Cuba trying to head off mass exodus from Haiti

[Judi Lynn]

Posted on Thu, Feb. 19, 2004

Cuba trying to head off mass exodus from Haiti

BY NANCY SAN MARTIN

[e-mail]


With a potential migration crisis brewing amid continued political turmoil in Haiti, Cuba has issued an appeal for international assistance for the troubled country just 50 miles off its eastern tip.

''Cuba believes that the international community cannot abandon Haiti. The social situation is getting worse,'' Foreign Minister Felipe Pérez Roque said at a recent meeting of Caribbean officials. ``Collaborating with Haiti has become a duty for all of us, its neighbors.''

In the early 1990s, about 600 Haitians wound up in Cuba as thousands trying to escape the violence of a military coup in their homeland fled in rickety boats in an attempt to reach the United States.

Cuba set up an emergency refugee camp near the sparsely populated eastern tip of the island to accommodate the Haitians who had come ashore in the eastern provinces of Camagüey, Holguín, Guantánamo and Santiago.
(snip/...)

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/7987451.htm

[ret5hd]

1. people going TO Cuba?

That can't be...purposely leaving a free-market economy to go to a socialist hell?

Maybe all the propoganda about cuba is misleading.

[BayCityProgressive]

2. I would much rather live in Cuba

than Haiti.

[ret5hd]

3. my point exactly...

in fact, cuba probably seems pretty much like a utopia to a haitian.

[BayCityProgressive]

4. yeah I agree

I knew you were being sarcastic. I think all nations should be open to criticism..it isn't all black and white. As for Cuba..some pros are that they have nearly 100% literacy and free healthcare and housing for all its citizens which is more than can be said for anyone else in the Caribbean. They have made great strides agaisnt racism and more recently homophobia.They do not have a completely free government, but they have been making strides towards a more democratic society with the formation of restricted political parties and such. Under the constant threat of a coup by the USA it is not certain how democratic they could be and still sruvive as a nation. Some negatives are that they are very poor...few new vehicles or medical supplies because of a low currency and embargo. However they have had some success of late with a mixed economy, allowing the government to run programs and industry essential to its people, whileallowing private but regulated business as far as travel industry ect. they have created many new jobs in this way. Their use of trhe death penalty is also a negative ..although they use it far more sparingly than the USA. It would be far from a paradise for any American to live in, but it would likely be better than most places in the "third world".

[Osolomia]

5. Quality of life in Cuba ranks better than most countries in the Americas

even better than Mexico!

2003 Human Development Index
A composite index measuring average achievement in three basic dimensions of human development—a long and healthy life, knowledge and a decent standard of living.

HDI Rank Country

1 Norway
2 Iceland
3 Sweden
4 Australia
5 Netherlands
6 Belgium
7 United States
8 Canada
9 Japan
10 Switzerland
13 United Kingdom

27 Barbados
34 Argentina
40 Uruguay
42 Costa Rica
43 Chile
49 Bahamas
51 Saint Kitts and Nevis
52 Cuba
54 Trinidad and Tobago
55 Mexico
56 Antigua and Barbuda
59 Panama
64 Colombia
65 Brazil
67 Belize
68 Dominica
69 Venezuela
71 Saint Lucia
78 Jamaica
80 St. Vincent & Grenadines
82 Peru
84 Paraguay
93 Grenada
94 Dominican Republic
97 Ecuador
105 El Salvador
114 Bolivia
115 Honduras
119 Guatemala
121 Nicaragua
150 Haiti

http://www.undp.org/hdr2003/indicator/indic_10_1_1.html


Tuesday July 8, 2003
Norway Heads Quality of Life Index; Canada Miffed

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - Norway, Iceland, Sweden, Australia and the Netherlands ranked as the best countries in which to live in the 2003 U.N. Human Development report on Tuesday but Canadians were miffed.

The United States ranked seventh and Canada was eighth in the report that seeks to go beyond per capita income and include such factors as educational levels, health care and life expectancy in measuring a nation's well-being.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/030708/15/krnz.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. If that is true

Why all the complaints that the embargo is harming Cuba?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

9. Doesn't prove anything

People might say, for instance, they'd be around 30 or so if not for the embargo.

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. What I can never get straight

On one hand, some here claim Cuba to be a virtual workers' paradise with the health care on the planet, etc. On the other, it is crippled by the embargo. Which do you think?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

13. <dylan>The answer, my friend, is in your username </dylan>(nt)

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

10. In spite of the embargo. Anybody knows that.

You're not very good at this whole twisting arguments thingy are ya'?

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. Then the embargo can't really be harming it too much, can it?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

15. My uncle has cancer but he can still walk around.

I guess the whole thing is overrated anyway right? You trade the same republican tactic yesterday claiming that people who wanted to help stabilize Haiti wanted to invade it. Come on bro, you really seem above all that bullshit, at least I hope so.

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. Sending American troops into combat IS an invasion

And claiming Cuba is hard up when it appears that is not the case is misrepresentation at the very best.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

18. Bogus arguments as always.

The only one talking about combat is you. A real peacekeeping mission for a change would do some good and help change the image that our government only gives a shit when natural resources and money are at stake. Who exactly is going to attack them and with what? Again the only one claiming that Cuba is not "hard up" is you. It seems you're arguing with yourselve. Since you're the only one making those outrageous comments. It is obvious that the embargo keeps medicine and agricultural products from these people. Even exiles would agree with that. Is this the best you can do? They are not mutually exclusive. Yes they offer health care for citizens and free education. But with the embargo in place they can afford little else. These arguments of yours are not only cynical but childish. How many more people are going to continue to suffer because some bullies are pissed that Castro has outlived and outsmarted every last US president. It is personal with him and it is idiotic and petty, period. If Mao can sit down and cut deals with Nixon. Surely our government can bury the hatchet with Castro. These people have done nothing to deserve an enemy as powerful as the USA. I'm sure you love it but if the shoe were on the other foot I bet you wouldn't like it one bit. Shame on you for disgracing MLK. He would have never stood up for this bullshit. You love throwing words like terrorists and tyrants around. Well I think it's time we looked at ourselves in the mirror. This embargo is a dinosaur and so is the mentality that goes with it. You're always talking about being an African American this and that. Well what about the African Americans in Cuba that are suffering because they have no rich Miami relatives to send them money? Do you care about those? It's time to stop making excuses for stupid and misguided imperial policies that do nothing for anyone. Yours are republican arguments at best. You bring up claims that no one has made to shift the argument and make others look bad for having good intentions. It is a very common tactic my friend but it doesn't work. I mean really bro, don't let anything such as facts and history get in your way.

[Judi Lynn]

19. You definitely speak for some of us, SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN! Thanks.

:kick:

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Which specifically?

The rationalization about Cuba or the personal attacks?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

21. I might have gone too far with certain things I said about you personally.

I ain't even trying to shit on you or anything. I don't come here to fight w/ people from my side. But I stand by the premise of it all. The way you post certain things it seems you do it on purpose to agitate people. I know you know better than to say things that the embargo affects no one and then say every thing's alright over there because WE say they manage to survive. You keep tuning things posted here into some cynical or sarcastic comment when you know exactly what is being said. These are people like you and me that we're talking about. All over the world people suffer because of what it is done with our tax money whether Dem or or repug. It's one thing to be moderate and another to mock other people's misery. That's all. You know our history and what we're about. You seem like a smart guy. But I think you say certain things to get under people's skins. For example I would never say to you Israel is not affected by suicide bombers because they are so prosperous, have the fourth largest army in the world and have made so much progress. Because you would probably tell me that in spite of these attacks they have managed. Right? Same with the embargo and same with the Haitians whom we've fucked over time and time again, but there they are.

[9215]

22. The embargo is keeping Cuba from greater things still.

;)

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Cuba has no inherent right to trade with the U.S.

The embargo keeps them from nothing. If their future is dependent on trade with the U.S., then Castro should resign.

[Osolomia]

24. Suite yourself

You cannot say that you were not given the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to show that you’re not some blithering idiot.

So the Prime Minister of Canada should resign for being dependant on trade with the USA, then what?

"One cannot ignore the disastrous and persistent effects of the embargo...economically and socially, as well as with regard to civil and political rights.”

"The extreme tension between Cuba and the United States creates a climate that is unfavorable to the development of freedom of expression and assembly."

"U.S. laws and the financial support given to 'the building of democracy in Cuba' make political opponents on the island look like sympathizers with foreigners."

– Christine Chanet, hand picked by the USA to investigate human rights in Cuba, in her report to the UN, 16 February 2004
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=4367941

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

25. Plus don't forget every nation depends on its trade with the US.

We are after all the last remaining empire. Oh wait sorry super power, yeah that sounds better.

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. No, every nation does NOT depend on trade with the U.S.

As an economic power, we TRADE with pretty much every nation. I think many of the EU contries could survive just fine on their own for instance.

[Judi Lynn]

29. You seem to be unaware of the extraterritorial aspects of our embargo

and attendant legislation.

Please review the post concerning:

"Denial of Food and Medicine:
The Impact Of The U.S. Embargo
On The Health And Nutrition In Cuba"
-An Executive Summary-
American Association for World Health Report
Summary of Findings
March 1997


http://www.cubasolidarity.net/aawh.html

Your simple reading of the embargo doesn't come close to grasping the situation.

Please take time to read the links, and educate yourself on the issue, or do simple research, so we're all discussing the same subject.

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. I have read tons on Cuba and the embargo

We are one nation among many. Cuba gets supplies elsewhere and can continue to do so.

[Judi Lynn]

32. You need to read the article, so you, too, may grasp the central elements

Don't ask others to do your reading for you.

If you are a African-American, as you have informed us, you may find this information worth a good hard squint:

(snip)
This was the Bay of Pigs invasion. Many Americans like me had
followed closely the events that led up to victory of the Fidel
Castro-led Cuban peasants that resulted in the overthrow of the
government of the dictator, Fulgencio Batista. For politically
sensitive Black Americans, the struggle to oust Batista was the
Caribbean wing of the American Civil Rights movement. We followed
that struggle as though it were our own.

Cuba, prior to the conquest of Castro, was the mirror image of the
American South in its race relations. Cuba prior to Castro was a
typical southern state where the inhabitants spoke with a Spanish
accent. The leadership class in Cuba prior to Castro was what we'd
call "lilly white." It was basically a two-tiered society, in which
the upper and middle class was predominantly "white" people of
Spanish, other European or British-American origin, and bottom class
was predominantly black and mixed-races. The capitol of the
leadership was Havana. The core of the workership was the Oriente
Province, later dominated by a large American Company, United Fruit,
where Castro was born.

During the waning years of the Civil War in America, when the
handwriting was on the wall that the South would lose, substantial
numbers of white slave owners fled the country, along with their
slaves, and settled in Cuba, vowing to maintain the race/class
privileges they enjoyed in the South.

These refugees from the Confederacy were welcomed by and blended in
well with Spanish colonizers that had enjoyed their own period of
slavery and depended upon slaves and later their offspring to harvest
the sugar cane and provide the labor for its agriculture, service and
entertainment industries. Under Spanish rule, and thereafter under
American supported Batista rule, Cuba became the playground for
American politicians and gangsters. Its best properties were held by
multinational corporations. Black Cubans were rigidly discriminated
against, and prominent signs warned them that most public beaches and
other areas of public accommodation were off-limit to them. This is
the Cuba that official America looks back upon with such maudlin
nostalgia.
(snip/...)

http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/Caribbean/A_Black_View_of_Cuba

[Mika]

77. Muddle is aware of Helms-Burton & just repeats the rhetoric

Muddle seems to be proposing (again) that it is countries that manufacture goods, not corporations. :shrug:


Other DUers and I have posted many links on the extra territorial nature of the Helms-Burton law many times on many threads for Muddle to read. It seems as though Muddle is either, 1) not reading the posted links and repeating his presumptions, or, 2) reading the links and not understanding the law and repeating his presumptions, or, 3) reading the links, understands them, and repeats his accusations. (FYI, this is not a personal attack upon a fellow DUer, just an observation of what could be classified as "spamming" the Cuba threads with the same question and accusation over and over again, despite the repeated posting in answer to his misunderstanding of the H-B law.)




H-B is aimed at corporations, not countries. Almost every country in the world has normal diplomatic relations with Cuba except the USA, but the companies within those countries cannot buy/sell with Cuba and the USA at the same time (according to the US's Helms-Burton law). Corporations (capitalists) always pick the largest market. This is the extraterritorial nature of the US's H-B law.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

78. Amazing, isn't it?

:grr: :grr:

[Osolomia]

80. “pointless flaming” is against DU’s rules

except when approved by an admittedly biased site administrator as certain post counts go to show while “progressive Democrats” disappear.

In justifying why he locks LBN threads full of links to information while letting the "pointless flaming" to continue in others:

I will admit to a certain bias against threads which argue that Cuba is a bastion of freedom and democracy. - Skinner ADMIN Jan-11-04

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=10711#10723

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

51. Could?

So, why don't they? When the US sets out to cripple someone economically. guess what? They usually succeed. Why is this so hard to understand? Or is it that you refuse to see it because it makes you uncomfortable. If we all agree that our government and media have lied to us about many things over the years. Do you think they are telling the truth about Cuba and other people that we have dicked around with. It's time to take responsibility and stop living in a bubble of denial.

"No, every nation does NOT depend on trade with the U.S.". Do you even read this shit before you post? Name one. Japan and England very powerful economically on their own depend on trade with the US. Why on earth would they have embarked on this idiotic adventure in Iraq? Second whenever a country does not follow the will of one nation (The USA) they are automatically threatened with trade to comply. Do you deny this too? You seem to hav e ahard time understanding very simple concepts. This is supposed to be your country and you don't even seem to know it. That's truly sad.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. I am entirely comfortable

I do NOT wish my government to deal with dictators -- Castro is one. I wish this would be applied elsewhere. How about Mugabe next.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

56. It seems more like you're entirely comfortable

picking on third world nations. You never answered the question. What the fuck have these people done to us? Or you for that matter. Spare me the dictator crap. We are only against the so called dictators that Washington doesn't like. Learn to think for yourself man. WTF?


PS, newsflash: "your" government doesn't give a shit about your opinion. They will deal with as many dictators as they please as long as they and you of course can make a buck.

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. Again he is a dictator 90 miles from our shores

We should not support him under any circumstances. It sets a bad precedent.

I do think for myself. I KNOW Castro is a dictator.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

64. That's a bullshit

excuse to punish a people that have never messed with us. If you want to remain in the stone age and make excuses for our bullying be my guest. Throwing out empty rhetoric about "democracy" or whatever doesn't help your case one bit. Our country is doing this because it can, period. I'll say it again having MLK posted up there while agreeing with shitty US policy speaks volumes.

[Muddleoftheroad]

65. I urge us to EXPAND that policy

And stop dealing with dictators not just close by, but elsewhere as well. Sorry you are pro-dictator. I am not.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. When you refer to someone as "a blithering idiot"

It helps if you can spell the word "suit."

Again, Cuba has no particular rights to anything from America. If their state is reliant on trade with a nation that doesn't trade with them, that seems to be THEIR problem, not ours.

[yellowcanine]

31. Careful, Muddle - you might be accused of bigotry

against the spelling impaired. I was accused of bigotry for suggesting that people might have died during Fidel's 4 hr plus speech. So the bigotry threshold can be quite low with some on this board.

On edit: In my opinion, the embargo has long ago ceased to be a rational U.S. foreign policy, if it ever was.

[Osolomia]

36. Spewing US government Cold War propaganda stereotypes

despite the undeniable facts in front of your face is a form of ignorant bigotry whether you realize it or not and wouldn't even fly in freeperville these days:


Cuban President Fidel Castro (right) shook hands with Lostine’s Travis Jones (left) who was in the West Indies country on a trip to promote trade between Cuba and the state of Idaho.

Travis Jones of Lostine, an agriculture and transportation legislative assistant for U.S. Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, was in Cuba within the past week helping to establish a $10 million trade agreement between the island country and the state of Idaho. He shook hands with Cuban President Fidel Castro and met with Foreign Minister Felipe Perez and the President of the National Assembly Ricardo Alarcon during his Feb. 6-9 stay in the island nation.

... Jones said that the delegation shook hands with the Cuban president then sat down for a three and a half hour discussion primarily directed between the Cuban leaders, Sen. Craig and Rep. Otter. Craig’s wife, a nutritionist, also participated in the conversation. Though English was the common language, Castro and his trade chairman worked with translators.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=373444

But a progressive Democrat would have been bored to death eh? LOL!

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. What "undeniable facts?"

Facts about Castro's status as dictator or the people he has killed?

[Osolomia]

57. "Killed"? Got a link to backup your fantasy?

If so you should send it to the human rights oranizations because evidently even the USA's own State Department cannot find a shred of evidence to back up your fantasy:

Cuba
Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2002
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
March 31, 2003

Section 1 Respect for the Integrity of the Person, Including Freedom From:

a. Arbitrary and Unlawful Deprivation of Life

There were no reports of politically motivated killings.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2002/18327.htm

[Judi Lynn]

58. No reports of politically motivated killings?

It's not that they would be against these actions if only they occurred in Colombia, etc., etc. as they did in Guatemala, Pinochet's Chile, etc.



Amazing, isn't it, how broad that umbrella is, called "human rights violations," when right-wing interests are at stake?

Yep, I've NEVER heard of post-Batista Cuba killing political dissidents, myself. NOT ONCE.

[Muddleoftheroad]

74. Tell that to Anita

A girl I used to be friends with. Castro killed her grandparents.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

76. Grandparents?

I imagine that this was long time ago. During the revolution maybe? If it was recent when there wasn't a war raging in Cuba that's another matter. How many people's grandparents have we killed? Oh, but let's not bring up old shit, right? It's very hypocritical to live in a nation that gets into conflict with others every couple of years and have the nerve to criticize what others do. Killing seems to be OK with you as long as it's us doing it. I may not approve of certain actions that took place during the revolution and even after. But I guess you would agree war is war, right? That's because I don't like killing, period. Even if it is "commies". Remember Vietnam and all the others? I guess not. This is also funny coming from a guy that's always sticking up for Ariel Sharon. Did you know that an Israeli court found him responsible for the Sahbra and Shatila massacres? How long was he locked up for? Puhleez.

[Judi Lynn]

44. Interesting to see Republican Senator Larry Craig took his assistant,

Travis Jones with him, as well as other staff, etc. to bring his entourage to 29 peeps in all going to Havana!

Jones needs to get up to speed and see there are far more states than the three he mentioned doing agricultural business with Cuba. He'll find out quickly, I'm sure.

One of my own state's senators has been there, too, along with my own area Representative. The Republican senator took a lot of people with him, too, according to what his assistant told me when I called their office. They were looking into Cuba several years ago.

So much has been going on for so long. It's a real shame more people don't know about it. It's MORE shameful that the only thing they "know" is what crap the right-wing propaganda mills have cranked out, from Miami and the State Departments of right-wing Presidents, like Reagan and the two Bushes, not to mention the unlovely Richard Nixon.

With any luck at all, the country will keep on this path, and pull off the normalization of relations with Cuba DESPITE the nasty, even "nefarious" scheming and sabotage of the right-wing extremists in our midsts.

[Osolomia]

59. How long has this been going on and why don't Dems know about it?

Castro Gets Capitol Hill Assurance
by Anita Snow, Associated Press

HAVANA, Feb 12, 2002 (AP)--Carole King serenaded Fidel Castro with "You've Got a Friend" at a weekend dinner, and U.S. representatives from California shared wines from Napa and Sonoma - part of the latest effort to change U.S. policy toward Cuba.

Cuba has been under a U.S. trade embargo since shortly after Castro defeated the CIA-backed invasion at the Bay of Pigs in 1961, and the Bush administration has insisted that U.S.-Cuba relations will not improve until Cuba embraces democracy and human rights.

"That might be the executive branch's view, but that is not the legislative branch's view, and we make policy," said Rep. Diane Watson, a Democrat from Los Angeles. "More and more lawmakers are coming here for themselves, seeing for themselves, developing good
will."

Since 1999, eight U.S. senators and 18 members of the House of Representatives have visited Cuba coinciding with partly successful efforts on Capitol Hill to ease or eliminate U.S. restrictions on trade with and travel to the communist country.

... They said their dinner with Castro at the Palace of the Revolution stretched from 9 p.m. Sunday until about 4:30 a.m. Monday. During the meal, King also performed a new song, "Love Makes the World."

More...
http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/Justice/_You've_Got_a_Friend:__Carole_King_to_Fidel

[Judi Lynn]

60. Rats, the link's down already. I found this reference to her visit.

(snip) Carole Spends 60th Birthday in Cuba
Associated Press's Anita Snow reported on 2/11/02 that Carole King was part of a Congressional delegation that visited Cuba over the 2/9 weekend (King's 60th birthday) in an attempt to build bridges between the two countries.

"My songs were a message I wanted to bring here," said King, who celebrated her 60th birthday in Havana on Saturday. "I came here to learn because my life, my work, is all about communication. We should be setting an example of good will."

Delegation members said they brought bottles of California cabernet sauvignon and merlot to Castro's dinner. Earlier Sunday evening, the California delegation shared a bottle with 17 noted Cuban dissidents at an Old Havana hotel.

"We ought to be having a better tone about building bridges rather than building walls," Rep. Sam Farr (news) said Monday.

The group also included representatives of California's rice and wine industries and King, the singer/songwriter.

They said their dinner with Castro at the Palace of the Revolution stretched from 9 p.m. Sunday until about 4:30 a.m. Monday. During the meal, King also performed a new song, "Love Makes the World."
(snip)

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/caroleking/cknews.htm

All our Congresscritters who ask to see him end up talking for 6 hours, at least, it seems. Interesting.

[Osolomia]

61. A photo from that dinner for the "Castro apologists" gallery

[Judi Lynn]

63. Cool one!

I never knew that Congresscritter was one of the crowd who has gone to Cuba. Very interesting.

He's a Democrat, too. Thanks for the look.

Uh, oh. I just realized Thompson is probably hoping to see California wines to Cuba. I don't know what Robert Mondavi wine is but I'll betcha California's wine sellers are interested now. Stands to reason.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. And American businesspeople, don't THEY have rights?

They want to sell things to Cuba, and Cuba tours to Americans. What happened to Free Enterprise?

And Americans who are not businesspeople. They want to use their own hard-earned money to go wherever they please. Is that not an inherent right either? I remember a country who forbid their citizens to travel to certain other countries... gee, its name escapes me now. They used a funny alphabet... can you help me?

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. We also have rules

And the government has decided to have no trade with that particular dictator. (THAT is how our system works.) Heck, I wish we did stuff like that MORE OFTEN, not less.

[Osolomia]

40. What do you mean by the "government"

Do you mean Congress or do you mean Dictator Bush?

Evidently you haven't a clue "how our system works".

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. Alas, I know how our system works

It takes Congress and the president or Congress overriding a veto by the president. Right now, neither have happened.

And, no matter how much of asshole * is, he ain't no dictator. If you think so, you demean the term beyond belief.

[Osolomia]

49. Defying the will of the MAJORITY is the trait of a dictator

and that's what Bush is doing as the undeniable facts go to show:

Senate Vote to End Travel Ban October 23, 2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/senate-votes.htm

House Vote to End Travel Ban September 10, 2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/vote-counts-flake.htm

Editorials on U.S.-Cuba Policy 2001-2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/editorials.htm

Poll of Cuban-Americans v. non-Cuban-Americans (in Dade County) on various policies:
http://www.fiu.edu/orgs/ipor/cuba2000/3samples.htm

A recent Miami Herald poll on Cuba:
http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/archive/cubanpoll.pdf

Various polls concerning ending the embargo and establishing diplomatic ties: http://www.pollingreport.com/cuba.htm

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. Nope

He could easily have his decisions overriden by Congress -- if they had the votes. They do not.

[Osolomia]

35. Only a blithering idiot would fail to recognize the will of the MAJORITY

of Americans on Cuba policy:

Senate Vote to End Travel Ban October 23, 2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/senate-votes.htm

House Vote to End Travel Ban September 10, 2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/vote-counts-flake.htm

Editorials on U.S.-Cuba Policy 2001-2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/editorials.htm

Poll of Cuban-Americans v. non-Cuban-Americans (in Dade County) on various policies:
http://www.fiu.edu/orgs/ipor/cuba2000/3samples.htm

A recent Miami Herald poll on Cuba:
http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/archive/cubanpoll.pdf

Various polls concerning ending the embargo and establishing diplomatic ties: http://www.pollingreport.com/cuba.htm

Evidently many a "Democratic" undergrounder's brand of freedom and democracy leaves a great deal to be desired in the real world.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. The will of the majority

As we ALL know after 2000, is not always the law of the land.

When it is the will of the government, then the rules will change. In the meantime, the cigar-chomping dictator will have to wait.

[Osolomia]

39. Just the way you like it eh?

To hell with the will of Congress and the American people, all hail Dictator Bush!

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. Huh?

The will of Congress only trumps the White House when they have the ability to override a veto. They don't, so they don't have much will at all.

And again, * ain't no dictator.

[Judi Lynn]

45. No post. Meant post to go to Osolomia. n/t

[Osolomia]

46. Evidently the major travesty of democracy doesn't bother you one bit

Both the House and Senate voted to lift the travel ban, in a major travesty of democracy the language was dropped in committee.

A MAJORITY is a MAJORITY is a MAJORITY regardless of how Bush votes.

Meanwhile this REPUBLICAN Senator begs to differ with you, go figure!:

Castro Signs Baseballs, Talks U.S. Ties
February 9, 2004

HAVANA -- President Fidel Castro signed baseballs, handed out cigars and flower bouquets and discussed increased ties with the United States in a meeting Monday with two Republican legislators who want to lift a ban on U.S. travel to Cuba.

Sen. Larry Craig and U.S. Rep. Butch Otter, both of Idaho, "are pushing very hard to lift the travel restrictions," said Craig spokesman Mike Tracy, who attended the encounter with Castro at the Palace of the Revolution. The 22 other members of the trade and cultural delegation were also present, Tracy said.

... Craig told reporters Saturday he thought the travel ban would be lifted by next year.

More...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=355027

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. Sounds like you need government lessons

And figure out how Washington works. Then you wouldn't be so disappointed.

And, for the record, since when do I care what a Republican senator thinks. Why do you?

[Judi Lynn]

47. I remember reading just last week Republican Senator Larry Craig

told Fidel Castro thata by 2005, Congress will have the veto-proof majority to override any veto the pResident could wave at them.

Cool.

On edit:

Whoops! I got here one minute too late.

It's is truly interesting to see Larry Craig hot on the trail of new Cuba relations, after all.

This is the second generation of Republican Congressfolk studying the question.

No doubt you're aware of the first, in the 1990's, the National Bipartisan Commission on Cuba.

Here's a list of the need for this commission they presented:

(snip)
Need:
Reason 1. - There has not been a comprehensive review or measurement of the effectiveness of US Cuba policy in achieving its stated goals in over 38 years since President Eisenhower canceled the sugar quota, levying the first economic sanction on Cuba on July 6, 1960. Later President Eisenhower imposed a partial embargo on October 19, 1960, President Kennedy imposed a total embargo on February 7, 1962 and in the l990's there was a furthering tightening of the embargo through passage of the Cuban Democracy Act in 1992 and the Helms-Burton Act in 1996.

Reason 2. - Since the passage of these last two bills by Congress there have been significant changes in the world situation including the withdrawal of the Soviet Union form Cuba in 1991 and the visits to Cuba of Pope John Paul II and Prime Minister Chretien of Canada to Cuba in 1998.

Reason 3. - During the past 24 months there have been many authoritative individuals, organizations and delegations from the United States that have traveled to Cuba to study and analyze the condition of the Cuban government and the Cuban people. These entities have reported their findings, conclusions and recommendations with the intent to improve the application of US-Cuba policy to make it more effective in achieving its stated goals. Some of these entities include current and former Members of Congress, representatives from the American Association of World Health and the American Public Health Association, religious leaders and delegations from Christian and Jewish faiths, U.S. business representatives, former US military leaders and many respected authorities.

Reason 4. - In May 1998 the US Defense Intelligence Agency in conjunction with the Central Intelligence Agency, the Department of State Bureau of Intelligence and Research, the National Security Agency and the United States Southern Command Joint Intelligence Center issued a report stating that Cuba poses no significant military threat to the United States or surrounding countries. Senior defense officials also increasingly favor engaging their military counterparts in Cuba to insure peace and reduce existing tensions.

Reason 5. - The findings, conclusions and recommendations of these authoritative individuals, organizations, and delegations have often included proposals to modify change or eliminate specific elements or tools of our US - Cuba policy. However the Defense, Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency have not been universally accepted.

Goal:
To resolve the differing opinions by conducting a logical and objective analysis of the facts and presenting unbiased and objective conclusions and recommendations regarding US - Cuba policy.

Proponents:
Members of the 105th Congress.

Supporters:
Former Secretaries of State, Defense, and Treasury, Attorneys General, Ambassadors, Members of Congress, military leaders, and distinguished experts m the areas of international relations, religion, health, human rights, the judicial system, business and education.
(snip/...)

http://www.uscubacommission.org/comstruc.html

Oh, yeah. This subject is NOT going away.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

52. So. It's the cigars that bother you.

Rest assured he stopped smoking them a while back. How many people have our presidents and the CIA killed? Living in Disney Land must be wonderful. Especially this time of year. According to you if the majority will is not the law of the land. WHAT KIND OF DEMOCRACY IS THIS? You do believe we live in a democracy right?

[9215]

67. Whaaaa. "The embargo keeps them from nothing"????

muddle on through if you must. :eyes:

If embargos don't "keep Cuba from something" then why is Bush so insistent on them? Answer me that one.

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. Much like the 1930s, we have a right to trade with who we wish

If Cuba wishes products, it can acquire them elsewhere. As citizens of the United States, Cuban trade is not our responsibility.

[9215]

72. Whew! You contradict yourself from one sentence to next.

Here you establish your trade policy by telling Cuba to get their products elsewhere.

Then follow with saying trade relations/policy (to trade or not) are not the US citizens responsibility, a direct contradiction to your first sentence:
"As citizens of the United States, Cuban trade is not our responsibility".



Now why do you oppose trade relations with Cuba?

[Muddleoftheroad]

73. I oppose trade relations with dictators

Contrary to your opinion, I am not establishing trade policy. I lack the authority to do so.

Cuba can trade with any nation that wishes to trade with it. Alas, the U.S. is not one such nation.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[9215]

79. Again you are wrong. There

are many in the US who want to trade with Cuba.

The people opposed to trade with Cuba are specious in their moral outrage. The US has and does trade with non-democratic countries like China. Even going so far as selling technology (Microsoft) to China that is specifically used to identify dissenters. The embargo against Cuba, a country under siege and justified in imposing quasi-martial law restrictions, is really inspired by the fact that Castro screwed up the Cuban Mafia (read: close friends of the BFEE)drug and gambling operations. Cuba was a primary transshipment point for drugs coming from Europe before Castro overthrew Batista . The Cuban Mafai in Florida have been pissing and fuming ever since.

If you are interested read "The Politics of Heroin: CIA complicity in the International Drug Trade" by Alfred McCoy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. Not wrong at all

There may be people or companies that wish to trade with Cuba. It is not the U.S. policy to do so, so clearly we don't wish to do it.

I have lots of moral outrage. Cuba is NOT the only nation I wish to see us limit or eliminate dealings with. If you bothered to read my posts, you would see that.

[Osolomia]

82. Still in a state of denial despite the mountain of evidence in your face

How very "Democratic" of you, NOT!

Senate Vote to End Travel Ban October 23, 2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/senate-votes.htm

House Vote to End Travel Ban September 10, 2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/vote-counts-flake.htm

Editorials on U.S.-Cuba Policy 2001-2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/editorials.htm

Poll of Cuban-Americans v. non-Cuban-Americans (in Dade County) on various policies:
http://www.fiu.edu/orgs/ipor/cuba2000/3samples.htm

A recent Miami Herald poll on Cuba:
http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/archive/cubanpoll.pdf

Various polls concerning ending the embargo and establishing diplomatic ties: http://www.pollingreport.com/cuba.htm

[Muddleoftheroad]

83. What do you claim I deny?

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[9215]

86. You are going to ignore the inconvenient facts I presented?

Don't you think Castro should get some credit for busting those drug peddling Cuban Mafia sleaze? Doesn't that make him a pretty cool guy in that regard?

Let's hear it muddled, Let's hear you simply disappear that!

[Muddleoftheroad]

87. Let's see

I dare say Castro would shut down ANY opposition force -- good or evil. So, no particular credit there.

[Mika]

88. Why focus on Castro?

Cuba has all of the branches of government that every democracy has.

Focusing on Castro is what the anti Cuba factions in America want you to do. That way one can justify ignoring the will of 12 million Cuban people (who fully support their system of government).

Castro doesn't run everything in Cuba. He's an old man. Cuba's most famous revolutionary war hero. The elected Cuban parliament has the real power now. The current president of the Cuban parliament is Ricardo Alarcon de Silva.


Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

[Judi Lynn]

28. You could enlighten the American Association for World Health

Maybe you should contact that group, and give them the benefit of your opinion.

Here's their humble report on the embargo's imact on the health of Cuban citizens:

After a year-long investigation, the American Association for World Health has determined that the U.S. embargo of Cuba has dramatically harmed the health and nutrition of large numbers of ordinary Cuban citizens. As documented by the attached report, it is our expert medical opinion that the U.S. embargo has caused a significant rise in suffering-and even deaths-in Cuba. For several decades the U.S. embargo has imposed significant financial burdens on the Cuban health care system. But since 1992 the number of unmet medical needs patients going without essential drugs or doctors performing medical procedures without adequate equipment-has sharply accelerated. This trend is directly linked to the fact that in 1992 the U.S. trade embargo-one of the most stringent embargoes of its kind, prohibiting the sale of food and sharply restricting the sale of medicines and medical equipment-was further tightened by the 1992 Cuban Democracy Act.

A humanitarian catastrophe has been averted only because the Cuban government has maintained a high level of budgetary support for a health care system designed to deliver primary and preventive health care to all of its citizens. Cuba still has an infant mortality rate half that of the city of Washington, D.C.. Even so, the U.S. embargo of food and the de facto embargo on medical supplies has wreaked havoc with the island's model primary health care system. The crisis has been compounded by the country's generally weak economic resources and by the loss of trade with the Soviet bloc.

Recently four factors have dangerously exacerbated the human effects of this 37-year-old trade embargo. All four factors stem from little-understood provisions of the U.S. Congress' 1992 Cuban Democracy Act (CDA):

A Ban on Subsidiary Trade: Beginning in 1992, the Cuban Democracy Act imposed a ban on subsidiary trade with Cuba. This ban has severely constrained Cuba's ability to import medicines and medical supplies from third country sources. Moreover, recent corporate buyouts and mergers between major U.S. and European pharmaceutical companies have further reduced the number of companies permitted to do business with Cuba.
Licensing Under the Cuban Democracy Act: The U.S. Treasury and Commerce Departments are allowed in principle to license individual sales of medicines and medical supplies, ostensibly for humanitarian reasons to mitigate the embargo's impact on health care delivery. In practice, according to U.S. corporate executives, the licensing provisions are so arduous as to have had the opposite effect. As implemented, the licensing provisions actively discourage any medical commerce. The number of such licenses granted-or even applied for since 1992-is minuscule. Numerous licenses for medical equipment and medicines have been denied on the grounds that these exports "would be detrimental to U.S. foreign policy interests."
Shipping Since 1992:The embargo has prohibited ships from loading or unloading cargo in U.S. ports for 180 days after delivering cargo to Cuba. This provision has strongly discouraged shippers from delivering medical equipment to Cuba. Consequently shipping costs have risen dramatically and further constricted the flow of food, medicines, medical supplies and even gasoline for ambulances. From 1993 to 1996, Cuban companies spent an additional $8.7 million on shipping medical imports from Asia, Europe and South America rather than from the neighboring United States.
Humanitarian Aid: Charity is an inadequate alternative to free trade in medicines, medical supplies and food. Donations from U.S. non-governmental organizations and international agencies do not begin to compensate for the hardships inflicted by the embargo on the Cuban public health system. In any case, delays in licensing and other restrictions have severely discouraged charitable contributions from the U.S.
Taken together, these four factors have placed severe strains on the Cuban health system. The declining availability of food stuffs, medicines and such basic medical supplies as replacement parts for thirty-year-old X-ray machines is taking a tragic human toll. The embargo has closed so many windows that in some instances Cuban physicians have found it impossible to obtain life-saving medicines from any source, under any circumstances. Patients have died. In general, a relatively sophisticated and comprehensive public health system is being systematically stripped of essential resources. High-technology hospital wards devoted to cardiology and nephrology are particularly under siege. But so too are such basic aspects of the health system as water quality and food security. Specifically, the AAWH's team of nine medical experts identified the following health problems affected by the embargo:

Malnutrition: The outright ban on the sale of American foodstuffs has contributed to serious nutritional deficits, particularly among pregnant women, leading to an increase in low birth-weight babies. In addition, food shortages were linked to a devastating outbreak of neuropathy numbering in the tens of thousands. By one estimate, daily caloric intake dropped 33 percent between 1989 and 1993.
Water Quality: The embargo is severely restricting Cuba's access to water treatment chemicals and spare-parts for the island's water supply system. This has led to serious cutbacks in supplies of safe drinking water, which in turn has become a factor in the rising incidence of morbidity and mortality rates from water-borne diseases.
Medicines & Equipment: Of the 1,297 medications available in Cuba in 1991, physicians now have access to only 889 of these same medicines - and many of these are available only intermittently. Because most major new drugs are developed by U.S. pharmaceuticals, Cuban physicians have access to less than 50 percent of the new medicines available on the world market. Due to the direct or indirect effects of the embargo, the most routine medical supplies are in short supply or entirely absent from some Cuban clinics.
Medical Information: Though information materials have been exempt from the U.S. trade embargo since 1 988, the AAWH study concludes that in practice very little such information goes into Cuba or comes out of the island due to travel restrictions, currency regulations and shipping difficulties. Scientists and citizens of both countries suffer as a result. Paradoxically, the embargo harms some U.S. citizens by denying them access to the latest advances in Cuban medical research, including such products as Meningitis B vaccine, cheaply produced interferon and streptokinase, and an AIDS vaccine currently under-going clinical trials with human volunteers.
Finally, the AAWH wishes to emphasize the stringent nature of the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba. Few other embargoes in recent history - including those targeting Iran, Libya, South Africa, Southern Rhodesia, Chile or Iraq - have included an outright ban on the sale of food. Few other embargoes have so restricted medical commerce as to deny the availability of life-saving medicines to ordinary citizens. Such an embargo appears to violate the most basic international charters and conventions governing human rights, including the United Nations charter, the charter of the Organization of American States, and the articles of the Geneva Convention governing the treatment of civilians during wartime.

American Association for World Health
1825 K Street, NW, Suite 1208
Washington, DC 20006
Tel. [phone] / FAX [phone]
Email: [e-mail]

http://www.cubasolidarity.net/aawh.html

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

8. Sh!t, we're behind

52 Cuba
54 Trinidad and Tobago
55 Mexico
56 Antigua and Barbuda
59 Panama
64 Colombia
65 Brazil

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. Haitians might also move to Southeast D.C.

And pretty much any other bad place they could find not in open civil war.

[BayCityProgressive]

14. I never said Cuba was a worker's paradise

I said not to look at any country as completely black and white. I said while it would be no paradise to the average American it WOULD be better for a Haitian or most any other person in south/central america.

[Vogon_Glory]

16. Refugee Movements Quite Understandable

It's quite understandable why Haitian refugees might consider fleeing TO Cuba. They want to avoid the endemic lawlessness and violence of the current crisis.

If I was a Castro apologist, I might think twice about comparing Cuban and Haitian income levels. Before the Castro takeover, many impoverished Haitians used to cross over to cut cane in the Cuban sugar cane fields. I have difficulty believing that this migration stopped solely because Papa Doc and Fidel Castro chose to be on opposite sides during the Cold War.

[Judi Lynn]

33. For anyone who appreciates the photos of Alberto Korda

Here's a look at his most famous:



Click the thumbnails:

http://www.blythe.org/korda/index.html

[saigon68]

48. CHIMPANZEE McSHRUB needsCuba to house his Concentration Camp

At Guantanamo Bay and keep it away from the prying eyes of the U.S. Public and international WAR CRIMES investigators

[Fargin Ice Hole]

50. how's it feel Cuba??????

You know what they say...What goes around comes around.

[9215]

68. Let me guess.

You are a chickenhawk?

[Judi Lynn]

70. Familiar pattern, throwing hundreds of millions into destabilization

(snip) The administration of US President Ronald Reagan in the early 1980s decided that more than terrorist operations were needed to impose regime change in Cuba. Terrorism hadn't worked, nor had the Bay of Pigs invasion, nor had Cuba's diplomatic isolation, nor had the economic embargo. Now Cuba would be included in a new world-wide program to finance and develop non-governmental and voluntary organisations, what was to become known as “civil society”, within the context of US global neoliberal policies.

Coups

The CIA and the Agency for International Development (AID) would have key roles in this program as well as a new organisation christened in 1983 — the National Endowment for Democracy (NED).

Actually, the new program was not really new. Since its founding in 1947, the CIA had been deeply involved in secretly funding and manipulating foreign non-governmental voluntary organisations.
These vast operations circled the globe and targeted political parties, trade unions and business associations, youth and student organisations, women's groups, civic organisations, religious communities, professional, intellectual and cultural societies, and the public information media. The network functioned at local, national, regional and global levels.

Over the years, the CIA exerted phenomenal influence behind the scenes in country after country, using these powerful elements of civil society to penetrate, divide, weaken and destroy organisations on the left, and indeed to impose regime change by toppling governments.
(snip/...)

http://www.countercurrents.org/us-agee040803.htm

EVERYONE who has read U.S. history in this hemisphere is completely aware of this sinister routine by now. We all know it's wrong.

Anyone interested can look up USAID and NED to see how wildly they spend taxpayers' money, covertly sneaking it into non right-wing countries.

[Osolomia]

71. Familiar pattern of policy based on lies and bullshit Dems still cling to

Hence:

Wesley Clark: "I will not take steps that reward Fidel Castro.”

Howard Dean: "… Castro must not be rewarded …”

Sen. John Edwards: "Full sanctions should not be lifted until Castro and his brutal regime are gone.”

Sen. John Kerry: "I am not prepared to lay down conditions at this time for lifting the embargo, because I believe that we need a major review of U.S. policy toward Cuba.”

Rep. Dennis Kucinich: "I strongly favor ending the embargo on Cuba. Our policy toward Cuba has created misery for the Cuban people and has harmed our own national interests. My administration will work to normalize relations with Cuba.”

Candidates on the issues: Cuba
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/01/29/p...

Despite:

Senate Vote to End Travel Ban October 23, 2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/senate-votes.htm

House Vote to End Travel Ban September 10, 2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/vote-counts-flake.htm

Editorials on U.S.-Cuba Policy 2001-2003
http://www.lawg.org/countries/Cuba/editorials.htm

Poll of Cuban-Americans v. non-Cuban-Americans (in Dade County) on various policies:
http://www.fiu.edu/orgs/ipor/cuba2000/3samples.htm

A recent Miami Herald poll on Cuba:
http://www.miami.com/multimedia/miami/news/archive/cubanpoll.pdf

Various polls concerning ending the embargo and establishing diplomatic ties: http://www.pollingreport.com/cuba.htm

[Moderator]

89. Locking

Too much drama, folks. Too many flames, not enough actual discussion.