British PM facing more misery in European polls

[dArKeR]

LONDON (AFP) - British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) was facing a likely second helping of electoral humiliation on Sunday as his Labour party prepared for miserable results in European Parliament elections.

Local council polls held last Thursday in tandem with the European vote saw Labour take a severe battering, slipping to third place in the popular vote tally -- unprecedented for a ruling party -- and shedding hundreds of seats.

Senior ministers, who have acknowledged that the war on Iraq (news - web sites) cost Labour dearly at the polls, rallied round Blair on Sunday.

Chancellor the Exchequer Gordon Brown, tipped as Blair's likely successor, dismissed suggestions that the beleaguered leader had become an electoral liability.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040613/wl_afp/eu_vote_britain_040613170532

[Kellanved]

1. Schröder was hit as bad

The German Social Democrats (my Party) got less than 22% of the votes; despite the conservatives having no European program and no real joint European party at all.

Using the European Elections to express issues with the national leaders is so mindboggingly stupid, I have problems getting to terms with it.

[Darranar]

29. Not a European, but it does seem illogical...

sort of like punishing an incompetent Democratic governor by voting Republican in the national elections. Of course, the EU is a far looser confederation than the US.

The Italian government got hit hard too, it wasn't just the left-wing parties (if Blair and Schroder can still be considered that). Seems like many Europeans want change, and their governments aren't providing it, regardless of the ideology.

What sort of power does the EU parliament have, anyway?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

47. If you are a leader and you make the wrong decison - you've got to pay

for your bad judgement. And anyone who was advising him or didn't speak out against it should pay also. If you don't have good leadership abilities and don't have good judgement - get another job that you can handle.

[0007]

2. This schmuck just doesn't get it, does he?

[saigon68]

27. His head

Is firmly up his rectum

[fedsron2us]

3. The local elections have been a vote of no confidence in Blair

However, the results for the Conservatives were not quite as good as the number of seats won might at first indicate. The Tories share of the vote at 38 % was no where near enough to guarantee a change of government at the next national election victory. Worse some of the Councils they won in places such as Worthing or Eastbourne on the south Coast of England were taken from the Liberal Democrats not Labour. These towns already have Tory MP's in the national Parliament so there are no follow up gains to be had in a General Election. The Tories are still primarily a party of rural areas and the South East of England. They have almost no representation in Scotland. Wales, or the big metropolitan areas such as Liverpool or Manchester. Unless they can win seats in the big cities they are going to struggle to oust Blair from government.

[AP]

4. How did the Tories beat LibDems???

Does all this criticism of Blair turn people to the Tories rather than to LibDems?

[Mokito]

5. Simple. It's the same thing we just saw here in Belgium; Traditionalism!

People tend to flock to the large, established parties, even those which don't represent their point of view, if they want to 'punish' another party. The LibDems just aren't large or established enough for many people.

Sad but true.

[AlCzervik]

6. I've read in several articles

that the tories hold the republican party in contempt, is there any truth to that?

[AP]

7. Are you kidding? The US Republican party? They're hand in glove.

Some of Bush's best friends are Tory Party members.

[Atlanticist]

32. I'm sorry, could you name any ?

There are a large number of sensible Tories who have consistently opposed the war in Iraq and who have nothing at all in common with the Republican Party - Ken Clarke, Douglas Hurd, Chris Patten, Ian Taylor, John Selwyn Gummer, Edward Leigh, Malcolm Rifkind, the 52 Diplomats - most of whom would have been Tories etc. Have you seen Ken Clarke talking about Bush - it's hilarious - he despises the man.

Most of the Tory MP's supported the war in Parliament (after being told of the "imminent" threat posed by WMD), but the Tories generally are hardly trumpeting their link to the Republican Party these days. This isn't Maggie and Ronnie. Remember, the ideological, fundamentalist turn the Republicans have taken has turned off many many Tories, who see themselves ultimately as pragmatists. There are very few idealogues left in the Tory Party.

Please please do not confuse the current Conservative Party in Britain (who, in my less lucid moments could even see myself voting for one day!!) with the current Republican party (who I despise with every fibre of my being). As the US and Europe have moved poles apart on many issues, Conservatism in Europe is moving away from the current flavour of Republicanism currently practised by Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft etc.

[AP]

34. How 'bout the ones who went straight from Major's cabinet to selling arms

to Milosevic after May 1, 1997?

Do you think they wouldn't be part of the next Tory government?

Yeah, they'll oppose the war to make Tony look bad. But they'll be cashing the checks from their defense industry cronies when chaos reigns in a world where the british sit back, claiming to be isolationists, while American imperialism causes instability around the world.

[Atlanticist]

36. I'm sorry, I'm having difficulty following your train of thought

You stated the current Tory Party was "hand-in-glove" with the current Republican Party, and that many of Bush's best friends were in the current Tory party.

I stated my disagreement with this view and asked you who in the current Tory party was close to Bush.

You then started going on about Slobodan Milosevic!!??

Do you really think Kenneth Clarke, Douglas Hurd and Malcolm Rifkind are anti-war to make Blair look bad. If you really think this, I'm not sure you've been listening to them.

Some Tories are members of Defense Industry boards, just as some Labour politicians are, but not the ones I've listed.

Did I miss the statement that Britain claims to be isolationist? When did Blair decide to withdraw from world affairs ? When did the Tory platform include isolationism as a stated policy ?

I'm afraid your post made little sense.

[AP]

37. Tories make their money same way as Bush cronies. Off the swings from

chaos to calm. They need the chaos at regularly scheduled intervals.

Members of Major's cabinet went into the business of selling arms after they left the government. That's how they make money.

They can be against the war in Iraq, or at least participation in it. But do you think that the Tories, if in power again, would be against the idea of war? Have they ever been? No. You know why? Because that's how they make money.

If they got in power and backed out of Iraq, the Tories would certainly prey that the war went on, escalated and spread. And if it died down, they'd want another one somewhere else.

This is the story of the 20th century.

This is why RW'ers didn't want the League of Nations or a powerful UN. The calm, steady progress those organizations would promote would interfere with that predictable (for insideres) swing from chaos to calm from which RW'ers make their money.

[Atlanticist]

38. While this may (or more likely may not) be true,

this is not what you said in your post. You asserted that Bush is pally-pally with loads of British Tories. This is simply not true. You've switched onto a completely different topic, that of western conservative politicians and their economic interests in encouraging war.

[AP]

39. Common financial goals make for close friends. I'm not switching topics.

Reagan and both Bushes have incredibly close ties to the Tory party, and to people (especially in the British oil industry and in the arms manufacturing business, through the Carlyle Group) who support the Tories.

I believe Blumenthal names names in The Clinton Wars as does Pallast in many of his articles.

It's really sweet that you're so committed to rehablitating the crediblity of the Tory Party, and it's wonderful that you can imagine voting for them, but facts are facts.

[Atlanticist]

42. I'm sure this is getting tedious for everyone else but

you stated Bush was close friends with loads of Tories - I asked you to name them, but you haven't - you've just started chuntering on about the Carlyle Group and the selling of weapons to Milosevic.

Facts are facts - yes they are, and you're not providing any. Please link to support for the Bush Administration from the current Tory party leadership. You won't find any. Like I say, times have moved on from the Ronnie and Maggie show.

In terms of rehabilitating the Tories, I have no interest in this, I voted only last week for the Liberal Democrats - why would I want to do this in any case on a liberal board ? I am however happy to jump in to correct some of the tosh written on this board about how may close friends GWB has in the British Conservative party.

Facts are facts, and Bush has much closer friends in the Labour Party, starting with his "stand-up kind of guy" praying buddy, Tony Blair, followed by Jack Straw, and probably others.

[AP]

43. I don't care if they have tea together. But they are his cronies.

Facts: The Clinton Wars lays out a few of the tight connections between Bush-Tory connections, as does Pallast.

[Atlanticist]

45. "It's true, I tell ya !! I know it's true 'cause.....well, 'cause...." n/t

[AP]

46. ...'cause Pallast and Blumenthal write about it.

and I find the connections too obvious, and your eagerness to paint pretty pictures of Tories so strong that I'm not sure it's worth my time to walk over to the bookshelf and page through those books just to find the names of Tory politicians and members of the business community who buddies with the Republican party.

[Atlanticist]

48. OK you win - I challenge you to come up with names

and because I do, I'm a Tory and because I'm a Tory you can't be bothered to come up with names!! Blumenthal's book was about the Clinton years, and the Tories have gone through 2 leaders and a number of Cabinet reshuffles since then. Good God, this is as tenuous as the link between Saddam and Al Qaeda - because you want to believe it's so doesn't make it so.

This is my last post on this topic. You overreached in your initial post, failed to back it up, and are now resorting to slogans and name-calling.

[AP]

50. We went through two terms of Clinton and Bush came back. Yuck. I'm sure

the Tories have the same resiliency.

You did send me to my bookshelf though, and my copy of the The Clinton Wars isn't there. I don't remember lending it to anyone. I'll tell you what. You give me a little time, and I promise you that when I find that book, I'll come right back here and give you a few names.

(By the way, one slogan you'll never here me use is, "I'd even consider voting for the Tories.")

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. Have you got any names?

Then we'll be able to tell you if they'll be in the next government or not. Or some names of those who are friends of Bush. More friends than, say, Blair.

[Vladimir]

52. This is really quite beside the point

who cares if the Tories like or dislike Bush? The fact is their policies are a disaster acrtoss the board:

- They would cut numbers of students going into university

- They would abolish checks on the fairness of university admissions

- They will reduce spending on an already under-invested NHS

- They will cut education spending

- They are talking about bringing back the poll tax. The fucking poll tax??!

Of course the tories aren't in the same boat as the Republicans now, because the British political spectrum won't tolerate it. That's not to say many wouldn't be further to the right if they thought they could win votes that way. And it doesn't mean they won't govern to the right of stated policy if elected - which after all is exactly what Blair did.

[Atlanticist]

33. Many Tories do. Remember, the typical

Tory party member can be described as follows :

elderly,

well-educated,

comfortably off,

pragmatic,

traditionalist,

if religious, Episcopalian,

anti-immigration.

Does that sound like someone who would sit well with the Bush Republican party? Countless Tories despise Bush and everything he stands for - Douglas Hurd, Chris Patten, Malcolm Rifkind, Ken Clarke, John Gummer - all ex-Conservative Ministers in the Thatcher government are on public record in voicing their disapproval of Bush.

Most Tories don't have a visceral hatred for Bush you'd find on the left in Britain, but most Brits across the political spectrum think he's a dangerous dimwit.

[Vladimir]

55. Yes so they are well-off establishmentarian racists

...the dislike of Bush amongst Tories is based less on policies and more on jingoistic snobbery. Right wing Brits dislike Bush because it allows them to feel superior to the 'Yanks' and it feeds the ridiculous notion that somehow if only Britain were in charge, everything would be fine and dandy.

And the people you list are mostly on the fringe of the party today anyhow: Patten and Clarke because they are pro-EU, Hurd is a political non-entity these days as is Gummer. Only Rifkind is still important and he is, as you so well put it, pragmatic enough that he would support Bush tomorrow were he in office and found it in his best interests.

[AP]

8. I think it's the result of a very carefully contructed plot with the media

[daleo]

11. The same thing may happen in Canada soon

Throw in vote splitting between the centrist Liberals and the sort of left NDP (New Democratic Party), a strong regionalist party in Quebec, a first past the post electoral system and the Tories may just win the election here. That would be with less than 35% of the popular vote. Crazy, but true.

[fedsron2us]

21. It is not as crazy as it seems

Towns like Eastbourne and Worthing used to be Conservative strongholds. They lost control of them when the Tory party's electoral fortunes went into a nose dive under the John Major government. All that has happened is that they have won back some of their heartland. Because most UK elections are decided on a first past the post basis and not proportional representation so quite small changes in the distribution of votes can see substantial changes in the number of seats held by different parties. The whole system is really rigged to ensure the two largest parties, Labour and the Tories. always get the lions share of the places on councils and in Parliament. Smaller parties such as the Liberal Democrats, the Scottish Nationalists and the Welsh Nationalists do not always get the representation that their percentage share of the vote deserves.

[Darranar]

30. Yes, I was wondering that too...

the Liberal Democrats did do very well, beating Labor, however (in the local elections that is).

It may simply be a leadership problem ("look, he can't control his own party") but I think that if Labor wants to win they need to unite behind someone anti-war. Opposition to this excursion in Iraq was of course the majority opinion there...

[SoCalDem]

9. Looks like they paid attention to this sign

[dArKeR]

10. EU vote reveals political fault lines

London — European voters punished leaders in Britain, Italy and the Netherlands for getting involved in Iraq — but also turned their ire on the war's chief opponents German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder and French President Jacques Chirac over local issues, projections showed Sunday.

The 25-nation vote, which was spread out over four days, also revealed anxieties about an issue close to home: the newly expanded European Union itself.

Among the few that did well were Spain's Socialists, who recently withdrew troops from Iraq after a backlash over a March 11 terrorist attack. The Socialists — surprise victors in elections days after the bombings — won a new stamp of legitimacy by emerging on top in the European parliamentary vote as well.

http://theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040613.weueu0613/BNStory/International/

[Spazito]

12. It looks to me like "incumbents" are going to pay the price...

and I think that is an important message to politicians, status quo is not acceptable. It is VERY interesting that Spain's Socialists did well, it, again, says the people want a change, politics as usual isn't selling. This bodes well for a change of "regime" in the US, does not bode well for the Liberal party in Canada, my hope, at best, is a Liberal minority government that must work with the NDP to stay in power.

[Bhaisahab]

15. and don't forget india...

which recently kicked-out the rightwing pro-israeli, pro-US govt and gave the highest number of seats ever to the communist parties.

i think there is a worldwide pattern emerging here...

[Vladimir]

56. If there is one, it don't include Britain

for one thing, the left-wing parties did abysmally, with the Lib Dems making tiny gains, Plaid Cumry in Wales getting destroyed, the SNP getting the same treatment in Scotland, RESPECT got mullered... ok the Greens did allright but that is a cold comfort when the fucking UKIP get 16% or whatever. For another thing, the war wasn't such an issue for the voters as Labour is trying to present it. It made a difference in the Labour supporters stayed at home, but it didn't actively transfer votes to an anti-war opposition.

This election was a triumph for the right in Britain, there are no two ways about it.

[T_i_B]

13. This result is a vote against the EU

Not nessesarily against "new" Labour, just witness the UKIP and their performance. The tories did really well in the EU elections last time, but they still got slaughtered in the General election. This time round the UKIP have split the anti-EU protest vote (but because of PR neither they nor the tories lose out to Labour)

Come the General election more different matters will be voted upon than the EU, and as such the results may well be quite different to this.

[Spentastic]

14. It’s an indictment of the “we know what’s best” attitude

Of the major parties. Never underestimate how racist and insular the British are. The idea of an integrated Europe is not popular. The first major party to pander to this arguably idiotic stance will claim the next general election.

[Mr Creosote]

16. I can't quite see

the equation between racism and not wanting an integrated Europe. What's wrong with wanting self-determination? Are those Scots who want independence racist? It's never occurred to me that they are.

[Spentastic]

17. Yes

It's racist to say "I don't want to be in Europe because I hate the French and Germans". If you claim not to have heard such sentiments expressed or used to garner support for "independence" you're either a teller of untruths or exceptionally hard of hearing.

UKIPS platform plays upon the xenophobic nature of the British populace. The fact that Robert Kilroy Silk is part of it should give you a clue.

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

18. Don't forget the hordes of Gypsies the Express

is obsessed with.

As to Kilroy -- the less said the better!

[silverpatronus]

31. right on there...

one thing europeans all agree on: they hate the rom...gypsies are the one group it's still considered PC to spit on (sometimes literally). they may all hate each other, but they hate the gypsies more.

[Mr Creosote]

19. I am not aware

that I made any such claim, so I am not clear why you choose to describe me as "either a teller of untruths or exceptionally hard of hearing".
This apparently a forum where cheap and unjustified insults are tolerated and I want no more of it.

[LivingInTheBubble]

20. xenophobia is not racism. EOM

[aneerkoinos]

25. racism is xenophobia. EOM

[fedsron2us]

23. Never has a party had a more inappropriate name than UKIP

They failed to win a single European seat in Scotland and Wales so they can hardly be described as representing the whole of the United Kingdom. Most of their votes came from disaffected Tories in the South of England who feel that the Conservative party is far too friendly with those beastly foreigners living 20 miles away on the other side of the Channel. Since much of UKIPs funding appears to come from sources outside of Britain one must wonder what is the real motivation behind this campaign. I suspect that it really represents the interests of businessmen who are worried that the EU might actually try to regulate their activities and make them pay a fair share of taxes. Should UKIP become a force in British national politics then I think we might see some interesting developments. For a start the Scots and Welsh could decide to opt to become independent states within the EU. They need only look at the example of Ireland to see that this is a viable proposition. Since UKIP claims to want to liberate Britons from the tyranny of rule from Brussels it would be deeply hypocritical to then deny the Scots and the Welsh similar freedom from rule from London. It would be deeply ironic if one of the results of the rantings of the idiots in UKIP was the break up of the United Kingdom.

[aneerkoinos]

24. Scotts?

Where did that come from? UKIP is big amont the Little Ingerlanders, but did badly in Scotland. Scottish Nationalist Party (and Scottish Socialist Party and few others) want's independence from England, but want to stay in the Union.

The agenda of UKIP and other similar cheap populist and ultra-nationalistic fascist parties is based on xenophobia.

[Atlanticist]

35. Totally agree

While many anti-Europeans are little Englanders with an anti-immigrat perspective, there are many perfectly acceptable arguments against further erosion of British sovreignty to Europe.

[T_i_B]

26. The EU does have problems

Just look at the CAP for instance, not to mention a 265 page constitution that is not exactly easy to understand. The parties that tend to do better in the EU elections are the ones that tend to debate these issues from what I can see.

There are anti-EU racists, but to say that anyone with reservations about the EU is a xenophobe would be absurd.

[Spentastic]

28. You know me better than that TiB

"There are anti-EU racists, but to say that anyone with reservations about the EU is a xenophobe would be absurd."

I said never underestimate the racist insular nature of the English. I stand by that. I see out "football fans" are doing the country proud again.

UKIPS platform piggy backs on racism and Xenophobia.

[T_i_B]

51. And playing up the racism charge.....

...is only going to make those of us with reservations about the way the EU operates less likely to listen. Not liking the EU is hardly tantamount to racism, despite the best efforts of the far right. Just look at parties such as the greens and RESPECT, who are Euro-sceptic from the anti-racist left.

The fact that the only really pro-EU option on the ballot paper was the Lib Dems should be a warning in itself that the EU is in urgent need of change if it does not wish to stay unpopular.

[Vladimir]

53. There is a difference between racism

and being pro or anti-EU. I, for example, am for a federal Europe but against the constitution (as it stands) and against Britain joining the Euro (as things stand). For me its an issue of democracy - I very much want the death of nationalism, but not if the price is that major political decisions are taken by unelected officials who there is no control over. The vast majority of the British left (and I expressly do not count the Lib Dems as left) are anti-EU for that very reason. The very worst thing Europhiles can do is keep quiet about Europe's failings to avoid charges of racism IMO.

[Emboldened Chimp]

22. Do the honorable thing, Tony

Resign. Leave with a shred of dignity.

[dArKeR]

41. Kelly committed suicide for 'honor'. Hint hint.

[truthspeaker]

44. Suicide. Sure. I believe that.

[struggle4progress]

49. Do it for the children, Tony!

Don't destroy Labour!

[Skittles]

54. GOOD

that f***wit deserves it.