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Supporters: Book should stay on shelves (MORE Creationism)

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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:24 PM
Original message
Supporters: Book should stay on shelves (MORE Creationism)
Supporters: Book should stay on shelves


Photo by IR Martin J. Kidston - Roxanne
Cleasby, front center, listens quietly
to those who spoke out in support of the
childrens' book Horse' at a public
hearing Friday night.


By MARTIN J. KIDSTON - IR Staff Writer - 02/29/04

"It took about 55 million years for the present family of horses, asses and zebras to evolve from their earliest horse-like ancestor," reads page eight of the children's book, "Horse" by Juliet Clutton-Brock.

While that statement seems innocuous enough, it was the subject of a public hearing Friday night at the Front Street Learning Center, where nearly 100 people turned out to support and criticize the book that is part of the Eyewitness Books series that one parent wants removed from a school library because she says it promotes evolution.

Roxanne Cleasby, a parent of an 8-year-old student attending Smith Elementary School in Helena, initiated Friday's hearing by filing a Request for Reconsideration of Educational Materials to the Helena School District.

Cleasby's request asks the district to remove the book from the library, or at least pages eight and nine, because she says it neglects to address creationism as an alternative theory to evolution.

"There remain too many questions with evolutionary theory to present it as a fact," Cleasby said. "Children and adults need the freedom to question, ponder and seek this very fundamental question of how they came to be."

More at the Helena Independant-Record
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Flagg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nazis. these people are nazis
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. "There remain too many questions"
I'll bet she doesn't know one of them. :eyes:
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Ya, she wants to instead
replace science with the 3000 year old mythology of a minor tribe in Western Asia.... I'd be interested in knowing what those questions were too.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. they will have their hands full, then
cuz the dk books accept the fact of evolution. they put out really eye catching books for kids on a huge number of subjects. they will be an easy target for these idiots. they are very readily identifiable. hopefully, this will help them put their foot down. (they are also not cheap.)
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Crachet2004 Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. You know, I don't think evoluton theory should be taken...
from the curriculum, but it is a theory. And more work needs to be done before it is represented as 'fact'. Just as Creationism is not Science, Evolution shouldn't be anyone's Religion!

Creationism is sloughed off by evolutionists because it comes from the Book of Genesis, a Biblical account of creation. The account in Genesis, as far as we know, came from Sumeria via Abraham...along with the story of the Flood, etc...

Now, as far as I know, Abraham was the first Jew-the Patriarch. In other words, these are not Jewish or Christian accounts, they are extremely old Sumerian accounts. Abraham was born in Ur, a Sumerian city. And even though most programming (and I use that term in the indoctrinal sense) on television would lead you to believe Egypt was the fount of all knowledge and civilization in antiquity-it was not. Sumeria was. As far as we now know.

You know, Iraq?

Anyone interested in questions of 'Beginnings', should read Zechariah Sitchen's, "The Twelfth Planet". It is truly fascinating, although some of his conclusions may have been a little too quickly drawn.

To me, the whole debate is open to question and cannot be resolved without further information.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Evolution is not intended to be a religion
Creatism is the basis for religion and should remain in the church until it is proven scientifically to be a fact. When that happens it will have the validity to be part of the curriculum.

The teaching of religious beliefs has no place in the school system. That is the function of the parents and the churches. If the schools take over that function then they will do a one for all curriculum and teach one religion.
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snowFLAKE Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Further information that might be of benefit
Would be to learn what "theory" means when used in a scientific context.

(Hint: it doesn't mean "Half-assed Guess")

I peruse these "Intelligent Design" and/or "Creationist" threads from time to time and the definition of "theory" is pointed out time and again - it is amazing how very little learning seems to take place however. Apparently, it is much easier for 50+% of the population (perhaps that's a bit lower on DU) to live in ignorance and keep on believing nonsense.
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YearOfTheLLama Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. In order to become a theory
a hypothesis needs to be consistently proven by solid scientific evidence. There really isn't any evidence against evolution, but the idea hasn't existed long enough to become a "law".

Additionally, I guess the lady who wanted that book banned would oppose anything that contradicts her personal ideas, but if they wanted to put the Bible in their, it would be a different story. Some people are just close-minded hypocrites. You can't reason with them.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. a little semantic differences...
Theories don't get proven. It's actually impossible to prove anything. Hypothesis are tested in an attempt to falsify them. When an hypothesis has withstood extensive testing that has failed to falsify it, it becomes a theory.

Theories do not become laws unless they have mathematical formulae supporting them, so it's not common to find laws in the biological sciences.

And yes, I agree, her own personal agenda is causing a ruckus and she should just, well, get a life.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Amen DinoBoy
Theories represent our current understanding of natural phenomena.

They are not conjecture.

Evolution is indeed a theory (and a robust one), and Creationism is indeed a myth.

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snowFLAKE Donating Member (247 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Perhaps to clear up the continuing confusion
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 01:41 PM by snowFLAKE
These explanations from the National Academy of Science will help:

from http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/evolution98/evol5.html

Is evolution a fact or a theory?

The theory of evolution explains how life on earth has changed. In scientific terms, "theory" does not mean "guess" or "hunch" as it does in everyday usage. Scientific theories are explanations of natural phenomena built up logically from testable observations and hypotheses. Biological evolution is the best scientific explanation we have for the enormous range of observations about the living world.

Scientists most often use the word "fact" to describe an observation. But scientists can also use fact to mean something that has been tested or observed so many times that there is no longer a compelling reason to keep testing or looking for examples. The occurrence of evolution in this sense is a fact. Scientists no longer question whether descent with modification occurred because the evidence supporting the idea is so strong.


Why isn't evolution called a law?

Laws are generalizations that describe phenomena, whereas theories explain phenomena. For example, the laws of thermodynamics describe what will happen under certain circumstances; thermodynamics theories explain why these events occur.

Laws, like facts and theories, can change with better data. But theories do not develop into laws with the accumulation of evidence. Rather, theories are the goal of science.

Back to my commentary: The bottom line is that in science there is nothing higher or more certain than a "theory."

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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Thank you for that
I can't say I really could have explained any of that myself, and this is a basic weapon one needs when confronting religious fundies and fools.

Dirk
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Welcome to DU, snowFLAKE!
Good post.
From your name, do you like snow?
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mike1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Do you believe in gravity? It, too, is a 'theory.' Yet it is fact
as well. There is some variation on the various models of evolution,
as in how, exactly it works, but no reputable scientist doubts that evolution is a fact.
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Ediacara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Theory has a different meaning in science
in the vernacular, it's meaning is "idea," but in science it means an hypothesis that has withstood testing to demonstrate that it is false. Evolution has not been falsified, despite numerous tests, and has in fact, been observed in the lab and in the field. There is no reason to claim that it's anything but the entire framework of modern biology.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why can't evolution and creation just get along?
n/t
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placton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. and of course they can
if you leave out the idea of 24-hour days (a concept not mentioned in the Bible), the Biblical story of creation tracks quite nicely with the theory (actually, law) of evolution. Just more evidence God exists, is my take.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. That's my view too
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burrowowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. Teillard de Chardin
Got them getting along fabulously.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. Park Service book says "Noah's flood" created the Grand Canyon
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YearOfTheLLama Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I get it
The idea is that the Bible doesn't allow enough time for the good old Colorado River to dig out the Canyon. So they grasp at straws and come up with some BS story that incorporates the Scripture. Unfortunately, studies show that, even if the Flood did happen, it only covered parts of Mesopotamia. Oh, well.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Welcome to DU, Llama
:hi:

It's like being nibbled to death by gnats, isn't it?? Ya gotta give them credit for their thoroughness, and tenacity :(
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DBoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
18. More than just science at stake here
I'm convinced the opposition to evolution isn't just because evolution conflicts with genesis, but that there are deeper issues here.

Fundamentalist interpretation of genesis teaches that the world was created once and that change is impossible. This goes with an immutable set of laws humans are expected to obey, and discredits any notion that society may be changed for the better. Social change or criticism of current arrangement is blasphemy.

Evolutionary biology teaches that change is constant, and that change is good. The ability of organizms to change is what allows them to adapt and survive. This suggests societal change is not only good but essential for our survival. Once this is accepted, then any part of our current social and political arrangements is subject to criticism.

Same as the heliocentric universe wasn't just about astronomy, as much as about the role of the human story in the universe.
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yankeeinlouisiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
19. Do other religions have a problem with
the theory of evolution? Every religion, at least the ones I have come in contact with, has their own explanation as to how the earth and everything else was created. I don't think I have every heard of other religions beating up evolution so much.

Any thoughts?

:shrug:
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Horses and Zebras took millions of years to evolve into their
present day form. Asses, as we all know, can be developed in minutes. Were the Dawn Horse still extant in it's original form, cowboys would only be about 6-8 inches tall.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. To paraphrase Joseph Campbell,

To paraphrase Joseph Campbell, all religions--all mythological systems--represent the spiritual questions, the attempt to explain the 'great unknowable' that we all have. They attempt to give us the spiritual answers that we are seeking.

Again according to Campbell, the problem western religions get into is in trying to make the spiritual concrete. Other cultures realize that the myths speak to the inner being, while western culture attempts to force mythology onto the real world.
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kodi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
28.  the truths of religion are not the truths of science
those who confuse the two are grasping for a sense of purpose.

and campbell was aware that one could grasp a sense of purpose in religion, but warned, as alan watts once said "don't mistake the menu for the meal."

that lady is chewing on the menu.
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FizzFuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
27. We need to stand up for what WE believe!!
How's about we initiate hearings concerning our local schools, protesting their refusal to teach another THEORY: The Sky is a Goddess named Nut, and the Earth is a God named Geb, or the Great Cackler, who daily lays the egg from which the Sun or The Great Scarab Beetle, hatches, but which along with the stars is also daily birthed by Nut.

Personally, I am aghast that the schools teach evolution, that Christian churches overrun the land, spreading their bible creation theories, yet both refuse to give any thought to the Egyptian THEORY. They were only the first civilization, people! Come on, I think they knew what they were talking about.

We need to hold protests, petition the White House and do some book burning of our own, starting with that book that teaches a 7-day creation, god-bringing forth-woman-from-man's-body THEORY. My god, they're teaching that all over the place with nary a Nut or Great Cackler in sight!!!
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