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The Sushi Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 04:57 PM
Original message
Reopen 9/11 investigation, local group says
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2006612310307

A Burlington group has gathered nearly enough signatures on a petition to put a ballot question before voters on Town Meeting Day urging a new investigation of the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001.

Spokesman Marc Estrin, a Burlington writer and musician, said the group has been meeting for several months and has more than 1,200 of the roughly 1,350 signatures needed to place the matter on the ballot. The question would advise the Vermont congressional delegation to demand a new 9/11 investigation.

Estrin said Burlington would be the first city in the country to formally make such a demand.
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Hailtothechimp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Of course 9/11 should be reopened.
It's the linchpin for everything Bush has done for 6 years. And when the truth, whatever it may be, finally comes out, it will be a new day. May we live to see it happen.
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. I agree it should be reopened.
we have to dig out the rotten eggs of both parties.
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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hurray for my hometown!! (eom)
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. It needs to be opened, after that lying bias shit report they forced on it...
And people actually believe the governments report...the fucking lying ass partisan government!
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. May many more cities do the same!
We must not, as a country, keep pulling the bedcovers over our heads.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kick for the truth.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. I love that state..
and am also curious about what info Elliot Spitzer may have collected over the last few years.
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babsbunny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
7. It Must be done! They might orchestrate another 911 to make the Dems
look weak!
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. And they might stick flying monkeys up Nanci Pelosi's knickers!
And they might throw babies from incubators!
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Your mixed metaphors cloud the issue, yibbe. The incubator
babies were a lie concocted by the Hill & Knowlton PR firm and spread by the daughter
of the Kuwaiti ambassador, who impersonated a nurse in the telling.

Incubator babies = WMD

Incubator babies >< 9/11 truth
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
10. Bravo Burlington!
We must know all the truth!
MIHOP!
:hi:
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Quite a few people...
here fightin' hard to prevent it. I can only think of a couple of reasons why, but that 36% of the country is bat-shit crazy is not one of them. Let's have the new independent investigation, and put this to bed once and for all. I need to breath free, clean air again. Thanks.
quickesst
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Twist_U_Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. I think Ill start one here in my home city.
as should everyone in theirs.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Organize a screening of "9/11: Press for Truth"
It's the story of the 9/11 widows who asked for answers, and
their disappointment in the 9/11 Commission's sham investigation.

All the research is from mainstream sources. It's bulletproof.

The first good 9/11 movie. This is the one you can take your Republican
uncle to.

trailer: http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

See the whole movie: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5589099104255077250

See the movie in NYC 1/14 or in Virginia Beach 1/09: http://pressfortruth.bravenewtheaters.com/screenings

Organize your own screening:

http://bravenewtheaters.com/home/host



How can anyone argue that the widows don't deserve answers?




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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Vermont has wonderful Bernie Sanders
I have Jim McDermott (in Congress) who is great, but he is drowning in legal fees from the GOP, and he hardly does anything anymore, sadly. I'm sure he knows though.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. A little OT
I am on Jim McDermott's mailing list and have been blown away by the lawsuit. Although he is not my rep, nor in my state, I have donated to him.

You are correct. He is a great man.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Good for you.
That's what happens to those who stand up to the "machine".
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Daveparts Donating Member (854 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-01-07 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
19. The Twilight Zone Tower






You know America is such a funny place, land of the free home of the brave. Freest of the free but there are some topics that are strictly verboten! I can call the President a war criminal and a murderer and most people will just nod saying Well, youre entitled to your opinion. But if you begin to present evidence to that affect, with apologies to Rod Serling youve just crossed over into the Twilight Zone. You are a conspiracy theorist and in America a conspiracy theorist is only one step above child abuser, scab or a racist.

Now understand at a murder investigation the police use detectives and technicians to gather evidence and formulate a theory as to who might have committed the crime. Then they take their case to our court systems the judge or jury decides by the weight of evidence whose theory they accept as most likely being true. Now the police detective looks for a motive, and for who would be capable of the crime and for who doesnt have a good alibi or whos stories dont ring true. But now youre no investigator heck you dont even have a badge! But as Bart Simpson once asked Do you have to get all As to be a policeman? Youre a conspiracy theorist, your just looking for who may have had motive and the ability to commit the crime and who doesnt have a good alibi and when their stories dont ring true, see the difference?

It seems that every time I try to research some aspect of 9/11 I end up somewhere else.
I was trying to find out about the tapes of interviews with the New York tower air traffic controllers I was just being curious I wasnt out looking for a conspiracy.

Washington Post Thursday, May 6, 2004
Six air traffic controllers provided accounts of their communications with hijacked planes on Sept. 11, 2001, on a tape recording that was later destroyed by Federal Aviation Administration managers, according to a government investigative report issued today.
It is unclear what information was on the tape because no one ever listened to, transcribed or duplicated it, the report by the Department of Transportation inspector general said
Hours after the hijacked planes flew into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and a Pennsylvania field, an FAA manager at the New York Air Route Traffic Control Center gathered six controllers who communicated or tracked two of the hijacked planes and recorded in a one-hour interview their personal accounts of what occurred, the report stated.
The manager, who is not named in the report, said that his intentions were to provide quick information to federal officials investigating the attack before the air traffic controllers involved took sick leave for the stress of their experiences, as is common practice.
According to the report, a second manager at the New York center promised a union official representing the controllers that he would "get rid of" the tape after controllers used it to provide written statements to federal officials about the events of the day.
Instead, the second manager said he destroyed the tape between December 2001 and January 2002 by crushing the tape with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into trash cans around the building, the report said.
Washington Post
Thursday, May 6, 2004

Now if you are the trusting sort you might say he just made a mistake. But now if youre of a suspicious nature or a low down conspiracy theorist you might ask, why destroy the tape? What reason? Negligence? Do you suppose it went something like this?
Bill when the first plane hit the tower what were you doing? Well sir, I had just burnt my lip on my crack pipe so I went down to the bar to get another beer. And John is that how you remember it? I dont know sir I was asleep at the time. Under those conditions I could understand the FAA destroying a tape. But there is absolutely no evidence that the controllers did anything wrong, so why did they destroy this tape?

The official reason,

According to the report, a second manager at the New York center promised a union official representing the controllers that he would "get rid of" the tape after controllers the used it to provide written statements to federal officials about the events of the day. It is unclear what information was on the tape because no one ever listened to, transcribed or duplicated it, the report by the Department of Transportation inspector general said.

Well that makes perfect sense, everyone knows what a close relationship unions and management have. What it tells me a low down conspiracy theorist is the controllers in deed did nothing wrong. So, again why destroy the tape? Officially it was used it to provide written statements to federal officials about the events of the day. Why that answer makes perfect sense except as Colombo would say Ah just one more thing
didnt you say?

It is unclear what information was on the tape because no one ever listened to, transcribed or duplicated it, the report by the Department of Transportation inspector general said

Pea cue Lar aint it? So according to Federal officials, the air controllers that had communications with the high jacker's after the event then gave statements on tape for the purpose of supplying a basis for a written statement. But the tape was never listened to or transcribed but destroyed and then obliterated into irretrievable pieces and the controllers then gave written statements under the auspices of their government employer. Can anyone out there in Internet land give me a reason other than that the taped statements didnt match the written statements? You see I have a suspicious nature and after all Im a low down conspiracy theorist.

What does the government say?

"We believe the audiotape in question appears to be consistent with written statements and other materials provided to FBI investigators and would not have added in any significant way to the information contained in what has already been provided to investigators and members of the 9/11 commission," said FAA spokesman Greg Martin.

But how can you be so sure? I guess well just have to take your word for it, besides what else could he say there is no evidence is there?

One controller said she asked to listen to the tape in order to prepare her written account of her experience, but one of the managers denied her request.

I wonder why? Wasnt that the stated purpose of making the tape in the first place? But then you already know what I think; Im a low down conspiracy theorist.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Umm, not quite right
> But if you begin to present evidence to that affect, with apologies to Rod Serling youve just crossed over into the Twilight Zone. You are a conspiracy theorist and in America a conspiracy theorist is only one step above child abuser, scab or a racist.

No, if you present credible evidence to substantiate your conspiracy speculations, then you will not be called a "conspiracy theorist." For example, the people who accused BushCo and the neocons all along of exploiting 9/11, distorting intelligence and outright lying to drag us into Iraq were never called "conspiracy theorists." That term has become an idiomatic expression meaning somewhat more than the literal meaning of the separate words: "conspiracy theorists" are people who speculate about implausible conspiracies without any credible evidence, always working backward from their preferred conclusions, fitting whatever they can into their theories even if it needs a little twisting, but completely ignoring absolutely everything that doesn't fit. Sorry if that offends you, but you need to blame the "conspiracy theorists" before you who have made that the standard meaning.

> Now understand at a murder investigation the police use detectives and technicians to gather evidence and formulate a theory as to who might have committed the crime. Then they take their case to our court systems the judge or jury decides by the weight of evidence whose theory they accept as most likely being true. Now the police detective looks for a motive, and for who would be capable of the crime and for who doesnt have a good alibi or whos stories dont ring true.

Well, if you stop there and try to take your case to court without any real evidence that your theory is correct, thankfully our system of justice will throw the case out. "Beyond reasonable doubt" means you can't convict someone of murder based on suspicions and innuendo and circumstantial evidence that has other possible interpretations.

But cheer up: When you've got a case that stands at least a reasonable chance in court, you won't be called a "conspiracy theorist" anymore.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 04:11 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Can't be proved in court, NOW I get it
So that's why no one has been held accountable for Katrina, Iraq, election fraud and a host of other perceived misdeeds. Those claims are just from crazy conspiracy theorists, and the proof is that he hasn't been charged with anything, because surely he would have been if there were really malfeasance, right? I get it now, you'd better go let some of the people here at DU know about that, except I have a feeling you won't get a very good reception....
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. What standard would you prefer to use when you're charging someone with murder?
Maybe "I think he's guilty, let's lynch him?"
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Your memory seems to have failed you. People who disputed that
Iraq had WMDs were called conspiracy theorists. People (including Gray Davis) who said that energy companies were responsible for California's recent "energy crisis" were called conspiracy theorists.

References to the "grassy knoll" and "conspiracy theories" have been made by each of Ari, Scott and Tony in regards to multiple suspicions of Bush administration malfeasance.
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William Seger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. By whom? Bush's press secretaries?
Really? :eyes:
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. I agree with what you say, Dave , and welcome to DU
How can ANYONE defend throwing that tape out? and I've seen them defend it! Destroying evidence used to be a crime, and now you are a "paranoid conspiracy theorist" if you think it could be anything other than an accident.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Hi Daveparts
and welcome to DU :hi:

You ask a lot of good questions. I hope that when you get enough post counts and can post your own threads, that you visit us down in the 9-11 forum http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=125 and post more of this sort of thing down there.

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The Sushi Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
20. An 8Pm Maui Kick!!!!
Im all for re-opening it!
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The Sushi Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. .
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The Sushi Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-03-07 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. Kick it!
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
25. I'm trying to think of one reason it should not be reopened, with a broader mandate.
Edited on Tue Jan-02-07 05:34 AM by oblivious
I can't think of any. And I'm wondering what kind of people would object to it being examined more closely. The mastermind has been in US custody for a couple of years. It would be nice for the world to hear about the conspiracy from his own mouth. It would clear up so many questions.

edit: spelling
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UWS_DEM Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Fitz
At the risk of spiraling into the CT's, does anyone else find it a coincidence that the great Patrick Fitzgerald conveniently got promoted to a new job in Chicago at the time of 9/11?

Nominated in Sept, approved in Oct. Thereby removing him from Southern District of NY.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Interesting about Fitz's job transfer to Chicago.
Edited on Tue Jan-02-07 11:04 AM by petgoat
Fitz was involved in the prosecution of the Blind Sheikh's al Qaeda cell
after the '93 WTC bombing, and thus surely knew that the US Army Sergeant,
Ali Mohammed, who provided weapons training to the group, was not charged.

Later Fitz handled Ali Mohammed's plea bargain with respect to his participation
in the African embassy bombings. Ali Mohammed pled guilty, but has never been
sentenced and nobody knows where he is today. His demonstrated ties to the FBI
lead many to suspect that he was let free.

In the mid-nineties, Fitz was involved in a high-level investigation of al Qaeda
and Osama bin Laden.



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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. why it should not be reopened
Edited on Tue Jan-02-07 11:05 AM by petgoat
People don't want to know.

It might damage consumer confidence, and how can we sell all those
SUVs if people won't go into debt to buy them?

It might mean admitting to the world that we were wrong, and that
would send a message of weakness in a world of threat.

Democrats have to be nice to the Bushcist terrorists, or
else how will they win any elections?

Those Jersey widows have already had their fifteen minutes and enjoyed
their husbands' deaths too much already. They got their million-dollar
benefit fund and all the tranquilizers they can eat, free. What do they
want? Why do they think they should get answers to their questions? The
rest of us don't get answers--why should they? Do they think they're
special or something?

It's disrespectful to the dead to try to find out what happened to them.
Leave them alone.

We've already spent so much money and so many lives fighting terrorists in
Iraq, let's just drop it, okay?




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ktlyon Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. no, let's not drop it
It could lead to the truth.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. "It could lead to the truth."
Truth? Can't have that. Bad for business.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. I HEAR you, petgoat. Those are just a FEW of the very excellent reasons not
to re-open. But you forgot your :sarcasm:

And face it, most people really don't want to know that the leaders of our country would deliberately kill 3000 Americans and lie to us continuously to achieve their political and financial goals.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. It is a terrible thing
to realize that your own leaders could do such a thing to their own people. No one wants to believe that.

Most of us were raised to believe, that we're a Democracy. We're the greatest country in the world. That sort of thing isn't suppose to happen here.

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durtee librul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-02-07 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. It never used to
until the Bushes were born.....
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-04-07 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
41. For openers let's get those 18 pages Cheney & Bush had removed from public viewing!!
This time question Bush under oath and without Cheney holding his hand...
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-04-07 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Are you talking about the Joint House/Senate Committee report
on 9/11?
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The Sushi Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-04-07 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Hear Hear!!
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