What defines a true "conservative"?

[T Roosevelt]

I'm in another email debate with some friends. They consider themselves republicans, though I don't know that they truly understand why. Anyway, I sent them to the http://www.presidentmatch.com and low and behold their candidate was *.

But I believe there's a disconnect between * and true conservatives, and began trying to figure out what makes a conservative. Here is my initial thought and response:

Look, I don't have a problem with conservative issues - I happen to agree with many of them. What I do have a problem with is the people in this administration claiming to be conservative when they are clearly aren't.

True conservatives are fiscally responsible and do not believe in imperialistic foreign policy. True conservatives stand by the separation of church and state. True conservatives do not support invasion of privacy, nor do they accept that civil rights must be sacrificed in the name of security. True conservatives believe in smaller government.

Yet when you look at the last three years, Bush can claim NONE of these things. The deficit and national debt are out of control (congratulations, we just surpassed 7 TRILLION in debt with no end in sight). We have invaded a country that clearly WAS NOT a threat to the United States, and was barely a threat to its neighbors. Today we are witnessing an assault on church-state separation, which would be humorous if it weren't so troubling, since this is the very thing "we" decry in Islamic countries. The Patriot Act ignores the Constitution, and would not have prevented 9/11. The necessary tools were already in place, and if somebody in the administration had been paying attention (rather than ignoring things for the first 9 months), perhaps 9/11 could have been prevented. And finally, government is actually LARGER now than it was at the end of the Clinton administration.


Am I off-base on this? I probably left out something on the environment, but what else is missing/incorrect?

[Blue-Jay]

1. A true conservative is flexible.

How else would you explain all of them walking around with their heads up their asses?

/silly

[4morewars]

3. I laughed out loud at that Blue-Jay !!!

A real guffaw !!!! I can't wait to use it !!!
:yourock:

[waylon]

2. Ive made similar arguments...

Im always accused of taking liberties with the facts. Exaggeration seems to be the tool of rebuttal.

Make good points, thats all you can do.

[trotsky]

4. Sounds like you nailed all the facts.

Which means, of course, they will either not reply, or claim you're just a "Bush hater."

[onehandle]

5. Selfishness. nt

[T Roosevelt]

6. I'm trying to differentiate between

conservatives, republicans, and neoconservatives. I don't know that selfishness is conservative - it may be more the other two...

[Blue-Jay]

8. Actually, I think you nailed it.

They're MEpublicans, for the most part. Think about it:

Tax cut: YAY! Me me me me!
Health Care: What the..?!? Not ME! I have insurance. Fuck those "other" people!

and so on......

It's patently selfish and short-sighted. Really, how hard is it to understand that the nation and it's people are more important than an extra few bucks in your pocket?

If I may quote the great philosopher, Mister Spock: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. (yeah, I'm a geek, but it's rarely been said better than that, so shut up) :P

[Bandit]

7. I think being moralistic is a prime requisite

Every Conservative I know is quite sanctimonious. Also I believe the capacity for hypocrisy has to be high.

[Hammie]

9. A true political conservative

Is one who believes in a very strict reading of the constitution. They tend favor strong local government and a limited federal government. They would agree that state funded welfare programs are legal (depending on the state constitution) even if they don't happen to agree with them, but become apoplectic at the thought of the same program implemented by the federal government. They are most likely to self identify with the Libertarian party.

I would say you have a better change of running into a communist than a true conservative. The latter seem to prefer living in sparsely populated western states.

[denverbill]

10. Before you define what a conservative believes in, you have to

define conservatism itself.

The dictionary definition and the definition commonly used in political science is that conservatives favor the status quo, liberals favor progressive change, reactionaries wish to revert to previously existing conditions, and radicals want major, rapid change.

Because conservatives exist across ALL spectrums (there are liberals in Iran's fundamentalist clergy, and there were conservatives in the USSR's Politburo), you must first define the circumstances. The founding fathers of the US were among the most liberal thinkers in the world at the time, but modern conservatives don't reject their thinking as 'liberal' now, because what was liberal in 1789 is commonly accepted by almost every conservative in the US today.

A conservative in 1776 wanted to remain with Britain. Liberals (more appropriately, radicals) wanted to split with Britain.

After the war, conservatives wanted an American monarch. Liberals favored democracy.

Before the civil war, conservatives supported slavery. Liberals wanted it ended.

No conservative in his right mind now supports reunification under a British king today, or supports monarchy over democracy, or supports slavery.

[wadestock]

11. Historically.....

You don't have to look much past the 1900s to the present...

As our country moved into the industrial age, republicans became affiliated with and championed business.

Democrats began to increasingly take a stand for unions and the worker to counter the obvious unfairness that was growing in a capitalistic industrialized society.

The most significant move by the democrats after the great depression was to champion the progressive tax system. Few understand the importance of this. During the depression the problem was analogous in some ways to what is happening today....too much money was going to the top....only back then it especially stifled cash flow at the bottom.

The progressive tax system in combination with government programs IS the appropriate formula for a capitalistic system.

A capitalistic system, by its very design, moves money to the top....it is a statistical inevitability. The progressive tax not only moderates/controls this self-destructive nature of capitalism but it provides for a healthy middle class and reduces the potential gulf between the rich and the poor. A healthy middle class is GOOD for business. Try to explain this to a ditto head.

Now enter Ronald Reagan.
This was the final chapter to redefine an ideology.
Up till this point the GOP was searching for legitimate ideals. If you're not for the working man....what exactly can you champion?

Reagan put together a new neat and sugar coated message. You earn the money....you deserve to keep it.
Translation....the rich get the money and the capitalistic system goes into tilt mode. The profit making turned up looked good at first.

Enter new corporate ethics, strategies for corporate profit making that don't include concern for the people, buyouts, mergers, etc....and a development of a culture of unethical capitalism.....all quite happily endorsed as nirvana by the new breed of Reaganites.

You don't necessarily have to blame Reagan but the Limbaughs et al that jumped on this bandwagon and notched it up to the level of the absurd. 25 years later, we have striking evidence of a capitalistic system that is out of control, with its public living beyond its means and corporations by and large not serving the interests of the people.

But to specifically answer your question...the average republican doesn't really stand for anything. They endorse capitalism and business...but they don't understand how to make "good" business.

Here's a rough approximation of what the real Republican base consists of:

25% anti-abortionists, gun nuts, and generally anyone considered macho/country lovin knuckle head that simply doesn't have the time to listen to reason. Don't you god dam liberals tell me what to do.
Actually many of these

50% truly believe that Reagan and Limbaugh is correct, that pure profits and growth are the only true outputs of a capitalistic society. These are hard working Americans that generally like the American work ethic and don't want anyone to get a "free ride".

25% money loving, unpatriotic scum bags that want to use the system to further themselves doing anything they can possibly squeeze out of it. They'd sell the country itself (and are in the process of doing it) if it meant an extra buck in their pocket.

[proud patriot]

12. Taxes and Jobs

two main issues for my Grandparents who are
life long republicans .

They will not be voting for bush.

[denverbill]

13. Would a Republican approve a tax increase to ban abortion?

Personally, I bet if it came down to paying higher taxes and banning abortion, they'd vote with their wallets.