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OK, OK, Bush AWOL is NOT a lose-lose issue

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x-g.o.p.er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:52 AM
Original message
OK, OK, Bush AWOL is NOT a lose-lose issue
A few days ago I wrote that I thought the Bush AWOL issue was a lose-lose issue for us. Let me state for the record that I, apparently, didn't know what the hell I was talking about.

After I made that post, I listened more and more to the White House trying to explain Bush's NG service, and it keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. I also read all the responses to my post, and many folks wrote that it does go the core of Bush's character and integrity, especially as it relates to the Commander in Chief, and I agree. I am a pilot in the military, and if I just decided not to get my physical, my commander would hammer me. And I do believe if I were to blatantly blow off my physical like Bush apparently did, I could be subject to UCMJ punishment, like an article 15. At a minimum, I would receive a lettor of reprimand.

And now the Friday night records release? Hmmmmmmm. Very strange behavior, indeed. It would seem if all the answers are in the records, wouldn't it make sense to release them before Friday night, so all the questions could be put to rest? This just adds to the mystery, IMHO.

I still won't call him AWOL, because as an officer on active duty, I could be charged with insubordination and conduct unbecoming under the UCMJ. Seriously. But it sure looks like he is trying to keep some bit of damaging information from coming out.
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. That's very big of you.
Not to gloat, but I ALWAYS knew this was a win-win issue.
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Torgo4 Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. 178 Days Lost Added to Bush Service Obligation
He had a 6 year service commitment from 24 May 68 to 24 May 74.

His FINAL Discharge was 21 NOV 1974,

Why would they tack on time to his service obligation?

Making up bad days?

AWOL,,,Oh Yeah!!!
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Vickers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. Cool post! Also, since yer a pilot, let me ask you a question...
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 09:05 AM by Vickers
...could you imagine letting your flying credentials slip just because they wouldn't be needed for a few months?

This is the part about the excuses that really bugs me. I work around pilots and ex-pilots every day, and some of the older ones almost start crying when they talk about being medically disqualified.

To think that Georgie, a COMBAT PILOT, would let his flying privileges be taken away, all because of a flight physical, well, I've simply never ran across that around ANY pilot (8 years working around them in the service, 14 years working around pilots in the civilian sector).

Even pilots who end up as squadron- or wing-level commanders will fly a certain amount of hours each month JUST TO RETAIN THEIR FLYING STATUS.

It's a bald lie that any pilot should be able to see through.
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x-g.o.p.er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Answer
Quite frankly, no, I couldn't. I have also been permanently medically dq'd from flying, and it was the worst day of my life professionally.
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lanlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. the records released Friday only beg the question--
--why Bush let his pilot status expire in 72 because in one of the documents from 68, when he joined up, he says he wants to fly planes for a living.
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alcuno Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. Being able to change positions is a sign of strength.
Coming out and saying it makes you a rare and wonderful person. The media tends to call them flip-flops; as if the ability to change ones position is a bad thing. The problem with people who take an absolute position is that they often get stuck there. We're learning and changing all the time, or at least we should be.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you for your post
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 09:14 AM by DoYouEverWonder
and also, thank you for your service to our country.

I only hope that there are many more like you in the Armed Services, who are also starting to see the light.

I think you will that most of us at DU really do love America and that is what we are fighting for.

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Kazak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
7. Well, well, well...your 2nd recent major revelation, eh?
Congrats are in order.

:toast:
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x-g.o.p.er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Revelation.....no.
Well, maybe.

:)
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SpaceCatMeetsMars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
9. The White House has said that they focus so much
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 10:10 AM by CalamityJane
on the photo ops because they know a lot of people are essentially accepting images from TV and looking at headlines, rather than reading articles. A lot of these people have an image of Bush as a brave war hero and fighter pilot.

If they want to look at the true image of Bush, they should be picturing how he sat in the elementary school on 9-11 reading for 20 minutes and then flew away to Nebraska. I don't mind so much that he flew away, but he should have taken charge from somewhere immediately, got on the phone and ordered evacuation from all federal buildings and potential targets, found out what hijacked planes were in the air and what the fighter jets could do, appear on TV to reassure the citizens and so on.

If people won't find out the facts for themselves, they should at least have an accurate picture that is the measure of the man. If not showing up for his physical and getting hijmself grounded is what makes them see it, that he is a spoiled, privileged person that pretends to be a hero, that's OK too, I guess.

At least a lot of people are starting to realize that he is a prince that is not qualified to be where he is.
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ithacan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
11. right, it's not about Vietnam, it's about character
and it's only one more piece of evidence on the very serious character defects that mark Bush and his White House.

That's why it's important.

ESPECIALLY since they're touting him as having integrity, etc. Especially since they're touting him as the "war president". Especially since they are sending SO MANY national guardsmen and women into harm's way in Iraq, based on lies...

This is not about Vietnam. It's about honor and integrity (or lack thereof) in the White House.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
12. You rock x-g.o.p.er. And just one question for you as a pilot
Have you kept a personal log of all your flights since you began flying? I know some pilots and they all have. I assume that all pilots do. But I may be wrong? Thanks in advance.

Don

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x-g.o.p.er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. I used to...
For about the first 6 years or so, I religously kept a log book. After I passed 1200 hours and realized that I wasn't going to fly commercially, I let it lag. Didn't seem that important to me, because the flight hours I had were also tracked by my various units, ans they're pretty accurate. So I let the unit do it for me, and if I lost a few hours over the years, big deal.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. From your profile, I see you're not far from me.
I can figure the AFB.
Mind telling me what you're flying?
Old F-84 driver here.
Just 1/2 hour or so west of Pensacola.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
13. IS IT TIME TO LET VIET NAM GO ????
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 10:22 AM by Skittles
can you BELIEVE this is the question right now on the Washington Journal. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. That bastard Bush MADE his being AWOL an ISSUE when he strutted on an aircraft carrier IN UNIFORM like some sort of f***ing WAR HERO. The RNC talking points have evolved from:

1) it's not true
to
2) being in the Guard was not a bad thing (even though the topic is his FAILURE to be in the f***ing Guard)
to
3) here are his records (which failed to prove talking point number 1)
to
4) LET'S FORGET ABOUT VIET NAM.


These are the same people who spent EIGHT YEARS and 70 million dollars SNIFFING CLINTON'S CROTCH.

P.S. I AGREE EX-GOPER, YOU *DO ROCK*

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.
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PsN2Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
14. As a pilot
do you believe, that even in a large unit, that the other pilots didn't know every swinging dick that was driving planes. They keep up with this unit size being so large that the pilots all didn't know one another. If 10% of the members were actually pilots that still only means 80 pilots.
I've been out of the military for 40 years and could still produce any number of guys from every duty station I was at to swear I was there. AND they'd be telling the truth!!!!!!!!!
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x-g.o.p.er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I agree....n/t
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. You made my day!
Thanx, x-g.o.p.er!

When my boys were young, I made them repeat these phrases:

I'm sorry.
I was wrong.
I don't know.

Mom: Mother is raising gentlemen.
Boys: NOT SWINE!
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Same here.
Got out of the guard in '71.
I could call or e-mail half a dozen guys right now, who would vouch for the fact that I was there. And they'd probably go on to tell you some stories I wouldn't want 'em to.
;-)
And most of them don't share my politics, but JP-4 is thicker than politics.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
17. The issue for me is not "awol"
The issue of Bush's NG service and record is not about the term AWOL.

Instead the issue is about the lie of who Bush is, and how he is presented to a gullible public by a complicit media.

Bush, like Lloyd Bentson's son (a dem), and like Dan Quayle, another pols son, were given preferential treatment. Bush then abused this privledge he was already given.

Like all of those advising him, save Rummy, NONE OF THEM had to actually participate in any dangerous combat situation.

That they so easily lie to put our troops in harm's way is a question of character, to me.

The issue of who Bush is, as misrepresented by his flight suit "mission accomplished" bullshit and the way his daddy bailed him out of any real responsibility goes far beyond the NG incident.

It relates, to me, to his Harken Energy Company dealings. That he got an offshore international drilling concession in Bahrain when his company had no intn'l experience, and won that bid over experienced firms, and that he then claims he's a successful bizman when his daddy's buddies, including Osama's bro-in-law, 11% share holder in Harken, Khalid bin Mahfouz, made sure he looked successful, even when he wasn't...and even when he illegally failed to report "insider trading" on his own company.

It relates, to me, to his claims to have won the 2000 election when his brother and Katherine Harris used their offices to ILLLEGALLY disenfranchise tens of thousands of African Americans from the voter rolls in Florida, in violation of the Constitution and as a 'wink wink' to racists.

How many African Americans actually fought in wars, compared to Bush's cushy post...which he then could not even honor because he was too busy doing...what? coke?

It relates, to me, back to his "tough guy" stance for drug users. Anyone can make mistakes and have a substance abuse problem. But apparently you're only a criminal in this if you are not politically connected.

Jeb's daughter was convicted of crack cocaine possession THREE TIMES. If Noelle Bush were a black man, she would not be seeing the light of day for a loooong time. She served 10 days in prison, AFTER the residents of the rehab center had to be the ones to call police because the rehab center was afraid to confront her because of who her daddy is.

If Jeb were not in the Gov. Mansion, would he have lost his govt housing with a three time drug conviction in his household?

...THAT'S the sort of undemocratic, against the better angels of our country's philosophy that makes the AWOL story of issue to me.

And to any Bush supporter who wants to dismiss the issue, THOSE are the patterns of behavior which I want them to address, and then tell me how wonderful this man is.

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oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Rumsfeld
A peace time flyer.

180
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Go Raindog!
:yourock:
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justsam Donating Member (218 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
18. the records were released on Friday night because
less people liston to and read the news on the weekends. also Monday is a holiday so he gets a day of grace, hoping that it will go away and his trip to the race will take president over his lies..
The records could never be found and he didn't know where they were.. how stupid does Bush and the WH people think we are.
Why after 3 yrs does only Jed Clampett come foreword and be his witness, someone had to sell him all those books and magazines that he was reading while in Ala.-personally i don't think he can read.
Lets get the guy that stated he heard a conversation between two people to get Bushs record cleaned up..
This is not going to go away unless we let it.. so email all the ??s that you can think of to your favorite news station..
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. And it's rightly called a "document dump".
Old legal tactic, swamp them with papers.
Only trouble is, that's usually boxes and boxes.
This is a stack only a couple on inches high. Not enough to snow anyone.

Reporters are already saying that, with the exception of ONE dental record, there's nothing new here to support his claims.
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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
24. I like your style x gop-er
now if we could only get 'yer post count higher ;) Much looking forward to it, actually
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DinahMoeHum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
25. Thanks. Would you agree that in 1972, W was essentially in
a "no-show" job regarding his time in the NG in 1972? Just like the kind given by political hacks to errant kids of a powerful politician?


:evilfrown:
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x-g.o.p.er Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Looks that way
And the document dump seems to reinfoce that for me. Lots of meaningless documents with nothing in it to prove/disprove what he was doing. Bush hopes that the volume, not the content, of documents will put everything to rest.
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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
28. I Dig The Ex-Gop-er!
They would kick you right out of the GOP for ever admitting you were wrong about ANYTHING!! They have some kind of rule against it...

That business about Scott McClellan refusing to answer Helen Thomas's question about Community Service, I think that is definitely a key -- he got busted for something (drugs?) sounds like to me!
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
29. James R. Bath is also another key to this story
He was serving with Bush in the TANG and was also grounded for failing to get a physical at the same time. If you're not aware of the Bush/Bath/Bin Ladens/Saudi officials/BCCI, then I suggest you Google those words.
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
30. You truly are an 'ex-GOPer' now.

You've found the antidote to the "Bush is God" kool-aid. Maybe you could patent it and become rich and famous in the bargain.

Love this post, thanks for posting it. (Pretty soon I'm going to have to admit I was wrong about Kerry. Will follow your example.)

:yourock:
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