Men falling behind women (in school)

[lumberjack_jeff]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41928806/ns/business-us_business/

...you have to work differently with boys. You can't endlessly threaten boys. "If you do this, you're bad. If you do this you'll never be a success." Many schools are based on threat. "If you don't do what we say, your life will turn out badly". The problem is that girls believe that, and feel criticized and feel terrible about themselves ...(but) they'll work. Boys did in and say 'screw you'. They'll fight you. They don't want to be dominated in that way.

[comtec]

1. there's something incredibly sexist in that but im not sure what...

it's just a sense I have.
That it's bad for boys to challenge the system?
I did, and I thrived, and excelled, and I began to understand.
why is being passive a god trait?
*sighs* oh well. se la vie

[lumberjack_jeff]

2. It isn't so much that being passive is a good trait

it's that teachers can't identify with the boys who, in general, do "challenge the system".

I recently read this essay and found it fascinating.

http://mgtow.net/ipbforum/index.php?showtopic=505

The rest of the site is a bit of a lost cause, because like most sites dedicated to men's issues, they needlessly conflate it with conservatism.

Mens issues should not be relegated to the right pole in politics.

[flvegan]

3. How specifically did you find that "essay" fascinating?

[CreekDog]

4. that's the question i find fascinating

:D

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. This, for one.

In my life I have found that my father's politically incorrect perspective does not only apply to intimate relationships.

I remember an incident with a teacher when I was 11 years old. My female math(s) teacher had graded a test the whole class had taken and had distributed our test papers with our scores. It was a 20 question test. My grade was 95%. It appeared that I had got one of the answers wrong.

I was a child prodigy in math(s) and it was unusual for me to get a wrong answer when doing tests with students my own age. I rechecked the answer that had been marked wrong. I found that my answer was correct.

I brought this to the attention of the teacher. I asked her to re-grade my paper and credit me with a score of 100%.

She checked her scoring sheet and it showed an answer different than mine. I said that the answer sheet had to be wrong and that I would do the problem on the black board to show why my answer was correct.

She flew into a rage. She started yelling at me in front of the class and attacked me for even suggesting that the answer sheet could possibly be wrong. She said that every teacher who used the same text book we used would be using the same answer sheets we were using and that "they" would never allow an error on an answer sheet which is so widely used in schools.

I calmly offered again to do the problem on the black board so that I could show the correct answer.

Then, to my amazement, she began to argue that there could be more than one correct answer to a math problem and that the answer given on the answer sheet was probably more correct than the answer I had got.

We were working with numerical calculations, not with the math of quantum physics, and I told her there was only one correct answer in this case and that it was different than what was shown on the answer sheet. I offered again to work it out on the board.

Her response was to send me to the principals office for discipline.

As fate would have it, this particular principal was a gifted math teacher. He allowed me to do the problem on paper and acknowledged that my answer was correct and that the answer given on the answer sheet was incorrect.

He and I agreed that many students would have been given a grade 5% lower than they had earned.

He then explained to me that he was not going to require, or even ask, the teacher to regrade the test papers. He said that the rightness or wrongness of the answer had now become a side issue and that the central issue was that I had challenged the authority of the teacher in the classroom.

The resolution was to be that I would be required to apologise to the teacher for disrupting her class and no mention was to be made of the correct answer to the disputed question. If I did not want to apologise I would be suspended from school and would only be allowed to return when I was ready to apologise unconditionally.

I have three sons. This is consistent with my school experience as a child and as a parent. The wellbeing of the teacher is a far bigger consideration to school administrators than the wellbeing of male students.

Questioning, challenging and independent thought are not valued in school. Even learning subject matter is secondary to classroom management. As a poster recently put it in the context of Wikipedia "argumentation is a guy thing".

[comtec]

6. that story just.... blows my mind... and sounds WAY too familiar

adults seem to think that just because some one is not yet 30, they are stupid.

Teens are in fact very perceptive and often a hell of alot smarter (but often lacking wisdom and tact) than we adults.

I had similar issues when I was in school, and it's let to a lifetime of distrust of authority and 'the system' in general.

that teacher probably had more than a few other issues on the side that had nothing to do with the boy, he was simply the trigger.

[CreekDog]

7. do you propose equalizing this or not?

and likewise, do you propose equalizing the wage gap or not?

[comtec]

8. I dont think anyone here approves of the wage gap

on a strictly pragmatic level it means less money to come into a two income home.
the gap is bullshit invented by companies because they're sexist assholes and we all have a DO NOT TALK clause in our employment contracts that prevents us from talking to one another about how much we get paid, or be fired!

The only reason for the gap is to be able to abuse half the population. No thinking person wants that gap, as it hurts everyone in the economy.

i suggest you read what people have posted for the rest of your answer.

sadly i dont think girls are doing better in class (co ed) because more attention and encouragement is being given to them to succeed, but that boys, in this study, are being punished for not being passive enough.

both genders are loosing out.
IMHO we should look into separating the genders in school until college, or the last two years of high school.

Look at the japanese system, women are eating men for lunch in the world, because they are being encouraged to excel and succeed as much as the boys now. that strikes me a a good formula to force a society to evolve and work together.

I personally love a woman I can compete (or better work with as an equal) with on a intellectual basis. That is something about my Exwife that I love, and truly miss. She is nearly 20 points smarter than me but never had that intelligence encouraged and the dutch school system made blossoming that intelligence impossible. But that wasnt because of her gender, that was because of how they do things there.

[lumberjack_jeff]

9. "Equalizing"

The word invokes images of something unattainable in real life.

There are huge and obvious problems with the outcomes of boys in school. These problems are apparent both compared by the outcomes of their fathers as well as their sisters. There are many things that could be done to improve their school performance, but socially we don't appear ready to do them because boys are the chosen scapegoats for the perceived sins of the previous generation.

I'm motivated in solving a problem, not in distributing justice.

What I'm getting at is illustrated by your post - conflating other issues. Bringing in external unrelated distracting issues is a ubiquitous hallmark of gender discussion. The educational problems faced by boys can and should stand alone. There's no reason to rise to your bait. Your implication is that keeping boys out of college is a useful tool in solving the problem higher in your consciousness.

If you want to discuss the wage gap, the reasons for it, the ways to change it and flaws with the popular reporting of it, by all means start a thread on that topic.

Don't get me wrong: the issues are related. The gross distortions of wage data provide cover to continue to institutionally prioritize girls in education.