Is it true we pulled all our troops out of Saudi Arabia?

[talkinghand]

Wow I just read that today... on DU.

That's incredible news... can't believe it's been so totally buried... I read the newspaper fairly regularly and have been tuning in cable news daily -- ne'er a peep have I heard (or seen)!

Sheesh that was the whole Osama bin Laden raison d'etre wasn't it? The whole 9/11 thing wrapped itself around the idea that our troops had a base on THEIR (Saudi) soil.

And of course, the whole reason we invaded Iraq was to be able to pull our troops out of Saudi Arabia. At least that was an official line, wasn't it?

So much has happened in the past 6 months -- and year -- it's all fuzzy now. But I'm shocked the troop pullout from the Saudi base wasn't bigger news.

[AP]

1. Not only that, but Saudi Arabia would be first place I'd look for Sadaam's

WMDs. At least that's the conclusion I'd draw after reading The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.

[gratuitous]

2. Yep, and as you said, just like Osama wanted us to do!

But of course, the terrorists will have won already if you bad mouth President Bunnypants, so watch yourself!

[Maple]

3. It's exactly

what Osama demanded

[htuttle]

5. But now the US is occupying Iraq

So he's still pissed off.

[synthia]

28. it's also what the saudi's wanted

they asked us to leave

[LittleApple81]

4. Then Osama won? US pulled out of Saudi Arabia, what he wanted. n/t

[paulsbc]

6. uh, reality check

OBL and Al Qaeda are not concerned with the US on Saudi soil, they are concerned that we exist. Read some of their writings and the volumes written on them since 9/11 (and some better ones written before 9/11). They want to remove the US from existence, being in Saudi Arabia is a red herring.

[wuushew]

7. not according to buzzflash

Oct 7 2001, shortly after the US launched its first strikes against Afghanistan, Al Jazeera TV broadcast a video of Osama bin Laden. In that video, bin-Laden stated the two main goals of his terrorist campaign against the US:

a) Withdrawal of troops from "the Peninsula of Mohammed" (Saudi Arabia)

b) A sovereign and secure Palestine

"I swear by Almighty God who raised the skies without a pillar that America and those who live in America will not dream of security before we live it as a reality in Palestine and before all the infidel armies leave the land of Mohammed, praise and peace be upon him."

This was not the first time the al-Qaeda leader made these demands. You can read a full translated transcript of the video in the following linked article entitled "Bin Laden's demands: peace in Palestine and foreign troops out of the Gulf"

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/03/06/06_osama.html

[paulsbc]

8. and you believe that?

read more of him and his group. those are his immediate goals, not his long term goals. read more...

[htuttle]

9. Did you read what he said?

Or what Rush said he said?

[paulsbc]

10. i've read a bunch

on OBL and Al Qaeda, and their end goal is not to remove the US from Saudi Arabia, it is to remove the "enemies of Islam" in their view. Google search for goodness sake...

[htuttle]

11. I have

And that's not what I've found.

Put up some links. Show me.

[paulsbc]

13. just one link.

of thousands on the net. read the ENTIRE goal structure of this group and do not get hoodwinked into the immediate goals they have of our removal from Muslim lands, it is a red herring.


http://www.infoplease.com/spot/terror-qaeda.html

The principal aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Furthermore, it is bin Laden's goal to unite all Muslims and establish, by force, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.

According to bin Laden's 1998 fatwa (religious decree), it is the duty of Muslims around the world to wage holy war on the U.S., American citizens, and Jews. Muslims who do not heed this call are declared apostates (people who have forsaken their faith).

Al-Qaeda's ideology, often referred to as "jihadism," is marked by a willingness to kill "apostate" Muslims and an emphasis on jihad. Although it is clearly at odds with nearly all Islamic religious thought, it has its roots in the work of two modern Sunni Islamic thinkers: Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Sayyid Qutb.

Al-Wahhab was an 18th-century reformer who claimed that Islam had been corrupted a generation or so after the death of Mohammed. He denounced any theology or customs developed after that as non-Islamic, including more than 1,000 years of religious scholarship. He and his supporters took over what is now Saudi Arabia, where Wahhabism remains the dominant school of religious thought.

Sayyid Qutb, a radical Egyptian scholar of the mid-20th century, declared Western civilization the enemy of Islam, denounced leaders of Muslim nations for not following Islam closely enough, and taught that jihad should be undertaken not just to defend Islam, but to purify it.

[gratuitous]

14. And you believe that?

Osama isn't an imam; he can't issue a fatwa.

[paulsbc]

15. man you are hoodwinked..

OBL has been issuing "fatwas" for years, whether or not they are accepted by Muslims as a whole is irrelevant (and I'm glad that many Muslims DO NOT accept his fatwas, but he does make them, and declares himself as such).

[Maple]

16. I think the hoodwinking goes the other way

It is not a 'battle between civilizations' or between religions, and Osama is not a cleric and cannot issue fatwas.

Some of the more extreme fundamentalists have said such things, but just as no one judges Christianity by whatever comes out of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson, you shouldn't judge Islam by a few of their fundies.

[paulsbc]

17. what?

when did I judge Islam, the topic is WHAT DOES OBL want to do, not what Islam is all about.

try to stay on topic, please.

[Maple]

18. And you told us all the drek

that you could google about how he..and they...want us wiped off the map etc...and that Osama was issuing 'fatwas'

I said neither thing was true. And they aren't

Now if YOU'D like to get on topic, it's about the removal of Americans from Saudi Arabia.

Which IS true.

[paulsbc]

19. sigh.

OBL issues fatwas, do you deny this?

OBL wants America attacked and destroyed, do you deny this?

it is NOT about removing America from Saudi Arabia, that is just a small piece of what the man and his group want. Surely you can't be this blind?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

33. Nope, it doesn;t say anything about "Destroy America"...

It says "wage holy war on America" and the reason given is to force America to remove its forces from Muslim lands.

What you are saying is NOT what Al Qaeda has said, but what you interpret it to mean.

So, show me where Al Qaeda has ever said that it wants to destroy America regardless of whether America removes its troops from Muslim land. I am waiting with baited breath...

[kodi]

20. i appreciate your tolerance, but falwell did not fly into the kaaba stone

and i think that more muslims than is revealed feel the same as bin laden about the heterodoxy of the west.

in fact, it is the heterodoxy of the west, rationalism and humanism that is at the heart of the threat to fundamentalist isalm as well as to fundamentalist christianity.

the only difference is that in recent times, there exists in the west a stronger tradition for heterodoxy to be tolerated.

[sfwriter]

23. Hmmm.... Do you equate...

The Kaaba Stone with the Twin Towers and the Pentagon?

To carry that forward, our gods would be Greed and War. They were carefully chosen targets I think.

-Sandy

[kodi]

24. geeze, are you aware that the west is secular?

and that equivalent secular targets evoking power in the islamic world do not exist?

al quaeda did not fly into the vatican because the symbolism is not analogous.

[wuushew]

25. Nothing in Europe or Japan was destroyed

and those countries are quite modern and secular?(with combined economies and populations larger than the U.S. in addition).

I am forced to the conclusion that American arrogance and support for Israel is more to blame than this concept of evil secularism.

[kodi]

27. the US leads the secular west, not europe or japan, or even fiji

for better or worse it represents the avatar of western heterodoxy and this is the basic threat to the religious fundamentalists of islam.

the "arrogance" and corruption of the secular west is epitomized by america and there is truly value in recognizing this, but they are merely derivative of the heterodox secular culture of rationalism and humanism that strikes at the heart of fundamentalist islam. while you may blame the affects of the heterodoxy and american suport of zionism as the causes for the attacks that is only superficial true.

the heart of the problem is that the west has moved beyond the singular orthodoxy that rises from a purely religious world view and this is a direct threat to those whose world is shaped entirely by religion.

al queada is using the rhetoric of a religious war precisely because it feels isalm is threatened by secular power. do not forget that al quaeda and bin laden in particular, has attacked (rhetorically) iraq's saddam hussein for precisely this reason and has used the same rhetoric against the secular leaders of pakistan. the only common thread with these two powers and the US is .......what? certainly not support of zionism or arrogance and corruption, but their secular world views.

[NNN0LHI]

32. There used to be an Arab country as secular as the west is

It was Iraq. But those days are long gone. Just a memory now.

Don

[sfwriter]

22. And take this classic from 1998...

From one of Osama's greatest hits:

"First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples."

Wow! Get out of Saudi Arabia. There it is, around the time of the embassy bombings. Did Clinton pull us out, nope. He tried to kill Osama and started bi-weekly intelligence meetings.

Fast forward to similar demands and the worst act of terrorism in US history. What does Bush do? Blows two countries to hell, rescends many privacy rights domestically, pisses off 2/3rds of the free world and then gives Osama what he wants.

Osama, survived both leaders and is still at large, apparently funded by our "allies" the Saudis and living under the protection of our "ally" Pakistan.

-Sandy

[sfwriter]

21. It's the first thing in your post...

"The principal aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia"

Thats what OBL wanted, and we did it. Basically, just like Regan pulling out of Beruit, we've said "TERRORISM WORKS" in big technicolor letters, live via sattelite, for all the world to read.

-Sandy

[Devils Advocate NZ]

31. You just proved yourself wrong

Nowhere in that article does it say that Al Qaeda's long term goal is to destroy America.

In fact, the only thing that can be said to be a long term goal in that article is:

The principal aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Furthermore, it is bin Laden's goal to unite all Muslims and establish, by force, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.

So where in there does it say Al Qaeda wants to destroy America?

[wuushew]

12. Ah yes Mohammad has again shown me the power of google

The essential goal of Sheikh Osama bin Laden is for Muslims to have control of their own affairs. This means: (1) the removal of American troops from the Land of the Two Holy Places; (2) an end to American influence in, blackmail of, and aggression against Muslim countries; (3) an end to American support for the Zionist occupation of Palestine; and (4) an end to the American and Allied occupation of Afghanistan.

http://alhaqq.jeeran.com/goals1.html

[Wwagsthedog]

26. TalkingHand. The answer to your title question is no

Some US military advisors remain to support the large amount of American hardware we have sold the Saudis over the years. A principle weapon system is the F-15, Strike Eagle. The Vinnel Corp (susidiary of Poppy's Carlysle Group) have had for some time and still do have a contract to train the Saudi National Guard. Yes, Vinnel took some casualties in a bombing in Riyadh early this year but the event didn't cause them to abandon their mission.

Many of the US military assets which left Saudi Arabia went to Qatar so OBL has not accomplihed his goal of removing the military of the foreign devils from the Arabian Peninsula. Whats next? Only Allah knows.

The above is only a recap of news over the past few months. Paul Wolfowitz, 6/9/03 said:

"There are a lot of things that are different now, and one that has gone by almost unnoticed--but it's huge--is that by complete mutual agreement between the U.S. and the Saudi government we can now remove almost all of our forces from Saudi Arabia. Their presence there over the last 12 years has been a source of enormous difficulty for a friendly government. . . . I think just lifting that burden from the Saudis is itself going to open the door to other positive things."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/757wzfan.asp

I don't really like the link but it was all I could find tonight.

[Impeach Whistle Ass]

29. I dont see how anyone could think Osama won

Especially since America stationed troops there mainly to ensure the al-Sauds' continued rule. America's gone but the al-Sauds aren't.

Saddam's gone, so there's no reason to stay in Saudi Arabia anymore. I hardly think the American military raping Iraq is a good thing in OBL's mind. Although it give al-Qaeda a good opportunity to kill Americans and perhaps defeat them.

[sweetheart]

30. are mercenary companies "troops" ?

If i were to count the number of private military organizations contracted to be "troops" outside of any legal definition... surely the american occupation of most of the world is forgotten.

Are those fuckers in columbia american troops, or just evil shitbags?

I understand that once military folks retire in their 40's with a huge pay packed from "us" the public... that these folks just stay in the military, just without the uniform and do private contracting. What else do they do... we don't need any more police murderers, we don't need any more government murderers, we don't need any more foreign murderers.

Perhaps we should create a designation for non-civilian military corporations and call them "the extended forces" that the truth is not evaded when the fact of troops presence is asked... as surely the pervert white house way is to privatize the entire military, and then we can fight entire wars without troops.

[NNN0LHI]

34. They are being replaced too

Pakistan to send more troops to Saudi Arabia

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2003-daily/03-09-2003/main/main4.htm

BRUSSELS: Civil and military authorities in Pakistan have decided to provide additional military and security personnel to Saudi Arabia to fill the gap created by the withdrawal of the US and other Western troops from the Kingdom, reliable defence sources told The News.

Saudi Arabia has already given a pledge to Pakistani authorities it would welcome additional Pakistani military and security advisers and troops primarily to replace the Western military personnel who have left the kingdom over the last year.

Pakistani military personnel in Saudi Arabia would play an effective role in several projects designed to bolster the defence and security of the kingdom. "Pakistani military and security personnel sent to Saudi Arabia would play two-pronged security related role: first, to replace some of the westerners who have left or leaving the kingdom and secondly, to help in the expansion of the security related projects already being executed by Pakistani personnel in Saudi Arabia," the defence source underlined.

The defence sources indicated that the need of Pakistan military and security personnel in Saudi Arabia would increase enormously in the days to come as the acceptability of the American troops in the Kingdom is affected by the recent cleavage in the US-Saudi relations created by a 28 pages of the joint congressional report on the events leading up to the terror attacks on September 11, 2001, which American refuse to declassify despite repeated requests by Saudi Arabia.

more

[PATRICK]

35. Pullbacks

What good are they if we want to attack the country? Targets and hostages. Like bugging out of the NK DMZ it is as much a sign of reeadying for aggressive policies as for any other reason.