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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:18 PM
Original message
US troops 'made Aristide leave'
HAITIAN leader Jean Bertrand Aristide was taken away from his home by US soldiers, it was claimed today.

A man who said he was a caretaker for the now exiled president told France's RTL radio station the troops forced Aristide out. "The American army came to take him away at two in the morning," the man said.

"The Americans forced him out with weapons. "It was American soldiers. They came with a helicopter and they took the security guards. "(Aristide) was not happy. He did not want to be taken away. He did not want to leave. He was not able to fight against the Americans."

The RTL journalist who carried out the interview described the man as a "frightened old man, crouched in a corner" who said he was the "caretaker of the residence".

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8833298%255E1702,00.html

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eablair3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. The U.S. overthrows another democratic government
courtesy of George W. Bush and the Repugs.

how many does this now make?
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Big_AJ Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. I heard this
That Aristides was a Roman Catholic priest.  He is now married
with children and has substantial wealth?  He entered office
with high hopes and leaves compromised.

Both sides are reported to be composed of thugs, very little
rule of law anywhere.  I suspect there is nobody who can take
over and run an uncorrupted government.  The only viable group
to have in power (NOTE: not office) is one that can simply run
a regime that will provide the basic needs of the Haitian
people -- food, clothing, basic utilities and suppress the
gangs.  There is little hope for better. 

AJ    
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #11
52. Aristide was a priest, but the Pope stripped him of his office
because of his "socialist" ideas. You know how open-minded the
Pope is when it comes to the left-wing. Not. So, having been
kicked out of the priesthood, who can blame him for deciding to
marry and have a family?

I don't know that he's acquired any personal wealth, I think he
really has tried to do his best for Haiti, against incredible odds.
Like the opposition of the U.S. He bears no resemblance to the
Duvaliers, those thugs so beloved of successive US regimes.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. KPFA streaming link here from KPFA.org LISTEN
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. They musta found oil in Haiti, huh?....n/t
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. Slave labor!
Global corporatist offshoring colony.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Did Aristide leave at all?
I'm pretty sure right now that his "resignation" was fake, but I have no idea of his whereabouts.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
3. another proud day for America
Democracy? What's that?
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SodoffBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Can Cuba be far behind?
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MidwestMomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. More likely, can Venezuela be far behind...
Haiti will make a great staging area for the next coup...
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
4. Why am I not surprised
And why have I not seen/heard anything Real in the press, outside of the Pacifica Network??
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eablair3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. some recent background for any that are interested
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/25/1613200
The US lawyer representing the government of Haiti charged today that the US government is directly involved in a military coup attempt against the country's democratically elected President, Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Ira Kurzban, the Miami-based attorney who has served as General Counsel to the Haitian government since 1991, said that the paramilitaries fighting to overthrow Aristide are being backed by Washington.

lots more info here -

http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=5043
Haiti - Insurrection in the Making - Feb 25, 2004

http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=4977
Media vs. Reality in Haiti - Feb 13, 2004

US Congresswoman Maxine Waters issued a press release Feb. 11th, on the heels of her recent visit to Haiti, that called on the Bush administration to join her in condemning the so-called opposition and, specifically, Andre Apaid Jr., who is a Duvalier supporter that, along with his Group of 184, is attempting to instigate a bloodbath in Haiti and then blame the government for the resulting disaster in the belief that the U.S. will aid the so-called protestors against President Aristide. <5>

She also took aim at the World Bank and IMF and their continuing embargo , which amounts to hundreds of millions of desperately needed funds. Rep. Waters outlined the following positive measures that Aristide has initiated:

Under his leadership, the Haitian government has made major investments in agriculture, public transportation and infrastructureThe government doubled the minimum wage from 36 to 70 gourdes per day, despite strong opposition from the business communityPresident Aristide has also made health care and education national priorities. More schools were built in Haiti between 1994 and 2000 than between 1804 and 1994. The government expanded school lunch and school bus programs and provides a 70% subsidy for schoolbooks and uniforms

Rep. Waters made clear assertions on Aristides behalf that are otherwise absent from Bush administration commentary and corporate media deceptions regarding Haiti. Waters completed her statement with an important appeal, which called on the corporate media to discontinue the practice of repeating rumours and innuendos, whereby they function as international megaphones for the opposition. They lie shamelessly on a daily basis.

Another Congresswoman, Barbara Lee, directly challenged Colin Powell in a formal letter to him February 12th, after Powell had announced that the US administration is not interested in regime change in Haiti. Said Lee: It appears that the US is aiding and abetting the attempt to violently topple the Aristide government. With all due respect, this looks like regime changeOur actions or inaction may be making things worse.

Anyone ever question why the comments of Congresswomen Maxine Waters and Barbara Lee are not being reported at all in the corporate mass media?

_______________

more-

http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=4996
The US Double Game in Haiti - Feb 16, 2004

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=5045
Haiti's Lawyer: US Is Arming Anti-Aristide Paramilitaries, Calls For UN Peacekeepers - Feb 26, 2004
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Pathwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. Maxine Waters was on CNN today, flat out accusing the Bush
adminstration of staging this coup, as she called it. Called it a lie that he had stepped down, a lie that he was known to be in DR. Demanded to hear from him. No shy wallflower, Maxine! Then, Charlie Rangel was on ABC tonight, echoing the very same sentiments. But, otherwise the coverage was skewed, blaming Clinton, as usual.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is an OUTRAGE!!!
KPFT.org live feed...

Aristide supporters are being Killed right now...Petionville Mayor being killed right now. Two dead in front of house.

The Mayor of Port Au Prince is under siege in his house by the terrorist rebels.

A mass killing all because of this US intervention.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. It's good news for US investors and businesses!
Paulaine Saint-Fleur..received 55 gourdes a day when she started..Now she makes 110 gourdes..but the wage increase has had little impact. "Now the cost of living is so much higher," she said, "that 110 gourdes is basically the same as 55 gourdes was."..she has no children, she makes more than most people at the factory, she lives in her mother's house, she lives close to the factory, and she has an uncle who helps out with expenses...she spends 95 gourdes per day on transportation and food for herself.

Last April, the Haitian government raised the national minimum wage from 36 gourdes a day ($2.40 when it was passed in 1994) to 70 gourdes per day (about $1.70 today). But even this paltry sum, lower than the cost of living for the frugal, is often overlooked even by the government itself.

"At the same time that President Aristide was campaigning for increased wages, he was ousted..."he was committed to raising the minimum wage to 72 gourdes" in 1994, "but after lengthy dialogue with the labor unions, domestic and foreign employers," etc., "the bill that finally went before Parliament raised the wage to 36 gourdes a day," from 15. The explanation continued...The president wanted to raise it to 72 gourdes this year, but was pressured to settle at 70 gourdes.

Even Marie-Claude Baillard, the president of the Association of Haitian Industries, acknowledges that the current minimum wage is too low, "in a sense, in terms of the cost of living." But "at the level of the enterprises, there is ferocious competition and the salaries must be competitive," she added. "It's not the most desirable situation," she said, but insisted that the salaries must be kept low in order to create more jobs in Haiti.

http://haitisupport.gn.apc.org/Bracken.htm


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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
47. Waters on right now

www.kpft.org
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eablair3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. yes, our gov't supplied these criminal thugs with M-16s and other weapons
The REPUGS have wanted to do this for years:

The logic of the State Department, according to COHA, sees Aristide as little more than a beardless Castro, who was despised by Jesse Helms, a tradition that is being carried on by his ideological heirs in the State Department, Roger Noriega and Otto Reich. We should recall that this sort of attitude was prominent over a decade ago, when Aristide was first elected President.

In 1991, Aristide was overthrown by the brutal paramilitary, led by former CIA employees Emmanuel Constant and Raoul Cedras. The massive influx of refugees fleeing Haiti from the brutal FRAPH paramilitary regime, in addition to a groundswell of domestic support for Haiti, forced Clinton to restore democracy to Haiti in 1994. Aristide, having his way cleared by US troops, returned to Haiti recognized internationally as its legitimate leader.

Aristides return was only made possible when he embraced the Haitian bourgeoisie and accepted a U.S. occupation and Washingtons neoliberal agenda. As Noam Chomsky has detailed, The Aristide government to keep to a standard "structural adjustment" package, with foreign funds devoted primarily to debt repayment and the needs of the business sectors, and with an "open foreign investment policy."

snip

http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=4977

__________


What is the role of the US in Haiti? The US was the main supporter of the Duvalier dictatorship. In 1986, when Haiti's pro-democracy movement finally succeeded in overthrowing the hated dictator, he was ferried to safety by the Reagan Administration.

Only with the rise of Aristide, Haiti's first democratically elected president, did US support shift from the Haitian leadership to those who orchestrated the 1991 coup d'etat.

In 1994, public pressure and fear of an influx of Haitian 'boat people' led the Clinton Administration to reverse the coup d'etat and restore Aristide to power.

The Republican leadership strongly opposed the intervention. In 1995, when Republicans took control of Congress, they pushed to cancel US aid to Haiti and to finance the opposition by reallocating federal funds to Haitian non-governmental organizations opposed to Aristide.

In 2000, the Republicans exploited Haiti's electoral controversy as an opportunity to discredit Aristide. The Bush Administration pressured the Inter-American Development Bank to cancel more than $650 million in development assistance and approved loans to Haiti -- money that was slated to pay for safe drinking water, literacy programs and health services.


The seven contested senators are long gone, but the embargo remains in place, denying critical services to the poorest people in the hemisphere.

What is Aristide's record? The US allowed Aristide to be reinstated on the condition that he implement a neoliberal economic agenda.

Aristide complied with some US demands, including a reduction of tariffs on US-grown rice that bankrupted thousands of Haitian farmers and maintenance of a below- subsistence-level minimum wage.

But Aristide resisted privatizing state-owned resources, because of protests from his political base and because he was reluctant to relinquish control over these sources of wealth.

Aristide eventually doubled the minimum wage and -- despite the embargo -- prioritized education and healthcare: he built schools and renovated public hospitals; established new HIV-testing centers and doctor-training programs; and introduced a program to subsidize schoolbooks and uniforms and expand school lunch and bussing services.

Aristide has tried to walk a line between US demands for neoliberal reforms and his own commitment to a progressive economic agenda. As a result, he has lost favor with parts of his own political base and Haitian and US elites.

Aristide has also been criticized for turning a blind eye to human rights abuses committed by his supporters and by advocates of good governance for rewarding loyalists with government posts regardless of their qualifications. (a patronage system even more extensive than the one that has filled the Bush Administration with former CEOs and corporate lobbyists.)

So Should Progressives Support Aristide? The current crisis is not about supporting or opposing Aristide the man, but about defending constitutional democracy in Haiti. In a democracy, elections-and not vigilante violence-should be the measure of 'the will of the people.' Aristide has repeatedly invited the opposition to participate in elections and they have refused, knowing that they cannot win at the polls.

snip

http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=5043
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
38. Thanks for linking that zmag article. It reveals our right-wing disrespect
for THIS country's citizens, moving behind the surface, steering events, a l Reagan.

Becaause we CAN find articles and information like this, those of us who don't condone brutal manipulation of the affairs of other countries are able to see the "quality" of information and positions we're being fed, through our own media, and the Bush supporters who show up even where you least expect to see them.

Real information has the ring of truth. Everything else DOESN'T. One day we'll all be aware of what measures our Republicans will resort to, and it will get harder and harder for them to pull it off.

This is a national disgrace, AGAIN. I hope it doesn't all end today, for Christ's sake. Bush should NOT be able to walk away untouched from this treachery.

This article is worth saving, and making print-outs to pass around.
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brads Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. Pacifica reporting mayors of Port au Prince & another city under attack
They are reporting the houses of the elected mayors of Port au Prince and one other city are under violent attack right now. In one case it is reported that US helicopters are flying overhead but doing nothing to stop it.
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. US Uniforms/US Guns being used to kill Aristide allies.
US Copters flying around doing absolutely nothing! Meanwhile killings all over Haiti. Killing all the members of Lavallas.

KPFT.org live feed massive murder.
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SodoffBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. I am not picking up that feed.
Is it still on?
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I AM SPARTACUS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
33. the choppers are likely to be ferrying people...
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 05:52 PM by I AM SPARTACUS
...who are probably making the situation worse...
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
39. Any visual verification
of these US uniforms/guns/helicopters?
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Who else would it be?
Ya think it's the Ruskies?

There are a couple of images from AP/Yahoo, etc... that clearly show US weapons and new BDUs. Eyewitness reports said that the helicopters they saw were US made. No indication on whether flags or insignia were seen.

The caretaker of the Presidential residence was quite clear that it was US marines that escorted Aristide 'somewhere', however.
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pinniped Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. These guys also have IDF weapons, 5.56mm Galil assault rifles.
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 07:27 PM by sfg25



This rebel is equipped with a late model variant of the M16.

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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Ok, there's one picture of a M4
Where are the uniforms and helicopters?
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #45
65. who the heck is the white guy?
Edited on Mon Mar-01-04 03:43 AM by Snazzy
Yeah, m16.

That's a telling photo. DGSE? Or is it....

Nah--he must be one of the US or maybe Canadian DSS guys.

You need the caption. White guy with m16 does not a secretly armed with modern weapons coup make. Not rebel.

Secretly plotted coup we got. Bad enough, no need to cloudy the waters about the weapons--already cloudy.

Also, FAS lists the Galil as party of the former Haitian Army's equipment. http://www.fas.org/asmp/campaigns/smallarms/lainven.html

From brief reading, it is also probably old (say 70's). Israel shipped 'em all over because we shipped m-16's there. Design for IDF not really an IDF weapon. From what I can tell, this is a dated version--I thought they were AK's originally, thanks for clearing that up.

(edit--clean up and did some more research)
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Snazzy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #40
63. Are those BDU's? Military expert comment welcome
(But first a disclaimer: I agree this was a US engineered coup).

I hit the Yahoo ap photo feed and also some others a couple of days ago when Aristide himself and also his Miami-based (?) lawyer were talking about the weapons. After looking around at photos, I thought they overstated. Mostly I saw old rifles (I think someone said wwII era m-1's). I saw some shot guns, modern pistols. The rebel leader had a m-16 in several photos. But basically came to the conclusion that they were old weapons, and somewhat of a variety, that the vast majority of photographed guerrillas had. I saw live footage at one point with a couple of larger mounted weapons and a very modern rpg on one guy. Mostly, if 'we' did arm them, it appeared to be with old weapons, either for deniability or through time.

The bdus (if that's what they are, more in a sec.) and uniforms/boots/leg gear stood out as brand new. Actually it looked to be riot gear or the stuff that prison shleps use to put down a prison riot. An emphasis on padding and looking like a storm trooper, not stopping bullets and shrapnel. It also looked like these guys didn't know how to wear the stuff. They looked more like they were ready for a hockey game (under clothes vs. on top maybe). Add the blue motorcycle helmets and you do get the press' ever popular "ragtag."

Cast offs from after Miami PD got $18 mil for FTAA?
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eablair3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. apparenlty, yes there is .. pics have apparently been taken
http://www.guerrillanews.com/human_rights/doc3988.html
this info was reported at Pacifica, Demcracy Now, Znet, and several other sites:

snip

"These people came through the Dominican border after the United States had provided 20,000 M-16's to the Dominican army," says Kurzban. "I believe that the United States clearly knew about it before, and that given the fact of the history of these people, probably very, very deeply involved, and I think Congress needs to seriously look at what the involvement of the Defense Intelligence Agency and the Central Intelligence Agency has been in this operation. Because it is a military operation. It's not a rag-tag group of liberators, as has often been put in the press in the last week or two."

Kurzban says he has hired military analysts to review photos of the weapons being used by the paramilitary groups. He says that contrary to reports in the media that the armed groups are using weapons originally distributed by Aristide, the gangs are using highly sophisticated and powerful weapons; weapons that far out-gun Aristide's 3,000 member National Police force.

"I don't think that there's any question about the fact that the weapons that they have did not come from Haiti," says Kurzban. "They're organized as a military commando strike force that's going from city to city."

Kurzban says that among the weapons being used by the paramilitaries are: M-16's, M-60's, armor piercing weapons and rocket-propelled grenade launchers. "They have weapons to shoot down the one helicopter that the government has," he said. "They have acted as a pretty tight-knit commando unit."

snip

http://www.guerrillanews.com/human_rights/doc3988.html


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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. they got rid of him
because he wouldn`t play the game and the rest of the government was involved in the coke trade. so now the people have the thugs and old secret police back in power. the people still will be the poorest in the western hemisphere and the usa will have a base to keep a watch on Venezuela and the narco trade,or maybe the cia will get back into the trade...
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Get back into the trade?
They never left.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
13. Democracy A Dream, Reality A Nightmare
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
15. We forced a democratically elected leader from office???
:wtf:

Dubya strikes again!!!!!!!

:mad:
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ninkasi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
44. This is no doubt an example
of Dubya's "humble foreign policy. Hypocritacal, lying bastard.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
16. The Evil Empire strikes again
Isn't this all about the presidential election???

ChimpCo did this to prevent a politically unsightly Haitian boat-lift.

These people will stop at nothing to retain the White House.

They have got to go.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
20. And yet, there are people on this very website who swallowed propaganda.
I've run across a few posts here that seem informed only by the corporate media on the entire issue, and which attacked others for commenting that maybe there was more to this story than the mass media was telling us.

I guess those of us who questioned the media's version of events were right. Wish we hadn't been - good people are dying yet again for our country's aims.

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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I think some of the the swallowing is being done on DU.
Zhade writes, without any information, that the rumor/propaganda of a U.S. coup is a fact, and that anyone who disagrees, or has doubts, is informed only by corporate media.

I have an open mind. I've seen nothing to persuade me there has been a U.S.-led coup. Let the dust settle, and let's make up our minds when facts, not pre-determined conclusions, are available.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. No -- wouldn't want to make any assumptions...
....like I remember so many, including yourself, making about Iraq before the invasion.

Seems to be situational non-assumptiveness.

I guess I just invented a word.
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DenverDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. And who will supply these "facts"?
Faux, CNN, the white house?
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Love the handle!
Perfect fit!
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Then where did the rebels get
the guns, uniforms and money. The island of Haiti has been under a trade and arnms embargo since Bu$hSr was in power?

How come the rebels who started this thing 3 weeks ago are being called terrorists and alleged to have al Qaeda connections?

Why does the US think it's perfectly okay for a democraticly elected leader to be overthrown in a violent coup? Isn't that a dangerous thing for the US to support? Especially considering the lengths Bu$hCo has gone to prevent even peaceful protest in the country?

Open your eyes, there's a long history of Bu$hCo involvement here.
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eablair3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. how about some of this-these are not "predetermined conclusions"
Edited on Sun Feb-29-04 05:53 PM by eablair3
I like facts too, but am mostly convinced already about this. If you aren't, there are some real good articles out recently on the background of all this. Let me know if you want links.

the weapons that were used by the "opposition" rebels were according to reports American -- M-16s, grenades, anti-helicopter missiles

there is evidence in reports that the U.S. recently shipped such weapons to the Dominican Republic.

there have been reports that the these opposition rebels were being trained in the DR by CIA/DIA.

the CIA has previously trained these types before when the elder Bush was in office and they overthrew Aristide then.

Clinton put Aristide back in office over howling protests of the Repubs.

The Repubs have wanted Aristide gone for years.

The Repubs have recently provided funding for these opposition groups thru the National Endowment for Democracy and a group formed there called the Convergence for Democracy.

There has been an organized propaganda/media campaign to suvert the truth -- Aristide was democratically elected and even very recently said he is willing to go to elections again. The opposition is only supported by the business and elite class and can only garner 8 percent of the vote there. They thus resort to armed takeover, supported by the U.S. and its business interests.

Aristide hasn't been willing to sell off and privatize all of Haiti, but rather has been building schools and health clinics for the people.

This has been written about at certain places and several in congress have spoken and written about it. Of course, Maxine Waters and Barbara Lee don't get put on the national mass media at times like this, and even if they did, it wouldn't make a huge difference as ALL the pundits that these shows put on just continually regurgitate the government line of propaganda.

How many lies do people have to be told by Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Powell and Rumsfeld, before they start realizing that they are being lied to?

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Suspicious Donating Member (780 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Without any information?
Rumor/propaganda of a U.S.-backed coup? No, it is a fact. There is more than ample information to back up the fact within the forums of DU, alone. Then you have the entire web, with an abundance of independent news sources to verify the facts.

If you've seen nothing to persuade you that Aristide was the victim of a U.S.-backed coup, you either 1) don't read much (other than what you obtain from the corporate media, whose agenda is obvious) or 2) your mind is nowhere near as open as you profess.

The dust doesn't need to settle for anyone to draw an informed conclusion - if you have been paying attention for the last 10 years or so, the truth is as evident as it can be. Just because you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't make it any less a fact.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #35
54. Oh, come on! Why else has Bush been calling for the
Edited on Mon Mar-01-04 12:33 AM by Matilda
elected President to resign?

This is no popular uprising - it's the common people of the country
who are the victims of these thugs. They always have been.

We all knew Bush was going to attack somebody before the election.
This is just the beginning, I'm afraid.

On edit: This was supposed to link to post 23.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Just pray for them. It'll be their town's turn soon enough
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nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. Do embedded reporters who didn't have any one to go to bed with.........
Get special pay for the duty?

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1077923413098
Gunmen target terrified journalists

RICK WESTHEAD
STAFF REPORTER
(snip)
There were similar shakedowns at gunpoint across the city as tensions boiled over.

Looters pillaged stores, hijacked cars and torched gas stations. Youths fortified street barriers made of wrecked cars, tires and broken cement blocks. And thousands ransacked goods depots in the Port-au-Prince harbour, making off with everything from candy to car parts.

Last night, the city suffered a power blackout, and rebels took the police station in the suburb of Petionville.

Paramilitary soldiers were deployed throughout the city, and diplomatic sources said Aristide may have authorized attacks on journalists to pressure the international community to send in troops to protect Port-au-Prince from advancing rebels.

Shots were fired at an SUV being used by a crew from the U.S. network NBC, and its rear window was smashed with a rifle butt. Gunmen also targeted a car driven by a press attach to the French embassy.

There were reports that at least five bodies, hands tied behind their back, were found near the presidential palace in the city's central district, where rotting garbage is piled high and the going rate for prostitutes is 50 cents (U.S.).

"This city is going mad," said Joseph Chery, hired as a driver for members of the international media.

U.N. officials will meet this morning to discuss plans for evacuating the 40 workers still inside Port-au-Prince, just days after more than 100 non-essential U.N. staffers and their families shipped out
(snip)
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
22. Happy 200th Anniversary! Haiti
Help the Haitian Government of President Aristide!

Contact your government today.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
29. JUST IN ON FAUX: ARISTIDE BREAST EXPOSED BY U.S. TROOPS!!
The only way the major media will cover this story.
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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. LOL
I laughed at loud at your subject line.

I can't believe the utter chaos -- and the monkey sits in the corner, playing with himself (the Bush Aviator Doll?)

http://www.wgoeshome.com

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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Thanks boobooday!
Great website!
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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
42. Wonder how far Bush will go in November
He has proved at least three times now (Venezuela, Haiti, 2000 election) that he could care less about democracy.
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. Amy Goodman/Dennis Bernstein
US did everything imaginable to prevent Aristide from succeeding. -- says Dr. Randall Robinson on the Pacifica special.
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Vitruvius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
49. kick
:kick:
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-29-04 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
50. Timeline & NYT Lies
4:00 AM EST - Foley arrived at the National Palace

5:00 - Aristide interviewed by ABC camera crew

5:30 - Aristide taken away IN HANDCUFFS by 10 marines

http://www.haitiaction.net/



By LYDIA POLGREEN - January 2, 2004
photo: Ruth Fremson/The New York Times

caption: Supporters of Jean-Bertrand Aristide, the Haitian leader, cheered outside the presidential palace in Port-au-Prince Thursday, celebrating the 200th anniversary of a victory over France that led to Haiti's independence.PORT-AU-PRINCE, Haiti, Jan. 1 - Two hundred years ago, an army of African slaves defeated French forces on this tropical island, ending Napoleon's ambition to dominate the Americas and paving the way for the first black republic.
On Thursday, President Jean-Bertrand Aristide led a tense and chaotic observance of that bicentennial, though many found little to celebrate in Mr. Aristide's governance over what, after 200 years of independence, remains an impoverished and troubled nation.

Speaking to a small but enthusiastic crowd, Mr. Aristide called Haiti "the mother of liberty," and appealed to opposition groups, which have mounted ever larger demonstrations against his government, to agree to new elections this year.



http://www.haitiaction.net/News/NYT.html

Small crowd?
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. idiots..
Edited on Mon Mar-01-04 12:26 AM by Aidoneus
this should not be, slates like that have to be wiped clean. I don't think there's any way around that, being so predictable and consistantly as this..

Safe bet that exactly that was the line chosen by the French-language voice of the ruling caste (and by proxy, their agents deposing the President now).. apparently that's the main source of "news" on the matter in times like this for places like the Times.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
53. even Carter saw thru Aristade
sorry but I wouldn't call the guy "democratically elected" based on these reports

re: 1995 election

The Carter Center report on the ensuing election -- written by Carter confidant and former National Security Council advisor Robert Pastor -- documents the disgraceful conduct of the Aristide government and his Lavalas party. "Of the 13 elections I have observed, the June 25 Haitian elections were the most disastrous technically, with the most insecure count," Pastor said in the report. "I personally witnessed the compromise of one-third of the ballot boxes in Port-au-Prince."

According to the report, the election was riddled with graft, fraud and chaos, with widespread irregularities, ballots burned, hundreds of voting stations never opened and tens of thousands of people never able to vote.

The report, issued by the Atlanta-based Carter Center, exposes Aristide's one-party "Lavalas" rule, with its widespread corruption, mismanagement and ballot manipulating, particularly in the June 25 election. Aristide's allies swept local and parliamentary seats in that balloting.

President Carter's critique of Aristide is especially startling, considering the long political association between the two. When Aristide won Haiti's 1990 presidential election, the Carter Center was at the forefront of groups supporting the results

A critical part of Aristide's plan for seizing total power in Haiti has been his illegal and authoritarian command of the Provisional Electoral Council (CEP) that conducted the fraudulent June election. Sensing trouble in March, Carter visited Haiti and was formally rebuffed by Aristide. Unofficially, he was greeted by hostile crowds and vicious graffiti, all engineered by Lavalas street gangs intent on embarrassing the former U.S. chief executive

http://www.cartercenter.org/documents/1248.pdf

and these reports on 2000 election from politics and elections.com


Former President Jean-Bertrand Aristide won election as president of Haiti again, winning 92% of the vote according to the country's electoral council. All major opposition parties boycotted the election.

Aristide's Lavalas Family Party won all nine Senate seats that were contested, giving it all but one seat in the upper house. Lavalas Family also won 80% of the House of Assembly seats in may, June and July legislative elections. Opponents charge that those elections were rigged to enable Aristide to govern with, effectively, one-party rule.

Aristide was first elected in 1990, ending nearly 200 years of dictatorship. A bloody army coup kicked him out seven months later, followed by a terroristic military government, and than an invasion by U.S. troops to restore Aristide to power.

Opposition activist Evans Paul said ballot boxes were stuffed and tally sheets altered to make it look like a higher turnout. Some polls closed hours early for lack of voters.

more...

http://www.politicsandelections.com/international/hai.htm
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. junior sounds a hell of a lot worse than Aristide.
"The Carter Center" sounds like a slanted right wing rant!
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #55
56. need more?
direct Aristade quote

""Yes, we have less (support) than we had in
1990 ... but I think the 30,000 gangsters want
to keep me in power against the majority of
the Haitian people," Aristide said. "And if you
compare the millions Dollars I have and what
the one who comes behind me can get
there you will see a huge margin of
difference."

http://www.oplpeople.com/message/1034.html
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einniv Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. Rebuttal from the left.
Edited on Mon Mar-01-04 02:23 AM by einniv
http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=4977
--snip--
US Congresswoman Maxine Waters issued a press release Feb. 11th, on the heels of her recent visit to Haiti, that called on the Bush administration to join her in condemning the so-called opposition and, specifically, Andre Apaid Jr., who is a Duvalier supporter that, along with his Group of 184, is attempting to instigate a bloodbath in Haiti and then blame the government for the resulting disaster in the belief that the U.S. will aid the so-called protestors against President Aristide. <5>

She also took aim at the World Bank and IMF and their continuing embargo , which amounts to hundreds of millions of desperately needed funds. Rep. Waters outlined the following positive measures that Aristide has initiated:

Under his leadership, the Haitian government has made major investments in agriculture, public transportation and infrastructureThe government doubled the minimum wage from 36 to 70 gourdes per day, despite strong opposition from the business communityPresident Aristide has also made health care and education national priorities. More schools were built in Haiti between 1994 and 2000 than between 1804 and 1994. The government expanded school lunch and school bus programs and provides a 70% subsidy for schoolbooks and uniforms

--snip--

Interestingly, the corporate media has neglected to mention that the opposition to which they refer and repeatedly give legitimacy to, only represents a meagre 8 per cent of registered voters in Haiti, according to a US poll conducted in 2000. According to the Council on Hemispheric Affairs , their only policy goal seems to be reconstituting the army and the implementation of rigorous structural adjustment programs. <4> As corporate journalists rely on the opposition for little more than inflammatory soundbites, information that would otherwise be sought to lend their efforts credibility is repeatedly overlooked.

US Congresswoman Maxine Waters issued a press release Feb. 11th, on the heels of her recent visit to Haiti, that called on the Bush administration to join her in condemning the so-called opposition and, specifically, Andre Apaid Jr., who is a Duvalier supporter that, along with his Group of 184, is attempting to instigate a bloodbath in Haiti and then blame the government for the resulting disaster in the belief that the U.S. will aid the so-called protestors against President Aristide. <5>



http://zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=5043
--snip--
So Should Progressives Support Aristide? The current crisis is not about supporting or opposing Aristide the man, but about defending constitutional democracy in Haiti. In a democracy, elections-and not vigilante violence-should be the measure of 'the will of the people.' Aristide has repeatedly invited the opposition to participate in elections and they have refused, knowing that they cannot win at the polls.

How Should the Crisis be Resolved? MADRE supports the proposal of the Caribbean Community (CARICOM, a consortium of Caribbean governments) which:

Rejects any violent overthrow of the government and insists that any change in government be in compliance with Haiti's constitution.

Calls on the opposition to accept Aristide's offer to take part in elections in order to break the impasse that has frozen Haiti's government for the past several years.

Calls on the international community to provide economic assistance to Haiti in order to alleviate the country's grinding poverty and create some foundation for economic and political stability.

MADRE also calls on the Bush Administration to:

Unequivocally denounce the opposition and cease any financial, political or military support for its forces.

Lift the embargo that is denying urgently needed development aid and health programs to Haitian women and families.

Some Statistics on Haiti

-> The richest 1% of the population controls nearly half of all of Haiti's wealth.

-> Haiti has long ranked as the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere and is the fourth poorest country in the world.

-> Haiti ranks 146 out of 173 on the Human Development Index.*

-> Life expectancy is 52 years for women and 48 for men*.

-> Adult literacy is about 50%.*

-> Unemployment is about 70%.*

-> 85% of Haitians live on less than $1 US per day.*

-> Haiti ranks 38 out of 195 for under-five mortality rate.*


--snip--
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einniv Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. More Rebuttal from same articles
Edited on Mon Mar-01-04 02:39 AM by einniv
What is the Political Backdrop to the Conflict? The crisis dates back to a political stalemate stemming from a contested election. In 2000-the same year that George Bush stole the US presidency-Haiti held elections for 7,500 positions nationwide. Election observers contested the winners of seven senate seats.

President Aristide balked at first, but eventually yielded and the seven senators resigned. Members of Haiti's elite, long hostile to Aristide's progressive economic agenda, saw the controversy as an opportunity to derail his government.


And yet the embargo is still in place and people like you are still screaming about it?????? And think rule by thugs (thugs with 8% support) should rule the day?

(8% thugs funded by my tax dollars i might add)
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einniv Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #56
62. Need more?
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. Reporters without Borders
Reporters sans frontieres

Nearly 30 Haitian journalists have fled abroad in the past three years after being threatened by Aristide supporters and two journalists have been murdered. As a result, Aristide has been put on the Reporters Without Borders worldwide list of 42 predators of press freedom

Haiti - 2003 Annual Report

Impunity continued to hold sway in Haiti. It gave government supporters a free hand to harass and attack the press and opposition. Facing growing opposition, President Aristide's government tried to use fear to hold on to power. More journalists were forced into exile. The investigations into the deaths of Jean Dominique and Brignol Lindor did not progress. On the contrary, their killers continued to threaten the families of both journalists.

At least 40 journalists were physically attacked or threatened in 2002. The Association of Haitian Journalists (AJH) put the figure at more than 60. Some had reported on the collapse of the cooperative savings schemes in 2002, which ruined tens of thousands of small savers and in which the government was allegedly implicated at the highest level. It was amid such scandals that Isral Jacky Cantave of Carabes FM was kidnapped in July in what Cantave viewed as a government warning to the press. After Cantave was threatened and forced into exile, a warrant was issued for his arrest for not cooperating with investigators.
The year ended with demonstrations demanding President Aristide's resignation and growing tension, in which journalists paid the price. Seven journalists had to go into hiding in Gonaves after covering one of the first big anti-government demonstrations. They were threatened by the Cannibal Army, a "popular organisation" led by Amiot Mtayer which terrorized this northern town ever since Mtayer broke out of prison in August 2002. After initially promising to rearrest him, the government apparently preferred to use him as a blunt instrument against its opponents.
Mtayer had been arrested because of his violent attacks on the opposition during a supposedly spontaneous reaction to what was portrayed as an attempted coup d'etat on 17 December 2001. An Organisation of American States (OAS) enquiry published in July concluded not only that it was not a coup d'etat but also that police officers were accomplices to the attack staged on the presidential palace. The enquiry also stressed that the ensuing violence against the opposition had been carried with logistic support from the authorities. Those targeted on 17 December 2001 included some 10 journalists who afterwards went into exile. The increasingly discredited government could try to repeat this kind of operation, in which it poses as the victim in order to have a pretext for cracking down on the opposition and press.

http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=6197

thats just one RWB article...many more here

http://www.rsf.fr/sinequa_en.php3?iFullTextQuery=haiti&iLanguage=engli ...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
uhhuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #56
67. You realize that this "article" was completely
made up ,don't you? Did you read it? It is supposed to be an offical AP release, but it doesn't seem to exist anywhere but on this page, and had no link.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #56
68. I have no idea where this website originates, but it looks fishy to me.
Not even Dubya would be stupid enough to come out with remarks like
those attributed to Aristide.

This is too ridiculous for words.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. It is similar to "finding" one of the 9/11 suspects passport on a NYC
sidewalk on 9/11/2001.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. National Security Council?
A bastion of rightwing neocons. Where is National Security Council advisor Robert Pastor's great concern for the integrity of OUR election process? Where is Jimmy Carters?

It appears we can now arm a group of thugs and support their topple of a democratically elected President. We used to work with the rest of the world and do so diplomatically for peaceful solutions. Now it seems we can just attack anyone unilaterally if we don't like their leader. It will be very serious if Aristide was taken by American soldiers. We will cement our hypocrisy when we claim we're champions of democracy.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. yikes....Pastor was in Carter Administration!!!
Earth to Oaf...all Presidents have NSCs even democratic ones like Carter...Dr Pastor served under Carter...understand??

He has been a foreign policy advisor to each of the Democratic Presidential candidates since 1976 and was Co-Chair of the Advisory Committee on the Americas for the Gore-Lieberman campaign. He was the Senior Advisor to the Carter-Nunn-Powell mission to Haiti and was nominated by President Clinton to be Ambassador to Panama in 1993.

http://www.american.edu/sis/Faculty/pastor.htm

you might want to wait for more facts before you jump to conclusions about Haiti...
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tedzbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-04 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
58. The Haitian poor are bearing the burden as always...
Both Aristide and his opposition sound corrupt and murderous to me. Somehow I don't believe Aristide would be so easily led out in handcuffs if he had been walking the walk and not just talking the talk.
At the same time, the financial squeeze play orchestrated by the United States government has hurt the Haitian poor a lot more than anything Aristide's regime has done. In fact, Aristide's undoing may have began with his sell out to Clinton's neoliberal financiers in order to be returned to power. The subsequent economic straight jacket that he agreed to wear only weakened his standing to the point that he felt it necessary to make some unsavory, dictatorial moves to survive.
I wonder if the United Nations will actually be able to turn this tragedy around or whether it will stay the same as the last 200 years.

I find it hypocritical for the US to question the validity of the last Haitian election after the farce that WE were subjected to in November 2000. Sort of like the pot calling the kettle black.

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