOT the Libertarian mindset.

Many of the Libertarians I knew were very open-minded.Most were agnostic or atheistic,and all were after the bottom line.Greed was a common denominator with the Libertarian Party at my college.It was hard for me to stomach,especially as I began to care for the poor and sick.

That being said,they were a "live-and-let-live" bunch...except when it involved them.They would have turned their backs on the Tea Party Patriots.

[Puregonzo1188]

46. I feel like a lot of the Christian Conservative types have hijacked the word libertarian.

A lot of the people who represent themselves as libertarians are merely fiscal conservatives and totally for (or ambivalent about) the wars of aggression, the national security state, LGBT rights, etc.

It's very odd, particularly when you consider the most successful Presidential candidate for the libertarian party ran as a "low tax liberal" in favor of a nuclear freeze.

I'm not sure when libertarian became another word for rightwing nutjob.

[rhett o rick]

50. Would Ayn Rand and/or Allen Greenspan be considered Libertarians? nm

[affrayer]

28. I Agree...

How can they be Democrats?

I agree...libertarians are nothing more than right wingers in hiding.

While they claim to be fiscally "conservative" and socially "liberal" the truth is that fiscal economic policy precludes funding for social liberal policies. In other words, the claims of liberal aspects by libertarians is pure hog wash.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Libertarians range from very well of center to very right of center

that is why.

The real noisy ones are righties though....

[MicaelS]

30. Easy if they are Left-Libertarians...

Not saying I agree with some of the Left-Libertarian ideology, but if you read the Wikipedia article, it explains the Left-Libertarian position on things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

[The Straight Story]

31. Would you consider "your body, your choice" to be a libertarian position? (nt)

[awoke_in_2003]

32. How can a Democrat be a Libertarian?"...

going by the traditional definition of the two words, they cannot be the same. Libertarians are all about "fuck you- I got mine"

[Forkboy]

34. I'm stumped, because every Libertarian I've met is a selfish douchebag.

[bluestate10]

44. You met the conservative variety.

Some libertarians believe in self reliances, but also believe in helping their neighbors. I am pro efficient government, so I have issues with both the conservative and liberal libertarian view.

[Warren DeMontague]

36. People confuse "libertarianism" the many-faceted philosophy with the big-L Libertarian Party for one

Secondly, when people define themselves as "libertarians", it's important to know what they're talking about. Often it's defined not in economic terms, such as "I'm libertarian because I think roads and sewer services should be privatized" but rather in contrast to an authoritarian worldview, particularly on social issues. For instance, supporting equal rights for GLBT citizens, or pot legalization, would be considered "libertarian" viewpoints.

Often people identify as "left libertarian", which should not be confused with the Libertarian Party, or even allegedly "Libertarian" ideas like abolishing the Fed. I consider myself left-libertarian, and I damn sure am a Democrat as well.

[Hugabear]

37. Same reason that Joe Lieberman called himself a Democrat

Apparently, you can call yourself a Democrat and believe anyway you want.

But the non-snarky answer, as others have pointed out, is that there's a huge difference between "civil libertarian" and Libertarian-with-the-capital-L. The former places a huge emphasis on civil liberties, which isn't a bad thing. The latter, however, believes in a "fuck-them-all, let them fend for themselves" attitude.

[rhett o rick]

42. Thanks for the explanation. So John Stossel is the latter. nm

[eridani]

38. Seems to me that libertarian trends among Dems are mainly on social issues n/t

[seabeyond]

43. like most of us do not want church to dictate our rules, we dont want mommy to dictate our rules

either.

i tend to libertarian in a lot of behavior. for personal freedoms and rights. does not make me a libertarian. just a libertarian democrat. then you have some democrats that are authoritarian.

[TheKentuckian]

51. A Civil Libertarian tends to believe that one of government's principle roles is

to ensure an atmosphere where rights are affirmed rather than simply espoused or worse violated.

There is the strong belief that our system of government is granted powers by its citizens rather than having to be constrained from infinite reach by code. It is the reverse, that all freedoms not specifically restrained from the individual by common consent within the constitution is free to the individual.

There is the belief that government has no power or force outside the context of the Constitution. There is no power or authority that an office holder, official, officer, or public servant has that is not derived from the base law of the land.

I don't really see how one is a Democrat in about any variety that doesn't broadly share that view of government in covenant with its people and the source of it's authority.

[TheKentuckian]

52. Also, let me tell ya, there are many economic libertarians or deep sympathizers in the tent

These are the folks I don't see how we are to mesh with and give the majority of the population any representation action as a a firm and honest broker.

[Still a Democrat]

53. Libertarians are liberal on social issues and foreign affairs, but conservative on economics

Their views on economics are so different than that of Democrats, it's hard to imagine the two coexisting.

[rhett o rick]

56. Is supporting unemployment benefits or raising the min wage, social or economic issues??? nm

[Still a Democrat]

57. Economic

And a libertarian would oppose the very existence of either.

[bluestate10]

58. I disagree. I say both are social issues.

In that they insure a stable society. If people do not get unemployment payments and go hungry as a rule, not much time will pass before revolt happens. If employers are allowed to pay an employee what the employer wants to pay and there is no minimum for that payment, some employers could chose to pay almost nothing and cause social disruption by making that choice.

I find it difficult to separate some social issues from economic ones. Yes paying unemployment and a minimum wage costs money, but having food riots and large parts of society shutdown would be infinitely more costly.

[aikoaiko]

54. To a point, Its not so hard if you support civil liberties.