What do you think of subsidized college tuition for illegal immigrants?

[TheYellowDog]

Poll question: What do you think of subsidized college tuition for illegal immigrants?

There is a law in California that allows illegal immigrants to pay in-state tuition rates at public universities there. I am interested to hear what people on here think, and I personally think that we should have amnesty for illegal immigrants and let them have driver's licenses, but I must say that I am very much opposed to this specific law.

This seems to me like a punch in the face to working families in California(AND other states) who are struggling already to afford tuition for their children, especially after the new tuition hikes. Illegals are getting 75% of their tuition paid for by California taxpayers, and it just seems to me like we are encouraging people to come across the border for a very affordable education. I have no problem with essential health care for illegal immigrants because that is the right thing to do, but a subsidized college education is entirely another.

I also believe that this law is blatantly unconstitutional, because Congress has the power to pass laws permitting and restricting immigration, obviously, and the interstate privileges and immunities clause in Article 4 of the Constitution prohibits discrimination by one state against U.S. citizens who hail from other states. California is breaking the law when it decides that it can subsidize the immigrants' education with tax dollars when the state charges higher tuition to residents of other states.

What do you think? Respond below if you want to.

[TheYellowDog]

1. Who said it was a good idea?

:shrug:

[redeye]

13. I did.

Ideally, there shouldn't be any border controls beyond health screenings and perhaps passport checks, in which case there obviously won't be any illegal immigrants. However, until that happens, immigrants, legal or illegal, need to have all the rights that residents have. Therefore, I see no reason why immigrants in California should pay the out-of-state rates for UC.

As a bonus, think of it as a kind of a need-based scholarship: immigrants get into UC and pay rock-bottom tuition (for a tier-1 university), thus they get college degrees from excellent universities, thus they get an opportunity to pull themselves out of poverty, which is the case fro almost all illegals.

[TheYellowDog]

2. Well

:kick: I guess there really isn't much for people to respond with, now that I think about it. You either agree with the law or you don't.

[TheYellowDog]

3. Maybe the people who voted yes

would like to explain how this law is fair to working families in Nevada and Oregon who came here legally?

[AP]

29. If you live in California, you're going to better off if your

neighbor's kid (illegal or not) isn't struggling to get an education than if some person from Nevada who doesn't even pay taxes in Nevada has an easier time getting a great CA education.

Fair to NV'ans? Fuck that. I want CA to be fair to people in CA first, and it's fairer to US citizens in CA if you're whole fucking economy isn't impoverished by the shitty treatment of the lowest among us.

[ButterflyBlood]

4. I wouldn't have any problem with the law if it was fair

but it isn't fair to out of staters paying more.

[TheYellowDog]

5. Well that's the way the state makes money

by charging out-of-staters more. Since Oregonians and Nevadans(sp?) are getting an education by a public school in California, they should naturally have to pay a higher rate for coming in out-of-state. Naturally, illegal immigrants should have to pay the out-of-state rate also, since they are here illegally.

[AP]

31. The state makes more money in the long term (not just from

tuition, but from making sure it has an educated population with lots of opportunities) when it makes it easier and cheaper for its own citizens to get a good education. A CA education is privilege for non-Californians, yet CA tries to make as close as possible to an entitlement for Californians. And that's good.

[ClintonTyree]

6. Megadittos.............

good buddy! ;-) I agree, as a father of a young woman going to an out of state University, it's wrong. Level the playing field one way or the other and it's a non-issue, at least for me.

[AP]

30. Fair? How is your life better when you make life harder for neighbor and

easier for some family off in OR or NV. Don't you see that if you're in CA, you're better off if the people around you are better off. Man, you people have a problem with race.

[Dookus]

7. Well, they don't just wander in and get free college....

"To qualify for in-state tuition in California, a student must have attended high school in California for at least 3 years and graduated. An authorized alien student is also required to file an affidavit stating that he or she has filed an application to legalize status or will file such an application as soon as he or she is eligible."


They're also ineligible for state or federal financial aid.

These are KIDS we're talking about here. Few 15 year olds are running away from Mexico to go to high school in California just for a cheap education. Their parents brought them here. We should be ENCOURAGING higher education for such people.

[AP]

34. This is how you can get an education at Berkeley -- the best public

university in the country -- for $4800 a year. They do that so that CA can be one of the best economies in the world. Tell NV and OR to get their own Berkeleys. Make their own committment to giving their residents cheap educations.

[ComerPerro]

42. You make a great point

I would like to have it so immigrants (i don't care, illegal or legal) can get an education at an in-state rate.

However, first we need massive reforms. I would like to see the federal government spend a lot more on education, both k-12 and college-level.

We definately, as a nation, have the means to ensure that every state has its own Berkeley, maybe even two or three.

[AP]

51. If you live in and are committed to state, it's in everyone's

interest in that state that you're the happiest, wealthiest, smartest person you can be.

CA can not give people committed to CA that great, cheap education, which pays back to CA the investment many times over, if it's also giving this same gift to NV'ans, and OR'ians, an NY'ers too.

All those states have their own obligations to their own citizens, and they can't expect to look to the UC system to solve them. It's not a burden CA is obligate to bear. (But, regardless, the number of Nobel Prize winners in the UC system probably suggest that the rest of America and the world is reaping the rewards of the CA public school system's committment to a fantastic, affordable education).

Oh, and I agree, it's vitally important to start from the bottom up. Jennifer Granholm in MI just had to make this concession. The UofM had to takes some cuts so that elementary-12 education didn't suffer in the current crisis. It was a fair trade-off.

[Clete]

8. No vote here.

I have to say something.

I think to deny any child the chance of an education no matter where their parents are from is mean spirited. Wouldn't it be better in the long run for them to become productive and educated adults where they can give back to the society that allowed them to get an education? Let's face it, they will eventually get amnesty, stay here and hopefully become citizens. I have seen this cycle over and over again. Nothing is going to change.

Also, if they are in fact residents, even if not legal, why shouldn't they pay the same rate. I mean a lot of residents are in fact from out-of-state but have lived here the required length of time to be considered residents. If a family from out of state sends their child here and are still living in another state, then that child is indeed from out of state.

I don't think you are trying to be racist, but I get the meaning from your post that some children deserve an education more than other children because their parents are struggling and legal. Are not the parents of the alien children also struggling? Remember they wouldn't be here if there wasn't a market for their labor. And most of all, it's not the child's fault that s/he ended up in these circumstances, so why shouldn't we be generous of spirit and let them get the same education for the same tuition as any other resident in this state.

[TheYellowDog]

16. In short, no.

It's not generous to make struggling families in other states pay a higher rate than illegal aliens.

[sangha]

17. Struggling families?

Since when is a family "struggling" merely because they're from another state? Believe it or not, but some of those out-of-state students come from families that could afford it, and I would think that if they were smart enough to get into an out-of-state school, they'd be able to get into an in-state one, also.

But really surprises me, coming from a Democrat, is the idea that the only way to make things fair is to deny valuable assistance and ignoring the alternative - providing more assistance to more people.

And now is the point where "fairness" becomes less of an issue, and your pocketbook plays a more significant role. After all, it's always about your money.

[TheYellowDog]

19. Don't put words in my mouth, sangha.

It's not my pocketbook. I don't live in California, and I didn't go to a public university there, either. If a family living in Oregon, making $35k a year, has to pay 20 grand to send their kid to school in Cali, while an illegal immigrant gets it for 75% cheaper, it's unfair. I am for either cancelling this policy, or leveling the playing field by charging everyone the exact same tuition rate, no matter where they are from.

[redeye]

22. 10 grand, subject to scholarships

That's at least the situation at UC Berkeley - I imagine UCLA is the same, whereas the other UC's are not better than, say, U of O at Eugene.

[AP]

37. Oh, man. You don't get it.

CA makes a huge committment to having the best and cheapest education possible for its citizens because it has an obligation to all people living in CA who benefit from having smarter people living in the state. CA doesn't have an obligation to you.

Either you need to elect people to gov't in Oregon who are willing to make a similar committiment to public higher education, or you need to move to a state which has that sort of commmittment. You have no right to make the argument that CA is treating you unfairly.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. The undocumented family in California is paying payroll taxes on

their paychecks which pays into the system.

[SoCalDem]

85. Did the colleges in Oregon all close down??

Out-of-state tuition has always been an "issue".. The determining factor is WHERE THE FAMILY LIVES..

If you live in Oregon or Nevada, and the governments there decide that "no tax" is best, then you have to figure that the colleges there might suffer..(Maybe not)..BUT if you want your kid to go to a school out of your home state, then why should "your" child get preferential treatment to MY child who went k-12 in California??

In a perfect world , where College cost $10.00 a year, and housing and books were free, and there were colleges on every corner,I would say .."The more the merrier".. The truth is that there are very limited spaces available since budget cutting is de rigueur, so why should California schools NOT save as many spaces as possible for California kids..??

[RobinA]

44. I'm Confused

Does Nevada not have its own state college system for struggling families? And why are struggling families in Nevada more deserving of an education funded by tax dollars they didn't pay than struggling illegal alien families? Struggling Nevada families also have more financial aid possibilities than illegal families. What's "illegal" anyway?

[AP]

46. If Nevadans are having problems that can be resolved by state government

they need to go to their own state government for redress, rather than rely on CA to fix their problems.

If your state is poor, maybe NV should start giving its illegal immigrants a fair shake so that they can get ahead.

And that goes for you people in Oregon too. It'd be nice if the Democrats in CA could run NV and OR too, but they don't.

[Philosophy]

9. I voted yes

Because I'm anarcho-communist

[mitchum]

10. This should warm the hearts of the National Alliance and other...

white supremacy movements. I'm not being arch or sarcastic. The NA in particular has said that they plan on focusing on immigration issues in order to broaden their appeal. This stupid policy in California will certainly help.

[Clete]

11. Well aren't they special.

White supremists are nothing more than gang bangers with swastikas. Who cares what they do. The idiots who fall in with them will anyway no matter which scapegoat they pick on to fuel their hate message.

[mitchum]

12. But they want to hide the swastikas (and therein lies the danger)

They concede that the skinhead yahoo aspect is played out, and are now looking to capitalise on the very real possibility of another "nativist" movement in the US.

[fabius]

14. How about subsidized tuition for American citizens first?

I'm not immigrant-bashing. If the Repuglians didn't want illegal immigration they would just fund the Border Patrol adequately. They DO want the cheap labor to find its way here to bring down the wages.

That said, illegal immigration is a straw man to keep the masses from figuring out who's REALLY ripping them off.

[rosalux]

18. I agree

Us versus Them thinking is a divisive tactic!
Why can't undocumented immigrant children and native born children both be entitled to an education?
Illegal immigrants are not the enemy.

[newyawker99]

26. Hi rosalux!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[AP]

38. How about a national public university system, rather than leaving

it to the states?

[redeye]

23. How about subidized tuition to those who need it?

Illegal immigrants need it more than anyone else; if they had money to even begin paying for a single year at UC, they'd be able to immigrate legally or live very comfortably in their home countries.

[mitchtv]

47. standard tutition if you stay in your Home state

why my Calf taxes should help Nevadans who pay little taxes to come here and get a superior education is beyond me. Then we should get all the Colorado river water we need. Fair?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

66. Yes you are immigrant bashing....the immigrant in this state legal or

not gets state taxes deducted from his pay check..the ORegonian or Nevadan next door wants to freeload off a state with a progressive tax structure since the regressive tax structure of their state does not fund their own colleges well enough.

[Speed8098]

77. Yes you are immigrant bashing....the immigrant in this state legal or

not gets state taxes deducted from his pay check

Maybe the illegals in YOUR state pay taxes out of their payroll, but here on Long Island, the illegal population largely works off the books.

That, in my opinion, is a huge problem.

[AP]

79. Since more stringent rules have been placed on employers

more 'illegals' have to have fake credentials to get a job, so they actually are paying taxes (for benefits they don't receive) and the problem of people working off the books is more and more an equal opportunity crime, that doesn't so much relate to citizenship.

It may be quite possible that US citizens participating in organized crime are responsible for way more untaxed transfers of money than all the undocumented alliens in America.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

83. Take it up in your state..here they are not paid under the table so much

as provided with false documentation.

[mitchtv]

112. how about out of staters pay California's income tax with that subsidy?

sale tax.property tax et al. better yet let them build universities in their own states. immigrants may not be ciizens, but they at least live here and pay taxes.

[Wednesdays]

15. Hasn't this sort of thing already been decided by the SCOTUS...

via Yick Wo v. Hopkins? In that foreigners are guaranteed the same rights as U.S. citizens? The constitutional scholars out there can clarify this...

On edit:

Indeed, there is a line in the opinion from Yick Wo:
"The rights of the petitioners, as affected by the proceedings of which they complain, are not less, because they are aliens and subjects of the Emperor of China...." (this was back in 1886, when they still had an Emperor in China).

Today, that line could read:
"The rights of the petitioners, as affected by the proceedings of which they complain, are not less, because they are aliens and subjects of the Republic of Mexico...."

Further, the opinion reads:
"The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution is not confined to the protection of citizens. It says: Nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

In other words, discriminating against someone by denying them education that other people can access is unconstitutional.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

20. These students ARE state residents

Another poster stated that the students had to have been enrolled in high school in CA for 3 years to qualify. If this is so, then they are residents of the state and therefore should qualify for in-state tuition. Whether or not they're US citizens doesn't apply.

Students who come from Oregon and Nevada are residents of...Oregon and Nevada.

By the way, the struggling family thing doesn't wash. If I could send my kids out of state to college, in any state, I don't think I'd consider myself to be struggling.

[Paschall]

21. Poor poll

Provocative and you provide no links to justify your claims about the situation in California--which is not, you say, your state of residence.

Furthermore, as others have pointed out this issue of "in-state/out-state" has been reviewed (numerous) times by the courts. Children of illegal aliens also get free public school education in Texas, if their parents are residents of Texas. Check it out.

:thumbsdown:

I don't like the scent of "illegal alien" bashing in your post. By the way, in regard to "subsidized" college education, I personally feel college education should be virtually free, as it is in most countries of the European Union.

[liberalnurse]

24. Well, I work extra shifts as an RN Supervisor to pay

my graduate fees. I sacrifice time with my family and loose a lot of sleep. Preparing papers coupled with research time,writing and clinical.. then back to work.....Its a rough road to travel. I think the illegal immigrants should get a free high school diploma only.

It's not necessary for them to be handed a subsidized education on the American workers backs! They can earn it just like I did and continue to do. If I lived in California and had to be treated by such an insulting law, I'd protest loudly.

[sweetheart]

25. bullying migratory american people

Myself i was charged out of state tuition at various universities, though my parents paid their taxes dutifully in california. I think it is grossly unfair to have an "out of state" tuition difference, as the give and take between states is discounted in this fact.

Its like people in britain that leave the country to retire in spain, yet when europeans settle in britain, they complain of their burden on the health service and such.... everyone forgets that the number of people leaving often equivocates those arriving...

I am for state subsidized "classic" education. This is different than career education that is only for getting you a better job. I think the corporate-university link has become too strong, that going to school is more about box ticking to climb a metitocratic ladder to better pay... and in this regard, it is an investment with a clear result that is personal, not public.

Why the state should support masters programmes in say nuclear engineering is questionable... as these subsidies are too closely linked to corporate subsidies... as if the nuclear profession did not have state subsidized education for engineers, it would have to fork out directly to get people educated. That the state subsidy which could transform the educational base of america, has been perverted to corporatize and disenfranchise people seeking a life long education... is typical.

It all comes back to the "local" people beating up their disenfranchised people... in a bully culture, the local element beats up the weaker folks who do not have representation... its not fair, it is the very issue that government is intended to correct... and certainly the murderous perverted pig-fuckers in the whitehouse couldn't give a toss.

[jiacinto]

27. No I don't

That's not fair to citizens of California, both naturalized and native.

[redeye]

33. Why not?

Many a time Californians protest the illegal immigrants bringing Mexico's poverty to California in general and LA and San Diego in particular. Giving illegal immigrants the subsidies that California residents get seems to me like a reasonable way to lift those immigrants out of poverty, which will also help citizens of California in SoCal by bringing the area's average education level and income up.

[sujan]

35. even if it's proposed by the democrats?

[Cocoa]

36. I am for it because it IS fair

Great discussion, eh?

[sandnsea]

39. The tax lies

Everybody pays sales tax. Apartment rents pay property taxes. Illegals most often have payroll and income tax withheld. They bring in fake ID that you can't recognize and the payroll is filled out for them just like anybody else. I've done farm payroll. That's the way it worked. So the whole concept that they're pulling services out of the system without paying taxes is a complete fabrication.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. Carlos..Please read my posts and avoid posting without knowing the

whole story.

[sandnsea]

28. Of course they should

These are kids who have graduated from high school and are paying in-state tuition fees. If they have the academic standing to get into college and are coming up with the money to pay for it, then they should have that opportunity. And if they're working to pay for college, they're probably having taxes withheld anyway. They've certainly been paying CA sales tax for years. They've contributed to the tax base like any other CA family. It can only be better for the state to have educated people, whether they're illegal immigrants or legal citizens. This is almost a no-brainer. It isn't their fault their parents brought them here, they deserve a chance to accomplish their goals and become citizens. Or should we just put them on a bus back to Mexico, or wherever, when they turn 18?

[sujan]

32. I am for it

the native born wont take the benefits anyway......at least the educated illegal immigrants will help uplift their part of the society.

[DemVet]

40. No

we can't reward breaking the law. There are legal means for these people to become citizens. I have a friend who is now here legally due to an amnesty program. He thought it was a trap at first. He no longer has to look over his shoulder or fear in applying for a job. It was, however, too expensive. $1K or thereabouts. Several of us helped. :)

[AP]

41. We can't let bad laws force Americans to accept a shitty economy.

And if the law is that these people can get a cheaper education then THAT'S THE LAW. So respect it.

[DemVet]

43. We also have laws that....

allow a President to take office without getting the most votes. Should we respect those laws also? :shrug:

[AP]

45. Let me see if I follow you...

First of all, I'm for anything that's going to make more Americans happier, wealthier and healthier. I think our stupid immigration laws create misery for immigrants and make the rest of America worse off too. I feel like I'm better off if the least among my neighbors is better off.

As for the 2000 election, I think there was a lot of law-breaking involved in that thing. I think people should go to jail. I think the election of 2000 was especially bad because the whole purpose of it was to contral the government so that Republicans could shift a lot of wealth from a lot of Americans (99%) and to the top 1%. In other words, they're creating a lot of deprivation and misery, making many Amricans poorer and less healthy. Usually, a democracy prevents this by, they say, being a form of government in which the interests of the majority prevail (and who would vote to ruin their lives?).

For the same reasons that I want all my neighbors -- illegal and legal immigrants, and long to residents and citizens -- to do better, I want this Republican government to be convicted of its crimes.

I think bad laws relating to immigration need to go, and we need more good ones, like this one and the drivers license issue. It's just going to make more people healthier, wealthier and happier.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. A question to this very bigoted thread

And yes it is bigotry through and through even from the language ILLEGAL ALIEN versus undocumented worker.

If a person works in this country and is paid with a pay check, they are paying into the system whether or not they are using a valid social security card number. Odds are, they will not receive a tax refund as they will not file.

If they pay into the system why should they not receive back?

[TheYellowDog]

68. NSMA,

are you calling me a bigot, indirectly?

[TheYellowDog]

69. I get it.

Disagreeing with a law is bigotry. Okay. Excuse me while i go :puke:

[AP]

70. I suspect its your REASONS for disagreeing.

But I can't speak for anyone but myself, and I've read through all the reasons once, and I'd rather not wade through the slime a second time just to figure out if you're responsiblie for the ones that are bigotted, or just based on a confused idea of what national identity means.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

73. No saying that people are taking something for nothing untruthfully

and using their documentation status to do it is bigoted. It is also bigoted to pick on them for their status and claim it is discriminating against your state or any other when they have far more claim being a resident of this state and paying into the system that funds colleges whether here legally or not.

BTW, the term ILLEGAL ALIEN is a bigoted term. They are undocumented.

Even the logic in this post by you begs that question:

5. Well that's the way the state makes money


by charging out-of-staters more. Since Oregonians and Nevadans(sp?) are getting an education by a public school in California, they should naturally have to pay a higher rate for coming in out-of-state. Naturally, illegal immigrants should have to pay the out-of-state rate also, since they are here illegally.

[AP]

74. And, incidentally, I believe the supreme court said that

out of state tuition was constitutional a long time ago.

If you want to have a debate about that issue, rather than start with the broad allgation of unconstitutionality, you should read the opinion and take up the specific issues raised by it.

I think this is the right citation for the case:

Starns v. Malkerson, 326 F. Supp. 234 (D.Minn. 1970), aff'd per curiam, 401 U.S. 985 (1971). Cf. Vlandis v. Kline, 412 U.S. 441, 452 & n.9 (1973), and id. at 456, 464, 467 (dicta). In Memorial Hospital v. Maricopa County, 415 U.S. 250, 256 (1974), the Court, noting the results, stated that ''some waiting periods . . . may not be penalties'' and thus would be valid.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

49. Education is never wrong.

[knight_of_the_star]

50. I don't like it

Being a citizen should actually mean SOMETHING in this country. If they want to get into this country and get benefits of citizenship, they should do it LEGALLY. I don't like the idea of pandering to illegals. In other countries, if you are there illegally you go in prison. Here, you get amnesty and college tuition. It is such Bullshit.

[AP]

53. Holy Shit! How did this issue ever turn into one of "I got mine--

they shouldn't get a piece of it."

Your 'citizenship' is going to mean way more if you're a citizen of a happy, healthy, wealthy community.

Holding back the least among us, whether they're illegal immigrants or some other object of scorn or misunderstanding, holds back all of us. You are going to live in a richer, happier, healthier society if the least among us is given a chance to rise and contribute to society and the economy.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. I guess they don't teach the fundamental concept of habeus corpus

in high school anymore.

[RobinA]

91. Being a Citizen

does mean something, it means you can't be arrested and thrown in jail without charges against you and access to a lawyer. Oh, wait...... Never mind.

[redeye]

96. It shouldn't

Eroding national sovereignty and national borders is an important task in the 21st century, and yes, turning citizens' privileges to people's rights is part of this erosion.

[AP]

99. You are mad.

Did you know that non-citizens could vote in almost all elections until, I believe, the late 19th or early 20th century? Do you know that the US didn't care at all about immigration until 'undesireables' like the Irish and the Chinese started to immigrate? Do you know that most immigration laws were motivated by a desire to maintain an underclass of cheap labor who wouldn't get financially rewared in proportion to their contributions to society so that the wealth they produced could be shifted up the income ladder and concentrated in the hands of a very few?

"RED" eye, my ass.

[redeye]

101. No, I didn't know

I don't think immigrants should be allowed to vote, but I do think they should get all other rights and privileges that citizens have (I'm willing to exclude more rights/privileges if I'm shown some that are similar to votign in their being functions of citizenship).

BTW, while the red in my name is indeed the communist red, I am far from a communist (even though communists should support my anti-nationalistic position on immigration). The Red Eye is the name of a communist resistance in a sci-fi book I'm cowriting; I'm using it here because the liberal resistance's name, the Black Tribes, doesn't sound good when joined, IMO (redeye sounds far better than blacktribe).

[mitchtv]

52. Let me put it this way

i would like to see California raise rates for out of staters.
illegal aliens who graduate from Calif HS and pay Calif taxes are residents of this state, and contribute to our economy.Neighbor states have habits like putting welfare clients on buses and encouraging them to go to Calif. where benefits are better.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. Like Oregonians who pay no state income tax

[AP]

58. Let me get this straight. People from Oregon -- a state with

no income tax -- are complaigning that CA's public school system isn't charging Oregonians a low enough tuition?

Oh, man. Get yourself a progressive income tax, and build yourself some schools which are as good as the schools in the UC system, and charge tuition as low as CA charges its own citizens. Don't expect CA to pull the weight for the entire west coast.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. EXACTLY!!! I didn't know you didn't realize that

Better yet! Charge appropriate state taxes..another thing that drains California vehicle funds is that rich people go buy their Ferrari's in Oregon and register them there to avoid paying their fair share.

So the Oregonian that started this post thinks it's unfair to his freeloading state. BOO FUCKING HOO!

[Dookus]

63. right on....

I pay a buttload in California state taxes. I'd MUCH rather that money go to subsidize an education for my neighbor's kid, whether he's here legally or not, than to subsidize the education of some out-of-stater who who doesn't pay ANY California taxes (or in the case of Nevada and Oregon, ANY state income tax.)

California has no obligation to educate Oregon's kids. We DO have an obligation to educate our own. And as I said before, these kids did not choose to come here illegally. They were BROUGHT here, and have to have gone to high school here for 3 years. Plus, they have to legalize their status as soon as possible in order to get the subsidy.

Education is the BEST way to help assimilate these kids into our society.

[Aaron]

94. Oregon HAS a state income tax (N/T)

[tkmorris]

57. Ugly, ugly thread

I especially am appalled by the opinion that "illegal immigrants" are somehow taking advantage of a system unfairly, collecting benefits while not paying taxes.

First of all many of those "illegals" are already getting shafted by what they are paid. Besides, as has been illustrated quite clearly they DO pay taxes. If anything the situation is the exact opposite of what is being claimed by so many here; "illegals" actually are paying the same taxes as most everyone else WITHOUT the benefits others receive.

Another thing. Does anyone think that if California does not allow "illegals" access to in-state rates that somehow prospective students in Oregon or Nevada etc will somehow be better off? They won't be. Students in those states should be petitioning their governments for better education systems in THEIR state, not complaining about California. It sounds an awful lot like "If I can't get it, I don't want anyone else to have it either".

Ugly.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. If Oregon and Nevada had state income taxes,

their colleges would do better.

And yes, this thread presumes a few things that are not true. For one thing, many undocumented workers PAY INTO social security even though they will return to Mexico and never collect the benefits.

[tkmorris]

65. Yep

Taxes are widely held to be a dirty word but they shouldn't be, any more than the label "liberal" should be used as an epithet.

It's interesting I suppose. This sort of discussion and all the ugliness and greed it contains is exactly what you'd expect to get when you cut taxes so far that resources become scarce. Everyone starts scrambling to get their share of an already too small pie. Time to change.

[Aaron]

95. Oregon HAS a state income tax (n/t)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

100. You are correct, my apologies. Nevada does not..but Oregon

has no sales taxes. Either way, it does not undermine my basic premise that Oregon resists raising appropriate funds for their own and then expects my state should subsidize non-residents over residents who may not have proper documentation but still pay fees with every paycheck they make and every purchase they make.

[AP]

107. I want to emphasize it's not just because these people have already paid

into the system that justifies the lower fees for residents. It's that they and their families are more likely to pay back on the investment that California has made into their educaton.

Yes, they have paid into the system for at least three years (and for many, all their lives), but even more important, by giving them a break, their parents don't have to bust their asses to pay higher tuition, which frees them up to use their money in other ways to contribute to the economy (rather than paying it in interest to some bank HQ's in DE, NY or NC, which doesn't need any more money, either on the credit card debt you have to take on, or on the college loan itself).

If you're Californian, you're more likely to remain in CA, where you'll have a better a job, and you'll be smarter, thus making positive contributions to the local economy, and, like I said, your undburdened parents, benefitting from your own successes, will be able to make more valuable contributions as well.

If you're from NY, NV, OR, then California would be subsidizing your family, and you're career, which has a higher chance of not remaining in CA.

[MrPrax]

62. Ha Ha You can always Trust Liberals...

Few will ever ever see that one of the biggest forms of discrimination existing today is not minority, not women, not gay...
BUT
BUT
Discrimination based on education and income...
Solve this problem and the rest of the 'accommodation' strategies will be quickly solved

Universities are already subsidized for God Sakes...

[AP]

64. CAN WE PLEASE TURN THIS VOTE AROUND. I am ashamed to post at a DU

in which 70% of the posters are against this common sense policy.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. The poll itself is a magnet for freepers that register and never post

I agree.

[Deja Q]

71. Americans first!

If Corporate America gave a fuck about Americans and all Americans were educated and able, then I'd be all for helping every immigrant!

But, sorry, we can't even educate our own, and add the extra delightful bonus of corporate america exploiting jobs in other countries just so their execs can still have fat wallets while "cutting costs". They seem to prefer lower costs than the country's citizens and its/their stability.

America needs reform, big-time.

[AP]

72. My friends and neighbors first, regardless of citizenship!

That's actually what the US Constitution started off saying. You know, citizenship used not to be a requirement for voting, and the only way you could discriminate based on US citizenship was in jobs invovling national security (which is still the case, but immigration controls have been growing).

Immigration controls were a racist, right wing development which evolved later in America's history.

[Iris]

75. Would an illegal immigrant be able to register in a school without

consequences?

Wouldn't they need to show some sort of documentation because they wouldn't have a SSN or a birth certificate from the US or anything like that.

And if they are a legal alien, wouldn't they be required to pay state taxes not to mention other taxes, like sales tax and license fees?

[AP]

76. These are people who have already spent three years in a CA hig school

so, clearly, the UC system is looking at whatever the high school required. And if they're fit for education in a CA high school, and they're smart enough to get into a UC school, you are a ghoul if you now think they shouldn't be entitled to the same financial treatment as their next door neighbor.

[Iris]

80. For the record, I am not a ghoul.

And actually, I voted "yes" to this poll.

What I was trying to find out is if there was some documentation that they are here. I don't know if schools allow illegal immigrants to marticulate. To get into public school you have to have some kind of documentation which would mean the child or the parents would be registered somewhere as legal aliens, which would also mean they are putting money in some way, shape or form back into the system, so why wouldn't they be given in-state tuition?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

78. Iris, the real point is they DO PAY FEES VIA STATE TAXES

regardless of their documentation status. To deny them benefits that they DO PAY for would only serve to INCREASE the incentive for businesses that hire them under the radar to do so.

[Iris]

81. yes.

That is what I was trying to find out. I don't know how in the world someone would actually believe that an illegal immigrant could just enroll himself in a public school - k-12 or college.

So, if they are filing state income taxes, then yes they should be allowed to pay in-state tuition.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

84. Actually they may NOT be filing so they may not get the return

but since they are working in legit industries such as agriculture, construction, car washes and hotels/restaurants, the funds are withheld, paid to the state and they don't see a refund.
'BTW, I know you and were aware you were asking in earnest.

[Iris]

97. thanks. The question looked bogus to me.

And I wish AP had done an "Unfreep this poll" on this one.

[AP]

82. I'm so tempted to post an "unfreep this poll" message in GD.

With a link to this poll. Would that violate DU rules?

[catpower2000]

86. This thread is vile...

What do you think, they come across the border from cushy jobs and live here job-free, resting on their laurels and getting an education? Are you mental? Do you have any idea how hard undocumented workers have to work to make enough to feed themselves, much less be rolling in government handouts, as you infer?

We're talking about people who WORK in California, who pay PAYROLL taxes in California, so WTF???

Cat

[Bushknew]

87. Thank you DU

This place is such a great resource, I learn a lot when IÕm here.

Well TheYellowDog, I think DisgustipatedinCA , Dookus, AP, nothingshocksmeanymore and others here have given you the answers.

This poll only proves that we have many freepers at DU.

[Bushknew]

88. I must have tweaked the freepers here, this is how it started.

I must have tweaked the freepers here, this is how it started.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=99606&mesg_id=99606

[userdave2061]

89. Not only that but residents should pay more to help subsidize illegals

Free school, healthcare, licenses and transportation should be provided for all illegal immigrants. They deserve all the help we can provide. They work for next to nothing and provide a great service. The residents of CA should be coughing up alot more than the paltry sum they are providing now.

Why is it so hard to lend a helping hand to those that just want to be equal? Those in CA that don't like it can move and let the better-minded citizens run the state.

[Booberdawg]

90. Thanks DU "oldtimers" for clarifying this

the intitial argument was not credible to me. I knew some trusted names could clarify this issue, cause I don't have a frikkin clue about this, and I have now cast my vote.:D

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

92. OK a specific response to my claim that this thread demonstrates bigotry

whether KNOWN or UNKNOWN to the thread starter who feels I have unfairly used the "B" - word to describe the original post. I know no one is listening but I am going to explain my position that this is bigotry even if unconscious or subconscious.

thread starter said "There is a law in California that allows illegal immigrants to pay in-state tuition rates at public universities there. "

That is because they are a PERSON in this state paying fees associated with living in this state. They are in the UNITED STATES illegally but they are a PERSON IN THIS STATE. As such, we TREAT them like a person. Perhaps your state should TRY it some time.

Our national borders are a duty of the federal government to which California spends FAR more than we get back. Truth be told we probably get LESS back in economic benefit from all we send to Washington than from the migrant work force who do jobs one can't PAY an American to do.

Every once in a while their hard working nature lands them a BETTER JOB in a BETTER industry to which some reply, "THEY'RE TAKING OUR JOBS!!!!"

The thread starter says:This seems to me like a punch in the face to working families in California(AND other states) who are struggling already to afford tuition for their children, especially after the new tuition hikes.

Herein lies a whole world of bigotry in one sentence. It assumes the families of undocumented workers are NOT WORKING FAMILIES when that is NOT so. THEY COME HERE TO WORK. Often workers are here, their families are back in Mexico and they are paying into all the various funds from state disability to social security to state and federal taxes. Money they may never get back in benefits. That sum is NEVER ADDED to all the stories about how much they cost.

But just the assumption that a non working family is taking from working Americans (read WHITE) families is enough to have me smell it when I see it.


But then the poster in a response up above says: Maybe the people who voted yes would like to explain how this law is fair to working families in Nevada and Oregon who came here legally?

as though A) again these families aren't working and B) as though families who work in Oregon and don't pay into the funds that go to education in California are ENTITLED to be treated as though they do simply because they aren't ILLEGAL when ILLEGAL has nothing to do with whther or not they paid into these services.

FINALLY, if businesses didn't hire them....guess what...they wouldn't BE HERE. Frankly, the fines that businesses get for hiring undocumented work should be larger if caught and since THEY BENEFIT maybe THEY should make up the difference in service costs to our budget that undocumented labor represents.

Until then they are a HUMAN BEING in America and our constitution (both state and federal)basically CALLS for them to be treated as a human being.

[Booberdawg]

93. NSMA, You are mistaken on one minor point

I know no one is listening but ...

I'll bet I was not the only one that had this bookmarked.

Staggering how much disinformation one can .. initiate .. and perpetuate ... in 2 days ... and a couple hundred posts.

I was confused about this issue when I saw it presented, so I'm sure it was unintentional. That's why I bookmarked it and waited for clarification.

[sendero]

102. I've tried to read this thread....

.... because my vote would depend on one simple fact.

Is this 75% benefit available *only* to illegal immigrants or to everybody?

[redeye]

103. Every California resident, legal or not (n/t)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

104. Everybody who LIVES in California gets the resident status fees

on state colleges and U's

[sendero]

108. thank you....

.... in that case, I'm in favor of the "subsidy". Had it only been available to a certain set of folks, I wouldn't think that fair.

[buddhamama]

98. you imply in your post that,

charging more in tuition equals discrimination and therefore is prohibited by the Fourth Amendment? this is hardly the case. besides the fact that the SC has ruled in is Constitutional, similar taxation or increases in costs exist in other areas of cross state commerce.

example, if you live in MA but work in CT you are going to be 'charged' extra for doing it. both States want their share of the pie.

immigrants without proper documents use phoney papers to work ie. SS# green cards,etc.

if they have taxes taken out, how are they not paying into the system,
where does the free ride come from?

[AP]

109. The SC has said that the constitution forbids states from penalizing non-

state residents. It has said that giving in-state residents lower tuition isn't a penalty on out of state citizens.

Because the right wing wants to make it harder for schools to provide cheap educations for poor people (because, the more people who get educated, the more democrats you have -- higher levels of educational attainment is one of the strongest correlates to voting democratic after race), the right wing has attacked the in-state tuition preferences that make out-of-staters subsidize cheaper educations for in-staters).

Phyllis Schlafly is one of the right wingers who's out front on this issue. I think the right wing feels that if the cost of education goes up for in-staters, and down for out of staters, the fact that tuition will be higher will have a two-fold benefit: (1) it will cut out a lot of people from higher education, which conservatives would like, and (2) for those who remain, the higher tuitions many lower income will have to pay will force them to finance debt (more on this below).

So, what they're arguing is sort of like the anti-affirmative action argument. You can't give one person a leg-up, without hurting someone else. I.e., any consideration of race which is favorable for a black person is racial prejudice against a white person. With tuition, what they want to argue is that there's no way that a benefit for an in=stater isn't a penalty for an out-of-stater.

However, because the Supreme Ct has settled this issue constitutionally, (just as they've done now with racial preferences in the UofM case), I believe (from my research the past few days) that they're going to focus on suits in state courts rather than in Federal Court.

It's true that CA is more stringent about state citizenship vis tuition costs, but I believe all states with popular state colleges (U of Va, U of Mi, U of NC) have to take measures with their degree of stringency reflecting the popularity of the schools. I don't think many state courts are going to object to this reality.

This is one of those interesting issues where right wingers are being very sneaky, trying to undo progress and undo a liberal wealth-spreading, competitive economy. And there's also that angle where they want to make sure that prices go up, so that people have to spend more money and get more bank loans, and they want to make sure it's the poor and working class who have to spend more money, because they're the ones who have to finance their debt, which creates big big profits for some of the biggest Republican Party enthusiasts -- the credit card industry, and Wall St banks.

[eauclaireliberal]

105. I have to say NO.

For the simple reason that the repubs are cutting public education fuding (elementary schools, secondary schools AS WELL AS colleges) when there are TONS of disenfranchised folks-black Americans and veterans-who the system is systematically screwing over. These folks need quality schools and technical college funding in order to "...pull themselves up by their bootstraps" let alone the situation many of them are stuck in. Just MHO, probably valued at $.02.

[redeye]

106. If they're CA residents, they're eligible for the same benefits...

...and immigrants, legal or illegal, deserve those benefits to pull them out of poverty, too.

[Julien Sorel]

110. Those people come here, they work their asses off

doing jobs we won't do, at wages we won't take. They live in conditions we wouldn't live in. They pay taxes, just like you and I do. A lot of times, they pay payroll taxes, but don't file a tax return to get a refund check, so they pay more taxes than you or I do. They meet the residency requirements of California. But you somehow want to deny them access to a good secondary education? As residents of California, they earned that subsidy, just as I did when I lived there. They, and their parents, contribute taxes, and labor and intellect to the economy, just like I did. I do not see why, then, they shouldn't be able to enjoy the subsidy -- just like I did.

[LiberalBushFan]

111. make them legal or keep them illegal

Why have this quasi-illegal status? If they've been going to highschool here for three years, that should make it easier to become legal and get the subsidy. If there is no case for amnesty, well, send them back. I'd have no qualms about relaxing immigration laws if there's a reason (I don't know if there is now or not), but otherwise doesn't it make more sense to give aid directly to Mexico?

[0rganism]

113. Excluded middle, anyone?

Are there alternatives, other than "good idea" and "bad idea" that would make this poll more interesting?

How about, "everyone should be subsidized"?

or

"Limited subsidies for community colleges only"?