UK students taught how to chop off hands: BBC

[panzerfaust]

Source: Sydney Morning Herald (Oz)

Pupils at Islamic schools across Britain are being taught how to chop off a criminal's hand and that Jews are conspiring to take over the world, a BBC investigation has found.

Up to 5000 pupils aged between six and 18 are being taught Sharia law punishments using "weekend-school" text-books which claim those who do not believe in Islam will be subjected to "hellfire" in death...

... "The specified punishment of the thief is cutting off his right hand at the wrist. Then it is cauterised to prevent him from bleeding to death," it added.

Young pupils are warned that the punishment for engaging in homosexual acts is death by stoning, burning with fire or throwing off a cliff and that the "main goal" of the Jews is to "have control over the world and its resources."


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/uk-students-taught-how-to-chop-off-hands-bbc-20101122-183fc.html

---

It is so heartwarming to see that the Religious Values current in the Twelfth Century are alive and well in the 21st

[SkyDaddy7]

1. AHH YES...I share your warm & fuzzy feeling about Religion in the 21st Century!

What makes me laugh is to see the Religious Right point to stuff like this and say "Look how barbaric those Muslims are!" when I know if they could they would be doing the same thing just in a different way! The scary part is the Religious Right want a theocracy in the USA so that they can force everyone to live by the evils of Evangelical Christianity. If they were in full control who really thinks they would not be violent toward atheist, agnostics, Liberal Christians, & especially homosexuals! They would literally go "BIBLICAL" on anyone who did not submit to their Bronze Age view of the world!

[BigD_95]

2. dont put Christians on the same level as these wack jobs

trust me Im against the Religious Right in a major way but they take it to a whole new level.

[greiner3]

5. What's that Shakespaerian quote?

The lady doth protest too much"

[SkyDaddy7]

6. That was my point...

If the Religious Right were to get their way & our secular laws are replaced with Christian based laws then to act as if they would not begin to act more & more radical is ignoring 2000 yrs of history!

Of course the Religious Right in America is not near as bad as these people RIGHT NOW because we have safeguards in place...However, remove the principal of separation of church & state & see where we are 20 years down the road! It will get nasty it always does when religion is allowed to set the laws. Name on theocracy past or present where society flourished & human rights abuses where not central to how they enforce laws? I might be wrong & I will admit it if shown the evidence.

[alfredo]

56. Religion is not compatible with democracy. So far we've

prevented them from changing our form of government, but they won't give up. They thought they could gain control of our government by taking control of the GOP, but it didn't work out as they planned. They ended up being played. "Here's a piece of candy. Now run along, We'll call you next election cycle."

[Creative]

63. Actually, when this county was first settled, there was no separation

of church and state. And it was that way for more than 20 years.

Many settlers were driven to come here so that they could practice their faith without fear of government intervention.

[alfredo]

30. Read up on the political Dominionist and their beliefs.

They have a hold on the Republican party. They are the ones railing against pluralism, tolerance, and social justice.

[SkyDaddy7]

51. Very True! nt.

[Dash87]

45. The religious right just lacks any power.

The US keeps them in check. They may influence politics, but the ultra-fundamentalist Christians are kept in check by a system that functions well. Never underestimate the hatred of the ultra-religious right. :)

[SkyDaddy7]

52. Evangelical Christians have enormous power...

The Bush Administration pack the judicial system with Evangelical Christians, the Air Force Academy is run by Evangelicals, the entire military is become extremely religious, the SCOTUS is geared to overturn Roe v Wade, the public school systems are being overrun by Evagelicals especially here in the south where they are defying the law & teaching creationism and/or not teaching evolution, big bang or climate change, Evangelicals are preaching politics on Sundays in the church just daring the FEDs to step in...I could go on & on!

PLEASE do not think the Evangelical Christians in this country to do not have any power...That is how they have got the power they have! So many Americans "claim" to be Christian & basically turn a blind eye to what is going on because they think "what can it hurt".

[TalkingDog]

55. You mean like

David Koresh
Jim Jones
Eric Randolph

those kind of religious wack jobs? The kind that rape kids, kill all their followers or blow up innocent people?

give me a freakin' break.

[leftynyc]

3. Bullshit

Don't try and change the subject (as so many on this site do when it's pointed out there are parts of Islam that are barbaric). Unless you can link to where any elected offical has asked for biblical penalties to crimes, you're speaking out of your ass.

[SkyDaddy7]

7. Read what i said again...

We have secualr laws in place that have prevented the Religious Right from going "Biblical"...However, just this past election we heard candidates mention bringing back sodomy laws so that homosexuals could be jailed. If you think the Religious Right if allowed to set our laws that America would not begin to look more & more like that of the middle east then I think you are ignoring history! I would love to read about any theocracy past or present in which society flourished & human rights were not abused on a wide scale as a means of keeping society pure in the eyes of their god.

I simply do not trust the religious right like you do. I see them as a powder keg that could easily explode given the chance as did the founding fathers. I could be wrong we could become a Evangelical Christian Theocracy & our society would see new highs understanding, tolerance & compassion like never before...There are always 1st for everything!

[Demstud]

8. Nonsense

Elected officials and evangelical Christians are constantly trying to bring down the barriers separating church and state, which would eventually lead to biblical punishments for crime (which we've had before when Christians have had more control in this country). Hell, biblical justification is the main reason we have a death penalty and unequal treatment of homosexuals in our laws today. Biblical justification was used in slavery, the murder of "witches", and genocide of the natives of this land. That poster is not speaking out of his/her ass, but pointing out the reality that this kind of barbarism is not uniquely Islamic, as we've had similar things occur in our country. Luckily, the way our nation is set up, these kind of things are usually correctable within the law (though not without considerable effort), and give us power to fight back against these kinds of injustices when they occur. We're a flexible democracy rather than a theocracy.

[progressoid]

13. Elected officials?

The OP is talking about religious/educational leaders.

[leftynyc]

22. Uh - who makes our laws?

I wasn't answering the OP. This "our religious freaks are just like them" is the same bullshit that comes across these pages every time there is something about Islam and it's nothing but unadulterated bullshit. NOBODY who actually makes our laws, even those seriously running for that privledge, has ever said anything about cutting hands of thieves or stoning adulterers - the comparison is nothing but lazy thinking.

[progressoid]

29. Gotcha.

Sorry, thought you were responding to the OP.

However...from you name, I can guess you are from NYC. Sadly, out here in the sticks there actually are a lot of people that would like to use the book of Leviticus to rule this country. One of them (candidate for Governor) just headed a campaign to successfully oust three of our state Supreme Court Justices because they violated God's law (letting teh gays marry). And he recently came the defense of churches that endorse candidates from the pulpit.

http://iowaindependent.com/44985/vander-plaats-rallies-to-defense-of-church-facing-irs-investigation

[leftynyc]

31. My sympathies

I'm sure Iowa has it's good points but holy cow, that's royally fucked up. But christians have a very long way to go before things like cutting the hands off thieves and stoning will be able to overcome our founding document. Penalties for gay sex has already been ruled on (by a somewhat conservative court) and I suspect gay marriage will get the same treatment. Then they'll need an amendment and that's simply not going to happen.

My biggest objection is that everytime somebody posts something that casts a negative light on islam, everyone runs over to change the story to "our people are just as fucked up". They don't comment on the OP at all and just try changing the subject - it's childish and shows an intellectual bankruptcy when you can't argue something on the merits.

[Kali]

34. they also rarely use terms like ni**er, but that doesn't mean they don't think it

if you really believe there aren't people in office or trying to get there and in other high up policy making positions that feel biblical laws and old testament "punishments" should be implemented you are VERY mistaken.

[leftynyc]

36. Give me names

Otherwise you're spouting bullshit. Just one name - one elected official who wants biblical penalties for broken laws. What they think really isn't the issue here.

[Kali]

14. uh

don't know much about the history of xtianity do you?

[leftynyc]

23. More than you apparently

They already went through their Dark Ages - let me know when Islam does the same.

[Kali]

26. broad statement for a very large group of people

your prejudice is showing

[leftynyc]

32. And what exactly am I

pre judging?

[arcticken]

24. Try and stay in the here and NOW!

This is happening NOW. If you can pinpoint concurrent practices by Christians do so or don't try and sidetrack the issue at hand.

[Kali]

27. while not as blatantly violent (in most cases*), the control of women and their reproductive tracts

have caused a fair amount of misery suffering and even death in the here and NOW!

how is that for ya?



*ignoring bombing of womens' clinics and domestic violence from religious indoctrination

[Nuclear Unicorn]

60. So these schools in the OP lop off hands but allow free access to abortion?

:shrug:

[Kali]

61. huh?

schools lop off hands? but allow access to abortion?

sorry don't get your question or point? Didn't see anything about schools lopping off hands - they were teaching about it - and who knows from the bias of the reporting if they were just teaching history or actual moral imperatives. No clue what you are saying about them allowing abortion - I was talking about what some xtians in this country do recently or currently.

[The Doctor.]

28. They will not reveal their true feelings in an environment that disdains intolerance.

If you truly believe that the Dominionists who have had people in power, who continue to have ambitions to power, and who have actually stated that they would like to see Old Testament law supplant the Constitution will never sink to the same level as the radical Muslims, you might be a titch naïve.

Look at judge Roy Moore, for example. Thinks 'practicing homosexuals' should be executed.

Do some research. You'll find that the only real difference between radical Muslims and radical Christians is environment.

[Kali]

33. a lot of christians seem perfectly able to see extremists in their own religion

as being somehow different from them, but can't seem to see that the extremists in other religions are different than the mainstream of those religions. why is that?

[KansDem]

37. "Going BIBLICAL"

:rofl:

I'm constantly amazed how those who follow the Christian myth want us to return to the 10 Commandments, claiming we are a Christian nation.

Bullshit!

The laws we have on the books regarding lying, stealing, and murder might correspond to the 6, 8, and 9 Commandments, but these were observed in civilizations before Greece and Rome. I highly recommend this book:

Civilization Before Greece and Rome

The other 7 Commandments are a list of dos and don'ts for worshiping another guy's God, or a wish list of how teens should treat adults and how you should avoid craving another guy's wife and possessions.

And for those folks who don't think if, given half a chance, the religiously insane wouldn't turn this country into a complete Christian theocracy, ask them to explain the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem with trials, or KKK lynchings. Oh, and don't forget the conservative Mormons in western Texas who are marrying and planking 12-year-old girls.

As the bumper sticker says, "Keep your religion out of my government."

[rasputin1952]

40. Actually, there are 11 Commandments if you want to include...

Christianity into the mix, the 11th being given by Jesus, "Love thy brother as yourself".

What the so called christians are following, is a bastardization of the religion as was intended. The point is, people have cherry picked the Bible for their own nefarious purposes, (I believe this to be true of all religion btw, the Torah and Koran are not automatically exempt from being misused to assault people on numerous levels).

A close reading of the Judaic, Muslim and Christian is necessary for understanding how things have gotten out of hand and misused. For instance, the original of "thou shalt not kill" is actually, "thou shalt not murder". Hefty difference there, as murder is quite different from killing is one protecting their own life, one is premeditated, the other is defensive action. Another thing is that the "eye for an eye" has become somewhat the norm for those that profess they know what they are talking about, but these are limits not decrees. If one loses an eye, they cannot demand that the offender responsible lose two eyes. There is also the most basic of true tenants, forgiveness, which brings about exoneration for the offender and offended. Thing about forgiveness though, it is total, once given, one cannot go back and hold the previous offense against the offender.

We live in an age where people are remarkably ignorant when it comes to religion, any religion. And those that would prefer harming another for some perceived slight are taking it to extremes. I wonder how hypocrisy would be dealt with for those who would harm others in the name of a god, any god? I wonder if those who "preach" such aberrations would feel if someone of the same temperament but opposing belief would go to the extreme of cutting out of their tongues?

Bottom line is, a religion, any religion, should not be uses as a sledgehammer against others.

[KansDem]

46. "We live in an age where people are remarkably ignorant when it comes to religion, any religion"

Pew Poll

I find this poll highly informative. It seems that atheists/agnostics are not as ignorant about religion as those who follow it.

[rasputin1952]

49. That is because one must evaluate situations before making a decision...

regardless of the religion, or lack there of, people tend to move to the darker aspects of humanity as a "quick fix" for problems they encounter. Take the "chopping off of a hand" situation mentioned above, it cannot be called a "deterrent" obviously people steal, so that doesn't work. What else can it be but an "identifier" of anti-social behavior or perhaps some kind of "vengeance" thing?

In situations like this, what I see is that 71.9% of atheists/agnostics got the majority of answers wrong. By extension, 79.5% of Jews picked the "wrong" answer; 79.7% of Mormons answered the questions incorrectly...etc.

No one in any of the groups above should be talking about religion, they are apparently pretty ignorant...at least the majority of them are in every instance.

I also find it hard to extrapolate any meaning behind a research poll like this w/o seeing and answering it in my own right. I need to take this thing and see the justification for the results...bad questions will produce bad results.

On edit: I took the quiz, w/o looking at the previous respones/expalations...my results:

You answered 15 out of 15 questions correctly
for a score of 100%.

Your responses on the quiz do NOT affect the U.S. Religious Knowledge Survey's results.



Kind of interesting...:D

The 15 question quiz is here: http://features.pewforum.org/quiz/us-religious-knowledge/index.php?

[SkyDaddy7]

50. Excellent Comment! +1000 nt.

[and-justice-for-all]

39. They are a reflection of one another...

no matter how much one from side A says they are from side B, the virus of religion remains the same.

[The Straight Story]

58. I think you have christians mixed up with jews. Jews were for stoning and killing

Jesus was not.

[SkyDaddy7]

59. Not sure where the "stoning & killing" came from...

However, when it comes to Jesus he is not the "all peaceful" dude he is made out to be...That is if we are to believe the Bible. Jesus made it very clear that "God's Law" was still in full effect! And that would be the the Jewish law you claimed Jesus was no part of. Maybe Jesus did not participate & there was an example of him talking folks out of stoning a woman however, Jesus was very clear about upholding "God's Law" which does endorse mandate "stoning & killing"...After all Jesus FAILED on the most important issue he could have spoke out against SLAVERY! BTW- Was one the major reasons I knew as teenager the man Jesus was just that a MAN nothing more. No Deity with the so-called characteristics believers give him could have allowed such an institution like slavery to continue without AT LEAST speaking against it...He basically endorsed slavery. FAIL! Jesus & the writers of the Bible had no clue slavery was bad because it was just the normal thing back then proving Jesus was MAN nothing more and the Bible was not inspired by an all knowing all loving god. Many more problems but not going into them.

[Ramonez]

4. Sounds like propaganda

to me.

[Demstud]

9. Why?

The OP's thread headline is misleading, but the report itself was pretty specific about what organization was teaching these things, how many were being taught, and so on like I would expect any legit news report to be. And having been in Christian Sunday schools before, it doesn't sound too out of place for a private religious school to be teaching these kind of things on the weekends.

[slackmaster]

41. Could be, but that doesn't necessarily mean the story isn't true

:hi:

[Ozymanithrax]

10. Religious schools teaching intolerance, bigotry, racism, and violence?

I mean, who knew?

[Raster]

12. !!!

[mudplanet]

11. Just change two words and one number

Up to 50,000,000 pupils aged between six and 18 are being taught Christian law punishments using "weekend-school" text-books which claim those who do not believe in Evangelical Christianity will be subjected to "hellfire" in death...

[BigD_95]

15. The problem is Christians arent doing this now

and if "they could they would " is just theory and complete bullshit. I believe yea there would be some radical Christians but the majority of Christians and majority of Americans would never let this happen.

But These crazy ass people are doing this right now! Thats the story !!! Dont start bringing up Christians would do the same thing to change the story. People need to get a clue and realize there are Radical Islamic people and a lot of them. Their religion believes this crap as a whole. Even most of the leaders talk about this stuff. Hell in schools their being taught this crap. There isnt any Christian schools teaching this crap. but let me guess. If they could they would

[mbperrin]

16. Every Christian denomination I know - Catholic, Baptist, Church of Christ,

Lutheran, and more, teaches that you will burn in hell if you don't perform the act of faith and or baptism required by their sect. This is Sunday school and morning worship as well.

Not much point in belonging to something that won't get your special people special treatment, is there?

Otherwise, people might get the idea that believing what you want in the privacy of your own home without the need to flock together in groupthink surroundings is okay.

The horror! (The end of tithing, for sure.)

[Autumn Colors]

17. Some gays in Uganda would beg to differ (nt)

[JCMach1]

57. +1

[awoke_in_2003]

18. "would never let this happen"...

just like the majority of americans wouldn't allow secret wire tappings, unwarranted search and seizures, or groping of the genitals in the name of security.

[Tempest]

21. Have him ask Dr. Tiller's family if they would never let this happen. n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

35. no shit...

people are blind they do not see what is coming down the pike. Separation of church and state are going to disappear forever- and the Supreme Court will make it so. It isn't who writes the laws, it is who interprets them.

[Righteous9]

19. 1,536,015 muslims in England according to the 2001 census(according to wiki)

You wouldn't call 5,000 students and a handful of radical educators a Radical faction of Islam in the western world? I'm guessing you would be quick to disassociate any radical Christian movements from mainstream Christian values, but have a harder time making that distinction with followers of this other religion.

Granted, people come down hard on Christianity, and religion in general, which is not seeing the forest for the trees any more than Christians who think that somehow they've caught up with Jesus' teachings now, finally, and that the religion itself is inherantly good. The real point is that where you have a power base, really shitty people will make use of it, and they will take it as far as they can. That Christianity is predominantly a western religion where people generally have a decent standard of living, where people have something to lose, is why it is not more radical.

Still, it is and has been associated with the tea party in a big way, and the GOP and its voter base consistantly, and was invoked on more than one occasion to frame the war in Iraq. Our "Crusade", bushe's paraphrase, "you are either with us or you are with the terrorists..." etc. If it wasn't a "Christian" war, it certainly rode on a veiled message of American's/christians being God's soldiers of good. Now hundreds of thousands of people are dead.

As Jon Stewart said, and maybe he got it from somebody else, religion is like an atom, split it one way, you get nuclear power, split it another and you get a bomb. Religion itself is not the culprite precisely, though many of us worry that what makes it so volatile a tool is that it does not rely on fact, but on faith. People and their level of education and their level of comfort and safety does matter, and you can witness the difference in western Islam from its counterpart in some parts of the middle east, though I dare say that even over there it's not uniformly vile.

[Tempest]

20. Watch the documentary "Jesus Camp"

And then come back and tell us the evangelical Christians in this country are not doing much the same thing.

[struggle4progress]

25. Saudi school lessons in UK concern government (BBC)

... BBC Panorama found that more than 40 Saudi Students' Schools and Clubs are teaching the official Saudi national curriculum to about 5,000 pupils.

One text book shows how the hands and feet of thieves are chopped off.

The Saudi government said it had no official ties to the part-time schools and clubs and did not endorse them.

However, a building in west London where Panorama obtained one of the text books is owned by the Saudi government ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11799713

[and-justice-for-all]

38. Hurdeling ever fast toward a global Theocracy....

just fucking great.

[woo me with science]

42. Here we go again.

"Christians are just as bad!"

"No they're not!"

"Yes they are!"

"No they're not!"

"Yes they are!"

"No they're not!"

Frankly, the fights about Olive Garden are a lot more interesting.

[totodeinhere]

43. Why is it that every time we get a thread about this sort of thing some posters immediately change

the subject to Christianity? And we get nary a word of condemnation about the OP if it involves Muslim extremists. Look, if you come across a Christian religious school that is teaching it's students how to chop off hands, then by all means let's talk about it. But in the mean time, let's talk about what extremist Muslim schools are teaching as pointed out by the OP.

I am sick and tired of people who want to give Muslim extremists a free pass while constantly bashing Christians.

[slackmaster]

47. It's called Red Herring, a fallacy of distraction

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

[woo me with science]

48. Yes,

and it gets very old.

[Quantess]

65. Some people don't seem to know what else to say.

Whenever an example of Muslim fundamental barbarism comes up, of course you have to mention Christianity, right? Right?

Some people can't not mention Christianity. It's like an automatic reaction.

[Dash87]

44. Time to "chop off" this school's funding,

and ability to teach children. :)

[alp227]

53. Some of these elements sound soooo familiar.

Jewish global conspiracy? Killing gays? Not unfamiliar here. But amputations...ick. FUCK RELIGION

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bragi]

62. "British Schools, Islamic Rules" on YouTube

This is the BBC panorama feature report that triggered the controversy. (In 2 parts)

Panorama: British Schools, Islamic Rules (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQhki5RGLGs

Panorama: British Schools, Islamic Rules (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHwF6pXqubU

[Turborama]

64. Thanks, I'm going to watch them now

Care to swap?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-guardian-investigation

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-uncovered