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CShine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 12:43 PM
Original message
Teen wants vote for 14-year-olds
One small step for Berkeley teenager Robert Reynolds. One giant leap for teenage-kind. If the politically active Berkeley High junior gets what he wants, teens will soon be stepping up to the ballot box and casting votes just like responsible adults across the nation.

Robert, 17, was part of a youth delegation that lobbied the California Legislature last month to adopt a bill that would award the franchise, or at least a fraction of it, to citizens who've reached the ripe old age of 14.

"Right now, we have no say and are ignored by politicians, but once we do have a say politicians will have to take us more seriously,'' said Robert, who wore a tie to Sacramento rather than Berkeley tie-dye.

<snip>

One of his most-trusted arguments for teenages' suffrage -- which he used before the Legislature -- is that they contribute to the state economy because many of them hold down jobs and pay income tax and virtually all of them pay sales tax.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/06/07/BAGL471TIS1.DTL
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eyesroll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. I voted for the white-tailed deer at 5...
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. mmmmmmmmmmm, white-tailed deer and crappie
Now I'm getting hungry!
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Give them the vote and make them eligible for the draft
Suits me just fine. Hell, why not make the cutoff age 10? Or six?

:evilgrin:
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Comicstripper Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Teen Voting?
I am a very politically aware teenager. As much as I would love to vote, I know first-hand just how dumb kids my age are, and letting them vote would be the equivalent of letting apes own firearms.
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ZR2 Donating Member (345 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. letting apes own firearms
AKA the NRA.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Adult Voting?
I'm a very politically aware adult. I know first-hand just how dumb adults my age are, and letting them vote would be the equivalent of letting apes own firearms.

Intelligence, political muster, political awareness should be NO concern for free voting.

If teenagers hold jobs and pay taxes, then their needs should be represented. They are as much of a tax-base as any adult. Teens buy and own cars and pay property taxes on them as well.

Many elected representatives feel the only "needs" of teenagers that they must address deals with High School. Well, teenagers are alot more than highschoolers, especially when they work, consume, buy, spend, and are taxed just like 'regular' americans.

I suppose you think that the 'dumb' teenagers you know now will suddenly turn into bright, forward thinking, perfectly intellectual individuals the minute they turn 18, right? That at 12:00:01 on their 18th birthday, some magical "politically astute" faerie comes down and enriches all of their minds with wonderful political understanding and fairness and bipartisanship?

Hardly.
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Almost all teens live with their parents and do not have to support family
Along with the environmental immaturity, most are not physically mature either--especially at fourteen.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. what does physical maturity
Edited on Mon Jun-07-04 01:10 PM by Heddi
have to do with voting for what they believe are their best interests?

Yes, the majority of teenagers live at home. Well, I happen to know alot of 19 and 23 year olds who live at home too and support nothing but their weed and beer habits---yet they're allowed to vote.

If kids aren't allowed to vote, but they're allowed to work a job (where they're taxed the same as any other adult---there's no special "teenager tax rate"), if they're allowed to buy cars (which they are, and which is taxed in states where there is property tax on cars), they have to register their cars, pay the state for tabs and such, pay insurance----why does the government feel "okay" with letting teenagers be this HUGE tax base (summer jobs, anyone?) without giving one whit to the teenagers needs?

Isn't that kind of like taxation without representation?

Why not make the legal age to get a job the same age to vote? Either lower voting to 15 or whatever, or raise the age one can start working to 18.

Or, don't tax kids who work, or who buy cars, or who have to license their cars----I don't think you can have it both ways

On Edit:

There are alot of adults who have no responsibilty. Look at Paris Hilton---what does she do? Who does she support besides a legion of personal aides and maids?

To say that kids don't support a family is akin to saying that one isn't an adult unless a family is supported, which is just like the argument that gays shouldn't marry since the SOLE purpose of marriage is to procreate and raise children (Which raises the argument whether heterosexuals who marry and don't have children have a 'valid' marriage as well)
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I would wager a majority of 19-23 year-olds do not live with their parents
Physical maturity is tied to mental maturity--there are always exceptions, but the mental faculties of your average fourteen year-old are not anywhere near as capable as your average 18 year-old.

Kids that buy a car will not be able to afford the insurance, or likely even the car, by themselves. Odds are the parents have a rather big hand in this. The jobs kids are able to work alongside school are not going to give them much in terms of income, and therefore they will scarcely be taxed at all.

Children are not adults, and while there is no clear-cut age when one 'becomes' an adult, the answer is not to lower the age until all exceptions are incldued. If we did such things, we would next be lowering the age to ten. It's really too bad that teenagers who are politically aware and mentally mature don't get a chance to vote, and I would gladly trade some adults who don't care about their sufferage for those teens, but realistically an age limit is the only way to work it.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. But I guess I also look at it like this:
in SC, the age to work is 16. The DAY I turned 16 I got my first job, and two weeks later I got my first paycheck which was heavily taxed. I was taxed at the same rate that adults working the same amount of hours and getting the same pay were taxed.

But I had no say in ANYTHING involving my life. Couldn't vote, couldn't sign up for the military---I was just a cash-cow for the tax base during the time that I worked. The number of kids who got jobs in the summer was STAGGERING, and all of us worked way over 40 hours a week (even though legally we weren't supposed to---we were 16, wanted $$ and had countless hours to work for low-pay during the summer).

I guess I feel that if 15, 16, and 17 year olds can work, then 1) If they are taxed, they should be allowed to vote or 2) Don't tax them and keep the voting age til 18.

I just don't see a point in saying "well, they're not making alot of money, and they probably can't afford insurance on a car" as some argument as to why someone of that age can't vote----but you realize that increasing number of American adults don't make alot of money---hardly more than I used to make as a 16 year old putting ketchup on hamburgers for $4.25 an hour. Alot of adults can't afford a car, much less insurance.

Immaturity, I don't believe, is a compelling reason why someone can't vote. If a 16 year old is competent enough to work a job, to buy a car, to register that car, to drive that car; compitent enough to take higher-level school courses, competent enough (in some states) to attend college at the same time as high-school, then why isn't that 16 year old competent enough to pull the lever in a voting booth?

I fear there are just as many immature people at 40 as there are at 14, and that 18 isn't this magical age where everything starts making sense and a drooling, unintellectual person who's 17 years and 364 days old is suddenly a contender for the Nobel Prize in Economics one day later.

I'm not saying that anyone of any age should have the right to vote. Equally, not everyone at every age should be able to drive a car, or work a job, or be given a life-sentence in jail. However, I see relatively little difference between a 16 year old and an 18 year old as far as intellectual capability or burden to society, and I do think that 14 is a bit young to vote, but why not 16? Why this magical age of 18 which gives you ALMOST adulthood (meaning, die for your country, but NO BEER!).....
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. As I pointed out above, I agree with you that there's no 'magic age'
And there are many at older ages who would not be very able to match wits with a clever 18 year-old. 16 I could live with, maybe, but remembering how inattentive I was to politics and current events in general at 16, I am a little apprehensive about what such a voting block of disconnected callow folks could do. Working two part time jobs and making grades in school, I did not have any time to keep up on politics, and I had no inclination to, as social events took up the rest of my time. Perhaps only those who really cared would vote? It's a prickly issue, and I don't know the answer to it.
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Comicstripper Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. You make a good point, Heddi
But I just don't think the first female president ought to be Brittany Spears.
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jaded_old_cynic Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Yes well....
I don't think that the governor of California should be AAAhnold either. So adults can be just as moronic in their voting.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. And just to clarify
I don't think we disagree on the item, per se, I'm just looking at it the way that I imagine i'd look at it were I 16 again....oh...if I were only 16 again...sigh

:)

But you do bring up good points, and it is a sticky issue. Thanks for bringing up good points for me to raise with my friends when we undoubtedly discuss this conversation in the near future :)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. If having a job and paying taxes is the test,
... then we should totally abolish the INS and any public laws regarding citizenship. Every person in the country on a work visa or green card would be given the entitlement to vote in US elections. That would be one more large step toward more corporatocracy - having voting rights attached to employment.

No job? No health care.
No job? No vote.

Keep it up and plantation politics will be complete.
Keep pickin' that cotton.
Aspire to be a sharecropper.

:puke:
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Though a corporation cannot vote,
they can donate to campaigns. Perhaps donation should be restricted to citizens? Can a corporation become a citizen? Corporations are supposed to pay taxes, but. . . .

Since politicians mainly listen to the voter at election time, and since obscene corporate donations seem to morph around any laws designed to limit their ability to do so, perhaps we should have continual elections.

Presidential elections every 6 months?

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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. That's not the point I was trying to make
Maybe I just didn't express it clearly---but certainly I don't think that voting should be tied to gainful employment any more than voting should be tied to whitness, or 'patriotism' or any other 'qualifier'.

I guess the point I was trying to make is that if the state says that if you earn money and you will be taxed on that money, whether or not you DO earn money or not, then you should be allowed to vote.

Equally with people who are in the US who are not natural-born citizens. I strongly feel that if the government can withohold taxes from your income, then you have a right to expect certain things from your government in return.

Many 15 and 16 and 17 year olds work. For the most part (low hours and falling below the tax-bracket excluded), all working 15, 16, and 17 year olds are taxed the same as 18-101 year olds are.

Now, an 18 year old doesn't have to work to vote. By age, they're given that right.

However, shouldn't a 16 year old who works 20 hours a week and pays taxes be afforded SOMETHING by the government? Some SAY in the people that are being elected to raise/lower their taxes? their benefits? their educations?

What I'm saying is that if the state says that you CAN work (whether you do or not, whether you're able to or not), and that by working, you will pay taxes, then you should be allowed to vote just on that fact alone-----the idea that should certain circumstances be met that your income can be taxed.

Hell---one need not even work to pay taxes. Buy a car, and pay property tax/luxury tax on it depending on where you live. I know many 17 year olds who have bought a car with their babysitting money and had to pay taxes on it---yet they're not allowed to vote in public referendums for what their tax money will be used for, or who will use it, or under what circumstances....

I know I'm not making myself clear, but I hope i'm clear in saying that I don't think ANY qualifier should be put on people so that they CANNOT vote---age, income, work-habits, occupation, race, creed, sex, religion, etc.

I just wish that everyone had equal representation, including minors who are ABLE to work legally (note that I didn't say who DO work legally, or who do work at all).

The last thing this country needs is for MORE voting rights to be taken away from MORE people.

And no, I don't think that being a felon should bar you from voting in any way, shape, or form. Being a felon certainly doesn't disqualify one from being a politician, does it? :)
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. So, the Olson twins should've been able to vote when they were 1 year old?
Edited on Mon Jun-07-04 05:08 PM by TahitiNut
:eyes: They were able to work, as demonstrated by the fact they did work. Legally. With compensation levels that many can only dream of.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. oh. I guess I didn't think of that....
hmm...so I guess ixnay that idea of mine (it sounded good until you threw in the Olson twin card...if it weren't for you medling kids....ha ha)

I believe another poster made a comment that if the law would allow you, at your age, to be tried as an adult, then you should be granted the right to vote. I said kind of the same thing in another post---that if you commit a crime, and you're 8 years old, and the state says "well, sonny, you do an adult thing like that, and we're going to treat you like an adult" and say LEGALLY that the 8 year old can, and will, be tried as an adult, then I think that "adulthood" should transcend more than just the legal system.

(and I know this is getting off subject, but I'm on my lunch break, so please bear with me :) )

If, according to the law, and the judge, and the prosecutor, an 8 year old has the werewithall to have adult knowledge of reasoning, morality, right, and wrong with regards to CRIME and can be tried as an adult because of a crime committed, then it's only LOGICAL to assume that the 8 year old ALSO has the werewithall to have adult knowledge of reasonng, morality, right, and wrong with regards to ALL aspects of life.

If an 8 year old can be tried as an adult, and face an adult sentence, then that 8 year old (not ALL 8 year olds, just the one who was declared an adult in the eyes of the judge) should be able to rent porn, have sex with anyone over the age of consent, drive a car, drink a beer, buy cigarettes, get married, vote, enlist in the military----

If they're "adults" in one sense of the word, then they're adults in ALL sense of the word.

I guess if a kid is 'adult' enough to commit a crime as an 'adult' and to be tried as an 'adult' and face the sentence that an 'adult' would face, if that child was found innocent of the charges against him/her, why, then, on the day that trial ends and johnny goes back to 3rd grade, is he suddenly a 'kid' again------I was under the impression that maturity and such didn't wane back and forth....

Why is that kid an 'adult' when they're in handcuffs and sitting in front of a jury (note: NOT a jury of his/her peers, btw), but once they're free, oh they're a kid. No smokes for you, sonny! Get back to fourth-grade math.

Sorry for the diversion. You bring up a good point, but I hope you see the point that I was trying to make---I just feel that if you're taxed, then you should have some say in your representation. Shit----Imean, as many numbskull 17 year olds there are out there, there's alot of kids who work hard, who study hard, who are adults in every way except age, and I think they should be heard too besides a pat on the head and a "there there, sonny.....just pay your taxes and be ignored" ....I guess not much different than an adult after all
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Yup. The whole point being that people must attain majority at some point
The age of majority varies widely. The Judeo-Christian traditions employ multiples of 7 ... 7 (age of reasoning), 14 (age of puberty/adolescence), 21 (age of majority), 28 (???), 35 (age of Presidential eligibility).

Then we wanted 'em young for cannon fodder. (Largely because they're more easily indoctrinated into an authoritarian subculture if they've just gotten out of one: parents.)

Then came the "drink/die" fallacy.
Then came the "drink/die/vote" fallacy.
And all the time we have the felony behavior fallacy.

The latter fallacy is grounded on the now-almost-exclusive presumption that our "criminal justice system" is solely about punishment and has nothing to do whatsoever with rehabilitation, training, development, penance, or any of the rest of those "squishy" notions.

Most of the "logic" in such discussions is tail-wagging-dog stuff, imho. While the "right" to have a just say in one's own governance is, I believe, a human right, voting is an entitlement. Our contemporary sense of fairness and inclusion says all sane adults should be enfranchised. But for the majority of this nation's history it was not so. Slaves, women, people who don't own real property, felons, foreign-born -- all have been denied this entitlement. I shed no tears that a 14-year-old is unable to vote. None. Nada. Not even a moist eye. The behavior of the majority of 14-year-olds shows almost no sense of responsible behavior. Consumerism isn't any kind of litmus test, not in my book.


I've worked since before I was 14 when I could get a work permit. During my entire time in high school and college, I held full-time jobs in the summer and at least part-time jobs during the school year. (The only exception was during my 2 years at the USCGA where that was strictly prohibited - and impossible.)
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AtTheEndOfTheDay Donating Member (454 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. I'm in my 40s
And kids my age are really dumb too. Maybe firearm toting apes would make a better electorate.
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St. Jarvitude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
36. Amen to that.
Half of the kids at my school are media brainwashed zombies who march in step with the jackboots. The other 45% are slightly better, in that they don't know any more about politics than differential equations. The 5% remaining are people who understand politics, study the issues, and have stances on them. Some are to the left, some to the right, others in the middle - I don't really care, as long as they're not totally brainwashed like half of the kids here. And no, not every conservative is a zombie - many of my friends are true conservatives who puke at the actions of the Ray-Gun neocons (like Shrub)
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. Only if 14 year olds aren't given special treatment by the law as minors.
And I'm in favor of them keeping that special treatment, so no way.
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Heddi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Not too many 14 year old are given special
treatment by the law anymore. Wasn't that kid in Florida 12 years old when he was tried as an adult for the accidental killing of his friend?

What about those two kids---they were brothers, and I think one was 12 and the other was 9, I believe, who murderd their father at the behest of a family friend. They were tried as adults and will spend the rest of their lives in jail.

Fuck 'em. If a 9 year old is considered an adult in the eyes of the law as far as justice is concerned, then that 9 year old should also be afforded EVERY OTHER RIGHT as an adult: The right to vote, to drive, to get married, to buy alcohol and cigarettes......

That is one thing that pisses me off about charging children as adults----if they're "adult" enough in one situation (the courts), then why aren't they "adult" enough in every other situation? If the judge says a 9 year old is "adult" enough for one situation, that 9 year old is adult enough to rent porn, buy liquor, get married, and have sex with anyone over the legal age in that state.

But of course, that would be nearing logic, and people who think 9 year olds are mentally identical to adults have proven that they don't understand logic.
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Seeking Serenity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
57. But they are, outside of the criminal justice system
According to DH the attorney, 14-year-olds cannot be drafted, they cannot be required to abide by contracts they sign (a contract signed by a minor is voidable by the minor, unless he decides to retain the bargained for consideration, then it is binding), they are generally not held accountable for their torts (the parents are).

Rights and responsibilities are part and parcel. Teenagers don't have all of the responsibilities, so they shouldn't have all of the rights.

If this Berkeley kid wants to play a role in polictics, there are many ways he can. Voting just shouldn't be one of them. While this kid may well be very astute and knowledgeable and aware, too many teens are not. We have enough problems with adults who are not astute and aware and knowledgeable (who cast their votes for *), we don't need to add more fuel to this volatile mix.

Just my $0.02.
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
8. Tony Blair is up to giving UK 16 year olds the vote.
He's on public record about that, I don't know about New Labour though.

There was a strange 1960's movie about youth taking over the US called "Wild in the Streets" where a fictional rock band led by Max Frost doses Congress with LSD and gets political control-lol.

Eventually Max Frost faced political unrest from the younger Americans, who's cry in the movie was "14 or FIGHT!"LOL.

Maybe 16 should be considered here, too.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
12. I'd say 16 would be a more reasonable age...
And only if they didn't drop out of HS.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. 14-year-old Legal Adults?
Edited on Mon Jun-07-04 01:35 PM by SimpleTrend
I think this is an issue about which deeper thought needs to be encouraged. Both sides make good points. I seem to recall something about primitive human's development, that by the age of 12 or 13, all survival skills had been passed to the child, and the young adult then went off into the wild, either to die, or survive.

One big problem with HS today is the lack of fair compensation after school for those of only high-school level education. Supposedly, child labor was restricted a century back or so, when the government expressed outrage at child-labor abuses in city factories. 1938 was when the Fair Labor Standards act was implemented. Today, with the pay scale differences in college educated versus high school only graduates, the data suggests that HS graduates are never compensated fairly at any point in their lives for the time they spent in intellectual labor in grades K-12.

Only if college is completed does average pay exceed Living Wage levels.

That parents under most state laws are legally required to care for their children and be financially responsible for them up until the age of 18 would most certainly need to be revisited if 14-year-old voters became a reality.

How would 14-year-old "legal adults" affect pregnancy and population growth?
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. Though I believe 14 is too young,
Edited on Mon Jun-07-04 01:23 PM by GoddessOfGuinness
I strongly feel that any citizen who is required to file income tax returns should be able to vote.
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Comicstripper Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Taxes
Good point. I assume you're not saying that should be the only criteria, though, right?
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Not the only criteria for voting, no...
A person needs to demonstrate an understanding of how our government works. When we elect candidates, we're essentially acting as personnel directors for our nation's highest offices. That privilege requires a degree of maturity that the average 14 year old has not yet acquired. For that matter, some people in their 40s aren't mature enough to vote responsibly.

I think we should be able to pass a basic citizenship test in order to vote. But I doubt it'll happen as long as politicians can capitalize on public ignorance.

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Comicstripper Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. Voting Test?
That's very much reminiscent of the poll tax and literacy test hurdles that blacks had to jump over in order to vote in the South for the longest time. It would still qualify as discrimination, and there's no way it would be accepted by the public. Sure we want informed voters, but that idea simply isn't practical, or moral for that matter.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. It needn't be
But I understand your concern and the fears that it would generate among voters who have suffered discrimination at the voting booth.

If a voting card is reward for passing Citizenship as a required high school course, it might even inspire young people to help each other become informed.
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Comicstripper Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Goddess
You bring up a number of good points. As I've said, I'm a teen and I'd love to vote. I was just bringing up what is sure to be a major objection if such a policy were instituted.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. Your point is well-taken.
It's teens like you who should be able to vote...especially since the government feels it's ok to tax your income.

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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. And by the way...
Welcome to DU! :bounce:
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Comicstripper Donating Member (876 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Thanks
Everyone has been incredibly welcoming.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
40. Very slippery slope
Once you start tying eligibility to vote with economic factors like having to file a tax return, you open a door where you probably don't want to go. Why leave it at that? Why not PROHIBIT those who do not need to file a tax return form voting? You can't have two classes of people of the same age with different rights based on their economic status.
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. But why should people who pay taxes
NOT have the right to vote?

If 14 year olds have to pay income tax on their babysitting and lawn-mowing enterprizes, they should have the right to vote.

If they aren't mature enough to vote, they shouldn't have to pay taxes.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #43
53. What if that 14 year old own stock
Edited on Mon Jun-07-04 06:40 PM by Freddie Stubbs
and that stock earns $5 million in dividends? Should that income be exempt because the kid isn't mature enough to vote? That would create one heck of a tax shelter for the rich.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. A 14-year-old, as a minor, cannot own stock in their own name.
Nor can they own real estate or an automobile, or sign a contract.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. This is like a plot from a bad 60's movie
:silly:
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Poiuyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. It was - "Wild in the Streets"
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I know
I've seen that flick at least three times during a particularly bad bout of insomnia I went through in the late 80's.

:evilgrin:
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. See post 8
:hi:
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TO Kid Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
25. Who would vote for a 14 year old?
}:-)
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Other 14 year olds
:evilgrin:
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
27. At what age should citizens be allowed to vote?
Edited on Mon Jun-07-04 02:49 PM by plan9_pub
At whatever age the state they live in deems they can be tried as an adult.

David Allen
www.thoughtcrimes.org
Distrusting the Government Since 1984
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
29. I see the deep thinkers have entered the thread.
From the article:
"Right now, we have no say and are ignored by politicians, but once we do have a say politicians will have to take us more seriously,'' said Robert, who wore a tie to Sacramento rather than Berkeley tie-dye.

Politicians today generally only pay attention to the voters at election time. The last several letters I wrote Representatives and Senators weren't even acknowledged as received. When I was younger I did receive replies back.

I think they must pay more attention to corporate donors and wealthy individuals who largely finance their re-election campaigns. Thus, we end up with fascism. Still, theoretically, they should pay attention to those who actually vote.
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JustFiveMoreMinutes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
30. Representation BEFORE taxation?
hmmmmm... maybe we should haul the tea out of Boston Harbor ... REWIND.
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
34. Anyone who can be SENTENCED as an adult should have a right to vote
It is fundamentally contradictory for our justice system to allow adult sentences for teen offenders, while at the same time denying them the right to vote. The adult sentence is supported solely by the notion that the offender was capable of making an adult life decision, and should therefore be liable to adult consequences. If this is allowed, then the state fundamentally accepts the view that teens CAN make adult decisions. There is then absolutely no foundation for denying them the right to vote. So, if your state allows courts to sentence teens (as young as eleven!) as adults, or if you have ever promoted an adult sentence for a teenager on the basis of the "severity of the crime" then your state - and you! - should support a reduction of the voting age DOWN TO the possible age of adult sentencing. To do otherwise is irrational, contradictory, and unjust.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
35. No person younger than 35 should be allowed to vote.
Edited on Mon Jun-07-04 03:34 PM by TahitiNut
After all, if they're not allowed to be President then they shouldn't be able to vote.

:dunce:
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
38. LOL
"Right now, we have no say and are ignored by politicians, but once we do have a say politicians will have to take us more seriously,''

Just like they take college students seriously.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
41. A 14 year old voting for Arnold Schwarzenegger could have the
mentality of a voter choosing his favorite actor, not the best representative for his district, senator for his state, or president of his country. The issues are too complex, teens don't universally keep themselves apprised of current events and issues, and don't have a grip on American history. Yes, a good portion of American adults suffer the same malady, but why add a demographic that can be more likely to be manipulated by demagogues, their handlers, and the media?
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Baltimoreboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
45. 14-year-old wants sex with super models
About as likely.
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ThePandaBear Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
51. I am all for it!
Edited on Mon Jun-07-04 05:31 PM by ThePandaBear
If 14 year olds were allowed to vote, that would spell doom for the republican party. Polls show that the younger a person is, the more likely to vote democrat they are. If 14 year old were allowed to vote, that would be a huge obstacle for Bush to overcome, considering how close this race is.


As long as a 14 year old can be tried as an adult and our taxed like adult, he should have the priveledges of an adult.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-04 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
54. I'm all for it -- no taxation without representation.
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