U.S. soldier seeks asylum in Canada

[SidDithers]

Wonder if we'll be seeing more of this...

http://www.canoe.com/CNEWS/Canada/2004/02/19/353505-ap.html

Sid

[liberalnurse]

1. Sure we will......

I bet there are quite a few already but this is the first event to leak out.

[lebkuchen]

169. There have been lots of no-shows since before the war

and even more after. Like the coffins returning from Iraq/Afghanistan, the media chooses not to cover the story.

[KDLarsen]

2. I like this bit...

<snip>
... could be prosecuted as a deserter if he is caught inside the United States.
<snip>

Bush did the exact same thing, but instead of an arrest, he was given the white house.

[Muddleoftheroad]

3. I hope he is arrested

It is a volunteer army. He volunteered.

[NNN0LHI]

4. Did he volunteer to protect America or Halliburton? Thats the question n/t

[Muddleoftheroad]

5. He doesn't get that choice

He volunteered. He does not make the decisions of what he protects or where he does it.

[NNN0LHI]

7. So says you. I disagree n/t

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. That's what they have court martials for

He deserted.

[DoNotRefill]

29. Not only that....

but he left in order to miss a shipment to a combat zone. If he gets caught, he's going to be in a world of hurt.

[Demonaut]

76. I agree that he volunteered, he has a duty to this corp.....er country

[0007]

83. I disagree also!!

[SemperEadem]

77. You've never experienced regimented life

once you sign on the dotted line, you go where you're told, do what you're told to do.

[Don Claybrook]

9. He most certainly did make the decision

He made the decision not to fight on the side of imperialism, greed, evil. And of course there are, or can be, consequences for his decision, but you're wrong in thinking that people can't make decisions. They can and they do.

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Yes, and there are jails for such people

Civil disobedience has consequences. Alas, no nation can have a military where everybody does what he or she wants.

[Don Claybrook]

13. And there were jails for such people as depicted in your avatar

Alas, no nation can have civil rights leaders that get all uppity and commit civil disobedience whenever he or she wants. The State must maintain order at all costs. Yeah, I see where you're coming from.

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. No you don't

Dr. King went to those jails. He didn't run away and hide in Canada.

This soldier made a commitment to the nation and the military that he would serve. He didn't make stipulations on that service. Nor can he now.

I have been against the stupid war in Iraq since long before it started, but that doesn't give him an excuse to refuse to do as ordered. Or, if he so chooses, then he must be man enough to face the consequences of his actions.

[Don Claybrook]

16. He made his stipulations

You may not like it, but it's clear that he did make stipulations on his service. As far as I can ascertain, he's not in Afghanistan or in Iraq, but rather, in Canada.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. And he won't ever return without jail

As it should be. He is a desserter. If he were a true CO, he would be here to stand trial.

[Dhalgren]

19. The nation recognized the "wrong" that was the Vietnam war

and an amnesty was granted to all those who opted to "vote with their feet". I can only hope that someday America will come to its senses and grant amnesty to all of those young men and women who put "right" before slavish obedience in this criminal war.

[Muddleoftheroad]

21. That was a draft army

Those in it had no choice. He made his decision to join up and go where he was ordered. He is a deserter and should be tried as such.

[Dhalgren]

24. True.

But if you sign a contract for services and then discover that the services contracted require criminal activity, your contract is voided. His contract with the US was voided upon entry to this criminal war. So an amnesty is still the right thing for the country to do - if we survive the criminal gang now in power.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. No it is not

Contract law doesn't apply directly to military service. You can refuse to act on what you consider an illegal order. Then you are tried in a court martial. You don't run away.

[SemperEadem]

78. nice try, but wrong

[toopers]

136. This is not a criminal war in the US courts.

Since he joined the US Army, then the US laws apply. If he wanted to work for the UN Army, take orders from the UN Armyy, then he should have applied with the UN. But, alas, he did not and he should be arrested if he ever sets foot in the US again.

[militarymanusaf]

147. Wrong

Any military member has the authority to disobey an unlawful order. Sending thousands of our brave men and women to invade Iraq for chimpy and his pals to get oil can easily be considered an unlawful order.

[Columbia]

151. That's a stretch

"Sending thousands of our brave men and women to invade Iraq for chimpy and his pals to get oil can easily be considered an unlawful order." Emphasis mine

An unlawful order could range from ordering a private to wash your POV to executing civilians, but deployment orders are certainly not so easily clear cut. Since no body of authority has designated the war as an illegal war, individual members of the military cannot be expected to make this judgment call - that is not their job. However, if this soldier truly felt that the deployment order was indeed illegal, he could have simply refused to deploy and faced a court-martial instead. However, his desertion to Canada (to me) proves that he did not have the strength of conviction to stay and face the consequences, but is merely a coward and deserted his unit when they needed him most and disgraced his own oath of enlistment and honor.

[leesa]

158. His pledge was to defend his country, was it not? There is nothing

defensive about what they are doing. No reason whatsoever to honor the treason being perpetrated by the CIC.

[Columbia]

159. See post 120

[DoNotRefill]

31. There's a big difference...

between somebody going to Canada before being involuntarily inducted, and somebody volunteering for the army and then deserting to avoid combat.

If you don't want to fight, that's fine. Good for you. But don't sign up for the Army...

[Dhalgren]

33. Volunteering for the Army is a contract.

Any contract that requires criminal conduct is an illegal contract - it is void upon signing. Once the US entered into the illegal Iraqi war, all of its contracts for service were voided. This young man did not run out on his contract - there was no longer a contract, at all. He ran to save his and his family's lives from the criminal thugs who are instigating the crime.

[DoNotRefill]

34. Saying it's an "illegal war"...

doesn't make it so in the eyes of the law.

Tell me, are they going to arrest everybody who deploys? If so, THAT would make it an illegal war....

[Dhalgren]

36. Oh, I get it.

This is a righteous war and completely legal - right, that's what you think? So we aren't in violation of the UN charter and international law? I am sure that most Republicans would agree with you and I know that most of the supporters of the BEFEE would agree with you 100%. I believe this war to be a crime against humanity, so in my opinion (just mine) the young man in question has done the right thing and the rest of the army should follow suit.

[DoNotRefill]

39. I didn't say it was righteous....

since no war is righteous. That doesn't make it an illegal war.

Soldiers have a duty to not obey illegal orders. Deployment orders are not illegal.

[Dhalgren]

40. Any order can be illegal, even deployment.

.

[DoNotRefill]

42. Cites, please.

thanks

[Dhalgren]

44. I'm not sure what "cites" means.

But if, for instance, an invasion is illegal, an order to deploy in that invasion would be illegal. If we are illegally occupying a country, an order to deploy in that country would be illegal. Look you obviously see this invasion and occupation of Iraq as just business as usual and on a par with WWII, I don't. Your government agrees with you, let that be enough.

[DoNotRefill]

47. "cites" means legal references.

caselaw, statutory law, constitutional interpretations offered by an entity which has authority over such matters, et cetera.


There were valid casus belli between the US and Iraq. They pre-dated Shrub's taking office, and had nothing to do with WMDs.


Saying it's an illegal war is all well and good. You have that right under the Constitution. You'll get a lot more support if you can actually back that statement up with facts, binding precedent, et cetera.

[Dhalgren]

49. As I said before,

your government agrees with you that this is a justified war, I don't. This invasion breaks the UN charter which the US signed. If you think that it is fully legal in international law for one country to invade another with no provocation, then, yeah, you and George are right.

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. He will be jailed under U.S. law

Which trumps UN non-law every day in the U.S.

And, though I have opposed Iraq from before the start, the U.S. had ample legal reason to invade because of continued Iraqi attacks on American aircraft.

[Dhalgren]

56. O.k. you have convinced me, I'll support your President. Jeees.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Unfortunately

He is my president. He sits in the White House. You and I have no choice in that matter. He is not my choice, just as he is not yours.

[Dhalgren]

66. O.k. You are right, there.

I think where we differ is in where we place the most importance as regards a citizen's rights and obligations. It is a hot-button issue with engaged citizens, as it should be. I see the obligations of a citizen to be primarily to the constitution and not to any of its "agents" if that citizen finds that these agents are corrupt or criminal. To me that trumps almost everything else. I understand that the "rule of law" and upholding the framework of our government is of great importance to you. I suppose I am a little more "Jeffersonian" in my approach and perhaps you are a bit more "Hamiltonian" in yours. I appologize if I became too strident -it comes more from frustration with events than with any one, peresonally. Dhal

[reprobate]

69. The facts are somewhat different.

The attacks by iraqi anti-aircraft on US planes were in defense of US bombing daily of iraq targets. There was no declared war on iraq or it's people. Yet we continually attacked their land and people. Why? For what reason was the constant air war against iraq carried out since the first gulf war?

Look into the history and you'll find that the same people that now run the white house were the movers and shakers since '91. To me, that's the definition of an illegal war. But then I'm a radical.

[DoNotRefill]

71. was it an illegal war from 1992-2000?

eom

[peacetalksforall]

114. Oh oh...what to you suggest for me = who doesn't believe anything this

administration says - who says that Iraq attacked our aircraft? If the U.S.claims that, I don't believe it - so where does that leave me in your logic? I don't even care if you are talking about attacks during the Clinton admin - if this military said that we were attacked, how do we know it wasn't a little CIA-military-cabal collaboration who made the claim - I don't believe anything they say. Their lies are no more believeable than the old USSR lies to their people.

Somehow, I believe Wilson. There must be a few others like him, but they're not orgainzed to tell us the truth and wouldn't live long enough to do it.

Dim view.

[Columbia]

116. Don't join the military

[DoNotRefill]

54. No provocation?

How about Saddam's sheltering of the person responsible for the killing of an American civilian, Leon Klinghoffer? Tariq Aziz (while still in office) admitted that the person responsible had been given refuge in Iraq until he started plotting against Saddam.

That, in and of itself, is a valid casus belli.

Bill Clinton committed acts of war against Iraq. He ordered their air space overflown, he ordered bombs to be dropped. Was that illegal? If so, why didn't you complain about that?

[Dhalgren]

61. Look if you support this war, I have nothing to say to you

that would do either of us any good. See ya...

[DoNotRefill]

63. Have you ever heard the song "Brave Sir Robin" by Monty Python?

It's pretty funny, you should listen to it.

[Dhalgren]

67. I have. And it is very funny.

.

[DoNotRefill]

68. At last...

we agree on SOMETHING! :)

[Dhalgren]

70. You know, we probably agree on a lot of things.

I will admit that this topic "pushes my buttons". I appologize if I got "personal". I think that this evil crap our country is going through, right now, is about as divisive and "lethal" to our democracy as anything this nation has so far endured - with, perhaps the exception of the Civil war. But even that is debateable.

[DoNotRefill]

72. No need to apologize....

and I don't think either of us really got "personal"...

[mbperrin]

90. Nuremberg.

The German high command believed they were justified in "following orders." They were wrong. They were convicted. Some hung. Some went to prison.

No country makes the final decision itself on whether any particular actions were right or no. Milosevic would not have gone to trial, either, if that had been the case.

This war has not been proven legal. No soldier is under obligation to follow an illegal order - again, see Nuremberg. This can be settled at the Hague.

[DoNotRefill]

137. Using your example....

of Nurenburg, I have to ask.....was every Wehrmacht soldier who invaded France, Poland, or any other country tried for taking part of an illegal war? Of course not. Their leadership was tried, because they put it all together. There WERE low-ranking members of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS tried, but their trials were all connected to individual atrocities that they committed PERSONALLY, NOT for waging an overall war of aggression.

Regarding the war not being proven to be legal, there's a presumption of innocence, not of guilt. It hasn't been proven illegal.

[RapidCreek]

119. Oh there were?

Indeed....hehehehe....and what were these valid casus belli? Do tell.

Just cause?
Legitimate authority?
Probability of success and proportionality?
Norms governing the conduct of war?

Explain the ius ad bellum and and the ius in bello in detail.

RC

[DoNotRefill]

138. It's pretty much beyond dispute that Iraq sheltered.....

the people responsible for the Achilles Lauro highjacking and the subsequent death of Leon Klinghoffer, an American citizen. Tariq Aziz admitted this during a press conference while he was still a representative of the Iraqi government. Casus belli provided, on a plate, without any of that "he said, she said" kind of thing going on.

[RapidCreek]

153. "Pretty much"

is NOT Casus Belli. Further if it were, Israel has met your test and Sharon's actions and state of Israel should be viewed no differently than those of Hussein and Iraq. Rachael Corrie and the 34 sailors killed on the USS Liberty were American and were murdered by Israeli terrorists. Further...the Arab Terrorists that destroyed the WTC lived in the US and trained in the US is this fact Casus Belli for the Countries of the foriegn nationals killed in the attack to wage war with the US?

Lastly the Hijacking of the Achille Lauro occured in 1985...that was 20 years ago...Reagan established full diplomatic relations with Iraq in 1985 (a year after Saddam gassed the Iranian soldiers). Donald Rumsfeld was shaking Husseins hand. Here is a little more on that period of time: http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html

I suppose then it could be said that the Kurds and Iran have Casus Belli to wage war with the US....you know...twenty years after the fact.

RC

[DoNotRefill]

163. a few points:

First, with the Achilles Lauro case, the incident happened in 1985. The sheltering of the responsible parties and the announcement by Tariq Aziz happened much later, well after Gulf War 1. As I'm sure you know, murder (and being an accessory) has no statute of limitations. Neither do crimes against humanity, et cetera, which is why they are still trying Nazis when they catch them.

Secondly, looking in my desk copy of Black's, Casus Belli is loosely defined. Do you have a better definition than the one offered by Black's to go by? Because aiding and abetting persons responsible for killing a country's citizens has been seen as casus belli at common law forever.

Regarding Israel, the Rachel Corrie situation is debatable. The USS Liberty situation isn't, and most definitely would qualify as a valid casus belli between the US and Israel, just as the events surrounding the incident with the USS Stark would. I wouldn't describe the USS Liberty situation as an act of terrorism since it was committed by military forces, wearing military uniforms, and operating properly marked military vehicles (both aircraft and surface vessels). Act of war, yes; terrorism, no. The fact that you do makes me wonder about your relative objectivity. As I'm sure you know, just because there's a justification to go to war doesn't mean that the aggrieved party MUST go to war.

Regarding the Sept. 11 people having lived and trained in the US, correct me if I'm wrong here, but they weren't trained in the US with the US KNOWING that they were going to attack us. It was all "before the fact". With Iraq and the Achilles Lauro situation, it was after the fact, and with the knowledge of their responsibility, that Iraq offered them shelter.

As to the Kurds and Iran having valid casus belli, that's certainly a possibility, but they'd be suicidal to try it.

Oh, and BTW, the "pretty much" comment was about it being beyond dispute, even using the standard of proof required for a criminal conviction in a US court. Remember, Aziz's press conference would qualify as a statement against interests which would be admissable even though it's heresay. There's a body, there's an admission, it'd be an airtight criminal case if it was being tried by that standard, which is the toughest going.

[leanings]

84. So for following orders

every soldier who "chose" to deploy to Iraq is following an illegal order and is therefore open to prosecution for war crimes?

[SemperEadem]

79. what his command changed into is non sequitur to the issue

he volunteered, and assented when asked if he understood exactly what he would be getting into. I doubt that anyone going into a MILITARY training enterprise is so deluded to think that they won't face combat---that is why they spend the time they do in basic training learning about their weapons because chances are, they are going to have to use it.

If he had such tender sensibilities when it came to military duty, he never should have signed up. He wasn't drafted--he made the choice to enter into this fully knowing what was expected of him from the get-go.

[Don Claybrook]

20. He might return without jail

Do you recall anything about Canada, Vietnam, and amnesty?

Aside from that, I agree with some of your premise, but not for the same hateful reasons. He knew what he was getting into when he deserted. He may well end up in jail because of this. If so, I'm sure that's a risk he has considered. But if he can get asylum in Canada, I say more power to him. Any way you slice it, he's done the right thing, and at least he's not overseas brutalizing a population in the name of the United States.

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. He has not done the right thing

He did not stand up for anything. He ran.

[Dhalgren]

27. Look you and he obviously have

differing moral codes. Your morality requires you to behave in a given way, his in another. He found himself trapped in a criminal interprize and opted to "run" rather than participate. You think he should have done otherwize - it's a "walk in shoes" situation. You have you preconceived ideas and you are going to stick to them - fine, but there is another way to view these envents

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. No, he made a commitment

I take commitments, especially to country, quite seriously. He didn't have to obey if he considered the order criminal. He had legal recourse in the military. He chose the coward's way out instead.

[DoNotRefill]

58. He had other options, too...

for example, if he had declared himself to be homosexual, they'd have separated him.

[Florida_Geek]

35. This Vet disagrees

He applied twice for CO status and was turned down. The third time he applied with his feet. Good for Him.

[Dhalgren]

38. Excellent point.

I'm a vet, too. Welcome to DU :hi:

[lumpy]

55. It is a damn shame that

people have to come up with desparate solutions in order to be a conscientious objector. I have to agree the guy should not have depended on the army to further his life's oportunities. Some young people take a while to learn the facts of life. Traditionaly the military has promised the moon, including bribery, to entice young people into the ranks. They soon discover it isn't a social program and they no longer have control over body and soul.

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. He could have refused what he considered an illegal order

That would have resulted in a court martial. He appears to not have the courage for that.

[Sterling]

148. So if he just did his time you would admire him, right?

You just think you need ta accept responsibility for your actions?

[Muddleoftheroad]

166. If he thinks it is illegal, he is morally obligated to challenge

That would be admirable.

[DoNotRefill]

30. "with no mental reservations"...

is part of the oath he swore.

He signed up for the bennies. He didn't like the cost, so he left. He'll have to pay the price.

[sweetheart]

26. continuity of treason

The Person who has committed treason against the constituion is bush. The soldiers are free to chose sides in this civil war, and chosing the side of justice, to not empower the coup-2000 is a wise move. When we take back the government from the confederates, this man should be given an increase in rank, back pay and a medal for service to the real american people.

It is your duty, service-people, to serve the american people and to defend the constitution.... and you are NOT doing that sworn duty by your service. come to terms with your own treason.

Muddle is muddled in the illusion that there is a constitutional republic still. He volunteered to serve the people and to defend the constitution, not to defend a criminal regime... good work young man... keep it up.

[Dhalgren]

28. Absolutely right! Well said!

.

[Zhade]

108. AMEN. Condemning this man is an act of self-important ignorance.

Illegal war, he decided not to risk fighting in it. Good for him.

[lumpy]

41. Should Martin Luther King have

been jailed at all? That is the question. Some people have a conscience about killing for the wrong reasons.

[Muddleoftheroad]

57. He broke the law

Though those laws were wrong. Depends on your point of view. In retrospect, I'm sure he would say the jail time actually helped the cause.

[Sandpiper]

80. WRONG

I have been against the stupid war in Iraq since long before it started, but that doesn't give him an excuse to refuse to do as ordered

The Nuremberg Trials established that soldiers not only have the right to disobey immoral orders, but have a duty to disobey them.

"I was just following orders" has not been a defense to crimes against humanity since 1945.

Sort of bowls over your argument that he signed the dotted line, so now he has to do whatever he's told, regardless of legal or moral implications.

[Muddleoftheroad]

93. He has a right to challenge orders

He doesn't have a right to desert.

That is the point I have been making the whole time. If he thinks the orders illegal, then he is cowardly for his unwillingness to defend that claim in court.

[drewb]

95. I don't do this often, but I agree with Muddle 100% on this one.

This is the main reason I didn't re-enlist in January 2002.

I finished my tour honorably and didn't look back.

(Which turns out to be one of the smartest things I have ever done...)

(The not re-enlisting, not the not looking back.)

[roguevalley]

129. I remember with Viet Nam that when it was obvious even to

dimwits that the war was a lie, entire companies refused to go out on duties. They said piss off and they even fragged their officers. I see little difference here. Even after a while a mule will stop pulling crap when the stink gets high enough. There is enough evidence if this were a just world to put the 'leadership' in jail for making illegal war. Is a soldier supposed to follow the orders of criminals waging unjust war? I believe Nuremburg settled that question sixty years ago.

Why else would they make an agreement with Canada not to give our kids a sanctuary before they began their illegal war?

[PassingFair]

154. Zieg Heil!

He vas only vollowing ORDERS!

This is ridiculous. Part of the problem with the human race is that there are people that excuse immoral/violent behavior out of a misguided sense of "honor", be it religious dogma or "honor codes". Piffle on you. Humanity needs to learn when to sit down and say "I WON'T DO IT".

Hitler did not kill millions of Jews, blacks and political dissidents on his own, you know. It took the blind obedience and idolatrous natures of the German masses.

[bestvoice]

155. Humanity needs to learn when to sit down and say "I WON'T DO IT".

As Cassius Clay did. And had those 30,000 men who went north sat down and flooded the jails with CO's and shown commitment to a cause instead of running away, perhaps a powerful example could be had today. Running away doesn't get anything done.

This soldier didn't have to get on the plane. He didn't have to train for the deployment. He had choices. His present course is a gutless one that helps no one. Maybe he just didn't want to wash dishes for 5 months again.

Yes I am a vet. Yes I have known CO's. Never understood why they were surprised at the training to kill people. Didn't understand the 7th Day Adventist who would'nt stand post or fight in the 1st GW on Saturdays either. But respected their beliefs and did my best to show them their civilian options.

When a person joins, it is with the written and oral agreement to follow orders that are within the bounds of the UCMJ. Since this soldier did KP his first tour, I fail to see his justifiable motive for going north

Flame On

[PassingFair]

160. We instigated and are involved in an immoral and illegal war

...no one should be compelled to become a soldier/pawn for Chevron/Unocal/Halliburton/Carlyle profits. If they didn't know it when they signed up, they know it for sure now. The deal is OFF. If our congress is going to roll over for the corporate rape of the world, the entire armed forces should head for the hills.
Bushco is making murderers of us.
Your order following, deal keeping mentality gives me the creeps.

[Muddleoftheroad]

168. Not illegal

While I have opposed this war, it is NOT illegal. Iraq attacked American aircraft on a regular basis since Gulf I. It broke the peace agreement that ended that war. Clearly, the U.S. had legal cause for war. It was * who came up with a new and different cause -- WMDs -- but the other cause still stands.

[Muddleoftheroad]

167. I would give you another salute

But not sure how that would be spelled.

Clearly, you don't get the point. There IS a way to go about this. There is a procedure for challenging illegal orders. He chose NOT to do so. Instead, he chose to run away like a coward.

If the orders were illegal, he is duty bound to challenge them.

[Cptn Kirk]

125. Maybe not...

What if he signed up before Bush came to power? For all he knew Gore would be CIC right now.

[Melinda]

10. One can not hide behind an avatar, and you do not represent Dr. King.

Substitute "Iraq" for "Vietnam"

"Now, it should be incandescently clear that no one who has any concern for the integrity and life of America today can ignore the present war. If America's soul becomes totally poisoned, part of the autopsy must read Vietnam. It can never be saved so long as it destroys the deepest hopes of men the world over. So it is that those of us who are yet determined that America will be are led down the path of protest and dissent, working for the health of our land."

Somehow this madness must cease. We must stop now. I speak as a child of God and brother to the suffering poor of Vietnam. I speak for those whose land is being laid waste, whose homes are being destroyed, whose culture is being subverted. I speak for the poor of America who are paying the double price of smashed hopes at home and death and corruption in Vietnam. I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world as it stands aghast at the path we have taken. I speak as an American to the leaders of my own nation. The great initiative in this war is ours. The initiative to stop it must be ours.

This is the message of the great Buddhist leaders of Vietnam. Recently one of them wrote these words:

"Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the heart of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism."

If we continue, there will be no doubt in my mind and in the mind of the world that we have no honorable intentions in Vietnam. It will become clear that our minimal expectation is to occupy it as an American colony and men will not refrain from thinking that our maximum hope is to goad China into a war so that we may bomb her nuclear installations. If we do not stop our war against the people of Vietnam immediately the world will be left with no other alternative than to see this as some horribly clumsy and deadly game we have decided to play.

The world now demands a maturity of America that we may not be able to achieve. It demands that we admit that we have been wrong from the beginning of our adventure in Vietnam, that we have been detrimental to the life of the Vietnamese people. The situation is one in which we must be ready to turn sharply from our present ways.

-----------------------

Meanwhile we in the churches and synagogues have a continuing task while we urge our government to disengage itself from a disgraceful commitment. We must continue to raise our voices if our nation persists in its perverse ways in Vietnam. We must be prepared to match actions with words by seeking out every creative means of protest possible.

As we counsel young men concerning military service we must clarify for them our nation's role in Vietnam and challenge them with the alternative of conscientious objection. I am pleased to say that this is the path now being chosen by more than seventy students at my own alma mater, Morehouse College, and I recommend it to all who find the American course in Vietnam a dishonorable and unjust one. Moreover I would encourage all ministers of draft age to give up their ministerial exemptions and seek status as conscientious objectors. These are the times for real choices and not false ones. We are at the moment when our lives must be placed on the line if our nation is to survive its own folly. Every man of humane convictions must decide on the protest that best suits his convictions, but we must all protest.

[Muddleoftheroad]

128. I don't claim to own Dr. King

But I am sick of people trying to tell me who my motherfucking avatar should or should not be.

If you don't like it, all the better. Hell, if I could make the photo larger to piss you off more so, I would do it. I do however have too much class to mock either your avatar or your sig line. I suggest you try it.

Now, go back and read my posts. I said he shouldn't run away. He is obliged, under military justice, to challenge any order he thinks illegal, but to do so in a lawful manner.

He was too cowardly to do so.

It's a volunteer army. He volunteered for the discipline, the rules and the justice.

(Note to mods, I have alerted twice on the post above. Despite being told by both Skinner, Lithos and other mods that attacks on avatars are forbidden, the posts doing so are still here. If you can't beat 'em with the rules, join 'em.)

[Sterling]

149. Thank you for posting this.

I too think the avitar is ironic.

[Muddleoftheroad]

165. Fortunately

No one cares what you think about my avatar.

[saskatoon]

91. "HE volunteered"

Yes but he did so on Bush's assertion that he was defending his country against an imminent attack from Iraq. Remember the "weapons of mass destruction---sheesh!

[Muddleoftheroad]

94. You don't just volunteer for one action in the military

You volunteer to serve and go where you are ordered. He didn't do that. Further, rather than challenge his order, he turned tail and ran.

[dflprincess]

118. When he volunteered,

he took an oath promising to "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States", not the corporations. That gives him a choice.

[Columbia]

120. Oath of Enlistment

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

http://www.armystudyguide.com/resources/reenlistment/oath.htm

[chasqui]

121. BUT - His OATH is to the CONSTITUTION

Not to the profitmongering of CheneyCo.
Our soldiers are not mercenaries, it is as simple as that.

[Columbia]

122. See post 120

[Don Claybrook]

8. It's so disconcerting

to see your avatar alongside the sorts of messages you tend to post.

[Zhade]

106. The invasion and occupation of Iraq was ILLEGAL.

Under the Geneva Convention, it is a soldier's duty to disobey unlawful orders.

Occupying Iraq is unlawful.

This soldier is doing the right thing. You are condemning a brave act of conscience.

[Muddleoftheroad]

127. If he challenges an order, he has a DUTY to do so

Not to run away like a coward.

[Slice]

112. I think that's disgusting

Have you served?

You probably don't know what it's like over there.

Just the fear alone is terrible. Worrying about your convoy getting attacked, worrying about maybe losing an arm or a leg, and not being able to play with your kids get back. Or even dying, and leaving your kids fatherless, or motherless, as the case may be.

I commend this soldier.

[anarchy1999]

117. Here read this: Call TO Conscience

Statement to the Troops


We are veterans of the United States armed forces. We stand with the majority of humanity, including millions in our own country, in opposition to the United States' all out war on Iraq. We span many wars and eras, have many political views and we all agree that this war is wrong. Many of us believed serving in the military was our duty, and our job was to defend this country. Our experiences in the military caused us to question much of what we were taught. Now we see our REAL duty is to encourage you as members of the U.S. armed forces to find out what you are being sent to fight and die for and what the consequences of your actions will be for humanity. We call upon you, the active duty and reservists, to follow your conscience and do the right thing.
In the last Gulf War, as troops, we were ordered to murder from a safe distance. We destroyed much of Iraq from the air, killing hundreds of thousands, including civilians. We remember the road to Basra -- the Highway of Death -- where we were ordered to kill fleeing Iraqis. We bulldozed trenches, burying people alive. The use of depleted uranium weapons left the battlefields radioactive. Massive use of pesticides, experimental drugs, burning chemical weapons depots and oil fires combined to create a toxic cocktail affecting both the Iraqi people and Gulf War veterans today. One in four Gulf War veterans is disabled.

During the Vietnam War we were ordered to destroy Vietnam from the air and on the ground. At My Lai we massacred over 500 women, children and old men. This was not an aberration, it's how we fought the war. We used Agent Orange on the enemy and then experienced first hand its effects. We know what Post Traumatic Stress Disorder looks, feels and tastes like because the ghosts of over two million men, women and children still haunt our dreams. More of us took our own lives after returning home than died in battle.

If you choose to participate in the invasion of Iraq you will be part of an occupying army. Do you know what it is like to look into the eyes of a people that hate you to your core? You should think about what your "mission" really is. You are being sent to invade and occupy a people who, like you and me, are only trying to live their lives and raise their kids. They pose no threat to the United States even though they have a brutal dictator as their leader. Who is the U.S. to tell the Iraqi people how to run their country when many in the U.S. don't even believe their own President was legally elected?

Saddam is being vilified for gassing his own people and trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. However, when Saddam committed his worst crimes the U.S. was supporting him. This support included providing the means to produce chemical and biological weapons. Contrast this with the horrendous results of the U.S. led economic sanctions. More than a million Iraqis, mainly children and infants, have died because of these sanctions. After having destroyed the entire infrastructure of their country including hospitals, electricity generators, and water treatment plants, the U.S. then, with the sanctions, stopped the import of goods, medicines, parts, and chemicals necessary to restore even the most basic necessities of life.

There is no honor in murder. This war is murder by another name. When, in an unjust war, an errant bomb dropped kills a mother and her child it is not "collateral damage," it is murder. When, in an unjust war, a child dies of dysentery because a bomb damaged a sewage treatment plant, it is not "destroying enemy infrastructure," it is murder. When, in an unjust war, a father dies of a heart attack because a bomb disrupted the phone lines so he could not call an ambulance, it is not "neutralizing command and control facilities," it is murder. When, in an unjust war, a thousand poor farmer conscripts die in a trench defending a town they have lived in their whole lives, it is not victory, it is murder.

There will be veterans leading protests against this war on Iraq and your participation in it. During the Vietnam War thousands in Vietnam and in the U.S. refused to follow orders. Many resisted and rebelled. Many became conscientious objectors and others went to prison rather than bear arms against the so-called enemy. During the last Gulf War many GIs resisted in various ways and for many different reasons. Many of us came out of these wars and joined with the anti-war movement.

If the people of the world are ever to be free, there must come a time when being a citizen of the world takes precedence over being the soldier of a nation. Now is that time. When orders come to ship out, your response will profoundly impact the lives of millions of people in the Middle East and here at home. Your response will help set the course of our future. You will have choices all along the way. Your commanders want you to obey. We urge you to think. We urge you to make your choices based on your conscience. If you choose to resist, we will support you and stand with you because we have come to understand that our REAL duty is to the people of the world and to our common future.

http://www.calltoconscience.net/


Veterans Call to Conscience
About the Call

This statement is the product of a group of veterans representing a variety of different political perspectives and experiences. We feel that as veterans of the U.S. military we need to speak directly to the troops who are being deployed to Iraq for Bush War II.

The "idea" for this Statement of Conscience was suggested by Anton Black of VVAWAI. He put out a broad call to veterans to help craft a statement that would represent a unified veterans statement and not be "owned" any one group.

7 Veterans responded to the call. These included veterans of many nationalities (including one from Scotland), members of VVAWAI, VFP, VSA, NION as well as activists with the GI Rights Hotline. Veterans were from "Nam, the '80's and from the Persian Gulf war. There were CO's and resisters from Vietnam as well as the Gulf in the writing group.

Many in the writing group were not able to become active organizers for this project. Much of this has been shouldered by VVAWAI in Seattle Washington. If you wish to help strengthen and broaden the direction of this initiative - consider joining in helping with this project.



Veterans Call to Conscience
These Soldiers Won't Participate

FREE FUNK NOW
It is not illegal to oppose an illegal war!


Statement for Press Release
Given Monday, February 10, 2003 at 11:00 am. By Michael Sudbury


Letter of Conscience
Sent March 18, 2003, by Jeremy W. Suggs


Army Ships GI Who Tried to File CO Claim to Iraq
Gabriel Johnson, received April 23, 2003


Veteran Signers
Signers as of January 08, 2004
Name, Branch, Years

http://www.calltoconscience.net/

[leesa]

157. Always such an apt name...did he volunteer to DEFEND our

country or fight for corporate thuggery? The CIC is operating illegaly and unethically. Their pledge is to uphold the constitution and Bush is destroying the constitution and betraying our country. They are right to walk out on the CIC.

[Cooley Hurd]

crazy dupe thing happened here...

dupe-a-dupe-a-doo...

(see below post)

[Cooley Hurd]

6. Sounds like there's quite a few following his lead...

According to the spokeswoman for the 82nd Airborne (from the same story):

<snip>
He'll be listed on a national database and could be arrested, but the army won't go looking for him, said Sgt. Pam Smith, a spokeswoman for the 82nd Airborne, based at Fort Bragg.

"We don't have time to go and track down people who go AWOL," she said. "We're fighting a war."
</snip>

I'd love to see the actual numbers of soldiers doing this...

[DoNotRefill]

32. AWOL isn't uncommon...

desertion (being AWOL for more than 30 days) is.

They will not track him down, but he'll go into the databases as being wanted. If he gets caught in America, he'll go to jail, and be tried by courts martial.

[NYC]

37. Some statistics.

Paraphrased:
...Chuck Fager, executive director of the Quaker House, a related organization that counsels soldiers who are seeking discharge from the military, ...has said in an e-mail that calls to the organization's hot line from service members and their families last year reached a record total of 6,187, up by 50 percent from the year before.

http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story.php?Template=military&Story=6185924

[Dhalgren]

15. I applaud this young man.

He has made an extremely courageous decision and acted upon his convictions. This is what all Americans should do - stand up for principles, stand up for beliefs. And don't give me that bull shit about "he had a contract", "he volunteered" - as a free moral agent he has not only the right, but the obligation to void any contract that would include him in criminal activities. This war is criminal, all contracts are voided. He cannot be asked to turn himself in and face trial, because of the crimonal nature of the present government - no fair trial would be possible from the very government that is perpetrating the crime which voids his contract. In a just society, this young man would be considered a hero, it is how I consider him.

[Mandate My Ass]

17. Well put

:thumbsup:

[DoNotRefill]

43. His CO status would be much more plausible...

if he'd been drafted. He wasn't, he volunteered for the military. What did he think, that the Military's job was to bake cupcakes????

[Dhalgren]

45. He probably didn't think it was to commit crimes.

.

[DoNotRefill]

48. Ummmmm.....

His "beef" is with killing people. That's what armies do, it's their reason to exist.

It's like saying " I want to work in a zoo" but then quitting because you don't want to shovel shit. It's part and parcel of the deal.

Standing in "that rectangular boxy thingie" and getting "three squares and a cot" isn't what the army's all about. Never has been, never will be. It's pretty simple, really. If you are unwilling to risk having to kill people, you DO NOT VOLUNTEER FOR THE MILITARY.

[Dhalgren]

53. Ummmmmm

the military kills people. When the government is wrong to send them to kill people, is the killing of those people not a crime? Are you saying that it doesn't matter where you are sent or who it is you are told to kill, it, by definition cannot be a crime if you happen to be in the military?

[DoNotRefill]

62. Nope, what I'm saying is...

that the military kills people. That's it's JOB. It's WHAT IT DOES. It's the inherent NATURE of the thing.

If you don't want to be called upon to kill people for your country, and following the chain of command even if you don't want to, that's fine. DON'T SIGN UP.


It's one thing if you don't want to go, but are conscripted. It's quite another if you say "TAKE ME!!!!", accept the rewards, and then back out when called upon to do your duty, the duty you undertook VOLUNTARILY.

[derby378]

23. This disturbs me

Hinzman told the Fayetteville Observer by phone that the socialist structure of the military appealed to him - he liked the subsidized housing and groceries and, at the end of his service, the money for college.

"It seemed like a good financial decision," he said, adding, "I had a romantic vision of what the army was."

These comments trouble me. I am glad that my fellow Quakers are helping him out in Canada, but surely Hinzman knew that once he joined the military, there was a chance that he may have to actually fight someone. It's almost like Private Benjamin all over again.

[Mari333]

25. Good for him. I tried to get my stepson to do it

and I wish I had been more forceful . Its hard to tell a 21 yr old kid how bad it is over there. He has no idea. God help me, I wish I could have forced him to go to Canada..I told him "better to be in jail then dead".
I hope all the kids who signed up (and they didnt sign up for this bloodbath to all you folks who whine "they signed up")...just leave the country asap or tell the goddamn military that you wont be a part of this.
better to be in Canada then be dead or wounded in a fraudulent war for greed.
In fact, Im shocked at the whiners who whine "he signed up "..no, they signed up for a weekend a month to gain college credits and a little money to help them in their careers in a world where there are NO fucking jobs.
And they are now finding out it was a LIE over there, and they are dying daily or coming back so maimed its beyond comprehension. People who dismiss this whole thing with "he signed uppppp" can kiss my ass. Im serious. Just walk in my shoes for one fucking day.
Walk in the shoes of this mother ...

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1091&dept_id=425744&newsid=10958951&PAG=461&rfi=9

[Carolina]

64. I hear you,

I agree with you and my heart goes out to you and your stepson. :hug:

[Jax]

74. Thank you for this post Mari333

I was just about to probably get banned from DU for life here in response to some of the crap being hurled on this thread...

It has affected a member of my extended family and he is only 24. I am sick. Have been sick since this oily bloodbath began.

Especially disgusting is the not so thinly veiled 'I was against this war...but we were right to go invade' pro war spew. The DUers who believed the obvious lies from the appointed madman in the Oval Office will never get my respect again, not that they would care anyway, and I could care less what so called 'Democrats' like that think of me. Live it like you and your stepson and my husband's cousin and her son are living it. And many, many, many more. Too many. And I completely agree, they DID NOT sign on to be corporate soldiers for Halliburton in this nightmare bloodbath.

Bet not a single one of these whiners would even be able to take one step in your shoes right now.

I just had to vent here.

Thanks again Mari333. I seek you out to read here daily now.

Jax

[Barkley]

75. You're absolutely right!

Your testimony is very powerful!

You're helping other families facing similar a dilemma.

People need to know what this war is doing to families and nobody can tell it like a mom!


-Bring the Troops Home NOW!

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

82. I was in Niagara Falls (Canada) last week

I'm Canadian

on business. We were at the ballet (that's what we call it) one night and got talking to the folks sitting at the table next to us.

some guys and girls were showing their friend a good time before he went to boot camp (from Rochester)...I got to talking to the kid and he understood what he was doing. He knows the war is full of shit as is bush but yes the army is the only choice for some of these kids...bad home existence (viscous parents) no education and prospects...plus 500 dead out of what 180,000...he was going to chance the odds...plus he really did feel for the guys who were making a sacrifice so why shouldn't he.

So it was dancers on me for a while. I just asked that he put in a good word for Canadians if the topic ever comes up (ie reminder when WWII started)

the guys at my table were like 'what, why the hell are you throwing money on his table?'...dude, he going to Iraq...think about it, can you actually comprehend what his next years are going to be like...'um no...shit that's fucked up'

it really is a different existence up here.

Bill

[diamond14]

46. bush* went AWOL too....this guy should get same punishment

that the pResident did....



but this snip from the article bodes badly for potential draftees, as bush* will DRAFT you starting in 2005....asscroft arranged to close off Canada for those escaping the draft in a set of agreements about a year ago....you can read it here....



"Hinzman's chances of receiving refugee status are slim: Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board said none of the 268 American applicants last year was accepted."

[redqueen]

65. He did the right thing

He did what he had to to avoid killing people in an unnecessary, illegal war -- and now, by going to Canada, he is doing what he has to do to keep his family together. This man has the right priorities.

I hope more soldiers who join thinking that they will fight just wars will do the same.

Smedley Butler warned us decades ago that the overwhelming majority of US wars are decidedly UNjust. War is a racket. If Hollywood and society would quit glamorizing war and violence, young people would not grow up with the romantic notions of war that this man obviously did.

I do quite enjoy the article's frank description of the benefits of a socialist system. Right on. :)


"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, deplorable patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
--ALBERT EINSTEIN

[EV1Ltimm]

73. if he was drafted, i'd understand.

I've never been in the military, but i'm pretty sure that if someone signs up, learning to kill is kinda what you're trained to do.

It shouldn't have come as a shock to him. If it wasn't in his personality to become a soldier, he shouldn't have joined up.

[Noon_Blue_Apples]

81. a couple points

a)he volunteered therefore he can unvolunteer himself (sounds silly but if a nations war is justified then there should be no problem with finding warm bodies)why would they still want him. more of a disturbance than a homoseual that is willing to serve. no logic.

b) I have some land in florida for sale - this guy needs to give his head a shake - a Buddhist socialist thinking the army would suit his personality and beliefs - wtf?

c) anybody ever needs a place feel free to pm for info.

B

[bluestateguy]

85. I support and admire this soldier's convictions

Still, he should be willing to accept the consequences for his actions. It's not truly civil disobedience if there is no acceptance of official consequences.

[leanings]

86. I don't really see a middle road on this one

An order, such as an order to deploy, is either legal or illegal. If it's illegal, a servicemember is bound by law and duty to disobey it. If it's legal, they're equally required to obey. So if this kid is in the right, every member of the US military who deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan is guilty of a war crime and is liable for prosecution. If they are not liable for prosecution, than this kid is. Nobody prosecuted individual soldiers in the Wehrmacht after WWII; it was assumed they were duty-bound to obey orders that involved carrying out an aggresive war. That protection didn't extend to the higher-ups who were tried for conspiracy to wage an aggressive war. It's a murky legal line as to how far down the responsibility for carrying out strategic policy decisions like this runs, but it certainly doesn't extend down to field grade officers, let alone enlisted men.

Of course, I don't see where this kid was ever given an order to deploy; he just left because the military didn't jibe with him. If he was mentally retarded or there was some other mitigating circumstance, things might be different. But this kid had reached his majority and is responsible for his actions. He's a deserter, guilty of breaking the law and not carrying out his duty to his country. If he'd felt his duty was to stand up against this war, he should have done so. He'd still be guilty of breaking the law, but he would have carried out his moral obligations to fulfill his duty as he saw fit. He may have even inspired others to do the same or at least drawn some attention to his cause. Instead he chose to run.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demdave]

88. I remember hearing the same charge during Vietnam.

It didn't stick then or now.

[leanings]

102. I can't say I agree with your conclusion-

at all-but at least that's an intellectually consistent point of view.

Welcome to DU, BTW.

[tom_paine]

89. We'll ALL be seeking asylum if the Busheviks aren't stopped.

[Malva Zebrina]

92. sigh==if it were me, or my son or daughter

I would encourage them to do the same.

There is no honor in supporting fascism and the merciless killing of innocent people because an AWOL, stupid and ignorant commander in chief wannabe orders it.

I would not make a very good robotic soldier and thankful that I never did join the military because it is not in my nature to blindly follow orders from idiots. When I was a young graduate nurse, there were many opportunities and much recruiting to join the military

Something in my personality bucks the idea that I am constrained to follow the orders of those I might not trust in the first place.

If my nation were attacked, I would fight w8ith vigor and defend to the end as my ancestors did since they landed here in 1605. But let's face it. No one can, in the most far reaches of their imagination, invade and conquor this land. It is not possible.

So our military must be mustered to defend, but not, imo, to invade for the sheer purpose of extending empire and conquor those who are vulnerable, and weak. This is indeed an abuse of power geared toward conquest, and not toward the betterment of the human race, even though an evil man like Bush would like us to believe that he killed ten thousand people to bring "peace"

But, to comply with insanity, as did the troops of the madman Hitler and others--no way. I would supprot any person who has this conscience.

I will open my house, five hours from the bortder. to any person of conscience who cannot stand the notion that they must kill innocent people in order to occupy another land, illegally and with no consideration for it's peoples.

No way.

Too bad, but I am just a person who would buck the government when it comes to my own conscience

My house is open--come here for refuge--I will feed you as you journey on your way to political asylum in Canada.

[Mozam]

96. Ready for the heat

I have over 20 years in the US military and been deployed numerous times. Did I want to deploy...NO but it was my duty and my job.

The soldier is AWOL and heading toward desertion. He volunteered raised his right hand and took an oath. Questions regarding being a CO are raised at recruitment. His story is full of holes and that is probably why his CO status was rejected. I have heard many excuses to avoid deployments and most don't hold water. He volunteered and is now subject to the UCMJ. Civilian justice does not apply.

This soldier is a coward and is running from his obligations. He just wants to avoid a deployment. The Army will get him eventually.

My son is also with the 82nd. He joined at 17 because he was not ready for college in 2000. I approved his enlistment papers and gave him his oath. He knew that he could be sent into combat and accepted it. Believe me his "romance" with jumping out of aircraft was cooled with long periods in the field training. He turned 19 fighting in Afghanistan and 20 fighting in Iraq where he is today. His training has probably saved his life. In October, his patrol was ambushed by an IED and small arms fire. His patrol took eight wounded. After the figherfight he provided first aid to his buddies and carried them to trucks to be evaced.

His mother and I hold our breath with every announcement of a soldier killed in Iraq. But we are very proud of our son, he is serving honorably. He has plans for college when his enlistment is up in 05.

There is so much ignorance out there regarding the military and a lot has been displayed in this forum.

[DrWeird]

97. Coward?

The cowardly thing to do would be to go to Iraq and kill somebody for no good reason because you were afraid of prison.

[Mozam]

98. Yes, Coward

He should have never joined. He could have saved himself a lot of heart ache.

[DrWeird]

105. So then let me ask you this.

How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake.

Or perhaps I should ask this:

When is "just follow orders" a good excuse to do anything?

[leanings]

103. No, the cowardly thing to do

is run away to Canada because you disagree with the war and are afraid of going to prison for your beliefs.

[Malva Zebrina]

99. what are his obligations?

that is my question. It is all well and good to have a military career, but when the obligations reqauire killing innocent people with mega bombs onthe word of an insane person like Bush, who went AWOL himself and who obviously is a rich little boy who did NOT get elected, and like to send people like you and yours to do his killing, his slaughters for him, I say forgert all about that "tradition"

You know, we only go through here once. We need to decide what it is exactly that is worth it . Is it really worth it to hold such military service so romantically close to your heart when it means that you are ordered to commit virtual murder on other humans beings who are innocent and upon who the CIC lies in order to have your invade? Is that really a life's purpose? Sorry there is more to the soul than that , in my opinion. I would be totally useless as a military person. I value my integrity and ability to make my own decisions because, we only go through here once and I want to go through here with a free conscience of my own.

Military used to defend this nation is fine. But, thinking clearly, NO one will think of, nor can, invading us and win. But military that is used by greedy men who covet the stuff of other countries and lie to invade and kill and have almost 550 of our young person killded is NOT romantic.

It is, as a matter of fact, barbaric

[Mozam]

100. Loads of Ignorance

Bottomline...he signed his name to enlistment papers. He demonstrated military adaptability in Boot, AIT, and airborne training. As I said civilian living goes out the window. Military law applies and he ran way to avoid service.

[Malva Zebrina]

107. oh sure

How noble. That reminds me of antoher person who was a policeman in LA and all hepped up and romantic about his career. HE hated protestors and said if one came near him he would take his sniper rifle aim it at them and dare them to stick their flowers in the barrel.

No my friend, there is nothing romantic about this. Nothing redeemable about the "tradition" when we go to a foreign country on lies, and kill children . there is nothing romantic about being a macho killer for the sake of preserving your masculine , romamntic image. There is nothing noble about it at all. Not in these times. In these times, the military is used to conquore weak places and kill their civilians whilst instilling in the minds of the young impressionable macho warriors the notion that they are "heroes" for killing defenseless civilians. They are not. Teach your children this.

We need military to defend our shores. Period.

We have troops in Iraq and they are ordered to kill. They do so without a thought. IN other circumstances it would be a murder and a crime--the people have not done a thing to them but they cannot think clearly.

This is wrong.

\\and that means the soldier gives up his soul for the greed and the power of a despicable CIC, and we have souless soldiers killing in our name the persons that another evil person commands them to. This is not acceptable.

And when he comes back, he has great difficulty finding the once very human,soul. IT may be gone forever.

[Mozam]

101. By the way

The US military killed thousands in Somalia, many in Yugo and Kosovo.
We also bombed Iraq almost daily since 1991.

[leanings]

104. Military service requires obedience.

It's not a democracy. Hesitation or questioning of command leads to disaster in combat. It's a truism that's been proven since the first organized bodies of men began to fight wars. Once you sign that piece of paper, you're required to either follow orders or go to jail. Period. If you were right about what you went to jail for, then maybe you'll be exonerated someday. Maybe not. There's nothing romantic about it. The military exists to kill people and to break things-that's it. It's a tool to be wielded by the government. It is not a thinking organism as a whole, and altho initiative and forward thinking is appreciated in individual members, when the time comes you shut up and salute. That's why service in the military is held in higher regard than working as a plumber or a stock-broker; you may very well be asked to die for reasons you don't understand or agree with and by signing that piece of paper you say that it's fine by you. And if some people don't make that commitment, a society is at the mercy of it's adversaries.

If the military as a whole or one of it's members feels it's time to rebel, that's fine. They must be prepared to deal with the consequences of that judgement call, up to and including jail and possible execution. There are no second chances.

[Malva Zebrina]

109. oh i am sure it lead to disaster in "combat'

the question is when is the "combat" justified? It is all romatic to talk about "combat"

\We have not had a real "combat" since WW 2. All the others were manufactured and forced "combats" and all the young bright eyed men, all eager and romantic about their warrior status, perhaps elevating them from their rather banal existence previously--believing the propaganda about their heroism in defending our, the great US, rich and powerful, which no other country can dare invade, nation, buy the whole schtick and will die for the romantic image they hold in their sould of themselves as "defenders of freedom"

When the "combat" is the result of fascist leaders who exploit our children and command them to kill the children of the "enemy" who is really not a threat to our shores in the most exaggerated vision, then let us take a good long look at ourselves and our romantic vision of ourselves and our young, impressionable men, as "warriors" fighting for a cause of an evil man.

[leanings]

113. I think you mean "war", not "combat"

Combat is what takes place during a war. And regardless of the justifications for the war, combat stays the same. It's trying to keep yourself and your buddies from being killed whilst trying to kill your opponent. It is completely devoid of romance.

Your characterizations of how soldiers feel is way off. I have three good friends in Iraq at the moment, two of whom are in specialties where they are very likely to see combat. They are far from starry eyed and have no illusions about what they're doing. They have different opinions on the war, and they're very well aware that there's no romance whatsoever in it. These guys are not Paul Baumer from All Quiet on the Western Front; their schoolteachers didn't shame them into joining up. They're professional soldiers who are well aware of the risks and possibilities that are inherent in war and the responsibilities they undertook when they signed up. "Romantic" is not the word. "Serious" and "professional" are more like it.

Your qualm is with the civil authorities who send these men to fight. We live in a democracy, or are supposed to anyhow, so go do something about the government that's implicating these policies that are putting the military to use. The military is functioning just as it's supposed to.

[Malva Zebrina]

146. combat is the testosterone of people who have givemn up their

ability to think and their souls.

There is abosolutely NOTHING brave in comabat that invades another country and kills children and the innocent at the rate of ten thousand.

There is NO excuse for thie "combat" and it is nothing but a shit romatinic vision offered to young men in the throes of hormonal influx that overtakes their sense of what it means to be a human being living on this earth, no matter what country we all live in.

I am really conflicted. I can understand a young, relatively uneducated man or woman, joining the military in order to "get" something, That something, imo, is an ego, testosterone inflicted sense of "manhood" that is shallow and barbaric, or is a move to get a better life through what the military will provide as far as support for a family, tyhe little children that are born and that cannot be supported by a regular job, so the military monetary support will , at the least, feed them.

It certainly, as we all know, in this instance and in the previous wars on others, killing them with impunity, does NOT justify the killing of innocents and children and unborn children.

That is barbarism. and our troops, are -participants in that and they signed up to be participants in that.

One could say that our young, who joined to get the benefits, are actually capitalizing on the deaths of their comrades or the deaths of the children, in order to get those benefits

It could be , to be fair, that they, being young and not aware of past atrocities , such as Vietnam, did not foresee their roles, which was to kill innocent civilians to the count of ten thousand/


Face it. the use of our military as it is today, and in the past wars after ww2, is an exercise in killing others who are deemed
less than" or brown skinned or beliveing in the wrong religion, in order to get benefits for themselves--like a college education or a reliable salary or satisfaction of the fanstasy of the one who is caught up in the testosterone belief that he or she is protection our "freedoms"

They are NOT. They have been skunked and have been bought and are now committed or else if they do not comply are arrested and inprisoned.

There is something very wrong here.

Do not grow up your children to be "warriors" in the future. It can only be an exercize in murder of innocents as George Bush has demonstrated.

He is the CIC and he did not even serve honorably in a time of war. Why should anyone encourage their young to become a pawn in the military, especially when the trend is toward empire andconquoring other weak countries to get what they have and to get what we covet?

Never would I allow a son or daughter of mine to enter the military on these precepts.

Caution your young children and teach them to think for themselves. in all circumstances--even on talk forums that they may like to post to.

Encourage your children to think for themselves and to not adore or kiss the ass of anyone at all, even thouse who may seem as though they are in the same camp

[Columbia]

162. Ahh, yet another anti-military tirade

"There is NO excuse for thie "combat" and it is nothing but a shit romatinic vision offered to young men in the throes of hormonal influx that overtakes their sense of what it means to be a human being living on this earth, no matter what country we all live in."

"I can understand a young, relatively uneducated man or woman, joining the military in order to "get" something, That something, imo, is an ego, testosterone inflicted sense of "manhood" that is shallow and barbaric"

You seem to know so much about those who serve in the military, their intentions, and experiences... yet you have no firsthand experience whatsover.

Sorry, if I don't take your tired, prejudiced, and uninformed anti-military view seriously.

[Malva Zebrina]

164. I am probably three plus times older than you and have seen

war and it's tragedy from an adult point of view far more than you have. I am against any pre-emptive, immoral war and to say anything else., such as "well now that we are there..." would be inconsistent. I know it is not popular to say anything bad about the troops and really I have not--I think they are being used as pawns by an evil man. I am trying to reach people who may be all enthused about joining the millitary, because it sounds so romantic to their young ears.

It is not necessary to have first hand experience in anything to have an opinion. You criticize the president--were you ever president?

[Columbia]

170. I can understand your frustrations

But don't take it out on the military. I assure you that your views on military serviceman and women are misplaced. There is no glory or romanticism in war, and combat veterans will be the first to tell you that. To think otherwise is to seriously misjudge and malign a great proportion of the population without merit.

[Malva Zebrina]

172. the military exists to defend the country

not to invade ad nauseum and ad infinitum other small countries that an insane leader tells them to. And now we have the added "pre-emptive policy to make things worse. Anyone joining now, knowing of this pre-emtive policy does NOT have my sympathy. Sorry, I know it is not popular here and I know there are people posting here who have sons or daughters serving , but this is my view, and I believe it a sane view. I also believe young people can be swayed easily , especially young males, by the macho romantic appeal of "serving your country" the "hero" fantasy and also the ego building it affords to a young person who has nothing else. I would not encourage my children to have anything to do with this romanticized version of the military. I would not allow my children to play GI Joe dolls nor would I teach them with video games the romanticizm of being a "marine"--that is my opinion . I know you have yours and I can understand that also.

I have no objection to military. It should exist to defend this nation, but that is not what has happened since WW2--we are using military as a powerful bludgeon upon other countries and in other conflicts which have nothing to do with the defense of this nation.

[Columbia]

173. We'll just have to agree to disagree then

I'm fairly isolationist with it comes to foreign policy myself, but I still think you have it wrong when it comes to military servicemembers, their intentions, and their attitudes. But I respect your opinion regardless. Have a nice day. :hi:

[Columbia]

115. Are you a combat vet?

"All the others were manufactured and forced "combats" and all the young bright eyed men, all eager and romantic about their warrior status, perhaps elevating them from their rather banal existence previously--believing the propaganda about their heroism in defending our, the great US, rich and powerful, which no other country can dare invade, nation, buy the whole schtick and will die for the romantic image they hold in their sould of themselves as "defenders of freedom"
"

If not, how do you know the mindset of them so well? When did you get back from Iraq?

[saigon68]

161. Only if you are from this planet

http://maps.jpl.nasa.gov/pix/jup0vss1.tif

[ohiosmith]

110. Amnesty for all war criminals. They were just following orders.

[Slice]

111. Good

I think all of them should do this, then maybe Bush would have to start a draft and then everyone would turn against him.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Columbia]

124. Queue Star Wars Imperial March

:eyes:

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

130. I'm going to have to echo what seems to be a very unpopular opinion here

and that is that he volunteered. If he objects to this invasion (which I certainly do!), then he stays here, objects, and suffers the consequences of objecting.

My husband objected to Desert Storm in 1990 (only privately). He suspected it was about oil. But he went, because he knew he volunteered to join the army and not just only if he didn't have to see action.

Fortunately he came back, only injured. He disagrees vehemently with this war, as do I, but we both feel that any soldier who feels this is an unjust immoral war (yep on both counts) should stand where they are, make their voices heard, and take their lumps. I think that might actually draw more attention to this than going to Canada.

[ohiosmith]

131. "Take their lumps"? Why would anyone subject themselves to

the judgment of those who are responsible for the illegal and immoral activities that is being protested? To do so is an admission of wrongdoing.

[Muddleoftheroad]

132. No it is not

It is requesting a trial or hearing on your complaint.

[ohiosmith]

134. Again my point. Why would anyone want to be judged by those

who are engaged in the criminal activity that is being objected to?

[Muddleoftheroad]

135. You seek to condemn the entire military

And that is beyond unfair. So, everyone in the military would give him an unfair trial?

[yellowcanine]

133. People change - He has joined the Quakers and is now a CO

Personnally, I wish he would have "gone through the system" and petitioned the military for discharge as a CO. It would not have been easy, but honorable discharges are granted to COs if the military determines that the petitioner is sincere. I know a guy who was ROTC and decided in his senior year that he was a CO. He has to pay back the government for his education but had no problem getting released from his service obligation. Not quite the same thing, I know, as he was never actually in the military.

[DoNotRefill]

139. This came up last night in a conversation....

I was having with an active-duty career officer and USMA graduate, who has served as a legal officer (in effect, a prosecutor for the military).

After informing him of the particulars of the case, he said it was potentially a death penalty offense if he is convicted.

[Mozam]

140. Death Penalty

Only for running to Canada and becoming a Deserter

[DoNotRefill]

141. the death penalty is a possibility....

because he deserted to miss shipment to a war zone. If he had deserted before he received notification, it would be much less serious.

[ohiosmith]

142. Hypothetical: You sign an employment agreement. After taking the job

you learn that you will be expected to engage in illegal, unethical, and immoral acts. What do you do?

[DoNotRefill]

143. Depends on who your employer is.

If you work for the mob, your choices are limited. Same deal if you work for the Government.

[Sterling]

150. The thing is.

If we would stand up for what is right instead of condeming people like this man, he would never have been in this situation to begin with.

I cannot pass judgement on him eccept to admir his ability to understand what he was being asked to do was wrong. That is more than I can say for a lot of Americans.

[Mozam]

144. He could have

used your position as a defense at his court martial. But if I was on the board he would get the Big Chicken Dinner (Bad Conduct Discharge)and induction into the Leavenworth fraternity. The death penalty would be out of the question.

[ohiosmith]

145. And that's why he doesn't put his fate in the hands of the organization

conducting the criminal activity.

[Sterling]

152. I don't blame him.

It does nobody any good for him to be in prison.

[leesa]

156. Can't wait for the first round of soldiers to use the Bush defense

He went AWOL during time of war, why can't I?

[JoFerret]

171. 250 Americans a year

<<An estimated 250 Americans every year seek refugee status in Canada, the vast majority making mental health claims, according to Jeffrey House, a Toronto criminal defence lawyer who represents Pte Hinzman. >>
That's from today's Guardian.