Kids going to the bathroom a right? Privilege, says NJ School

[DuctapeFatwa]

When you gotta go, you gotta go. But you can't always, at least not here. Some middle school students are avoiding soft drinks, water and other liquids during school hours for fear of an urgent need to answer nature's call.



Under a new policy at the Lawrence Middle School, seventh- and eighth-graders are allowed to leave class for the bathroom a maximum of 15 times a month. As a result, some are afraid to use up their bathroom passes too quickly and end up with a full bladder and nowhere to go.

School officials defend the policy as a way to ensure safety, security and order. But some parents say the system goes too far. The right to go to the bathroom, they say, is a health and civil rights issue and as taxpayers, they think it is a freedom they pay for.


"When my son Matthew used all his passes, he was then told he couldn't go to the bathroom," parent Susan Gregory told The Times of Trenton. "We called the school and were told the bathroom is a privilege, not a right.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=817&ncid=757&e=10&u=/ap/20040219/ap_on_fe_st/school_bathroom_breaks

[LoZoccolo]

1. Fifteen?!

Man I was happy if a teacher gave us five!

This wasn't in the fifties or something either - more like 1986-1988!

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. This is about 15 times a month (nt)

[LoZoccolo]

59. Yeah!

I forgot to mention, this is one teacher that would give us five passes a year. Most of them didn't have a policy at all (the implication being, only in dire emergencies), but we managed to get it done between classes - the most you'd wait is an hour, and isn't that enough really?

I'm not trying to be like "kids these days are spoiled" - I don't really care how many passes they get - it just strikes me as odd that they can't take care of that between classes and it gets to the point where it becomes a huge conflict covered in the news media.

But if a parent calls up and complains, I'm even more shocked that they'd come back with this "privelege" stuff though and don't just let them.

[FlaGranny]

88. Between classes?

When I was in school, between classes was 3 minutes. Many classes were clear across campus, and by the time I was walking into the next class, there were seconds to spare, usually. My lunch "hour" was 25 minutes, which included a couple of minutes to get there, 5 minutes for standing in line, another few minutes to get back to class, including locker stops for books, usually left me about 10 minutes to actually eat. I trained myself to eat VERY fast and still, to this day, have a problem with eating too fast. I also trained myself NOT to go to the bathroom. I left home at 7 a.m. and returned home at 4 p.m. and never, ever went to the bathroom at school. There wasn't time. I drank nothing all day except for a small drink at lunch time. There were many days I made it home just in the nick of time.

Grammar school was okay, though, they lined us up twice a day, once in the morning and once in the afternoon for bathroom trips.

I guess things haven't changed much.

[Scairp]

19. Deleted

[RapidCreek]

95. That's what the ole man would have told me to do...and I would

have too.

RC

[einniv]

2. She should tell her kid to just whiz on the floor the next time and

see how they like that.

[thermodynamic]

7. I like that!

:yourock:

:D

[Castilleja]

30. My son did just that!!

He came home telling me that his shop teacher would not allow him to go to the bathroom, and had him go to another room to some work. He then proceeded to pee all over the room, on the chairs, floor..etc.. I was shocked, and my jaw hit the floor for about 2 seconds, after which I laughed for a long while! Never heard anything about it, from the school. This is wrong for them to do. They are limiting all kinds of things like this for "safety", it is becoming too much, in my opinion. Going to the bathroom is not a priveledge, it is a physical neccesity (sp?)

[fujiyama]

37. Good for your son!

HA! God, I wish I had those kinda guts when I was in school. That's great!

[Broken]

3. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ya' gotta teach the young'ens obedience and control so they don't get too uppity when they set out to work in the 'free' market.

[SummerGrace]

14. Training for our future

Houston Chronicle
1 August 2003

Supermarket cashiers in Argentina are being forced to wear diapers to keep them from taking toilet breaks at work, a union says.

Female cashiers in western Mendoza province must wear adult diapers in case "cold, nerves, pressure or stress" provoke incontinence, union official Jorge Cordova told local news agency Diarios y Noticias on Thursday.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/bizarre/2022792

http://globalisation.org.au/html/modules.php?name=News&new_topic=22

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. Reason No. 6,578

To home school your kids if you can.

[kath]

8. Yeppers! You beat me to it !-- I was just going to post "Yet ANOTHER

reason I'm glad we homeschool".

Schools treat kids like shit.

[thinkingwoman]

55. me three

homeschooling and happy to have our kid focusing on important things like math, history, and current events, rather than how bad they have to pee.

What will public schools think of next? It's ridiculous.

[qanda]

82. Man, you all beat me to it...

So glad I have the option to home school my children. This is utterly ridiculous.

[rman]

36. maybe if this'd be typical of schools, which it isn't

-

[fujiyama]

39. This IS pretty typical...

Public schools treat children like cattle at best, shit at worst.

This sort of behavior is typical in the new america, where cops can stick guns in front of kids' faces at school based on a vague "fear of drugs".

God what happened to this country?!

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. No, not typical

I don't think most schools are this authoritarian. I do think most urban schools would instead focus on failing to educate the students.

[July]

54. Questions for you

Why don't you think most schools are this authoritarian? I ask because my two children have, over the years, attended 4 different public schools in two different states, and I've found them all to be too focused on their own authority, and I've seen some rules and some teachers that go too far.

Also, why do you make your generalizing comment on urban schools? Lawrence, New Jersey, is not urban(I live about 30 miles from there). Secondly, not all urban schools fail to educate students. What are you driving at?

[rman]

74. if schools are 'broken' then why do away with it instead of fixing it?

there's obviously a problem with education, but that problem has causes and causes can be fixed.
i don't see how education at home would be much better: who'll do the teaching? the parents? don't they have day jobs? do they know what a good teacher knowns? will they be held to educational standards? who will keep a check on that, who will visit all those one-pupil schools that homes have then become, who will pay them and would that be cost effective? plus the kids would have no interaction with peers.

i say, if you'd want to totally destroy education, home schooling would be the way to go.

[LeahMira]

77. Agreed... support the public schools!

there's obviously a problem with education

What is it? Really. I'm not trying to be a wise-ass, but thousands of kids graduate every year and manage to get decent jobs or go on to college or an apprenticeship. If it were true that all the kids in all the schools were failing, then I'd also say there was a problem, but the fact is that even in the supposedly worst schools some kids do very well.

who'll do the teaching? the parents? don't they have day jobs? do they know what a good teacher knowns?

In fact, since I work with teachers and some home-schooler parents, I can say that some parents do very fine jobs at home. Some of them are former teachers, but most have organized into some home-schoolers association or group and they exchange ideas, methods, materials, and so on. Others, though, are not quite up to snuff.

You are right, though, in noting the fact that many of these home-schoolers don't need to work. Their income provides them with enough to live on comfortably with only one "breadwinner." Congratulations to them. They are the lucky ones. Most parents both have to work to make ends meet, and it's only the more fortunate ones who can afford to home school. Probably, though, there is some relationship between a comfortable income and a good educational background. Being well educated doesn't necessarily mean that a person can teach well, but it is a point in their favor.

will they be held to educational standards? who will keep a check on that

Again, if they are part of a home-school association, they do give the standardized tests to their children. Of course in a one-to-one setting, it's more likely that a child will do well testing, but they sometimes gather in some central location and take the tests together. It varies.

The real test, though, comes when the home-schooled student has to apply to a college or wants to attend a public grade or high school at some point. Some do very well, but others do not. A whole lot depends on why the decision to home-school was made in the first place, and those reasons vary widely.

plus the kids would have no interaction with peers.

I personally think that's the biggest drawback. Home-schoolers will tell you that their children interact with their peers after school hours, in the activities kids are involved with or just in the neighborhood. I've seen that these kids seem to relate better to adults than to their peer group and that they aren't as well equipped to deal with the normal back and forth that happens with groups of kids. They really do need to learn how to get along with all kinds of people because they will have to do that later on "in real life." Even if home-schoolers imagine that their kids will eventually work and socialize only with a "certain class of people" those kids are going to have to get along with the guys that mow their lawns and the young kids in the office mail room. Some of these home-schooled students have no clue. Probably they will learn, but the hard way.

[thermodynamic]

6. Why not punish the guilty and leave the innocent kids alone?

There are better ways of discipline. What this "school" is doing is unnecessarily cruel.

30 times a month would be better.

Why not just say 1 time a day?

Indeed, what will this limitation really accomplish anyway? A furthering of underwear and clothing sales? Stain remover sales? :shrug:

Better yet, you dipshit of a school, punish those proven to be guilty of abusing the system and leave the innocent kids alone for golly gosling sakes!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't treat EVERYBODY as being guilty, F the idea some of them might be innocent...

WTF happened to hall monitors and such anyway?

Time for the local diabetics to sue their ass...

[blondeatlast]

46. Damn straight. When I was teaching, I knew the "abusers"

and dealt with them accordingly. If Sue, who never requested a bathroom break before, requested one, she got the pass and went to the nearest bathroom. IF Jane, who abused the "privilege, asked, she was sent to the bathroom near the office, where the secretaries had to sign her back in (unless she looked desperate, which she oddly never did!).

It didn't take Jane too long before she started going before class.

BTW, I found out I had diabetes in 2nd grade and you can be darn sure my mom, who was on the school board, would have been all over them on this one.

This is the kind of stealth politics so prevalent on school boards. If you care about kids, whether a parent or not, DUers especially need to learn about their school boards. It is very common for the fundies to get on school boards--VERY common.

[depakid]

9. If a 7th or 8th grader ended up peeing their pants

I believe that they would (and should) have a cliam against the school district for the tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress. Moreover, if the district's policy ever causes some child urological harm- I think that the principal, Nancy Pitcher and anyone else who is responsible for the imposition of this policy should be held personally liable.

[LiberalFighter]

33. Yes!!! I wonder who the idiots that came up with idea?

[CheshireCat]

10. Going to the bathroom is a PRIVILEDGE?????

I don't think so!

If a child has to urinate, not allowing them to do so is TORTURE!

I had a weak bladder as a kid. It was terrible! I had to urinate at least once every two hours. This is a health problem; it made my life miserable.

This principle needto be working at Gitmo!

[DuctapeFatwa]

18. Once you agree that it's ok to torture some people, it's a lot easier to

make that transition to torturing the next group, and in this case, the next group happens to be school kids. This is a public school, parents with money can take their kids out.

[yankeedem]

11. Leave class 15 times a month

In my middle school, there were 50 minute periods with a 5 minute break between, which could be used to go to the bathroom if needed. If you need to go to the bathroom more than once an hour, several times a day, you really need to see a doctor.

This principal probably is tired of seeing the same students roaming the halls every period and is trying to stop it. Of course, the same parents that cry about their kid not being able to get a bathroom pass EVERY HOUR are the same ones crying when their Johnny (or Matthew) can't read (because he isn't in class, maybe?)

[DrWeird]

20. Well, yes. Unless of course...

that five minutes isn't enough time because there's a line, or you have to walk to the other side of the school, or the teacher is habitually late dismissing class.

"Of course, the same parents that cry about their kid not being able to get a bathroom pass EVERY HOUR are the same ones crying when their Johnny (or Matthew) can't read (because he isn't in class, maybe?)"

Really? What about the pediatric urologist in the article who says this policy doesn't make any sense.

[juajen]

22. My grandchildren have weighted in on this problem

One, my granddaughter, says 5 minutes is not enough time to go, as the bathrooms are very crowded during this time and if you are late getting to class, you get in trouble. My grandson just holds it. He's always running to the bathroom the minute he gets in from school. Granddaughter is 11 yrs. old; grandson is 14 yrs old. I think this is terrible, but I remember not going to our school bathrooms much as a kid myself. They were too dirty. I always felt uncomfortable, etc. Not sure what the answer is, but I know if one of them asked permission to go to the bathroom, I would expect it to be given. Whatever happened to bathroom monitors? They would certainly know if a kid was pretending to need to go.

[LiberalFighter]

34. It also takes longer for girls

I work in a factory and I had to relieve workers on the line. Generally, it would take about 5 minutes or 10 minutes plus/minus 1 or 2 minutes depending on the requirement.

To expect children to use the bathroom within the 5 minute time is wrong. In addition, people are creatures of habit. Meaning that they have a schedule for communing with nature. The same was with the workers that I relieved for that purpose. I knew who needed to and the time period.

[Castilleja]

31. How about if you are a young girl?

With menstraual concerns? I know personally all about this. Yes, stuff happens in the bathroom, but people have got to realize that you cannot prevent everything a kid mioght do that you don't like. At my kids school's, the passing periond has been pared down each year, it is now 4 min. I believe. My kids no longer visit their locker, for fear of being late, as there is not enough time to run to the locker, go to the bathroom, get to class before the bell rings.

[LiberalFighter]

35. When I was in high school it was 10 minute break between classes

[blondeatlast]

47. There is a humane remedy--see my post #46.

[hlthe2b]

12. Another related trend: schools are no longer filling soap dispensers

because of concern over bathroom vandalism; as a result many kids don't wash their hands after using the restroom nor learn the importance of hand-washing. This can only help the explosive spread of enteric (stomach) viruses, bacterial infections and influenza. This has been a trend throughout the country, that public health officials have had great difficulty countering.


Seems to me, we need to address some behavioral issues, rather than jumping on the convenient "solution," which can only add to the problems.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

13. creepy

This is public school right? I hope the teacher's union stops this.

[Spirochete]

15. They usually didn't let me go at all

in jr. high school. of course, that was probably because I seldom came back...

[2004Donkeys]

16. I'd piss on the floor

just for kicks of course

[Nobody]

17. Why don't we

send the kids to school with two sets of clothes. All the kids urinate (or better yet defacate) in their clothes and leave the soiled clothing on the desk of the idiot who made this ridiculous decision.

If you have to pee, you have to pee.

I can see problems with younger children, the ones who JUST LEARNED TO USE THE TOILET. Somehow five year olds in diapers isn't very appealing.

All together now,

P! U!

on edit: I know that this is a middle school we're talking about, but who's to say some idiot won't try to impose this on grade schoolers?

[Pithlet]

29. My elementary school did.

I can remember we only had certain scheduled bathroom breaks, and if you had to go at any other time, tough. I can remember having to go so bad I couldn't walk. Also, none of the stalls in the bathrooms had doors, so it was humiliating anyway, even when you were allowed to go. I thought maybe this kind of stuff didn't happen anymore. Many children's bladders are still growing.

Sheesh, maybe homeschooling isn't such a bad idea after all.

[ikojo]

21. Even at some workplaces going to the restroom is

heavily monitored. There was a thread last summer about grocery store workers not being allowed to urinate regularly and some being forced to wear depends.

I have a book called Void Where Prohibited and it's about restroom breaks on company time. Here is a blurb about the book...

http://www.metroped.org/PRI/support/WVP2.htm

Void Where Prohibited Revisited: The Trickle-Down Effect of OSHA's At-Will Bathroom-Break Regulation
by Marc Linder

Even before it appeared at the end of 1997, Void Where Prohibited: Rest Breaks and the Right to Urinate on Company Time had mobilized public opinion to pressure the Occupational Safety and Health Administration to abandon its preposterous position that its industrial sanitation standard, which requires employers to provide toilets, did not obligate them to let workers use those toilets. On April 6, 1998, OSHA finally issued a Memorandum declaring that the "standard requires employers to make toilet facilities available so that employees can use them when they need to do so." Thus with a few keystrokes, OSHA had created a right for tens of mil-lions of workers to stop work when they need to void. Or had it? Was this establishment of at-will bathroom breaks worth the cyberspace it was posted in? How do labor-protective regulations get enforced in a world of: powerful employers opposed to government interference with their control of employees' time; workers, 90 percent of whom in the private-sector are nonunion, afraid to assert their rights or file a complaint; and an understaffed OSHA that fails to pursue complaints vigorously (or, in the unique case of California OSHA, refuses even to comply with its obligation to insure that its standard and interpretation are "'at least as effective' as the Federal standard")?

[PVnRT]

23. But teachers and the union are the problem with schools today!

:eyes:

[bhunt70]

24. does it make a difference that it is stated "allowed to leave class"

Truthfully, I didn't leave class 15 times a month to go to the bathroom. You have a few minutes between each class, lunch, before and after school.

While I don't think it's something they should regulate, some people have smaller bladders or whatever, I do think leaving class 15 times a month (thats approximately 22 school days) is excessive.

just an alternate view.

[SemperEadem]

97. can the children then sue the school board if they develop

urinary or renal problems later on in their lives? After years and year of this kind of unnatural, torturous act forced upon their developing organs?

So, the school board is now a medical entity that has decided with a degree of medical certainty that denying a young, developing human body from hydrating and dispensing of waste through urine in the course of a 6-7 hour school day does not cause any ill effects? What arrogance.

[Lurking Dem]

25. Every diabetic kid in the school

should file a law suit.

[Silverhair]

86. If a diabetic kid, in middle school, has too LEAVE CLASS

that often, (Remember - They can go over lunch and between classes.) then the kid's diabetes is NOT under control and you have a very serious problem that the kid's parents need to know about, and the school nurse. Generally, a teacher will know about any special needs that a kid has.

[Lurking Dem]

94. I remember the good old days

when none of us was "in control" because we didn't know what control was. All we had was urine testing and one or two shots a day.

Then there was pre-diagnosis when there were a couple of times I didn't make it to the bathroom (had to wait for hall pass, etc.) in time. It was horrifying.

ANYTHING can throw your blood sugars out of whack and puberty makes glucose control very difficult for many.

[Silverhair]

96. But this is now, not then.

And almost always a teacher is going to know about any genuine special needs a child might have. Most shools and teachers have a healthy amount of common sense.

I am a diabetic, type II. The last time I was substitute teaching (Yesterday), my blood sugar started plummeting, and I started to feel the shakes coming on. A quick check showed a reading of 77. The kids were reading an assignment, so I quickly explained to them that I wasn't having a snack, but was a diabetic and needed some sugar right away. I then at a very small can of fruit cocktail that I had in my bag for such an emergency. Then I used it as a teaching point and talked about diabetes for a little bit.

[HEyHEY]

26. Wow, a natural function is not a right?

IIIIIITTT"""SSSS Bedpan time!

Bring em to class.

[seleff]

27. in GA this is sop

Our school says bathroom passes "for emergencies"
only.  In practice, most teachers I know say it's ok for a
student to go after they drop off their books. Then not in the
first or last 15 min of the period.  Several of my colleagues
have suggested issuing a set of passes, like 3-5 FOR THE
SEMESTER.  If I issue a student a bathroom pass and he/she
goes off and gets in a fight, or gets into some other trouble,
I can be written up and possibly sued by a parent!  In
practice though many and probably most requests are real needs
I have students who fake needing a pass nearly every day and
they go off and: 1) catch a smoke (cigarette or grass); 2)
meet their honey for a quicky grope or sex; 3) use their cell
phone to call a classmate (and disrupt that class as well) or
4) just meet a friend who is doing the same.  Most of these
kids are failing every class except PE and will never get out
of the 9th grade.  Also try teaching with 10-20 requests to go
to the bathroom every 50 min period.  Once the kids have
disrupted the flow of the lesson, it's downhill and you end up
with paper fights, simple refusal to do any reading,
assignment, general clowning, assault, etc.  To anyone who has
not tried teaching in an urban/semi-urban 7-12 classroom, you
have no idea what the challenge (and pressure) is like for
student, faculty and administration.

[davsand]

28. I was told it can lead to medical problems to wait.

I was always told that it is not a good idea to hold it if you need to urinate or defecate. Holding urine can lead to urinary tract infections and holding feces can lead to everything from piles to even intestinal blockages...

If my kid went there I think maybe I'd be getting her a Doctor's note and then we'd be off to court if it was challenged after that. If they feel they can't control those kids then maybe they better take a long look at the administration rather then trying to limit access to restrooms.

Sometimes I am amazed at how really stupid supposedly educated adults can be.

Laura

[Hippo_Tron]

32. If it's a public school then they can just walk out of class...

They can't really expell you.

[roguevalley]

41. A high school teacher here gives his kids a toilet seat lid as a hall

pass to go the john. Needless to say, they don't go in his class.

[Desertrose]

38. this is horrendous...kids don't drink enough water as it is...

I can't imagine someone telling me going to the bathroom is a privilege...
This is just another sad way to control & intimidate kids....

bloody hell this infuriates me!

Kids don't drink enough water as it is and now they are trying not to have to pee for 6+ hours?? The body needs water...24/7...no wonder our society is so FUBAR...dehydration is not a healthy state for the body and chronic dehydration can lead to serious illnesses.

Man...someone should oraganize a preotest or something...damn! So glad my kids are outta school & that we homeschooled as much as we did!

:grr:

DR

[Selwynn]

40. It's stupid, its misguided, but its also not a big deal

Unless this is unlike middle school I attened (which, I suppose it very well could be) there are like breaks between each class to go from one class to another, plus lunch, plus in addition to that, fifteen different times a month where if you can't go any of those times, you can go again.

The worst thing that would happen if you used up all your "passes" would be you'd wait till the end of one class and use the bathroom on your way to the next class.

This is not like we're talking about kids sitting in a room for 8 hours and not being allowed to use the bathroom. When I was in middle school, we had 7 classes in a day. You can go the bathroom before school, after 1st, after 2nd, after 3rd, after 4th, during lunch, after 5th, after 6th, after school and STILL have 15 passes (probably for each class period, but maybe not) to use the bathroom besides all that.

Even if you only had four classes a day like how my high school worked (four 1.5 hour classes, switch at the half year, take four more) you'd still have more than enough time to use the bathroom each day. Sounds like what was really going on is what me and my friends did in 4th grade, and that was ask to go to the bathroom almost every day at the same time to go screw around.

Now having said that, its a stupid solution to the problem. And I hate policies that punish the innocent instead of focusing on the guilty. But it is not tourture, or dictatorial or anything sensationalistic. It's stupid at best, but little more.

[Katarina]

44. Nope

I watched a mother and son from this school on Keith Olbermann last night and these students are not permitted to go to the bathroom during class changes. I'm not sure about lunch but I do know they were asked about class change.

It's just not healthy. Not to mention girls having their periods need to go to the bathroom more than once a day. 15 times a month doesn't even equal out to once a day. I told my husband the parents need to form a group and keep track of this principal and make sure SHE only goes 15 times a month!

My son is in 8th grade now but when he was in kindergarten he had a teacher that only let them go at "designated" times. Needless to say, alot of kids had accidents in that class. They were 5 year olds! To expect children to pee on demand is just plain ridiclous. It's a stupid rule and it punishes every child in that school instead of someone taking the time and responsibility of finding out who the real troublemakers are.

[blondeatlast]

50. Not between class changes? That IS ridiculous. nt

[skippysmom]

61. I saw that interview as well

And I was also under the impression that they were not allowed to go during class changes.

I just think it's an overreaction. Why can't it be left to the teachers' discretion whether a kid can go to the bathroom? I hate these blanket rules that end up punishing all kids for what some kids are doing in their bathroom breaks.

[Silverhair]

69. But if it is treated as a right, then the "troublemaker" isn't...

a troublemaker any more. He becomes a child that is vigorously using his "rights". And you get the entire middle school class having to run to the restroom at every class and all the kids running the halls.

Schools require order to be able to teach. That is just the way the real world is.

[PVnRT]

71. In the real world

workers go on strike for the "privilige," as you seem to think it is, to go to the bathroom and take a piss. Why are you and others so eager to flog everyone for the transgressions of a few? Why not round those assholes up instead of doing this overreaction bullshit?

I'm curious, do you work in a job there in the "real world" where you are not allowed to use the bathroom except at designated times?

[Silverhair]

81. Let's address your question in the PAST TENSE.

Have I every worked in a job that I wasn't able to leave to take a leak? Have you ever worked on the drill floor of an oil drilling rig when you are making a trip, or running casing? Or in the cockpit of a military plane in the air? I have. If you will notice my "handle" you might conclude something about my age and present employment. (I have a Private Investigators Liscense, but I actually don't do it hardly anymore. Next year I probably won't bother to renew it.)

I understand that assembly line workers have to get a replacement to take a leak. Hey, you can't just shut the entire assembly line down. That would lose thousands in production for each whizz. Nothing would get produced and everybody would be out of work. So you have to do the replacement bit.

And if it is a "right" for a twelve year old to go when he wants to, then he can't abuse the right, because a right - by defination - can't be abused. So the kid that claims he has to go every 30 minutes is just vigorously claiming his rights.

Have you ever been a teacher in a junior high school?

[SoCalDem]

42. Without reading the other replies, I'll weigh in here

When I was in school (in the olden days) we had "scheduled" bathroom breaks.. In grade school, classes took turns, and we lined up in the hall and went in 4 or 5 at a time.. We had a break just before recess and then after lunch..

Any "emergencies" were accomodated by having a hall monitor accompany you to the bathroom..

In junior high we were allowed to use the restroom, during class changes and lunch ONLY.. If you were later getting to class because you went to the bathroom, you had to stop at the office for an admit slip..

High school was the same way..only during lunch or class changes..

I think the "pass" thing is dumb.. Common sense should prevail..

If a teacher has 25-30 students, she would have total chaos if kids could use the bathroom anytime they "wanted" to..

Unless you have a medical problem, it should present no problem..

If kids use the restroom before they head to class 7:30 am-ish..go to classes until 11 or so, that's not a long time to be "bathroom-deprived".. They are not sitting in class drinking big gulps..

Lunchtime(bathroom time) and then they are out of school 2-3 hours later..

That's not a really long time..

I think the regimentation of it with the passes would be the problem here..

[blondeatlast]

51. Thanks--there is common sense here!

Teachers MUST have some control over the class, otherwise no one's kid gets the education they deserve.

Actually, 15 times a month is not that excessive, IF and only IF, the children are allowed bathroom breaks at lunch before scool, possibly between classes. By middle school, kids should have enough sense to address the issue on their own.

[justsam]

43. school officials have gotten

entirely out of control, at our school they have taken the doors off the toilet stalls so that a person going to the bath rm has no privacy

[gristy]

48. It never even crossed my mind to "go to the bathroom" during class

when I was in school. I went in between class or during break. I am somewhat baffled by the reaction here. The restriction appears to be on going during a class.

[Silverhair]

49. I side with the teachers on this one.

I substitute teach in the public schools, and if it is known that a teacher will let kids leave class to use the restroom, EVERY kid has to go. It becomes a game to get out of class. Sorry, but that's the way it works in the real world - not the ivory tower world of idealized rights.

So in junior high, I don't give bathroom breaks. (The lower grades are handled by planned mass bathroom breaks for everybody.) In regular high school, I start allowing them again as by that time they are more mature and don't play the game anymore.

But in junior high, let one go, and every single one of the others needs to go.

[blondeatlast]

52. Very true. I taught eighth graders who were in a position to know better.

As a teacher, I'm sure you have become aware of the difference between a child who really HAS to go, and a child who has to "go." I'm sure you would not deny a desperate child a pass under any circumstances, I never did.

Not something that is difficult to tell.

[Silverhair]

53. True. It is pretty easy to tell the difference. n/t

[Katarina]

56. So my question is then...

can you do that? Can you limit yourself to going to the bathroom to less than once a day while in school? And I'm talking not during class changes either because that's the rules at the school in question.

[blondeatlast]

57. Please don't knock it till you've been there. I have.

These are not grade schoolers. By the age of 12-14, nearly every child should have developed the physical, although perhaps not the mental maturity, to have a nearly adult level of bladder control (as teachers, we are required to be well educated in developmental psychology).

I have never seen a school where children were not given ample OPPORTUNITY to use the bathroom during breaks.

Besides--if they need to go during class more than 15 times in a month, they need medical care; I know. It was discovered I had insulin-dependent diabetes that way, in 2nd grade.

It's a distraction every time, it's unfair to kids who don't abuse it.

I don't often leave my desk to go; it's done on breaks and lunch.

[Katarina]

58. it's done on breaks and lunch

and there you go...breaks. I'm not knocking anyone and I was certainly not rude to anyone. I asked a simple question. At least you get a break. These kids don't.

[Silverhair]

68. Yes, they do get breaks.

There is plenty of time between classes, and there is lunch time.

[Katarina]

70. Do you even read anything I write??

At the school in question - they are NOT allowed to go between classes according to one of the parents interviewed on MSNBC last night. I can't write it any plainer than that.

[Silverhair]

84. Please note what the original article said.

It said: Under a new policy at the Lawrence Middle School, seventh- and eighth-graders are allowed to leave class for the bathroom a maximum of 15 times a month.

So we are talking about leaving class, NOT between class. I am extremely skeptical that the interviewed parent was correctly stating the case.

[Silverhair]

67. You are overstating the case.

Less than once a day????? Excuse me but they get to eat lunch and can go over lunch break. That's at least once per day. And at every school I have ever known you can go between classes. How long does it take to pee??? And at the school in question, they are limited to the number of times during a class that they can go. They can only leave fifteen times from a class in a month.

They don't forfiet all of the other times they can go. I you demand that it is a right for a kid to go when they want to, then you will have almost every kid getting up and running the halls during every class. You lose control of the class that way. I know. When I first taught in junior high as a substitute, I tried being very easy and let the kids go as they said they needed to. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE ONE WENT, and the class was nothing but kids coming and going, and missing part of the work, and then asking about the missed part so I had to backtrack while writing hall passes, etc.
Then next time I was real strict and nobody has wet their pants on me yet, and we get some teaching done.

[Katarina]

73. I'm not overstating a thing.

15 breaks a month - 30 days in a month - take away 8 days for weekends, heck I'll give you 10 just to be a good sport still leaves 20 or 21 days left. That is not even giving the kids a bathroom break, during classes, for a full month of school. And I'll say it again for oh maybe the 5th time, they aren't allowed to go between class changes. Maybe lunch, I will admit I don't remember but they definitely said not during class change.

I have 3 kids in school. One in Elementary, one in Middle and one in High school. Every year I see the schools take more and more away from the kids. There should be respect both ways. Taking bathroom privileges away from pre-teens and teens is ridiculous and do you think it's going to help matters? No, it's going to make the kids resentful and rebellious.

Question - Are you limited on how many times you can go to the bathroom at school? Would you like it?

[Silverhair]

85. Do your kids go to school on Saturday & Sunday too????

Five school days a week, four weeks in a month, that's 20 days. At two more days because most months have 30 days. Of course some months the extra days will be weekends, so I am being generous in an average of 22 days a month. Unless your kids to to school seven days a week. Do they????

The article says that they aren't allowed to leave class. It says nothing about lunch or between classes. I have known many people to get their stories wrong when talking to a camera, so I don't trust the statement of the person interviewed.

There is plenty of time to go between classes and at lunch. I would require stronger proof than one parent talking to a camera to convince me that the school doesn't allow restroom visits between classes.

When I am teaching, my restroom breaks are between classes if needed, or at lunch.

If you want it as a right for any kid to leave class any time they want to, as often as they want to, you WILL lose control of the class, and have a bunch of kids roaming the halls. That is the real world.

[Katarina]

87. Here you go

Since you don't "trust" the parent on MSNBC, I took the liberty of doing some research. The parent was correct.

<snip>
The restroom doors are locked between classes, but she said students can use the bathrooms during gym and lunch.
http://www.nj.com/news/times/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1076927729255190.xml

So it's ok for you to go to the restroom between classes but certainly not the children. You and I can sit here going back and forth about this all day and we won't come to an agreement on this. Maybe children would respect adults more if they were given some respect back. And rules like this aren't respectful at all. They are degrading.

[Silverhair]

90. OK, that article does state that they can't go between classes.

That is sufficient to change my opinion. The original article was shorter and only talked about leaving class, which is an entirely different thing from not being allowed to go between classes.

To restrict the kids from going between classes does create a big problem. This school has not used a common sense approach.

They talked about bomb threats. Appearently one of the kids there is seriously disturbed.

BTW - Do your kids go to school on Saturday & Sunday too? You were basing your figures on the ENTIRE month, which would include the weekends.

[Katarina]

92. Go back and read my post again

I said 30 days minus weekends. Like I said before...do you even read the full post? And now that it has come down to us sparring with each other over how a post is written I think I will bow out. I made my argument against the school policy. That's all I need to do. I'm not going to get petty about how a post is worded.

[LizW]

76. "planned mass bathroom breaks"

<giggle> That just brings a funny picture to mind. :)

A agree with you, Silverhair, this issue just requires a little common sense and attention to the kids involved.

My son's middle school gives out a certain number (6-8 I think) of passes to each child at the beginning of the 9 weeks. They can use these passes if there is not enough time to use the restroom between classes. If they use up the passes before the 9 weeks is over, they can ask for more, but the teacher has a chat with them about why they need them. (This is done privately.)

As an added incentive not to go out of class unnecessarily, any unused passes can be turned in at the end of the 9 weeks for special "points". There are other ways to get these "points" also, like picking up litter in the halls and other "good citizenship" stuff. At the end of the 9 weeks, the homeroom on each hall with the most combined "points" gets a treat of some kind, like ice cream or popcorn.

Sure it's bribery, but whatever works, you know?

[Silverhair]

83. True, schools need to have room to use common sense.

That sounds like a great way to handle the problem. A lot of the problem is that people often don't want to give the schools the flexibility to handle problems and want to make court cases out of it.

[lapislzi]

60. Hmmm....wonder what the Coke folks think about this?

Coke and Pepsi are heavily represented in schools. If sales fall off, what then?

[EV1Ltimm]

62. I guess this means ...

the school officials have the privilege of mopping up piss as well.

[Vernunft II]

63. A question about this

Here in Germany there are always short breaks of 2 or 5 minutes between classes (that usually last 45 minutes) with 2 longer breaks of about 15 minutes thrown in every 3 classes or "Schulstunden" as it´s called here.

If it´s anywhere near that in the US I don´t think it´s asked too much of children that age to train their bladder in a way that they can go between classes, is it ?

[kiahzero]

64. Did anyone else hear "We're preparing you for college" all the time?

What happened to that?

Oh... right... it was complete and total bullshit.

The problem with public highschools is not the teachers. It's the administrators. Perhaps it's just my experience, but the administrators in the middle and high school I went to would make stupid decision after stupid decision. Let's see what I can remember, just related to bathrooms.

For instance, bathroom doors were closed and locked, because they were "smoking havens" - this made it nigh impossible to both use the restroom and get to class. As another poster mentioned, soap was rare, since refilling the containers might lead to someone wasting a small amount - the same with the paper towels. At one point, the school was investigating some vandalism or something, and the administration was shocked... shocked... to hear that 10% of the school (roughly 100 people) had gone to the bathroom over the course of an hour.

I could come up with more, but I'd be going off topic.

[Brian Sweat]

65. Unlike many of you, I went to school in America.

In elementary school, middle school and high school, if I need to go to the bathroom, I raised my hand and the teacher gave me a pass. In fact, there were times when I tried to wait to the end of class, but the teacher made me go because it was obvious that I had to. You people grew up in a different country than I did.

[Pithlet]

89. All schools are the same in America?

I went to school in America. Most of the schools I went to did not restrict bathroom breaks, but the elementary school I went to did, to the point that it became a health issue for me. All it takes is one heavy handed principle or administrator to make such ridiculous rules as leaving the doors off the stalls and taking the soap out, and only allowing using the restroom during specified breaks. There were only 2 a day. Because everyone had to go at the same time, if you were unlucky enough to be at the back of the line, you didn't even get to go.

Restricting bathroom breaks is ridiculous. I don't see how hard it could be to tell the difference between those who are abusing it, and those who truly need to go.

[Astarho]

66. Remembering my days in school

especially middle and high school, some teachers had some anal-retentive (no pun intended) rules about going to the bathroom. But most were pretty easy about it. While doing classwork, most teachers would allows students to go one at a time and they had to be back within a few minutes (the ones who stayed out too long would get it from the teacher as well as their fellow students). The only time a teacher got pissed off and would not let anyone go was when in the previous class a speaker brought cans of coke, so we were all asking to go. They never did that again.

This is disappointing but not surprising.

[Progress]

72. Not to defend the school but...

Assuming that the kids have opportunities between classes to use the bathroom - and that's an important assumption - I really don't see this policy as terrible as long as reasonable exceptions are made. Remember, the policy doesn't say that the kids can only use the restroom 15 times a month. It says that they can only go during class 15 times a month (which has about 20 school days). If all students are using the restroom between classes and only using the during-class passes for emergencies, it doesn't seem all that unreasonable. You can't have kids going to the bathroom constantly during classes. I think the part about not consuming liquids is just silly. Now if the breaks between classes are not enough time for everyone to have a chance to use the restroom, or if the classes are too long for students that age to be expected to hold out between bathroom breaks, then perhaps the school schedule needs to be changed. These are middle school kids after all, not elementary.

[LeahMira]

75. The article isn't clear about...

... whether or not students have free time between classes or during their lunch period to use the bathroom. Generally, schools allow enough time between classes to take care of getting books from lockers, changing for gym, and/or going to the bathroom, but try not to allow too much time for "socializing." Agreed, though, that no one should be forced to go all day. These are kids, not camels!

[trackfan]

78. I was too afraid of getting beaten up to use the bathroom

in Jr. High and High school...or of being forced to smoke a cigarette, or take drugs or something. And, according to the films they showed us, one puff of a cigarette, and I would probably end up a heroin addict in a few years and have to go through horrible withdrawl symptoms someday. So I stayed out of the bathrooms.

[Sabriel]

79. Do as I say...

...not as I do. I'm guessing the "school officials" can go use the bathroom just about any time they feel like it, as often as they like. At the two urban high schools I taught at, teachers were required to keep students in class and not let them use the bathroom except during the 4 minute passing periods (bathrooms were actually locked during class). Consequently, you had about 25-30 girls trying to use four stalls in the space of that time. If that's not dehumanizing, I don't know what is.

[Must_B_Free]

80. Everyone start doing it in your pants.

that rule will change quickly

[DemBones DemBones]

91. What? They're allowed to get out of class 15 times a month?

THAT is ridiculous. I guarantee some of them will use all 15 hall passes every month and it's unlikely they're even going to the bathroom. They want to get out of class to walk the halls, peek in doors at friends in class, etc.

What's with all the sympathy for these "poor, mistreated kids"?

Obviously, most of you haven't taught, but from just reading the first lines of posts, it sounds as if many never went to school, never tried the scams we all did.

Imagine a school with, say, fifty classrooms. Imagine fifty kids out of class on hall passes at one time. Imagine the trouble fifty kids could start if they felt like it, and imagine the uproar if they did. A gang of boys rapes a girl. A gang of boys beats up a boy. Gangs of girls fight. One girl knifes another. Gangs of boys fight. One boy shoots another. Boys and girls have sex under the stairs, in a janitor's closet, etc. Groups of students engage in drug sales, buys, and use, or they pass a bottle of vodka around. This stuff actually happens. And, whenever such incidents are discovered, the parents angrily ask, "Why wasn't the school keeping those kids in class?"

"Gotta go to the bathroom" is a vastly overused line among students. Always was, always will be. It is probably true about 0.001 % of the time.

Middle school and high school kids should never get out of class to go to the bathroom. They should go during breaks between classes. If they're lucky, they'll grow up to get jobs where they can go to the bathroom pretty much whenever they choose. People who work on production lines can't. Cashiers can't. Teachers can't. Surgeons can't. No doubt there are others whose job requires them to work for hours without a bathroom break.

Don't tell your kids to pee on the floor. Tell them to go to the bathroom between classes. If that makes them tardy, they'll likely get detention if they accumulate too many tardies. Big deal. If they pee on the floor, they're behaving very badly and will be punished accordingly. If they weren't punished, I'd worry about the school.

[Pithlet]

93. The case we're talking about

the kids aren't allowed to go between classes. Those 15 times a month is all the get.

But, beside that, school isn't work. Kids aren't adults. I really don't see the need to create a work like environment in every aspect. It will become obvious which kids are abusing the "privilege".

Going to the bathroom isn't like eating or drinking. The need can come on strong for people, and suddenly, particularly when you're still growing. You can't always go when designated. It's a ridiculous restriction, and has no place in schools. These kids aren't surgeons or line workers. If they have accidents, they will be humiliated. I know, because it happened to me. The kind of "female" accident that is particularly embarrassing, because I had a teacher who was strict about that sort of thing, and I was too embarrassed to tell him why I had to go. These kids are not employees.