Feds: Homes with Chinese drywall must be gutted

[supernova]

Source: WRAL.com

NEW ORLEANS — Thousands of U.S. homes tainted by Chinese drywall should be completely gutted, according to new guidelines released Friday by the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

The guidelines say electrical wiring, outlets, circuit breakers, fire alarm systems, carbon monoxide alarms, fire sprinklers, gas pipes and drywall need to be removed.

"We want families to tear it all out and rebuild the interior of their homes, and they need to start this to get their lives started all over again," said Inez Tenenbaum, chairwoman of the commission, the federal agency charged with making sure consumer products are safe.

About 3,000 homeowners, mostly in Florida, Virginia, Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana, have reported problems with the Chinese-made drywall, which was imported in large quantities during the housing boom and after a string of Gulf Coast hurricanes.

Read more: http://www.wral.com/business/story/7349953/

---

As if having an upside down mortgage wasn't enough.

I have an older home but I have remodeling projects in the works and I have become super paranoid about sourcing materials.

[DJ13]

1. "We want families to tear it all out and rebuild...."

Wheres the builder's responsibility in this?

[cutlassmama]

2. Where is China's responsibility in this? They send hazardous products

over here all the time, why aren't THEY made to reimburse us or send non-hazardous products? Why do we (U.S.) continue to buy ANYTHING from them at all?

[supernova]

4. That's what I'd like to know

[DesertFlower]

38. exactly what i was going to say.

i'd rather pay more for something and have it made here.

[Old Time Pagan]

62. Under normal circumstances I completely agree with you but

there was a profound shortage of drywall at that time so the real issue was whether projects were able to stay on time and budget.

Hindsight is always a risky thing, at the time there was no reason to believe that imported drywall could possibly cause the problems that are now found throughout the south.

Perhaps a little more government oversight over materials imported could prevent future occurrences. Couple that with more domestic production of materials and something like this shouldn't happen again.

I wish we would spend more effort helping our people when things like this happen than blowing up people in other countries. But of course I've always been a bit unrealistic.

[Lost4words]

87. Isn't drywall from China basically compressed coal ash!

vs gypsum. I dont know I could be wrong.

Because of the drop off in demand several New Mexico drywall producers have cut production big time. There is no shortage of gypsum and I suspect that there Was a Price incentive with the China product as well. Nothing motovites like fat profits.

what a world this is

[jmowreader]

91. These days EVERYONE makes drywall from fly ash

Fly ash is not a terrible product as long as you clean it to remove the sulfides, which the Chinese don't do.

[Old Time Pagan]

94. You're forgetting when this happened

it was after a very terrible hurricane season when almost all building supplies were in short supply. Coupled to the insane housing bubble it was difficult to get enough material to complete jobs.

Now that the economy has imploded and housing starts are way off many building material producers are cutting production but back then builders were facing a very different situation.

As I said, hindsight is a risky thing

And of course you're quite right, the get rich quick without working meme currently in place in our country is the major cause of many of these sorts of problems.

[DJ13]

5. Theres a protocol to follow in this kind of situation

The home builder pays to rebuild, then files a lawsuit for reimbursement from the suppliers.

You cant jump straight to the suppliers for compensation, they didnt have a contract with the home buyers.

[flvegan]

11. Problem is, in Florida half those builders are either in bankruptcy

or out of business altogether.

[DJ13]

15. At that point suing the wholesaler is the only option

[blue97keet]

6. Would banning anything toxic from China be a "non-tariff trade barrier"

according to the almighty WTO?:puke:

[tburnsten]

92. We banned imports from a Chinese company, Norinco, in the mid nineties

I don't know that the WTO would ever care about that though, because they were a firearms manufacturer. Made a 1911 clone with unusually high quality steel, so they were darlings of the custom shop crowd. They also made a variant of the M1A/semi-only M14 that didn't cost nearly as much as Springfield charges for theirs, which they have been having lots of QC issues with.

[michreject]

96. That was the late 80's

Signed by GHWB. I have a 89 Norinco AK.

[tburnsten]

97. My bad on the date

It was a little before my entry to recreational shooting. Had a pretty sweet Norinco SKS, Type M maybe? The one that used detachable magazines instead of the fixed ones. Ran perfectly with those ridiculously heavy AK magazines. Got stolen while I was at Basic. Pissed me off a bit.

[tburnsten]

103. On second glance, I'm not sure I was wrong

Wikipedia (the holy grail of knowledge, I know) thinks it was a 1993 executive order signed by Clinton during the renewal of China's Most Favored Nation status with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norincous.

[michreject]

104. Interesting.

Wiki states that it was Clinton that signed the ban but it was the 89 import ban signed by bush the 1st. Maybe Clinton expanded it.

http://www.nytimes.com/1989/07/08/us/import-ban-on-assault-rifles-becomes-permanent.html?pagewanted=1

[tburnsten]

111. The restrictions signed by Bush 41 was the 922(r) import ban

Which is fairly toothless and just means you have to have "x" number of American made parts on certain imported firearms if modified, so say you get a Romanian WASR-10, all good unless you add something to it, then you must make sure it is 922(r) compliant.

At least that is the way I understand it, very few of our firearms-related laws make any sense at all.

[zonkers]

No kidding!

[JDPriestly]

45. Remember all that propaganda about tort reform?

Corporations do not like our laws concerning products liability. They don't like having to pay damages when they cause suffering to their customers.

They avoid the risk of products liability lawsuits by buying or producing products in China for sale here.

This is one of a number of costs that corporations can avoid by outsourcing and producing in other countries.

We need a new trade policy on manufacturers and producers of products in all countries, among other things, imposes on manufacturers and producers of products in all countries responsibility for the safety of the products they place on the market.

[glinda]

67. Right. Fist killing our pets, then the whole family. China is slowly killing us all way around.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

63. who was actually monitoring goods coming into the US?

[One_Life_To_Give]

112. The Buyer/Purchaser

For building products there is additional follow-up by the Authority Having Jurisdiction (i.e. Local Building Code Inspector).
Otherwise the deal is between the
A) Manufacturer (Possibly went out of business/changed ownership since. Seems to happen frequently with places manufacturing substandard/non-compliant/counterfeit products)
B) Purchaser
c) Middlemen if applicable (great variability in how differing firms deal with trying to ensure product quality/avoid risks of Gray Market etc)

[Turbineguy]

77. It's free-market forces in action.

You buy some bad shit that you are told is safe. You get sick. You figure out why. You travel back in time...

[Threedifferentones]

81. Why do American companies continue to outsource labor there?

Why do American retailers continue to pressure Chinese partners to make cheaper and not better products?

The Chinese make their own nuclear submarines. The Chinese designed and built an Earth launched rocket that shot down a satellite orbiting around the Earth at tens of thousands of mph.

Chinese people can make quality products, but rich American businesses continue to ask them to produce cheaper and not better.

[snake in the grass]

83. We owe them so much money that...

...no one wants to piss them off. There have been no consequences for all the things they've done and as long as we keep borrowing from them, this will not change.

[marshall]

100. China's economy is based in part on supplying substandard and hazardous products

When I was in Vietnam folks were scared of any food, especially fresh food like milk, that came from China.

And the worst insult you could do, at least as a foreigner, was to give somebody a gift that said "Made in China". They looked at it like it was ticking time bomb.

[NashVegas]

108. China Is Merely Doing What Wall St. Asks

[salguine]

28. I think what we ought to do with Congress is tear it all out and rebuild.

[DesertFlower]

39. great idea. nt

[Golden Raisin]

42. And fumigate.

[TommyO]

32. The builders, if they haven't already, will declare bankruptcy and escape their responsibility.

[CountAllVotes]

3. and who pays for all of this?

the homeowner I take it. :grr:

They should be suing China (is this even possible) for making and selling this toxic crap!

:kick:

[Psephos]

33. Do you own a mirror? n/t

[EFerrari]

7. Thanks to DU, we didn't buy this cr@P when we renovated a few years ago.

I feel badly for anyone who has to go through that. :(

[KittyWampus]

8. HUGE amount of stress having that work done to begin with. But then to do it twice?

YIKES!

[Bette Noir]

9. Your sig line is strangely relevant to this topic,

but I think The Lord is booked up for the next couple of years, and isn't taking on any new contracts.

[KittyWampus]

18. ah, the signature refers to Universal Principals. Want something built to last, do it right the

first time. :)

[EFerrari]

54. Seriously. That would be horrible.

[Richardo]

10. Fuckers

I'd throw some heavy heavy sanctions on the importers/US partners of those scumbag producers until they start insisting on some product safety/quality. And oh yeah, they'd be paying for all the refits, too.

[OhioChick]

12. Agree 100% n/t

[Xenotime]

13. This is a product of capitalism. Sell the people anything cheap for high profits

[Ron Green]

19. And yet we'll see right-wing talking points about products from "Communist China,"

just like Lou Dobbs during the lead-in-the-toys scandal.

[havocmom]

21. Yep, and blaming China is ignoring the root problem

When US corps wanna be so greedy they will take anything corps based in China will sell on the cheap...

the problem is not China. The problem is international corporations that do not answer to national laws. They run the world and our laws, regulations, safeguards will ALWAYS just be so much window dressing now.

[Psephos]

34. Why didn't retail buyers purchase US-made drywall?

They had the choice to do so.

Seems to me those buyers share the greedy label with the corps.

[TheMadMonk]

41. 1) Because most of them were trade, not retail, buyers. nt

[Psephos]

44. The Wikipedia article on this is worth reading.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Chinese_drywall_controversy

[jmowreader]

43. Simple: It was not there.

All the Chinese drywall came into the country at a time when two forces collided: the hurricanes in the Gulf states, and the building boom. There flat out was no drywall to be had. Home Depot, at least the part of it I was working for, wasn't importing drywall and we'd go weeks with no drywall. When I got a shipment, I had a list of customers who'd paid for their board; sometimes we wouldn't even bring it inside. We'd just put it into delivery bundles, stick it on the truck as fast as we could and take it to jobsites. The drywall guy would have to come at 1 am so we could bundle it up and prep it for delivery before the store opened and people started asking "but you have 1800 sheets of drywall out back, will you sell me 150 sheets of it?" Well, no because I already sold all of it three weeks ago.

A drywall factory can make a certain amount of drywall. When they're at capacity, there ain't no mo.

And as for "greed," forget it. At the time I was selling drywall for $17 per 4 x 8 x 1/2" sheet. IIRC the Chinese stuff was going for $19 a sheet (understand: for the Chinese, US-standard sizes are special order items because metric drywall is different sizes) and there was significant breakage, so in reality the usable ones cost $20-$21 per sheet.

Normally I agree: you import from China because you're a cheap bastard. With the Chinese drywall, there are other reasons.

Also note: as soon as the supply of American drywall stabilized, Chinese drywall disappeared from the US market completely. No one wanted it.

[Psephos]

46. thanks, good info n/t

[bhikkhu]

23. Exactly; contaminated toys, corrosive drywall, whatever

as long as its cheap and makes a profit. When I hear people say how they get the best value for their dollar buying cheap-labor imports at the big-box mega-chains, this is what I think of.

Another reason to buy local when you can, good stuff from people who know the difference and actually give a damn.

[Taverner]

30. Yes.....

[DesertFlower]

40. many of the homes in florida

are high end homes. i've seen pictures of some of them. you save your whole life to have a really nice home and then you can't even live in it.

[pundaint]

14. TARIFS TARIFS TARIFS, We could make drywall if we tried.

[jmowreader]

50. What do you mean, "could" make drywall?

ALL the drywall currently on the US market is US-sourced. It's produced in an automated process and the materials cost next to nothing.

Here's the thing about Chinese sourcing of drywall. I did a real simple web search and found out it costs around $5000 to ship a 40-foot isotainer (there's a special container used to ship sheet goods, and it's 40' long) from China to the US. Let's assume that's to the Port of Long Beach, and it costs $7500 to ship a container to the Port of Savannah. In the container are 20 lifts of 4x8 drywall, or 680 sheets. This means you'll spend $7.35 per sheet to ship drywall to Long Beach and $11.03 per sheet to ship it to Savannah. At this time it costs about $6.95 per sheet to buy 4 x 8 x 1/2" drywall from Home Depot. If they're getting the board free from the Chinese, transporting it from the Chinese board plant to the Port of Shenzhen for free, stevedoring the container for free at both ends, transporting it from the port to the user for free, and making no profit on it (all together now: yeah, RIGHT!) Chinese board would still be more expensive than American board.

Chinese drywall was a clear desperation move.

[eppur_se_muova]

16. Link to class action lawsuit:

www.defective-chinese-drywall-lawsuit.com

[eppur_se_muova]

17. Has the source of the strontium sulfide ever been identified?

I posted an entry about this some time back, but googling for further news seems to find only further citations of sources I already have.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/eppur_se_muova/64

[Gin]

20. heard on local news wiring also has to be replaced....this is huge

here in Hampton Roads and one of the contractors/suppliers has gone bankrupt....will be interesting to see what happens and I feel for these people

[jmowreader]

53. Does Chinese coal contain a lot of strontium? If so, there's your answer

The root cause of the problem is the way drywall is made. There is a product on the market called fly ash--it's one of the two ashes produced when you burn coal. Now, this is neat shit: it's little ceramic bubbles made from silicon dioxide and calcium oxide. If you clean it to remove all the contaminants--mostly sulfides, but there's other products like arsenic, cadmium, chromium, manganese, mercury, strontium and thallium among the more nasty contaminants--you get a really great admixture that's useful for things like lightening concrete and drywall without reducing its strength or, in the case of drywall, its fire rating. ALL drywall, no matter where it's made, contains fly ash for this very reason.

The Chinese don't clean their fly ash, which means the drywall you get from them is full of sulfur compounds and heavy metals.

[Stephanie]

74. You need to write an article about this.

Combine your posts above and flesh it out into an article on this subject, please.

[eppur_se_muova]

86. That I don't know, but it seems likely.

I didn't know that about fly ash. That could very well be relevant. If the Chinese mfgrs switched from untreated to treated fly ash sometime in the 2006-2009 period, that would be convincing evidence that it's the fly ash that is the source.

See my earlier comments about SrSO4 in gypsum; if present in coal, one might expect these reactions to proceed quite handily:

If the heat is sufficient, this may result in the reduction of sulfate to sulfide:

SrSO4 + 2C --> SrS + 2CO2

As it turns out this is analogous to a reaction used to recover Ba from from BaSO4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium#Occurrence_and_production

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/eppur_se_muova/64

[jmowreader]

98. Strontium is present in coal

The question is, are Chinese coals extraordinarily rich in it?

[eppur_se_muova]

99. I haven't had any luck finding that info ... Chinese drywall contains both Sr and S, but ...

it is never made clear whether they are introduced through the coal ash, or the gypsum. Here is perhaps the clearest summary I have read yet (though dated):

Another problem, according to Williams, is that "Chinese drywall has a filler that contains concentrated heavy metals from a coal source. Analytical chemists are evaluating the filler and possible coal sources are coal mining wastes and/or coal fly ash. These heavy metals are toxic and when inhaled can concentrate in the body. Strontium is one of the concentrated heavy metals."

"Strontium is believed to be responsible for the release of the sulfurous gas emissions. The most commonly detected sulfur compounds that are emitted include: carbon disulfide, sulfur dioxide, and hydrogen sulfide. The concentration of strontium is two-10 times greater in Chinese drywall samples that have been tested by our analytical chemist than in US drywall," added Williams. "US drywall is free of sulfur compounds and does not emit these gases."

Besides the CPSC, which has been named as the lead US federal agency for this investigation, the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is also active, working with both the CPSC and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (CDC-ATSDR). According to an EPA analysis conducted earlier this year at the request of the CDC-ATSDR, "sulfur was detected at 83 parts per millions (ppm) and 119 ppm in the Chinese drywall samples. Sulfur was not detected in the four US-manufactured drywall samples ... Strontium was detected at 2,570 ppm and 2,670 ppm in the Chinese drywall samples. Strontium was detected in the US-manufactured drywall at 244 ppm to 1,130 ppm."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_Business/KF24Cb01.html

It is worth bearing in mind that Sr is a "congener" of Ca, that is, it falls in the same column of the Periodic Table and so Sr compounds have solubility properties very similar to Ca compounds; thus, the presence of some Sr in the gypsum (CaSO4.2H2O) is basically inevitable, and a certain baseline level of Sr will always be found, even in USA-made drywall. A possible explanation of the data cited in the quote is that Sr in Chinese drywall is introduced through *both* gypsum and coal ash, but that it is only in coal ash that it is in the form of the sulfide, not the sulfate. (Barium sulfide would have the same effect, but I haven't seen any mention of Ba so far.) Thus the Chinese drywall made from untreated coal ash is high in SrS (source of H2S) and also SrSO4(benign). Sulfur levels are much lower in Chinese drywall made in 2005-6, so perhaps the Chinese mfgrs have stopped using untreated fly ash.

I see you've posted a new OP re fly ash; this response was written after reading that OP. I now feel that it is the *untreated* fly ash which is the most likely culprit. While China may be blessed with an unusual wealth of strontium minerals, untreated fly ash contains many toxic heavy metals, and should never have been used in the first place. The strontium sulfide story may turn out to be an unexpected consequence that alerted the rest of the world to a dangerous manufacturing practice permitted only in China.

[eppur_se_muova]

85. Another clearinghouse for status updates: CPSC Website

http://www.cpsc.gov/info/drywall/index.html

I've scanned a couple of the documents there. It seems the possibility of a bacterial source for the H2S looks increasingly unlikely. Still trying to find any more recent info on SrS contamination.

ETA: data from this paper ( http://www.cpsc.gov/info/drywall/chamber0310.pdf ) suggest that H2S is by far the most abundant sulfur-containing gas, with DMS and MeSH being present at as little as ~1/100 that level. However, there seems to be a ubiquitous "baseline" level of DMS. Some good news: Chinese drywall mfgd in 2009 does not seem to have the same problem as that mfgd in 2005-6. So the process may have changed already.

ETA: And yet another study disagrees (*sigh*) ... http://usbuildingevaluations.com/documents/Chinese-Drywall-In-Depth-Study.pdf

[glinda]

68. Yada yada. Am still waiting on the Class-action Petfood Lawsuit.

[caseymoz]

22. Corrodes wiring, ducts, computers and doornobs . . . .

. . . . and may have health effects too.

I'm beginning to understand. As we put our toxic garbage on barges and ship it to poor countries, China is putting their pollutants into products and shipping it to us, and we accept it in the name of free trade.

There's too much irony to this.

[WinkyDink]

27. The REAL irony would be if we were illegally invaded.

[nolabear]

24. OMFG. How much?

First being treated like dogs, then being given toxic trailers, then being told you're just looking for a handout when all you want is justice, then being virtually forgotten and now this. How bloody much has to happen before New Orleans and all the areas devastated by Katrina and the breakdown of the levees get some attention and care? It breaks my heart to say it, but I think it'll happen when hell runs cold. What a terrible abuse of a unique, wonderful, vital area.

[lib2DaBone]

25. Ummm..maybe we should stop all our manufacturing going to China?

Oh... so sorry.. I forgot.. that would take balls and leadership...

[WinkyDink]

26. Will the Federal Govt PAY for these repairs? NO? Then GMA*B here.

[salguine]

29. Please tell me what GMA*B is. I have severe acronym fatigue.

[WinkyDink]

58. Give Me A &*%&^# Break.

[alp227]

31. China should pay for new homes for those affected. n/t

[Gin]

35. just heard the drywall in hampton roads was made by a company

owned by the Chinese government...gonna be real interesting..meanwhile the folks with the problem had t move to other places and still make their mortgage payments....bad situation...and lots of homes don't even know they have this crap in their walls.

Dragas builders are fixing the problems themselves...kudos to them

[Jkid]

36. In the long run the federal government may have to tell the homeowners...

...that "it's your problem". If so, they might as well tell them to move out if the feds are not willing to pay for the tear-down and rebuilding.

[glinda]

69. If we have Chinese drywall I am going to abandon our home.

[jdp349]

37. I don't think tariffs are the solution

This shouldn't be an excuse to rally the foolish around protectionism so we can establish low skill labor intensive industries in the US.

"Southern members of Congress have sought to make it easier to sue Chinese manufacturers and to get the Federal Emergency Management Agency to help homeowners pay for costs not covered by insurance. They also say the U.S. needs to pressure the Chinese government, which allegedly ran some of the companies that made defective drywall."

This seems reasonable to me. The reason this is happening is because US consumers have no recourse or means to sue Chinese manufacturers for dangerous and faulty products. It's no surprise Chinese manufacturers operating under the profit motive try and pull a fast one like this. If the Chinese resist then I fully support strategically placing tariffs in order to raise revenue to compensate victims. We'd be completely justified and the WTO would certainly agree.

[blue97keet]

48. To hell with the WTO when it comes to consumer recourse.

Who needs the additional complication of having no means to sue? No recourse no sale in the first place.

[j420norcal]

47. The steel in the new eastern span of the Bay Bridge

was manufactured in China. I can't wait to drive over it, really I can't.

[CoffeeCat]

49. We have Masonite siding...we're screwed too...ENOUGH!

You're lucky if you've never heard about the defective, cheap
Masonite siding that is literally crumbling around homeowners.

I live in an upper-mid class suburb and I know at least thirty
homeowners who are in the process of spending 20k-30k to replace
their siding, because it is literally crumbling in front of their
eyes. One of my friends can stand outside and put her hand through
her outside wall into her dining room. These are nice 3,000-4,000
square-foot homes. People are screwed.

Our home has Masonite too and we're caulking and painting this summer,
in an attempt to somehow save it--or at least prolong the life of this
cheap stuff.

The company has admitted that it is junk and defective. There was
a class-action. Everyone I know who joined the suit has reaped
a whopping $200. Party, party!

These construction companies built homes with this cheap stuff and made
billions. Now, our houses are crumbling.

Next chapter in this saga...Our Pella Windows are rotting. The casing
around the window is defective and moisture gets inside. I can't even
open my eight-year old daughter's window anymore. If I do, it hangs down
and looks like it's going to fall off. I have frost on the inside of my
windows in the winter and mold is growing around the frames due to constant
moisture buildup. Pella says tough luck--even though they've admitted
that they're defective.

When does this nonsense end? When do homeowners stop paying through the
nose because builders and manufacturers are making cheap, defective products?

[jmowreader]

56. Here's the sickest part of the whole thing

Go to work at a Home Depot in the South. Make sure you get assigned to the lumber department. People will come in and ask for Masonite siding to put on new construction. I know a contractor (I won't name names, but he doesn't do small jobs) who built a development of twenty-five $350,000-plus homes and sided every fucking one of them with Masonite. Not vinyl, fiber-cement, cedar, or anything else that makes sense, but MASONITE! I went through one of those places. For three hundred and fifty bills you should get a house that exudes quality. That fucking house should have 2x6 studs in the perimeter walls (this lets you put R-19 insulation in the walls, which saves you big bucks on A/C costs), fiberglass exterior doors, either Jeld-Wen or Andersen windows, top-shelf hardwood flooring, an immense water heater...not this asshole. Masonite siding, 20-year shingles (he had to special order these, and they were nearly as expensive as the in-stock 25-year ones), the cheapest vinyl windows we had, cheap laminate flooring, steel entry doors, the cheapest 40-gallon water heater they make...he even tried building a deck out of untreated lumber but the inspector made him tear it down and told him not to try it again. Where he spent his money was on the countertop in the kitchen. It was granite...but open the cabinet and what do I smell? The aroma of particle board. What the hell? Is this man fucking insane? Not really because dumbasses bought all 25 homes.

[Digit]

61. Not to mention many builders don't bother with sizing when wallpapering

Try to remove that crappy wallpaper when the wall hasn't been prepared properly.
You will be hanging new sheet rock over top of it.

I can't tell you how many builders do this...it was horrifying.

[MattBaggins]

105. You said should have had 2x6 construction

Was it 2x4? I can't even fathom why 2x4 construction is allowed at all particularly for outer or load bearing walls.

Idiots actually by the shit as well. We should also hold the inspectors feet to the fire. You hire someone to inspect a house before you purchase it and they don't point out this crap?

[Digit]

59. As a Realtor (specifically a buyer's agent)...

I pointed out the problems with Masonite especially when it came to resale homes.
It is no more than termite food in my opinion, but oddly enough in the MLS they call it hardboard. Yeah, right!
Most homeowners do not maintain it correctly and around most nail holes you can see the blistering where the water has infiltrated.

Oh and yes, I have seen those homes with the rotting wood around the windows and the homes were only 5 years old or so. I don't know what in the hell they use on the outside railings either to cause it to rot within 5 years. Small screwdrivers come in handy sometimes....

I can say with a clear conscience that none of the people I represented purchased crap like that and I taught them how to recognize poor quality and hope they will pass it on.

I never managed to get many listings...sellers mostly wanted my help in hiding problems even over the smallest of issues. There are just some things you must do to sell a home...as they will come up on the inspection report.

Oh well, what can you do....my ethics are more important than a friggin commission.

[jmowreader]

70. They call it hardboard because that's what it is

Go to either Home Depot or Lowe's and ask for a sheet of masonite. The sign above it will say "tempered hardboard."

They can't call Masonite siding "masonite siding" because the Masonite Company--yes, there is one--didn't make all of it. It was made by Boise Cascade, Weyerhaeuser, Temple, Louisiana-Pacific, Forestex, Masonite, Georgia-Pacific, Evanite, Mac Millian Bjoedel and Collins Products. Because it was ALWAYS called hardboard siding, it continues to be referred to as such.

[Digit]

71. It just gives the connotation that it is real SOLID wood...

which it is not exactly.
Not like a plank of wood cut directly from a tree, that is.

The public when seeing a listing in the MLS stating "hardboard" gets the wrong idea as to what this material is. Most of my clients were moving here from the north and had never heard of such a thing.
No, I don't have it on my own home...thank goodness.

[jmowreader]

72. It does give that impression, true...

but what is one to do? "Hardboard" is its actual name.

I had one contractor customer who put plywood siding on everything including houses. I finally asked the guy why he didn't try Hardipanel, especially on residential construction. "I don't like it because it's too hard to drive nails through." I knew the guy had a roofing nailer, mainly because I sold it to him, so I told him you can nail the stuff up with a roofing nailer. "You can DO that?" Yup...it's right on the installation instructions, they recommend using a roofing nailer to put it up.

[jobangles]

60. Lets Back Away From Globalization & Laissez Faire

Laissez faire has opened the door for in your face capitalism,
and it has brought this country to the brink of collapse.  As
long as we the majority of Americans allow the importation of
foreign made goods into the US we can expect to see a
downsizing of our lifestyle.  When America companies using
foreign manufacturing sites and cheap slave labor can no
longer bring those goods into the country, they will either
look to dump their goods else where or they will come
scrambling back to the world's biggest market for all goods. 

We need a big, and I mean really big, national program to get
Congress to set high import tariffs on any and all goods not
made in America by Americans. A boycott of all known products
that is not made in this country by Americans should have an
enormous effect on the greedsters.  Buying only what is
absolutely necessary will go along way to get their attention.
We will not get our country back without effort and some pain
as well.  Either it is worth the effort or it is not. Either
it is a shared economy or it needs to be dumped for a system
that cares about human welfare.  The choice really is ours to
make.   

[patrice]

65. Nailed It! Trade policy is one of the biggest things causing our problems! Maybe

as Unions become stronger, they will organize around this issue. Trade is something that affects Unions in such a fundamental way.

At minimum, this is an issue for vetting all candidates and being very persistent and vocal about.

[patrice]

66. There's nothing truly free about Laissez Faire Capitalism anyway.

Inequities create advantages which build systemic inertia which perpetuate inequities which produce advantages etc. etc. until the whole thing self-destructs because mediocrities are conserved and nothing is reality based.

It isn't as though a whole lot of regulations would be any better, but that what we need is to recognize the reality of what so-called LF Capitalism is (it isn't free for all and it isn't open) and we shouldn't let others get away with characterizing it as somekind of panacea.

This is also germane to corporate tax issues. TeaPartyers and such bitch about how corporations SHOULD be taxed less, as though corporations were somekind of independent economic force unto themselves, which we have enslaved and which would serve all if left completely to their own will, but corporations, or at least the ones we have, would not exist at all if they had not received tax favoritism from the start. If they had to pay truly Free Market rates for the resources that they need and use, they'd be much different, smaller, and many even non-existent, than the corporations TeaPartyers say should be taxed less. What we have are corporations grown fat on the government tit and mewling and puking now for more of what is ultimately OUR blood, sweat, and tears. Corporations don't exist for us; we exist for them.

It's time that Labor be regarded as Adam Smith said, a Real Value. Money is not a value on parity with Labor. Money is abstract. Labor is concrete. Money is private digits processed in private processes managed by private computers. Its value is whatever its owners say it is.

Labor produces real goods and services. It is what changes the world, adds real value, not money. Humans should receive Real Value in exchange for the Real Value of their Labor. What good capitalist would invest something of Real Value (their Labor) and accept only something of arbitrary ambiguous value in exchange, like money?

Real Value for Real Value, American labor would be guaranteed a complete and appropriate Education, comprehensive, lifelong Health Care, and a SANE national defense apparatus (not one gobbling up almost 50% or all federal revenues for decades past and to come ((and that doesn't even count the money spent on DOE Weapons programs, a.k.a. Nuclear Weapons, and all kinds of Black Ops that No One ever knows about, but which most certainly have been up and running for generations))). Real Value for Real Value would also include Trade Policies that benefit American workers more than they benefit the Chinese.

[Quantess]

93. Welcome to DU!

[Dappleganger]

113. Excellent post, worth of its own thread.

And welcome to DU!!

[elehhhhna]

80. you talking about hardiplank?

[jmowreader]

102. Hardiplank is fiber cement

If you have some really cheap-ass furniture, like a Sauder desk, go look at the drawer bottoms. The weird pressboard crap they use is popularly called Masonite. It is made by putting sawdust of very resinous species of wood in a mold, inserting the mold in a hydraulic press, and squeezing it until it surrenders.

Now imagine siding your house with that.

Now, even worse, imagine someone with 30 years experience in the building materials business thought it was a good idea to do that.

[MattBaggins]

106. Sawdust? I swear the crap on the side of my house is more like

shredded cardboard at best.

[jmowreader]

114. It LOOKS like cardboard, but it's made out of sawdust

I sold enough of that shit I can tell you exactly what's in it. And it ain't pretty: it's just friggin' sap laden sawdust. No fillers. No glue or nothing. Just sawdust.

If it was medium density fiberboard siding (or better for performance, high density fiberboard but you can't drive nails into THAT shit so probably not) they could use polyurethane glue in it and at least have some modicum of weatherproof performance, but Masonite? No.

[Haole Girl]

51. Seems the USA is not getting the "good end" with cheap Chinese goods

:-(

[troubledamerican]

52. Feds: House of Lies built with "Cheney's drywall" OK even if toxic to survival of Constitution

[HuckleB]

55. Drywall sucks. PLASTER!

[jmowreader]

57. I'd agree, but there's a problem...

There are a LOT of places where there aren't any plasterers. In the areas where they are, they are expensive laborers.

[HuckleB]

64. That's probably true.

I forget about that issue, I guess, since I'm lucky enough to have grown up with a father who built custom homes. I kind of had to learn a lot of the skills.

[patrice]

73. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be plasterers there.

If they had access to what they need in exchange for learning and then making their skills available to others: comprehensive and complete Education and Health Care for them and their families. Real Values in exchange for Real Value.

[Lost4words]

76. its more expensive than drywall, I in NM we have gypsum all over!

and more time consuming = higher cost for homes.

[patrice]

79. Do you see any straw-bale houses down there?

It's so dry there they should do well, but I think that technology never took hold very well. The straw is usually covered with a stucco of somesort, inside and out, maybe that plastic stucco?

There's also a hemp house that is poured out of a hemp slurry, don't know how it's finished on the inside, supposed to be extremely durable and light.

[Lost4words]

88. they dont look much different from the outside, really. You forgot the used tires!

I guess it comes down to Thick walls insulate better than thin walls. There are many homes out here that are 100% off the grid, now that is cool! :toast:

[jmowreader]

101. That's not going to work in the plastering trade

Plastering is an art form. If there's no one in the area--say, Fayettenam, where I am--who knows how to plaster, you won't have any new plasterers. This isn't something you can learn on your own.

Now...on the other hand...if the Operative Plasterers and Cement Masons Union were to decide "we need more plasterers in North Carolina!" and boxed up fifty master plasterers to send here as trainers, we could possibly have plasterers here. Those guys aren't going to send trainers to a Right to Work state. And if they did, they'd be up against drywallers who could rock an 8x12 room in one day for $200.

[Lost4words]

75. When PROFIT is THE only consideration, this happens every time.

Firestone's killer tires, two different times for those who remember. Melamine in food products, lead paint. They steel our intellectual properties with no repercussions. And it took the concerted effort of Republican and Democrats and or course the ones who really control the country the uber rich to hoist this travesty upon the working class of our Nation. When I was young people complained about the products from Japan. At least Japan produced quality, China produces quick profits junk, no doubt the result of American businessmen who set it all up.

WHEN PROFIT BECOMES GOD,....

THE PROFITEERS BECOME GODLESS,..... Nothing is more true today

There was a law long ago that stated that as Blacks were not Christan, (Godless), they were also not really human so it was OK under God to own them..

If the power elite is truly Godless as they do not accept God, then under God we are permitted to own them.

So I suggest we all go out and get us a slave or two(CEOs make the best slaves but you really have to break them in), once thats done they will be happy wit a warm place to eat and fornicate.

Dont spare the cat-o-nine tails.

Profit without the concern for humanity is blaspheme!


God save our nation!

[scentopine]

78. Free trade and deregulation! And the neo-libs still shout - long live the "free" market!

They should put a tax on wall street trader salary and bonus money, but the cash in escrow and pay for every fucking house that needs to be rebuilt. No doubt the free marketeers will say the homeowners should have known better.

[fascisthunter]

82. In the end, deregulation becomes more expensive to everyone

this is why right wingers and libertarians are so wrong... how they can ignore the consequences just tells me they don't want to be a part of society and due to their anti-social POV they are irresponsible as business men and women. Like a bunch of spoiled children who want to bake the cake and eat it at the same time.

[omega minimo]

84. "How's that NAFTA SHAFTA workin' for yew?"

[tranche]

89. What exactly does NAFTA have to do with imports from China?

[omega minimo]

90. "What exactly does NAFTA have to do with imports from China?"

:banghead:

[Lost4words]

110. We've got real drywall in New Mexico! Lots and Lots of it!

Gods own gypsum its all over the damn place. But those east coast builders saw a way to increase <guess what> PROFITS! There was no real shortage of materials to produce quality drywall made from gypsum rather than the Chinese compressed coal ash drywall.

If I bought a house full of that poison I would be some kind of angry.

[Odin2005]

95. Free Trade is so wonderful, innit?

I love being poisoned by drywall! :sarcasm:

[Romulox]

107. Dimes to doughnuts the taxpayer gets the bill for this. nt

[Lost4words]

109. And how will they get the cash to do a full gutting!

this country doesn't care for her people until election time then its Promise Promise Broken Promise!