Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

In another thread, Ex-GOPer mentions that he's

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:36 AM
Original message
In another thread, Ex-GOPer mentions that he's
an active duty military pilot who has come to a change of heart in politics. This set me to thinking. Experiencing a war tends to get you down to issues of basic values, and liberalism is often forged in adversity. I know that I went to infantry duty in Vietnam with 4 years of college behind me and a "young fogy" conservative orientation (we didn't have the word "libertarian" in those days, but I was one anyway). What I saw and experienced in Vietnam was pretty awful. As soon as I got back into college after the army, I started getting the information I needed to understand the things I had seen in Vietnam, and I rapidly evolved into a leftist. Kerry is apparently another who went through a transformation due to the war.

Whatever torments the Gulf I vets are now suffering, they mostly fought a video-game war in which they didn't see much close-up carnage. Ditto with Kosovo.

Gulf II is the first war since Vietnam in which large numbers of American troops are having the kind of combat experiences of which post-traumatic stress disorder is born. I predict that it will also be the first war to flood the ranks of liberalism with its veterans. I think we're already starting to see this effect, with so many families beginning to protest what is happening to their sons and daughters.

Thoughts?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. I agree. I seen the same thing happen in the 60's and early 70's
Now with the Internet the same thing is happening at wide band speed.

Don

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Pretty likely.
I think if this trend keeps up, this will be one of the most unpopular wars in American history.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
coloradodem2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. It should be.
I knew back in 2002 that it was a mistake to go to Iraq and I know that it is a mistake now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
earthman dave Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. Good point
But how long is the "turnaround time", ie how long before those new-minted liberals get back into the political system in the US? They've got to survive, and finish their tour of duty before they can get back and vote. Will this have a positive effect quickly enough?

Also, a lot of those vets are gonna end up homeless if past statistics are anything to go by, and as you say, with PTSD. Will they be voters? Did the US shift to the left after vietnam? Individuals yes, but the country as a whole?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
4. I think you are correct Jackpine
when I was an airman it seemed to me that my fellow soldiers were conditioned to be conservatives but when I would press them on WHY their answers generally did not make sense. It is very sad, however, to think that it would take a war to wake them up. When I see the despair of Mari in another thread (her boy went to Iraq last night) I am reminded that the costs of such a war reach far and wide. After 60 years, my mum can still hear the bomb that killed one of her friends when she was a child in England. This latest travesty in Iraq is sure to make it clear where the interests of Bush Inc. are, to a LOT of people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. Good point
This is a "down and dirty" occupation, where insurgents keep the pot boiling. Lots of up close carnage and lots of time lying awake in bunkers at night to have the "gung ho war rhetoric" they were programmed with to start to be questioned. What am I doing here. We are killing and repressing these people, not liberating them. They don't want us here. They never attacked us. Why so much emphasis on protecting the oil. War profiteers won't give me a Kevlar vest. My buddy just got both legs blown off...for what? We aren't protecting our country, we are occuping a country that never attacked us and they don't want us there. How are we any different from Saddam's repression.

On those long dark scary nights, waiting for an RPG to be lobbed into your sleeping quarters, many an epiphany will be had.

Damn its sad that it takes so much carnage every couple of decades to produce enough people to insist that our craven government is not fit to lead.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
junker Donating Member (403 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. Very good analysis.. The 2 greatest horrors in Universe
of courese that the VNW was a govt driven war of choice in which lies are the motivating factor echos very well now.

And I do believe that the suffering of the poor kids of all ages on both sides of this blunder will profoundly fuck over both USofA and Iraq.

It is likely that many of the returnees will have under gone a very significant change in perspective. Many of the TV-conservatives (kids under 30 who merely parrot back the Faux position on things) that I know in the area are gone now, over to Iraq in the WA state guard units. The very very few emails coming back are laced with signficant language changes which indicate very high levels of stress....

I weep sometimes, out in the garden, at the passing thought of the suffering that has been visited upon all of us by this walk down the dumb side....

Looks like maybe we need to resurrect the counseling services of the VN days...for the returnees.

But let me say I agree, there are two great horrors on earth, one is when you discover that your friends have been killed and maimed in front of your eyes for a lie. The other is when you close your eyes at night and the faces of those you killed for that same lie come and visit....

may peace be upon you Jackpine, many of us share the pain.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fizzana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
7. An interesting aspect of thsi is that the military vote in November
could well be split 50/50. In 2000 I think it was over 80/20 in favor of Bush.

Doubly interesting is that the military vote is not being reflected in the polls we see. There are a few states where the military and veteran vote is fairly significant. If this vote causes one or two formerly red states to tip over to our side we'll be in great shape.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
8. This will have a more pronounced effect
because this is not even a draftee military, but a volunteer force
whose back has been broken by the party that claims to have its interests at hand. This is already having interesting effects, indeed.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
9. Very well put, Jackpine! I agree almost 100%
I believe that Kerry's political evolution was more opportunistic than spiritual and I also believe that whatever spiritual/moral political awakenings he may have had have long faded into the background of his political opportunism and status quo-ism for the wealthy coproate elites.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeatleBoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
10. I agree, check out this link...
Found this tidbit via the latest edition of Bartcop.com, the link is below

<snip>

"I was injured on patrol in Baghdad. Couple guys ambushed us. I've got nerve damage. A lot of pain. I took a lot of morphine. Readjusting. Getting my life back on track. I'm not going to do what I did before. Time to move on and find something else to do. I'm not going to what it was I did before. I was a Republican ... I'm going to be incredibly active in the Democratic Party once I get out."
--Pat Collins, who took shrapnel though his neck in Baghdad

Link here===>
http://www.channel4.com/news/2004/02/week_2/10_iraq2.html

See also ===> http://www.bartcop.com

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
11. a very astute observation, JR
this ill-advised invasion and occupation is going to scar this country and world for years to come in ways nobody can imagine right now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ewagner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
12. Well said Jackpine
I went through much of the same thing although I never saw combat.

I saw the stupidity and crassness of the backwaters of the war and it colored my attitude for good.

I have to take a slightly different opinion from one of the other posters though, I think Kerry was probably spiritually transformed but like most of us, after the war and after Nixon's resignation, we assimilated into the rest of society...marriage, josbs, kids, all those things tend to dampen the spiritual side. I think that's what happened to Kerry.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
14. I think you have something there. Good thought-provoking post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
15. Locking
Rules to start discussion threads in the General Discussion forum

7. Discussion topics that mention any or all of the Democratic presidential primary candidates are not permitted in the General Discussion forum, and instead must be posted in the General Discussion: 2004 Primary forum.

You may repost without the mention of Kerry or another DU member.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation,
DU moderator
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sun May 19th 2024, 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC