Iraq veteran kicked off bus over service dog

[sabra]

Source: WKTR

Arthur Schwartz was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder after coming back from Iraq. His job there involved identifying the bodies of dead American soldiers.

Doctors assigned Schwartz a service dog to help fight anxiety. However Miami-Dade bus drivers have been kicking Schwartz and his dog off because his disability is not a visible condition.

That's illegal under Americans with Disabilities Act.

"And on Saturday morning, I got on the bus to go to the VA and first thing when I got on, I got into a confrontation about I can't have a dog on the bus and if I'm not blind and if I don't explain what my disability is; And I said, well, I'm not going to do that, so they stopped, shut off the bus, they get on their phone, they get off the bus, they call the headquarters and we go around and around until somebody gets on and decides they're going to drive the bus away. And that's usually what I have most of the time," says Schwartz.

Miami-Dade transit officials apologized, and say they're taking steps to educate all their drivers about service dogs on their buses

Read more: http://www.wtkr.com/news/military/wtkr-iraq-vet-kicked-off-bus,0,6434445.story

[proteus_lives]

1. Shameful!

Those service dogs do a lot of good.

I hope the transit people are serious about educating their employees.

[saigon68]

11. Let me add, DISGUSTING AND INSENSITIVE

I COULD CALL THEM MOTHERFUCKERS TOO.

but I won't. We have a "nice nice" society in the US.

Its no mystery that all the underprivileged in the world hate our guts after seeing shit like this.

[midnight]

2. K&R!!

[Vinca]

3. He ought to find a lawyer to "educate" them.

[damntexdem]

4. They apologized -- but ADA them to death anyway.

The transit officials' duty was to educate their drivers BEFORE something like this happened.

[T Wolf]

5. Can I bring my dog if i want to? Seems like he is seeking "special" treatment because he was in the

military.

By this criteria - I miss my dog so I have to have him with me. Not a real disability like blindness.

[ladywnch]

6. please tell me you're kidding and you just forgot your sarcasm icon

if not, try doing some research before you make asinine comments about things you clearly know nothing about.

[Quantess]

7. "Doctors assigned Schwartz a service dog to help fight anxiety"

Service dogs are, in a way, prescribed to people. You only are allowed a service dog if you are deemed to have a good reason. Much like disabled tags that allow someone to park in handicapped parking. I'm surprised this has to be explained to anyone.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

9. Thank you for the post.

Service dogs are being used for a lot more that blindness. We have a local teacher who has MS and uses a dog to help steady him when he's moving. They are used to help people with Autism, siezures and right now my mind went blank as to what other uses, but just because a disability isn't blatantly obvious doesn't mean that someone doesn't require and deserve one.

If the previous person (#5) simply forgot the sarcasm tag, I apologize to them. If they were serious, this place is getting some disturbing posts lately.

[Bette Noir]

20. Diabetes is another, and profound hearing loss.

[Quantess]

34. A friend of mine has a service dog for seizures,

and he takes the dog on the bus with him.

A service dog is practically a protected class of citizen, since they are allowed to go just about anywhere people can.

Whether the poster was being sarcastic or actually didn't know...it doesn't matter. It's an opportunity to inform people.

Oh, and welcome to DU! :hi:

[Altoid_Cyclist]

38. Thank you for the welcome. That's why I stayed in the background for 4 years.

I figured that I could gain a lot of knowledge and have access to information that I wasn't seeing in the Corporate Media if I just stayed quiet and read as many posts as I could.
I finally figured; what the heck, you have time to put in your two cents worth from time to time.

Thank you Bette Noir for several other uses for service dogs. My mind just isn't what it used to be. I was thinking about the deaf or hard of hearing and I just zoned out before I could type it.

Story on the local teacher:
http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/?cid=81851#

[No Elephants]

43. It is indeed. Welcome.

[Altoid_Cyclist]

67. Thank you for the welcome.

I'm still afraid that we're falling victim to the inward hostility that occurs when a common enemy (BFEE: may they not RIP before they're brought to justice) is no longer a uniting factor.

Now we seem to be turning on each other just a little too often.

[badgerpup]

33. Don't non-seeing-eye service critters usually wear a 'uniform'?

The ones I've seen around town acting as service dogs to people wear a green jacket sort of thing.
Identifies them right away AS a service dog for whatever reason (and it's really nobody's business but the dog and its human) and there's no hassle.

The dogs don't wear quite the same harness and leash one is accustomed to seeing with Seeing-eye...but they do have a harness, and it's obvious the dog is working.
You treat them the the same as seeing-eye dogs (i.e., you don't just go up and make with the "Nice doggie!" without checking with the owner first).
I've found that commenting on the dog ('That's a lovely dog') will sometimes elict some information about what kind of job the dog performs.
Most people seem pretty cool about it, and their 'service animals' are often truly their best friends.

[Quantess]

36. Yes, definitely the dog is supposed to be wearing a patch on his/her harness

to show that he/she is a working service dog, and, for credibility and legitimacy. I imagine that is a given, that the service dog wears his/her "uniform".

A service dog without its uniform is in a similar bind to a disabled person who left their handicapped parking tag at home...they are no longer legally recognized. But that's just my guess.

The most adoptable dogs: service training dropouts! :) Many of the dogs who go through service training don't make it to be one of the few & the proud, LOL. There is often a waiting list for these well-educated dogs.

[No Elephants]

48. Apparently, the badge and/or vest is optional.

http://www.servicedogtags.com/?gclid=CJOdmZys0Z0CFQtN5Qod-yn8qw

[WriteDown]

50. Interesting...

I've always wanted to put an orange vest on my dog so he could ride the train. I always wondered if we could get away with that. :)

[EndersDame]

70. I agree that they should but I can also see him not wanting to advertise that he has PTSD

[TommyO]

8. This was a prescribed service animal, denying access to the bus was illegal

What part of that are you missing?

[Life Long Dem]

10. Stress doesn't seem to bother him by going through this routine.

A bit odd.

[saigon68]

12. Maybe he could buy a gun

</sarcasm>

[Life Long Dem]

15. That's one way to relieve stress. But he causes stress by doing this.

[AlienGirl]

31. That's for him and his psychiatrist to determine, and no one else.

[tazkcmo]

32. And how/why do you assume

the stress doesn't bother him? And possibly, if in fact the stress DOES bother him, his prescribed service dog helps him to cope with the stress. Geez.

[No Elephants]

45. Why are you assuming the stress was not affecting him? And whtat is your point anyway?

Surely, you don't think you are in a better position than his doctor to know whether he benefits from a service dog. What's the alternative? That he just likes to takes dogs on buses, so he faked PSD because identifying dead comrades rolled off his back?

BTW, one of the things these dogs help with are flashbacks, which do not occur continuously.

[msanthrope]

13. Educate your ignorant ass. Service dogs are for more than

just visually-impaired persons.

Your dog would be ashamed to be seen with you.

[Tim01]

14. Washed out of boot camp,did you? nt

[Book Lover]

17. Sorry, no

Being an asshole is not a disability.

[No Elephants]

46. Ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winnah!

[frylock]

19. you should see if your asshole mentality makes you eligible for a dog..

you can also FOAD, asshole.

[ThomCat]

24. WTF?

:grr:

Clearly you don't know what a service dog is, or how thoroughly they are trained, or that the organizations that train them are licensed because of how complicated and thorough the training is. Service animals are well-trained aides. That training starts when they are young puppies and it is continuous until they are given to someone to be that person's service animal. The last stages of a dog's training is WITH the person that dog will be serving to make sure the dog has the exact right skills, the right temperament, and to make sure they understand each other and bond well.

I did state level lobbying here in New York State to make sure that service dogs are trained in licensed facilities, so when this soldier gets his service dog it won't be your pet dog that you miss so much.

Three are service dogs for people who can't see. Those guide dogs we are all pretty familiar with.

There are service dogs for people who can't hear. Those dogs are trained to respond to noises in ways that someone deaf would need, bringing things to their attention and keeping them safe from things they can't hear.

There are service dogs for people who lack use of their hands. Those dogs carry things, retrieve thing, open and close doors and cupboards, turn lights on and off, and are trained to manipulate a lot of household objects for the people they serve.

There are service gods for people with epilepsy. Those dogs detects seizures, provide warning so that the person can stop, go someplace safe, and maybe prevent the seizure. If the seizure can't be prevented, the dog protects the person during and after, and makes sure necessary meds and information are always at hand.

Similarly, there are service dogs for people with diabetes.

There are service dogs for people with severe anxiety. Those dogs are trained to detect signs of anxiety attacks and warn the person so that attacks can be avoided. If attacks happen, the dog is trained to protect the person from others, and others from the person. The dog is trained to try to dominate the person's attention and calm him/her down. Most importantly, the dog is trained to remain calm, and NOT to respond to the anxiety and drama by getting anxious.

It really is amazing what these dogs can be trained to do, and that these dogs are so amazingly willing to invest their entire lives in serving us in whatever way we need them.

Before you open up your mouth and spew again, perhaps you might want to know at least a little bit about the subject first.

[CreekDog]

26. "real disability like blindness?"

you are a fool not a doctor.

and that's not a diagnosis! :eyes:

[Brickbat]

27. If you get a doctor's prescription, sure!

Knock yourself out there, buddy!

[tazkcmo]

29. Not JUST in the military

As if that weren't enough , but also served in a war for us. He has problems you can't imagine. Excuse me, I have to throw up now.

[No Elephants]

41. ......

:wtf:

[merh]

66. PTSD is a real disability

I hope you never have to experience it.

[Flaneur]

16. What is wrong with DU these days?

It seems like no matter what the topic, somebody is determined to be a rude, insensitive boor.

[Pavulon]

18. No joke, devils advocate is great 99% of time, this is the exception 1%(nt)

[Hepburn]

21. I have a friend with a service dog because she is hearing impaired.

And, yes, she often gets bullshit ~~ but they ususally relent when they realize why she has the dog.

IMO, the public needs to be informed that that there are service dogs other than seeing eye dogs and these dogs can go anywhere the owner goes.

[AlienGirl]

22. Also animals that aren't dogs!

I know of parrots being used as medical alert animals to detect oncoming seizures, interrupt anxiety attacks, and even a parrot who helps his blind owner navigate. The great thing is they're smaller and easier to carry than a dog and they live much longer than a dog.

Tucker

[KamaAina]

23. You are allowed to ask two questions, and only two, about a service dog

One: "Is that a service dog?"

If the answer is Yes,

Two: "What does s/he do for you?"

That's it. All Mr. Schwartz has to do is say "Yes, that is a service dog", and "He helps me control my anxiety". End of story. Next stop, Dadeland Mall or wherever.

[AlienGirl]

30. For the second question, he could answer in even less specific terms

One needn't reveal exactly what disability is being helped by the animal. "Neurologic support" should be enough, without revealing whether the neurological disorder is epilepsy, narcolepsy, psychiatric condition, or whatever.

Unfortunately, even when the disabled person is completely in the right, sometimes someone just isn't gonna allow access no matter what: many people will refuse to believe that an invisible disability exists, that an animal can do anything other than guide a blind person, or that the disabled person isn't just making it up to feel special.

Tucker

[LeftyMom]

37. I think it depends on the location and local legal precedents.

I used to be a property manager, and we had a resident who had a dog that magically became a service animal when we reminded her that dogs were not allowed on the property, so I had to do quite a bit of research into the current precedents on this in CA.

What I was told by our lawyer and by the state arbitrator when we took the dog lady to court (there were issues besides the dog, the dog was kind of the last straw though, he was a constant barker and damaged the property) was that for a resident or applicant with a service animal we could ask for documentation that the animal was indeed a service animal (doctor's note, certificate from training, etc) and documentation that the animal was current on his/her vet care (shots, altered, whatever else the species in question needed) and that we could still infract/evict if the animal was disruptive to other tenants (ie loud, smelly, aggressive, loose on the property, etc) or destructive to the property (poo not picked up on the grounds, damage to carpets, offensive odor, etc.) I was also told that we could not ask for any description of the animal's duties that would result in the tenant/applicant/guest having to disclose their medical condition, but an incidental disclosure (such as receiving a certificate that said "Cody has completed seizure dog training May 3, 2005 National Seizure Dog Training Center" and thus figuring out that Cody's human has a seizure disorder) would be acceptable.

But the rules might well be different for landlord/tenant situations versus transportation, and of course FL is another freakin' planet so who knows what's allowable there.

[AlienGirl]

40. According to Delta Society, federal ADA rules take precedence over state rules

Owners *are* still legally responsible for their service animal's behavior, so an eviction based on disruptiveness or damage would be legal.

Many service animals, especially psych ones, are trained by their owner and don't have a certificate; in those cases documentation would be a doctor's recommendation.

Not to be too cynical, though, but most disabled people don't have the money it would take to bring a challenge to access to court, so it doesn't really matter: de jure a landlord or restaurant owner must allow access, but de facto there's no consequence if you don't.

Tucker

[No Elephants]

49. Some state laws do apply. Also the ADA provides for attorneys' fees.

That is the only money involved in suing. The disabled person is entitled to an injunction against future violations, but not money. Also, the disabled person can file a complaint with an appropriate agency at no cost to him or her. In this case, it would be the DOT. http://www.fta.dot.gov/civilrights/civil_rights_2360.html

[Regret My New Name]

44. Why is the latter needed information?

[No Elephants]

47. This website says something else.

http://sdog.danawheels.net/

What a business can and can not ask an A-Dog Team
When an Assistance Dog team enters a business, a business owner may ask the following questions if unsure the team is an Assistance Dog team.

1) Are you disabled?

You MAY NOT ask what a person's particular disability is. Many disabilities are invisible, and the person doesn't look disabled, or use any device (other than the dog), to indicate the person is disabled.

2) Is that an Assistance Dog? or Is that a Service Dog?

These questions are the ONLY questions you may ask a person entering a business with an Assistance Dog. Note, both answers MUST be yes, because a dog is NOT considered an Assistance Dog if they are with a non-disabled person.

Please be aware, however, that a disabled person is allowed to have someone bring their dog to them as a reasonable accomodation. For example, if the disabled person is in the hospital, and has a friend bring their dog to visit them, or bring the dog to them to stay in the hospital once they are able to care for the animal, OR the disabled person has enlisted the help of friends to care for the dog so that the dog may stay in the hospital with them.

The Department of Justice has released a document detailing common questions asked by businesses.


I think the only question should be "Is that YOUR service dog?" People without disabilities of any kind don't use service dogs. People should not have to say they are disabled all the time. It's frickin' obvious.

And nobody's anxiety is anyone's business. Some people are terribly embarrassed to have a mental or emotional disability, let alone announce it to a busload of strangers.

[WriteDown]

51. So I can take my dog on the train?

Just curious. I can always make something up. But I thought they were required to have some sort of Id.

[No Elephants]

54. Already asked and answered. Please see the responses to Reply # 5, especially Reply # 17.

;-)

[WriteDown]

56. See post 55! nt

[WriteDown]

55. Tomorrow we ride the train then!

Woohoo!!!!! I have a bit of a limp so that should be no problem!

[AlienGirl]

57. Thanks for making it more difficult for disabled people with service animals to get access!

The more often someone who isn't actually using a service animal takes advantage of the system, the more difficult it will be for the next epileptic with an animal who warns of impending seizures, or Deaf person with a hearing animal who lets her know if a fire alarm is going off, or Parkinson's patient whose dog has been trained to stop his legs from locking up, to get access to that same public place...because, ya know, the last guy whose disability wasn't blindness was just some scammer.

Jackass.

Tucker

[WriteDown]

58. How does my riding the train with a dog....

make it more difficult for others to do the same?

[TommyO]

59. Another day, and the dumb-fuckery continues

[WriteDown]

60. Choo choo! nt

[niyad]

62. remd I95

[Mariana]

65. I don't see the point of the second question.

Isn't a "yes" answer to the first quite enough?

[CreekDog]

25. When will they learn that if they aren't a doctor or asked to evaulate health conditions, not to ask

I remember when I worked at the Grand Canyon and we provided Golden Access passes to the disabled and some staff wanted to judge whether the person was eligible or not. Are they doctors? No.

Shortly after that happened, the word came down that we were not to grill people on their eligibility.

[sakabatou]

28. Sickening

[Malikshah]

35. It's Miami. Here in south Florida, it appears those in authority like to shit

on Veterans, LGBT (Jackson crime and Judge's OK of it), and the average citizen.

Wish I wasn't stuck here...

[Paulie]

39. Fresh Air on NPR did a story about Iraq veterans and service dogs

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112479819

[Regret My New Name]

42. People with such service dogs usually have papers or something, right?

Something saying that it is in fact a service dog, and not just someone saying it's a service dog????

[No Elephants]

52. Apparently not, or there would not be any need for any questions, yet the law

specifies which questions may be asked about a service dog.

[Oak2004]

68. Not necessarily

They will if they've been trained by any of the big-name schools, or if their owner has chosen to register them with a voluntary national registry. But there is such a shortfall in school-trained animals (and the cost is so prohibitive for us mostly poverty-level disabled) that many people are training their own animals. Owner trained service animals, though legally service animals, may have no papers at all.

[Regret My New Name]

69. They really should something about that then...

It may not totally eliminate situations such as this(true assholes will always exist), but it sure would reduce them. I mean, looking at it from the other side, I can see why someone might be hesitant to allow an animal in certain buildings or on a bus... Imagine if they let someone on with a dog(which appears fine), but because it doesn't get the proper training and screening, it attacks someone or something... I guarantee you that people would not only be up in arms about the owner, but also about the owner for allowing the animal in... I'm not saying the bus driver wasn't an asshole, he very well could be, but I can see how it would be a tough call if there isn't any documents.

[No Elephants]

53. Until I read this thread, I did not realize the RW, including the DU branch, is against the disabled

even if the disabled are Iraq War veterans. Once again, even their "support the troops" mantra is limited to those risking their lives at the moment. Once they come home, dead or diabled or in need of treatment or VA benefits, the veil comes off the fake patriotism fast, doesn't it?

The more one learns about the right, the more one understands how utterly repulsive they are.

[Cha]

61. Bless his heart..and good on him for

standing his ground..and, now looks what's going to happen bc of that..

All the Miami bus drivers are going to get educated on it.

[niyad]

63. think I will copy some of the info here--some people in this red, insensitive county

need an education. (actually, what they need are frontal lobotomies, and steel-toed safety shoes planted in their posteriors, but. . . )

[dysfunctional press]

64. i finally gave up my disabled parking placard because of all the grief i'd get from people...

a fucked up spine and constant pain isn't always visible to the naked eye.