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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 02:28 PM
Original message
Netherlands to expel 26,000 immigrants
The Netherlands has announced plans to expel as many as 26,000 failed asylum seekers to their native countries, The Times of London reported.

The deportation order amounts to one in 600 of the population, and mostly affects people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia. Some have been in the Netherlands for 11 years, speak Dutch, have integrated into society and have children settled in schools, the newspaper said.

http://www.nni-news.com/current/world/news-11.htm
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Bombero1956 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. alas
Even in Holland we can find neocons.
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Algorem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Maybe they were Bogarting the joints,man.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
3. Human Rights Watch: Safety of Failed Netherlands Asylum Seekers at Risk
Press release from Human Rights Watch
Dateline Friday February 13

Netherlands: Safety of Failed Asylum Seekers at Risk
Planned Deportations Would Put Thousands in Danger, Violate International Law

Dutch proposals to deport thousands of failed asylum seekers put their safety at risk, Human Rights Watch said today. The Dutch parliament is expected to adopt the proposals in a final vote next week.
The Dutch governments proposals to deport as many as 26,000 failed asylum seekers, which would violate international standards, signal a serious departure from the Netherlands historic role as a leader in human rights protection in Europe, Human Rights Watch said in a letter to Dutch Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk.
The failed asylum seekersincluding childrenwould be deported over the next three years. Many have been in the asylum process for years, and include Somalis, Afghans, Chechens, and stateless persons. Human Rights Watch is concerned that sending people back to states without a functioning government, such as Somalia, or to states otherwise insecure due to continuing post-conflict violence, like Afghanistan, would place their safety at risk.

Read more.
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mike1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
21. Uh, just exactly to where do you deport a "stateless person"? Mars?
:eyes:
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for asylum
But, Muslims are becoming a very large anti -gay force in Europe/Holland, and are not making friends in that very liberal segment of Dutch society.
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belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. The poor kids, though...
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Product of Evolution Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Pim Fortuyn was gay...
Scaring the tolerant Dutch about Arab homophobia was one of his main weapons.
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chasqui Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Interesting point
The french are rushing straight into a cultural clash with their sizeable muslim minority, and the dutch are kicking out 1/200th of their population, most of whom are likely to be muslim. These european countries are not known for their institutional intolerance for minorities, but it now seems like cultural homogeneity is more important to them.
I wonder. What is more important to us....liberal values, or ethnic cultural preservation?
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Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. You can't have liberal values...

...without preserving the culture that produced those values. It has nothing to do with ethnicity.

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chasqui Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. That is an oxymoron
If you have a judgemental culture, such as Fundamentalist Islam/Christianity, living side by side with a liberal culture, which approves of something like gay marriage, then you are bound to have a clash or two. Or when you have protestants & catholics living side by side in France, in the 16th century, you will get a clash or two.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
24. but gays do not run the place, RW government does.
RW typically isn't very gay- or liberal friendly.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. The planet is in one big mess. (eom)
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
7. I do feel sorry for the children....but the parents have
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 04:04 PM by DemEx_pat
appealed their cases, some 3 or 4 times, in the courts and have lost, so under Dutch law they must leave.
The Minister in charge of this enforcement of Dutch law insists that desperate cases have been given a pardon, and that some of these rejected asylum seekers have criminal records, or human rights abuse records in their home counrtries....while many are here for economic betterment, not political/persecution asylum.


But it remains a tragedy for individual people.

DemEx


BTW - I know several Arghani immigrants here with status to stay who are reurning home of free will....a family 4 months ago to Kabul, and a young 21 year old returning to his parents who were in Pakistan under the Taliban regime.

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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. Viewpoint from a Norwegian.
We have and have had one of the greatest welfare states. Unfortunately, mass immigration combined with a welfare state is a recipe for disaster. A welfare state is based on a community spirit where everyone contributes to the best of their abilities. When the unity of societ is slowly torn asunder the bedrock of a progressive welfare societ is torn apart. You cannot be pro-gay rights and wanna contribute government money to a mosque.

We cannot just having won the war against fundamentalist christianity surrender to fundametalist Islam.

I am sorry, if I offend some of you, but I urge you to think about it.
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KayLaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Thank you
It is very interesting to hear from a Norwegian.

:hi:
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
28. and thanks to you too
It is great to be able to get hear from so many likeminded people.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Thanks for sharing that interesting comment & welcome to DU
It is a dilemna, isn't it? In some ways I think it is similar to the issue of headscarves in France. A cycle of tolerance leading to the possibility of immigrants with intolerance for the very society which welcomed them.

As progressives I say, live and let live; but if John Ashcroft wanted to bring 500,000 more of HIS kind into our country I would want to tell him, "Stay home!"
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
29. It is a dilemma alright.
Do a google on Bruce Bawyer. He is a gay excellent writer who currently lives in Norway.

It was kind of typical of these issues that catholics and muslims recently stood side by side demonstrating against gay marriage in San Fransisco.
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. You made an essential point, Kurt.
Well said!

DemEx
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
30. thanks.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I Don't Have *Too* Much a Problem With It
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 06:13 PM by Crisco
Not so long ago, the actor John Rhys-Davies caught a lot of flak for saying Western Culture/Civ needs to protect its heritage. If there are racist elements to it, that's not so good, but IMO we've come too far in the enlightenment to allow ourselves to be turned back to the dark ages. That's why I don't criticize France for its recent actions on religious gear.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. I think that Rhys-Davies comments did smell a little bit of
paranoia, but I do agree with him on point. These issues should be discussed openly and not swept under the carpet.
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Don_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. I Feel The Same Way About The US
And will not surrender it to our Republican Fasists that "need" as cheap a source of labor as Hitler had in Nazi Germany.
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anti-NAFTA Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Interesting.
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 07:46 PM by anti-NAFTA
Which Norwegian political party do you support? What do you think of assassinated Dutch politician Fortuyn?

edit: I 100% agree with you. Mass immigration will finish by destroying socialism. I have seen it in France where most of my family lives. Although I am of Algerian (Jewish) ancestry, there have to be some limits.
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KurtNilsen Donating Member (595 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #15
32. Sosialistisk Venstreparti
is the party I used to support (The Socialistic Left party which is to the left of Arbeiderpartiet (Labour), but as I have grown older my views have moderated somewhat. Besides, I feel that the socialistic Left have become too populist and lost touch with its ideological foundation.

I really liked Fortuyn, and his assasination was a terrible tragedy...

And regarding mass immigration.. The Norwegian conservatives are the biggest supporters of open borders. You draw your own conclusion.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. community spirit
"A welfare state is based on a community spirit"

sure.
Would that be why back in the 80's the notion of "individualism" started being promoted? It's not like there was any lack of individualism in Europe (Japan maybe, but not Europe). So now this individualism ends up being selfishness, which isn't a basis for a welfare state. I the mean time we have RW government proclaiming the welfare state has to be dismantled because it'd be better that way.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
17. The people of the world are forcing themselves on each other
Retaining cultures is essential. But without imposition, without demands. The core of all is respect.

Should young non-prostitute girls walk around on the street in a city and go to work with only a little more cloth on than a pole dancer in a bar when that city is heavily populated by Moslems?

Adaptation. Accomodation. Out of respect. With tempered laws to match.

All of the technology of communication put us in this mess with a battle of wills.

It's possible to overcome it with respectful negotition and compromise and no impositions.

Ashcroft, get thee gone. Fundamenatalists, you seem to have started all this. Unthinking citizens of the world, you contributed. Unknowledgeable citizens of the world, you're failing your brothers by remaining ignorant.

We're all in this together against those who wish to own us. We should straighten it all out among ourselves.

Note to self: Never provide an example, they are always imperfect, and they cause diversions from the focus of the message.
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
20. Facisim and racism reigns....the tone is set in America
They follow America in fashion, music, mores, and morality.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I don't think that such great inroads have been made, but apparently

the feudalists feel threatened enough by the timid little bubbles of tolerance and harmony that have sprung up here and there, that they are bound and determined to balkanize the entire world.

Hide your bread! The Brown Menace Cometh!

while raising the price of bread and refusing to pay a Living Wage, Fear of Others is about the easiest destructive force to crank up anyway, but the Coprations are pulling out all the stops.

If serfs can be made to hate each other enough, the lords need not fear rebellion. Any problem you have, it's that meanbad tribe over there. Hide your bread!
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Democracies have the right to defend themselves from extremists
Fundementalist religious wackos are a problem all over the world and it goes far beyond skin color. These Bornagain ChristoIslamoScientoZionistHinduistic are threat to thinking people everywhere.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. "Fundementalist religious wackos" is not equal to "immigrants"
so what's your point?
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-04 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
27. Many more have been admitted.
Edited on Sun Feb-15-04 05:59 AM by DemEx_pat
These are those who have repeatedly lost their appeals to the courts - Dutch law specifies that there is no right for them to obtain asylum here.

These laws are the same as the ones in place during the leftist government reign - it is the enforcement of the law that is the change in policy.

DemEx

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