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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 10:21 AM
Original message
Saddam's daughter attends protest in Jordan

AMMAN, Jan 1 (Reuters) - Saddam Hussein's eldest daughter Raghd on Monday made a surprise visit to a sit-in held by hundreds of her father's Jordanian supporters to condemn his execution.

Hundreds of protesters including Islamists, deputies and opposition figures gathered in front of a building where a grouping of 14 professional unions is based, carrying pictures of Saddam and chanting anti-American and pro-Saddam slogans.

Raghd, who is exiled in Jordan, remained quiet throughout her short visit but used a loudspeaker to thank the participants for their support before leaving.

"I want to thank you for this show of support. May God protect you," she said.

On Sunday, dozens of Palestinians held a protest in Baqaa refugee camp north of Amman, following prayers which mourned Saddam's death. In the southern city of Karak, a tent set up by Jordanian Saddam supporters welcomed thousands of sympathisers, organisers said.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L01860837.htm
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 10:27 AM
Original message
I cannot imagine what is going through her mind right now...
Her father, on the one hand, had her husband murdered, but on the other, he was her father. And she just saw him hanged on worldwide television, over, and over, and over again.

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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. I was thinking the same thing.
The whole complexity of hating your father as the murderer of your husband, yet hating the foreign entity that captured and murdered your father. That isn't resolution by a long shot.
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Blue Gardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. If my father had my husband murdered
He would cease being my father. There is no forgiveness for such a horrible thing.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Ah, but what if you were told that your husband wanted to kill your father and was helping foreign
agents to accomplish that very task?

Nothing is as simple as it seems....
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
8. she embodies the dilema that
many arabs have today.

what's the difference between a heavy handed patriarchal arab world -- and a heavy handed imperialist one?

who has choices?

the arab world is kept in a continuous state of disarray -- unable to look inward and contemplation.

always being forced to dance to a tune not their own.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. And the Sunni - Shi'a dichotomy is not a mere tiff. It is, dare I say, fundamental.
A few decades back, the west "bought time" by setting our pitbull Saddam against the new dawg on the block, the Ayatullah Khomeini.

Now, it would seem that we are buying more time by encouraging a Shi'a minority (and make NO mistake, they are a majority in (NON-Arab, mind) Iran and (principally, but not entirely, Arab) Iraq, but across the Arab world, they are definitely a minority.

And Iran is such a 'powerhouse' that they have to IMPORT almost half of the gasoline they use, because they have absolutely no refining capacity.

What better way to keep those putzes in a box?

How long before the good people of Iran say "Enough!!!! Already!!!"???
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. iran -- like america -- is full of true believers.
there are folk by the basket loads who really do follow every word of the ayatollahs.

just like the basket loads of folk who follow pat and jerry and their crew.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. There are just as many (to put it conservatively) who have had enough.
The bulk of the population wasn't even born when the revolution happened. They text message each other, and the ayatullahs don't know how to control that. They are all over the internet, and they've figured out how to get around the censors. They are sick to DEATH of the chastity, the bullshit, the no fun. They have house parties all the time because they can't go out in public, their only worry is some rat-bastard neighbor finking to the morality police.

Iran is ripe for change. They just need to do it themselves. We should have NOTHING to do with it; the only thing we should do is be nice to them if they manage to toss those "Guardians" to the curb.

The American "true believers" were once said to be 80 or even 90 percent of the population, at least, after 'Nine Wun Wun changed everything.' I always thought that number was bullshit. It certainly didn't correlate to my personal experience.

I think it's a good idea not to believe everything touted as conventional wisdom. It suits some folks to sell an idea of a nation of dedicated nutcakes supporting a crazed, repressive dictatorship-in-essence, with the dictator being the unseen, unelected Supreme Leader pulling the strings of the idiotic "president" who has no real power (he doesn't control the armed forces, for example). It suits some to present Iran as a mighty force with tons of money. In reality, they have NO Navy (when once they had a decent one) and NO Air Force. Their Army is big in one thing--numbers. As for equipment, they've got old crap. They excel in asymetrical warfare, because that's all they've got--primitive explosives and cannon fodder. Their infrastructure is crumbling--they haven't done any military installation maintenance since the Shah left, hardly. Now, we know that wars can be won in that fashion, it's all a matter of determination, but they aren't a mighty and powerful nation. For now, they have leaders who are very willing to spill blood. The Iran-Iraq war is still an important memory to most families, all of whom lost many in that war, and they may not have the same taste for war and sacrifice that those fatass ayatullahs have.

I don't see the average Iranian on the street as being overjoyed at the prospect of war without end, Amen. I think they'd rather take in a first-run movie, eat some good ice cream, listen to some music, and maybe do some dancing...in public, with friends of both sexes.

Talk to some Persians; you might be very surprised. They're sick to death of the boot of religion hard on their necks and constantly spoiling their fun; many would welcome a more secular society and a real, not a show, democracy.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. uh yeah --
i have persian friends here and in london.

i'll stand by my observation.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. I used to live there, and have friends still suffering there.
Edited on Tue Jan-02-07 05:32 PM by MADem
So, I will stand by mine.

Edited to add a link to an article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3053383.stm
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tchunter Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. actually in the last iranian wargames they tested several new weapons
including the hoot torpedo thats faster than any other torpedo (i believe its based on russian design) iran also domestically manufactures its own mbt's and multi-role fighters and has made gains in missile technology.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Piece of crap with no reliable guidance system. Sabre-rattling, to no effect at all.
They bought a shitload of their missile inventory from North Korea, and we know how well their stuff works. If they are basing their homegrown models on that junk, they've got trouble. Their 'fighters' are built on the airframes of crap we left behind. That stupid plane they premiered was a total joke--it looked like a cross between an F-4 and an F-14. Clunky as hell. They're in the hurt locker, make no mistake.

Certainly, you can make up for crap quality with sheer volume, but they are still in a situation where they have a goodly amount of crap, and crap it is, but not a massive amount. You need massive amounts, really, to overcome quality difficulties like they have.

The idea behind that Hoot torpedo is to scare us from patrolling the Gulf. If you read between the lines of the commentary in this article which describes, in great detail, what the Iranians SAY the missile can do, but doesn't offer any independent verification of said capabilities, http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/04/03/iran_touts_torpedo_claims_superiority/ the USN commander is basically saying, without coming right out and saying so *cough*bullshit*cough*.

If you look at pictures of their facilities, they're damned near derelict. They aren't even sparing the camelshit and straw with a bit of "brownwash" (as opposed to whitewash) to make their buildings look halfway respectable. That's a readiness indicator, along with their goofy airplanes and grandiose claims.

I'm not saying they couldn't hit Israel. I'm simply saying they couldn't hit Israel with any accuracy, and would risk hitting the doggone Dome of the Rock or any other important Islamic landmark if they started launching willynilly. That's probably enough to give them pause; it wouldn't do for a Shi'a government to be hitting Holy Places by mistake!
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tchunter Donating Member (236 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. well i personally think they have the ability of the shut down the straight of hormuz
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. They might harrass us a bit, but I don't think they can. I will feel for those poor Coasties
in their minesweepers, though, because that's the easiest way to do it if they DID want to close the strait down. Only problem is, it interferes with their commerce, as well, so they're cutting off their nose to spite their face. Iran has serious cash flow problems, they can't afford to stop selling their main product. As it is, they import almost half of the gasoline that they use, because they have no refining capacity because their infrastructure is hosed.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/pgulf.html

In 2003, the vast majority (about 90%) of oil exported from the Persian Gulf transited by tanker through the Strait of Hormuz , located between Oman and Iran. The Strait consists of 2-mile wide channels for inbound and outbound tanker traffic, as well as a 2-mile wide buffer zone. Oil flows through the Strait of Hormuz account for roughly two-fifths of all world traded oil, and closure of the Strait of Hormuz would require use of longer alternate routes (if available) at increased transportation costs. Such routes include the approximately 5-million-bbl/d-capacity East-West Pipeline across Saudi Arabia to the port of Yanbu, and the Abqaiq-Yanbu natural gas liquids line across Saudi Arabia to the Red Sea. The 15.0-15.5 million bbl/d or so of oil which transit the Strait of Hormuz goes both eastwards to Asia (especially Japan, China, and India) and westwards (via the Suez Canal, the Sumed pipeline, and around the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa) to Western Europe and the United States.


OTOH, If they start shooting at our vessels rather than try the minesweeping route, we simply put aircraft aloft and we bomb the shit out of the launch sites. They know this, so they won't be in a hurry to shoot at us too often unless they're suicidal.

It's a dangerous cat and mouse game, certainly, but it doesn't have to go beyond taunts and finger wagging unless some putz on either team makes a terribly stupid decision to do just that.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Pardon me, I accidentally doubleclicked. NT
Edited on Mon Jan-01-07 10:31 AM by MADem

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Lawrence Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
2. vvvv
I would assume it to be more tactful had she drawn as little attention to herself as possible
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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. She doesn't have any obligation to impress someone with
her tactfulness.

She's lived a very difficult life, and it is a good thing that she is articulating her view on world affairs (I applaud any citizen who does so).
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SemperEadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. She'll become the new dictator of Iraq
I wouldn't be surprised to see her catapulted into the spotlight now.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. That isn't just unlikely, that's damned near impossible. She is SUNNI.
The Sunnis are an endangered species in greater Baghdad, frankly. They're certainly endangered when it comes to any access to government power.

Sunnis are going to be retaliated against until Shi'a excesses even the score.
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Cass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. I heard on CNN last night that she is being accused of funding insurgents
with Saddam's money. I didn't catch who was making this accusation. They went on to say that since she is prohibited from engaging in political acts as a condition of her exile this may jeopardize her exile in Jordan. Did anyone else hear this? I was half asleep and may have misheard. I haven't heard it again today or seen it online.

:shrug:
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Well, the Saudis came right out and told Dick Cheney that they intended to do exactly that
if he even THOUGHT about rapproachment with Iran...so, ya never know...

That said, if King Abdullah had a problem with his guest, who lives under his protection, going to that rally, she wouldn't have gone at all.

What isn't said here is that the Saudis, Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, and others are all lining up on the side opposite the Shi'a power structure in Iraq and Iran. We need to just get out of there, and let this little civil war/broader insurgency take hold, because at this point that IS what is going to happen anyway, like it or not.

It's one way to keep the two sides busy, unfortunate though it may be. If they are slugging it out amongst themselves, they aren't going to have much time, funds or energy to make trouble elsewhere.
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Cass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. From what I recall of the segment, they said her exile could be in jeopardy because of the
insurgency funding aspect not necessarily because of her attendance at the protest. I do agree with you, though, that if King Abdullah had a problem with any of her activities she wouldn't be engaging in them. I wish I had caught the part about who was making these accusations against her - it would have explained a lot I'm sure.

This whole thing has the potential to blow sky-high now after Saddam's execution. What a mess.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. This might be helpful to you
Edited on Wed Jan-03-07 01:07 AM by MADem
http://195.224.230.11/english/jordan/?id=16881

Iraq demands Saddam daughter extradition


Jordan stands by Raghad who is under royal familys protection despite Iraqs extradition call.


By Randa Habib - AMMAN

US ally Jordan is insisting that deposed Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's eldest daughter remains under its protection, despite calls from the US-backed authorities in Baghdad for her extradition.


Jordanian Prime Minister Maaruf Bakhit stressed that no formal extradition request had yet been received from Iraq following national security advisor Muwaffaq al-Rubaie's identification Sunday of Raghdad Saddam Hussein as his country's 16th most wanted fugitive.

Bakhit said the ousted Iraqi president's daughter had complied with the conditions of her asylum in Jordan and remained under the protection of the reigning Hashemite royal family of King Abdullah II.


"She is the guest of the Hashemite royal family and under its protection as a seeker of asylum" in accordance with Arab tradition, he told the official Petra news agency.


Raghad had heeded demands that she refrain from "any political or media activities", the premier added, contradicting accusations by Rubaie that she was a "significant financial supporter of insurgents in Iraq"....



You know how it goes, though--the enemy of my enemy, and all that. A quick glance at Jordan's annual budget shows piles of dough injected into that country from both the US and Saudi Arabia. Abdullah would be a fool not to let Raghad follow her conscience, especially if his good pal and benefactor the Saudi King suggested it might not be a bad idea. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the House of Saud is using the gal as a funnel of sorts....! The bottom line is that Shi'as gaining power is not a happy situation for Jordan, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Egypt, or most of the smaller nations in the region. And one thing Sunnis have, that Shi'as have less of, by and large, is MONEY. I see a lot of dough being tossed around that region in future...arms suppliers stand to get rich, again, I guess...
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Cass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thank you so much for that article. I see that its the Iraq National Security
Advisor who is making these accusations against her and he's calling for her to be extradicted to Iraq? Oh boy.

Like you, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the House of Saud has its hands deep into the situation. Oh to have been a fly on the wall at Cheney's recent Saudi meeting.

Thanks again for that article.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Anytime. I am watching the Sunni-Shi'a fissure in the region with great interest, myself
And knowing how much dough the Saudis toss at Jordan, and the many hisses and spits that have occurred between Abdullah's crew and al-Maliki's of late, I sort of suspected that this was the opinion of the Iraqi government and wasn't a threat to the safety or continued asylum of Raghad.

This bit in the piece sort of lays out how little love there is between the two nation-states:

Jordan has had sometimes difficult relations with the Shiite-led government installed in Iraq after the US-led invasion of 2003.


The prominent role played by some Jordanians in the Sunni Arab insurgency, most notoriously the late Al-Qaeda frontman Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, has fanned anti-Jordanian sentiment among Iraq's newly empowered Shiite majority.


King Abdullah has also angered the Iraqi authorities by warning of the mounting influence of Shiite Iran in Jordan's eastern neighbour....

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