Reply #16: I must say, I agree. I think Moore is good, unbelievably good, at energizing the base..

[ObamaKerryDem]

..or at least the more ideologically set element of it. Whether it's in regard to an election, or an issue, he is great at communicating the message and getting people involved on an activist level. But I think you are right when you say he's not a help with the center/independents. I've lost count of the independents, even more seemingly liberal leaning ones, I've seen around and/or talked to personally, who seemed to show at least some sympathy, at least on a human level, for Bush after those parts of Fahrenheit. And although I believe most of what was in the film was true (if not that part, then the others, particurally the Iraq and Flint parts, which as you pointed out, were excellent), it kind of played into a lot of RW memes and criticisms, the whole "Angry Left" meme, for instance. And like it or not, most of the people who liked the film were already set for JK anyway. I notice how Obama didn't really "use" Moore either. Totally different set of circumstances by that point, '08 vs. '04 in many ways of course, but still I think you're right. Plus JK (like Obama) just strikes me as the kind of person who would want to check it all out, outside the claim in the film, before forming a solid opinion. His background in law probably did come into it, which of course is commendable as he did take a risk in that remark--however objective--of turning off people in the base who were in LOVE with Moore and that movie. Moore even made a remark in that book he wrote just before the 2008 election, in his advice to Obama, on how he could LOSE the race, "distance yourself from me", was on of the items on the list, then he referred back to JK saying that in '04. That was right around the time "Slacker Uprising" came out. So it's not hard to believe that it probably WAS payback. Moore does seem to have a shorter fuse when it comes to things like that, he doesn't like to be rebuffed it seems, even indirectly. :)

But the fact that he turned off even some commited liberal Democratic voters with that part..is even more eye opening. And speaks to the downside of his style and approach.

I used to be a really big fan of his and I still agree with a lot of things he says, though I think he takes it too far sometimes and has been really unfair in his criticisms at points, like with JK and more recently with Obama. He's been really, really harsh on him lately. I too have had my criticisms--most everyone has, that's natural and really if you think about it, a necessary part of even a support of someone, that they HEAR from the base, etc--but Moore doesn't seem to be missing a single opportunity to take a swipe. Like recently on his Twitter, after Kloppenburg won the race in WI (before the recount...grr..but that's a whole other thread! lol), he tweeted something like "This proves that we don't need Obama. O=Voter depression". Yeah it's a fair point that voter dissapointment with things like the HCR debate, etc made a difference in MA in 2010 (though I would argue that Obama coming to MA HELPED Coakley, who was as much as 12 pts as I recall behind in some of the polls before that after Brown started taking the lead) and in the midterms, but I think that's far too harsh a statement. And that's just the beginning of it. He's repeatedly basically compared Obama to Bush, on multiple occassions.

I also didn't like how he beat up on Chris Dodd in "Capitalism: A Love Story". Don't get me wrong, I think it was a great film in so many ways and I'm not saying Dodd was without any criticism at all...but it just felt like piling on at a time and point when Dodd was already getting it from a lot of angles and feeling the pressure to step down (which he of course did). I just didn't feel like it was necessary or effective. It's almost like it was Moore's way of saying "See? I'm critical of Democrats too!" Kicking up the heels of his Green party roots, lol. Of course I was already irritated with him about what he said about JK in "Slacker" by that point, but just another example. :)

I still like a lot of Moore's work, but I'm not enamored with him as I used to be...and see the criticisms. I don't think we should be the other side of the same coin to the inflammatory people on the Right...and some of what he does runs that risk, IMO. I guess things like what I pointed out and what you also pointed out in your post brought me to that point.