Dennis...Hello?!?...Vermont HAS a military: VNG, 4000 strong.

[farmbo]

http://www.vtguard.com/

http://leahy.senate.gov/vermont/guard.html

Vermont has a long citizen-soldier tradition that goes back to our nation's founding, when Ethan Allen and the Green Mountains boys fought valiantly to take Ticonderoga and helped guarantee our independence. Today, the Vermont National Guard numbers around 4000 proud men and women, divided between the Army and Air National Guard. Vermont, with its 600,000 people, represents one of the highest Guard per capita participation rates of any state in the country.

The Vermont Air National Guard recently served in Saudi Arabia providing air cover over Iraq, while various units of the Vermont Army Guard has sent personnel to Bosnia and across the globe.
<snip>

Your mocking tone belies a lack of rudimentary research into Vermont's budget.
Although it was unclear precisely what point you were trying to make in attacking the Good Doctor, it would appear that you owe a sincere apology to the Green Mountain Boys (and Women) of the Vermont National Guard.

[RobertSeattle]

1. But doesn't Uncle Sam Pay for the National Guard?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Federal Government pay for the National Guard in regards to both salaries and equipement?

[XanaDUer]

4. Yes Robert,

Thus the word "national" in National Guard.

[farmbo]

5. You better tell the Vermont Dept of Finance about your theory!

http://www.state.vt.us/fin/Fin%20Budget%20Documents/2003%20ebrs.pdf


They are paying out over $10 million in for FY 2003 to the "National" Guard. (See line items for "Military" and "Defender General").

This does NOT even include the state funded Homeland Security mandates.

[RobertSeattle]

10. Are you sure there isn't 10 milion coming in as revenue from the Feds?

Perhaps it is a mixture, but I'm pretty sure almost all the funding for the NG is Federal money. The Feds may "pay" the states to operate the national guard.

[Terwilliger]

14. on page 18

"Military" is listed as 2,766,479

on page 26, the total budget is listed as 1,159,347,855

lessee...that's... about 1 quarter of 1 percent of the budget.

[Darranar]

19. What's the ratio of national budget to Vermont's budget?

Anyway, Kucinich does have a point; There are concerns of the federal government that the state doesn't have. Anyway, Vermont is a RURAL state; it does not face the problems that the urban areas do, therefore saving a ton of money.

[userdave2061]

31. What are the problems that the urban areas face that rural areas don't

Street lights? Sidewalks? More people?

[Darranar]

32. Yep...

along with more rampant sickness, more pollution, more trash, etc.

[charlie]

39. Defender General is not a defense related office

It's the dept that provides publicly funded legal counsel to indigents.

http://www.defgen.state.vt.us/mission.htm

[Terwilliger]

2. the "Good Doctor"

you capitalize this like its a campaign slogan

What is the percentage of Vermont GDP that the VT guard takes from the budget?

[Woodstock]

6. What percent does Ohio contribute?

Kucinich is a REPRESENTATIVE for the state of Ohio. Kucinich is one of HUNDREDS of such representatives. He gives INPUT on these matters - which is often ignored.

For him to get all high and mighty implying a governor of a small state (gee, wasn't Arkansas a small state? and didn't a governor from that state called Bill, now what's his name again? Clinton? do pretty well as president?) is less qualified than himself is LAUGHABLE.

[JohnKleeb]

12. not trying to be harsh or anything even remotely like it

but I think Arkansas's population is about 4X the amount of Vermont. Just saying and trying to be fair.

[Woodstock]

20. However

My guess is Vermont is wealthier and in some ways more complex to govern than Arkansas. However, the real point some of us have been trying to make is, this is SILLY - comparing states and roles like this. Both Dean and Kucinich are qualified. But one chose to mock the other during a national debate. And on shaky ground (but then again, mocking, whether shaky ground or not, tends to backfire on the one who mocks.

THAT is the issue here.

[JohnKleeb]

24. I dunno I am trying to be fair

Heh all states are complex to governor. Well sorry about what happened but my candiate is repeatly and I hate to lament is ignored by the media, if you think I am full of it I am not, I read the frontpage everyday I can and I saw an article on the patriot act recently well you know who wasnt mentioned and his desire to repeal it. Sorry about the mocking. You mentioned mocking well I got a little story and I think it is rather sad. Recently I did some research work on Wellstone. Now I saw the Dean message board and I saw mocking there like mocking Kucinich's ideas. I know a thing or two about mocking, DK may have been wrong but I for one think hes mocked by being ignored in the media. Shame really that a man who was one of the big anti war people in congress, speaker at an anti Iraq war rally doesnt get attention.

[Woodstock]

26. No worries here

That was my point - if one state has a bigger population, well another has more money, so why try to split hairs. Everyone up there was qualified. So I say to the candidates, let's move on and discuss the issues, not get personal. I was just disappointed that he chose to go this route. I hope he reconsiders and doesn't make mocking a part of his regular routine during national debates. And that goes for all of them.

[JohnKleeb]

28. agreed

but I did see some stuff that got me upset last night. I know he was wrong in his tactic but I for one am sick and tired of seeing him ignored by the media. I think one could argue had he entered earier he would be doing better.

[tinanator]

40. dont underestimate Arkansas

I doubt Vermont could supply as many slithering demons as Arkansas has unleashed on the country. Those demons do all the governing, and they hold all the offices, and they have a lot of money. Vermont clearly has many upstanding traditions and outstanding politicians, maybe even a distinct species of demon of different form, but you have to hand it to Arkansas, as a state, for contributing so much to the landscape of the 90's. Beware.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Woodstock]

17. Rude and inappropriate remark, Terwilliger

I got your point. You completely missed my point. That's OK.

But telling me to answer your question or "throttle my hole" was inappropriate.

Just an FYI since you seem to be uninformed. Here's the way it works here: One poster does not tell another poster what to say or when. And it's rare to see a poster be as rude to another poster as you just were.

[Terwilliger]

37. you haven't seen much of me, then

You attacked Kucinich for him pointing out that balancing the budget of a small state is not terribly impressive. You retorted with "what does he know about it?" He knows more than you...you just dont like it when your boy is questioned.

[sangh0]

3. Weak. Very weak

I'm talking about both your argument, and the VNG

[Woodstock]

7. No, it's not

Dean was the chief executive of Vermont for 11 years. He had experience with dealing with the troops and their families in his state and with national security in an executive capacity.

Kucinich is a former mayor of Cleveland and now a representative from Ohio. One representative of HUNDREDS. Whose views are often dismissed as extreme.

For him to get all high and mighty by dissing Dean's experience in Vermont was childish and backfired.

Kuchinich's remark is what was weak. I lost a lot of respect for him last night.

[liberalnurse]

9. So did I. He is just graveling and behaving badly.

He was deliberate in seeking out anything to attack another. Thats cheap and has no power.

[regnaD kciN]

36. No winners in this one...

Kucinich is a former mayor of Cleveland and now a representative from Ohio.

A former mayor of Cleveland, who managed to send his city into bankruptcy.

For him to get all high and mighty by dissing Dean's experience in Vermont was childish and backfired.

Kuchinich's remark is what was weak. I lost a lot of respect for him last night.

Same here. Unfortunately, it's probably going to wind up costing both Kucinich and Dean, as you'll hear the line repeated ad nauseum by the Republicans should he get the nomination.

[farmbo]

8. Please forward your comments to the 158th Fighter Wing...

F-16 fighters are not generally considered a "weak" link in our overall air defenses, and those folks might not take your comments in the high humor in which I take them. :)

As for the strength of the argument:

Today, 58% of the nation's Army ground forces come from the National Guard, yet the cost of an Army Guard unit is less than half of its active duty counterpart. With only 7% of Air Force funding, the Air National Guard provides 100% of interceptors, 33% of Air Force fighters, 45% of tactical airlift, and 43% of air refueling aircraft.
<snip>

From Sen Leahey's website...take your arguments up with him!

[sangh0]

11. The argument is weak

not the planes or the service members.

[MaverickX]

15. Governors don't really command the Natl Guard

It was federalized in the 20s.

[Woodstock]

16. Kucinich doesn't set military policy, either

He's a cog in the wheel.

[tjdee]

21. That's not at issue.

Kucinich wants to cut defense spending.

His point was that Dean, NOT wanting to cut military funds, is going to have a problem funding his social programs. Dean likes to go on and on about his balanced budget in VT, Kucinich's point was that he had no military to contend with, so Dean can't apply what happened in VT to the entire country. Whether Dean actually can fund his programs or not, while maintaining (and increasing?) military spending is another story.

[Isome]

22. Needs to be repeated:

Kucinich's point was that he had no military to contend with, so Dean can't apply what happened in VT to the entire country.

'nuff said!

[Woodstock]

29. See charlie's post below - he DID have a military to contend with

.

[Woodstock]

30. My point is they are both equally qualified to deal with this issue

And the balanced budget vs. military spending is NOT a one for one issue. Please tell me where Dean said he wants to handle the military spending as president the same way he handled it in Vermont.

Was it necessary for Kucinich to approach the disagreement this way:

KUCINICH SCOFFING: ‘HELLO?!’
As he had in previous joint appearances, Rep. Dennis Kucinich pressed his attack on Dean from the left. Referring scornfully to Dean, he said, “You can talk about balancing the budget in Vermont. But Vermont doesn’t have a military. And if you are not going to cut the military and you are talking about balancing the budget, then what are you going to do about social spending? Hello?!”

http://www.msnbc.com/news/962135.asp?cp1=1

My point is that his method of approaching the debate is in question.

[diamondsoul]

43. Why is his method "in question"?

Because he demands to be heard? Because once in a while his frustration with being marginalized and not having valid contrasts made between his policies and Dr. Dean's polcies comes forth?

He is still a human being, he gets frustrated, he gets tired of being scoffed at and insulted as a "left-wing loony", and once in a great while he comes back swinging. Is it something I want him to do regularly? No, not at all. Still I can't demand he be less human than he is, and particularly not when it's his humanity that often attracts people. He's genuine, even when he's genuinely pissed off! ;)

Very often he's left with no choice but to come off as "attacking" Dr. Dean, not because of Dr. Dean, but because that is the ONLY way the comparisons and contrasts will ever be presented to the people. He doesn't like it anymore than you all do, and neither do I.

[TAH6988]

18. Thus endeth the arguement....N/T

[charlie]

25. For what it's worth

The National Guard is under each governors' command during peacetime:

The National Guard is the organized militia reserved to the states by the Constitution of the United States under Article 1, Section 8. In peacetime, the National Guard is commanded by the governor of each respective state or territory. When ordered to active duty for mobilization or called into federal service for emergencies, units of the Guard are under the control of the appropriate service secretary. The militia clause reserves the appointment of officers and the authority of training the militia (according to Congressionally prescribed standards) to the states. In 1903, Congress officially designated the organized militia as the National Guard and established procedures for training and equipping the Guard to active duty military standards.

http://www.ngb.army.mil/downloads/fact_sheets/guard.asp

Edit: spelling

[Woodstock]

27. Then Dean has experience commanding a military!!! :-)

And he didn't go AWOL, so that puts him ahead of Bush right there. Put Wesley Clark on the ticket as VP, and put that issue to rest for good.

Thanks for that reference.

[dsc]

23. I don't think the feds pay the entire cost

The reason I don't is that the national guard armory near me closed and the reason given was that the state would save money by doing so. If the feds paid the whole cost that couldn't be true.

[farmbo]

34. Feds pay only 7% of the cost of staffing the Air National Guard

With only 7% of Air Force funding, the Air National Guard provides 100% of interceptors, 33% of Air Force fighters, 45% of tactical airlift, and 43% of air refueling aircraft.

Source: Sen Leahey's website

[revcarol]

35. TOTALLY misleading headline on your post!!

They don't just pay for 7% of the Guard staffing!!!!!!!

Guard staffing is only 7% of the AF budget, and of course, that doesn't include any operational expense like actually spending av-gas to fly the planes.

AND that staffing expense included most of the people being one weekend a month and two weeks duty per year, AND, now that the Guard is full-time. all the time, and eligible for combat pay and family separation allownaces, THE FEDERAL AMOUNT JUST FOR STAFFING HAS GROWN EXPOTENTIALLY...and that's still without a single gallon of av-gas.

So why can't we cut out the "MISSILE DEFENSE SHIELD" that doesn't work and seems designed to challenge China to a nuke race? And save $10 BILLION? A a whole list of other useless 'boy toys' for contractors?

Dean is so uptight when he is called on problems, and so are some of his followers. DK was ABSOLUTELY RIGHT to show that Dean's programs can't get done without more money in the pot in the form of cutting the defense budget. Sometimes Dean reminds me of our current resident: Dean uses the "same money" for education and health care and everything else he wants, Bush uses the "same tax cut" to justify everything he wants.

[farmbo]

44. USAF provides the aircraft; states and US cost share staff costs

After all, the Guard is available for state emergencies.
Bush's "Terror War" has resulted in the call-up (federalization) of probably 1/2 of Guard Units nationwide, so salary costs are shifting.
The $10 million in NG costs to Vermont is taken from FY 2003 Vermont budget, and demonstrates some share of state payment.

If the 7% refers to the % of USAF budget, not % of federal cost share, I'm sorry. I mis-read the figure.

[Woodstock]

33. Some comebacks to Kucinich on the Dean blog

Here's one :) :

For Mr. Kucinich...you brought up a very valid point about no military in Vermont.....we all know that Dennis....HELLLLLLLLLLOOO!

1)I seem to recall the kid mayor of Cleveland bankrupting that place a while back..HHELLOOOOO!

2)Do you think the Ameican public,after 9/11,terrorism,etc are going to elect a person that will slash the miltary??? HEEELLOOOOOOO!

3)Granted,Vermont doesnt have a military, but neither did Arkansas(except for several survivalist pockets in the swamps)but Clinton balanced a budget and Dean models himself after Clinton.....HEELLLLLLLOOOOOOOO!!!!!

4)Mr.Kucinich....your advisors should make you aware of your abrasive,deafening and embarrassing style...you bring up some good points of argument....but the WAY you do it...HELLLLLLLOO!!

5)I like alotof your platform Sir....you are about 20 years too early however....HEEELLOOOOO!

[Terwilliger]

38. hahah

you retort with childishness...way to go! ignorant people

are all Deanies this irrelevant?

[killbotfactory]

41. This is what Kucinich did...

HELLOOOOOOO!

[Terwilliger]

42. yes, and it makes you people look childish trying to respond

is that what you're defending?