Reply #1: yeah I mostly agree with that

[limpyhobbler]

That was a good post and I agree that we should "fight for a world without bosses and wage slavery, in which everyone has material security and access to the good things in life, leisure time, and the opportunity to contribute to society under their own volition".

At the same time we can also support progressive labor unions. Even the "liberal" ones . If they are attempting to mitigate the oppression inherent in the wage system, to make it less painful, that is a good thing. Let's support organized labor's efforts to improve the quality of life for it's members, both on the job and off. It will also have a positive ripple effect for some non-unionized workers.

Labor does not "accept the premise that the boss is entitled to ... control every aspect of the workplace." A big part of what unions do is to negotiate over working conditions, to try to give workers more control of the workplace.

I agree with the theoretical goals expressed in the original post, and I also think that "good jobs" are better than "shitty jobs".

To reach the end of the wage system as we know it, you might be talking a 500 year transition. It has been described as being analogous to the transition from a feudal economy to capitalism, which was over hundreds of years. Most people don't want to wait that long. Or, also that might be a fantasy that never happens.

Anyways even if one thinks a completely non-hierarchical, non-oppressive system is right around the corner, there is no conflict between supporting good jobs while also advocating for schemes of employee ownership and control. Achieving the goals expressed in the original post would probably be easier in a society with a strong existing labor movement. If we didn't have one, we would be trying to build one. Let's build a new one anyway, but also work with the existing one. Use every tool. Previous generations fought and sacrificed alot to give us institutions like unions and democratic forms of governments. We can occupy existing institutions, might as well.

We can advocate for better jobs and more jobs while we also sew the seeds for the egalitarian economy of tomorrow. We can establish local cooperatives for goods and services including quality foods and health care. We can establish mutual aid societies to provide services where existing institutions are failing. We can advocate for more democratic workplaces while also advocating for cooperatives when possible. In my opinion the two goals are not in conflict. They are two parts of the same platform and successes in one arena contribute to progress in the other arena. Do you know what I'm saying?