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Kadie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 10:44 AM
Original message
Lindh case possible sign of abuse (John Walker Lindh)
Lindh case possible sign of abuse
Captors instructed to 'take gloves off' while questioning

Richard A. Serrano, Los Angeles Times
Wednesday, June 9, 2004

Washington -- After American Taliban recruit John Walker Lindh of Marin County was captured in Afghanistan, the office of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld instructed military intelligence officers to "take the gloves off" in interrogating him.

The instructions from Rumsfeld's legal counsel in late 2001, contained in previously undisclosed government documents, are the earliest known evidence that the Bush administration was willing to test the limits of how far it could go legally to extract information from suspected terrorists.

The Pentagon and Congress are now investigating the mistreatment of inmates at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq in late 2003 and trying to determine whether higher-ups in the military chain of command had created a climate that fostered prisoner abuse.

What happened to Lindh, who was stripped and humiliated by his captors, foreshadowed the type of abuse documented in photographs of American soldiers tormenting Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

more... http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/06/09/MNGUG737901.DTL
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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hah! I knew it...!!
Edited on Wed Jun-09-04 10:48 AM by LeftHander
When I saw the video of CIA "Mike" Spann interrogating Lihnd while holding a pen in front of his face I knew he had been drugged....

spelling....
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w13rd0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. of course...
...this stuff all goes to the ROOT, to the very TOP. It was all greenlighted from on high, and they MUST be held accountable, or our Constitution isn't worth the hemp it's printed on.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Spann and his widow were both good Christians
both CIA, too.

Here's Shannon, saying that God kept "Mike" from being tortured himself. Their God must be bigger than Lindh's, I guess.


http://www.billygraham.org/article.asp?i=43&s=55

<snip>

The last time that Mike talked with them was at Thanksgiving. He mentioned then the influx of prisoners coming into Mazar-e Sharif, the city where he was to interview the prisoners. That Saturday night, which in Afghanistan would have been Sunday morning, November 25, Shannon said that she prayed, "God, protect Mike from having to see too much craziness today."

In her journal she has marked that as an answered prayer. The hour that she prayed was approximately the hour that Mike was killed during a terrible prison revolt that erupted as he was questioning the captured and surrendered Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters.

"It gave me a little blessing," she said, "to know that perhaps God had honored my prayer in that Mike wasn’t tortured. He didn’t suffer. His death was quick. God preserved him, and perhaps in some way I participated in that through prayer."

more...


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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. St. Ronnie has now joined St. Johnny "Mike" Spann
Conservative Heaven sounds like a peculiar place.
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lucky777 Donating Member (298 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Lindh was railroaded -- they had no case against him
He was fighting the northern alliance, not the US. And he was totally mistreated. I hope this comes out . . .
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
30. That's new. Would you kindly back that up,...
,...with any link or et al info.

And, what do you mean by your assertion that he was "fighting the nothern alliance".

Please,...bring us up to date about all that.
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riverwalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. "hourly cables" TO WHO?
"Lindh was being questioned while he was propped up naked and tied to a stretcher in interrogation sessions that went on for days, according to court papers. In the early stages, his responses were cabled to Washington hourly, the new documents show."

CABLED TO WHO? Whoever recieved the "hourly cables" on the interrogations knew exactly what was going on. Who recieved them?

"Lindh's lawyers declined to comment on the matter this week, noting that a provision of his 2002 plea agreement stated he would not bring up the conditions under which he was held overseas."

Lindh should just say "screw the plea agreement" and start talking, hell, start SHOUTING. The whole case is illegal anyway and will probably be thrown out soon.


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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. The statements are contradictory
"After American Taliban recruit John Walker Lindh of Marin County was captured in Afghanistan, the office of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld instructed military intelligence officers to "take the gloves off" in interrogating him."
...
"Department officials stress that all interrogation policies and procedures demand humane treatment of personnel in their custody," the representative said."


So, basically "take the gloves off", but "leave the gloves on", or so the spokeperson is saying. They can't both be true - I am voting for statement number one being the truth.
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GregW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I think he meant ...
Edited on Wed Jun-09-04 11:55 AM by GregW
Take these gloves off:



and put these gloves on:

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daleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Yes, that may be it
n/t
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goodhue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
6. finally
Some are at long last connecting dots between lindh & abu ghraib.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. "Possible sign"?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. Remember, Lindh IS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN
Disgraceful in every way...

"After Lindh asked for a lawyer rather than talk to interrogators, he was not granted one nor was he advised of his Miranda rights against self-incrimination. Instead, the Pentagon ordered intelligence officers to get tough with him."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-prison9jun09,1,3173753.story?coll=la-home-headlines

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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
11. is Kerry gonna have the guts to go after the Bushies
for war crimes

or are we going to have to stomach a "national unity" thing
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Chicago Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Cruxify him!!!!
Cruxify Him!

Try them for War Crimes.... Find them guilty....

then pardon Bush....just like Nixon

Let the others fry
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lebkuchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. Lindh was the precursor to Abu Ghraib and Gitmo (Genoa was before Lindh)
Last month, before the Senate and House Armed Services Committees, the Secretary told Committee members, under oath, that he was first made aware of prisoner abuses mid-January 2004. He stated that the Department of Defense was a huge organization, with 18,000 criminal investigations opened, 3,000 courts-martial, and that there was “no way in the world I could anticipate.”

However, in April 2002 the media had informed Rumsfeld of similar prisoner abuses, in particular, that of American John Walker Lindh. US Special Forces had posed for photos with Lindh, who was strapped naked to a stretcher, handcuffed, with an obscenity written across his blindfold, in violation of international norms on prisoner treatment. Rumsfeld explained then that he had not seen the photos, adding, ‘You know, there’s hundreds of detainees, and about every day somebody says something. I guess if you ask me when I got up in the morning - and we’ve got people being killed in the Mideast and we’ve got a war going on in Afghanistan - if I am going to change my schedule and go chasing after rumors on things like that, it’s unlikely.’’

Lindh’s lawyers argued unsuccessfully that their client had made self-incriminating statements under duress and had been held under “horrific conditions,” a familiar pattern given what we know today. See here for the story.

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2002/04/13/story46355.asp
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Tina H Donating Member (550 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
14. Self delete
Edited on Wed Jun-09-04 12:40 PM by Tina H
accidentally posted on wrong thread
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
15. Free John Lindh !
He has suffered enough at the fands of the fascists!
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I Agree, Kentuck. Consider the Fates of John Lindh vs. Abdul Khan
Glad to see I am not alone on this.

If the the Bush Administration can nod with approval the unbelievable "pardoning" by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistani physicist, Abdul Qadeer Khan ---who admitted peddling who nuclear weapons equipment and expertise to Iran, Libya and North Korea --- then what on earth is John Lindh doing in prison for life?!!!!!

Are we to all feel safer knowing Lindh is behind bars and that Khan is a free agent? :shrug:

Some war on terrorism, huh? :shrug:
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corriger Donating Member (207 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. they tortured this poor fool
Edited on Wed Jun-09-04 02:05 PM by corriger
they treated him like an animal, then they railroaded the hell out of him. Fuck you ASSCRACK freak fundy John Ashcroft. I detest fundamentalist anything whether a freak like John Ashcroft or any other freak whether muslim or christian. Damned bastards. Sorry, rant off. --I do not like fundamentalist anything! Because they inherently create nothing but violence and intolerance.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Rant On!
The story of this boy and his treatment by both the government and the "corporate media" is another chapter in and of itself.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. It was pretty clear to us all then, there just wasn't anything we
could do then, was there? God knows most of us here tried........

DZ, Kentuck and all the rest, this is rough, are we really going to make it through to the other side? Is this country going to come out whole and in one piece?
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Anarchy1999, We Are All In A Collective / Precarious State of Affairs
The November election may not be the most pivotal one in the nation's history, but if it isn't then it must be close to being so.

Someone asked me what would happen should GWB be re-elected (or re-selected). My answer still is that we will not recognize the United States anymore should this crowd have another four years. The U.S.A. would have changed --- for the worse --- permanently.

That's why regardless of how one may feel about John Kerry's shortcomings, it is jawdroppingly naive to think for one second that Kerry would not leave the nation, our liberties, our environment and our standard of living in far better condition than this arrogant fool that resides in the White House now.
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anarchy1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Thanks DZ for your thoughts and for sharing.
We also feel the same, as do many others. See ya in the South....... as in south of the equator, Happy New Year to us all, just kidding, of course. (and yes, we confess, we were green in 2000, but still we're sorry and we did nothing to help Nader or the Greens this year).
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Green is Great. But You're Doing the Right Thing Helping Kerry Now.
I gave money to Matt Gonzales in San Francisco. I love the Greens and, yes, I still like Ralph Nader...a lot.

But, I'm doing everything I can now to help John Kerry defeat the Bush Cabal. Glad to see you are with us.
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Mace Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. Innocent until proven guilty?
I guess the repugs don't think this way.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
26. Lindh's only crime was to be born 15 years too late
All the people in the CIA who recruited kids just like Lindh ought to be strung up by the balls.

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Archive/CIA_Created_Osama.htm

According to Ahmed Rashid, a correspondent for the Far Eastern Economic Review, in 1986 CIA chief William Casey committed CIA support to a long-standing ISI proposal to recruit from around the world to join the Afghan jihad. At least 100,000 Islamic militants flocked to Pakistan between 1982 and 1992 (some 60,000 attended fundamentalist schools in Pakistan without necessarily taking part in the fighting).

John Cooley, a former journalist with the US ABC television network and author of Unholy Wars: Afghanistan, America and International Terrorism, has revealed that Muslims recruited in the US for the mujaheddin were sent to Camp Peary, the CIA's spy training camp in Virginia, where young Afghans, Arabs from Egypt and Jordan, and even some African-American “black Muslims” were taught “sabotage skills”.

The November 1, 1998, British Independent reported that one of those charged with the 1998 bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Ali Mohammed, had trained “bin Laden's operatives” in 1989.
These “operatives” were recruited at the al Kifah Refugee Centre in Brooklyn, New York, given paramilitary training in the New York area and then sent to Afghanistan with US assistance to join Hekmatyar's forces. Mohammed was a member of the US army's elite Green Berets.

These camps, now dubbed “terrorist universities” by Washington, were built in collaboration with the ISI and the CIA. The Afghan contra fighters, including the tens of thousands of mercenaries recruited and paid for by bin Laden, were armed by the CIA. Pakistan, the US and Britain provided military trainers.

Tom Carew, a former British SAS soldier who secretly fought for the mujaheddin told the August 13, 2000, British Observer, “The Americans were keen to teach the Afghans the techniques of urban terrorism — car bombing and so on — so that they could strike at the Russians in major towns ... Many of them are now using their knowledge and expertise to wage war on everything they hate.”
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
27. Some one has got to "release" Lindh from the gag order..
"Lindh's lawyers declined to comment on the matter this week, noting that a provision of his 2002 plea agreement stated he would not bring up the conditions under which he was held overseas."

The commission addressing Iraqi abuse has got to get a court order releasing Lindh from the agreement. (In the interest of Nat'l Security, of course!) For God sake, the kid is an American!

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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I'll bet $$$$ to 0000...Lindh knows plenty...
and could blow this whole thing wide open!
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-09-04 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
29. kick
:kick:
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